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IFLY_INDIGO
25th Feb 2015, 06:24
Recently, I had a sim session and handled a windshear exercise immediately after T/O. Airspeed went way above S momentarily while I was maintaining FD.

After completion of the session, Instruction debriefed that I should have retracted the slats/flaps to prevent damage to them.

In my opinion, FD guidance will adjust accordingly to prevent such speed excursion, so I shouldn't retract the slats/flaps and stick to the written procedure.

We entered into windshear immediately after take-off - red WINDSHEAR warning with audio.

Speed excursion was momentary. Speed decreased below S after the excursion. So we were NOT out of windshear, the time when Instructor wished I should have retracted the S/F

I wish to know if you had similar experiences and your useful opinion

Deejaypee
25th Feb 2015, 06:35
No, not until clear of shear and at a safe altitude

Capn Bloggs
25th Feb 2015, 06:56
so I shouldn't retract the slats/flaps and stick to the written procedure.
Good idea. Ask Bloggs what he would suggest you do if, after having rectracted said flaps/slats (and probably not damaging them) you then suddenly fly into the opposite tailwind shear. Extend them? :rolleyes:

Exascot
25th Feb 2015, 07:19
Maintain configuration.

vilas
25th Feb 2015, 07:22
IFLY_INDIGO
There is dilemma here because you mustn't change configuration that is definite but you should not damage your flaps. The correct and safe way of saving the flaps is to fly above the flight directors to convert speed into height and when the speed trend reverses again fly the FDs. This might get you out of wind shear itself. This is airbus recommended procedure.

UK019
25th Feb 2015, 07:25
I suggest you might like to ask the Instructor to show you the data on the aircraft’s windshear response that he/she has produced, which overrides that produced by the aircraft manufacturer who designed it (aided by massively powerful computers and very clever people) the aerodynamicists who wind-tunnel tested it, and the Regulatory Authorities who certified it.

He or she must be one very wise person if they are able to debunk the universal industry-standard procedure – to NOT reconfigure in windshear. Very impressive …. :ugh:

LH398
25th Feb 2015, 07:25
FD will not prevent flap speed exceedance

C_Star
25th Feb 2015, 07:32
Isn't the speed increase a sign that the wind shear is over? Ok, there may be a second speed loss etc. but at some point one finally has to resume normal ops...

I would also be careful about pitching up above the FD. IIRC SRS w/s recovery mode limits the pitch to 22 degrees (or thereabouts) pitching significantly higher than that could put the a/c in an undesired energy state...

Also, a minor flap over speed is no drama - wings won't fall off...

skyhighfallguy
25th Feb 2015, 07:34
at first blush I thought you did the correct thing, then I realized if you had gotten your speed and altitude and had escaped the windshear, then you should start to clean up.

so, what altitude and what airspeed were you ?

and when did you start cleaning up?

For example, if you were over 1000' agl and in a normal climb profile, maybe you should have started the flaps up.

So, we really need quite a bit more info.

Australopithecus
25th Feb 2015, 07:51
We had a similar scenario last year followed by some casual opinions about retracting flaps during a huge speed excursion.

My attitude towards that is they make flap components every day. Microbursts less than once a career.

F and S speeds are weight dependant. Placard speeds are not, but even there some statistical margin exists.

Dufo
25th Feb 2015, 07:53
Potential flap damage due to slight overspeed is minimal compared to fuselage contact with ground due to loss of control.

Clandestino
25th Feb 2015, 07:56
This is your captain Obvious speaking: universal procedure is to maintain config until absolutely sure you have escaped windshear.

I find option "Find more posts by" quite useful.

UK019
25th Feb 2015, 08:22
Clandestino

I find option "Find more posts by" quite useful.

Y-e-e-s, I see exactly what you mean ....

vilas
25th Feb 2015, 09:02
Rapid speed increase is not a sign of being out of shear only sign of wind direction/speed change. That's what windshear is And there is no guarantee it will be little overspeed. It happens in SIM and what I stated is how Airbus teaches.

Microburst2002
25th Feb 2015, 09:32
That is a case of negative training!!!

The procedure is very specific. Passing S speed is not a command for retraction in a windshear. Exceeding VFE, that is a different story.

The procedure says, DO NOT CHANGE CONFIGURATION (SLATS/FLAPS, GEAR) UNTIL OUT OF SHEAR

Were you out of shear? Oh, and also you don't have to retract flaps/slats when passing S speed in case of turbulence, you can delay that 20 kt or VFE -5 kt, If I recall correctly. That situation was, at least, turbulence.

and at the end: RECOVER SMOOTHLY TO NORMAL CLIMB OUT OF SHEAR

Stick to the memory items until out of shear. Speed increasing very fast towards VFE, with imminent penetration in overspeed, then you can continue with the "normal" climb: THR CLB, retract slats/flaps (and don't forget L/G if that is the case!).

Some say retarding thrust is the last, but it is not written anywhere. The primary thing here (after avoiding crashing into terrain) is not to exceed a limitation.

Amadis of Gaul
25th Feb 2015, 11:47
Dear-oh-dear...

vilas
25th Feb 2015, 13:42
The question is whether you are out of wind shear. If not leave that LVR CLB flashing, flaps, gear everything as it is. You can control speed by pitching just above the FD. You should not bring the thrust levers back unless out of it. Another thing is what was the acceleration altitude. If it was low as 800ft. then in any case you will have to ignore the FD once SRS changes to CLB and pitch up to keep climbing because FDs will come down to give you acceleration .

Skyjob
25th Feb 2015, 14:48
A subtle note to your training provider regarding the accuracy of the mentioned trainer's point of view would be a suggestion.
It:

Clears up the answer in their response
Highlights the accuracy of the trainer's knowledge
Prevents further anomalies to be instructed on this subject to other crew

safetypee
25th Feb 2015, 16:01
The industry standard, based on extensive research and manufacturers input, is to retain the existing configuration; AC 00-54 (www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC00-54.pdf).

If there is a guidance system, AP or FD, then use it. The manufacturer’s certification tests should have considered speed excursions during certification, i.e. probability of flap exceedance vs damage, or likelihood of encountering such a gross speed deviation vs the survivability in such a severe encounter.

In this (Windshear-Encounter) (www.scribd.com/doc/187870289/Windshear-Encounter ) the crew followed the required recovery procedure (no computed guidance) and survived. Also, note that the FDR analysis showed that this actual encounter was very similar to the FAA simulated training model which was based on the infamous DFW accident.

Also see https://www.scribd.com/doc/232325774/Windshear

NigelOnDraft
25th Feb 2015, 16:44
Recently, I had a sim session and handled a windshear exercise immediately after T/O. Airspeed went way above S momentarily while I was maintaining FD.

In my opinion, FD guidance will adjust accordingly to prevent such speed excursion, so I shouldn't retract the slats/flaps and stick to the written procedureFollowing the FD "in windshear" can mean a number of things. Was the Windshear encounter determined by the Windshear Warning (in which case FD gives appropriate guidance)? Or "pilot assessed", when you just get normal SRS commands?

You then have the Aa issue, where the FD might change to CLB, but if still in windshear, it might be inappropriate to follow it.

Bottom line though is if you have not yet clearly communicated between the crew that you are clear of the shear, and adopted an acceleration profile, then you maintain config from my training.

IFLY_INDIGO
25th Feb 2015, 17:10
clarification for better response:
We entered into windshear immediately after take-off - red WINDSHEAR warning with audio.
Speed excursion was momentary. Speed decreased below S after the excursion. So we were NOT out of windshear when instructor wished I should have retracted the S/F

OhNoCB
25th Feb 2015, 17:55
Similar to what was mentioned before, stick shaker just after takeoff because you got an airspeed loss after previously having a gain and retracting flaps is not a nice idea at all. Would much rather exceed flap limits and deal with whatever that might bring (IMO probably nothing unless something really weird is happening).

As an anecdote, a company I previously worked for (flying something single pilot and lighter) had a pilot who for over a year didn't know what the limiting speeds for the first couple of stages of flap, and exceeded them probably numerous times a week until he finally did the same thing on an OPC.

Intruder
25th Feb 2015, 19:17
Recently, I had a sim session and handled a windshear exercise immediately after T/O. Airspeed went way above S momentarily while I was maintaining FD.

After completion of the session, Instruction debriefed that I should have retracted the slats/flaps to prevent damage to them.
Did your debrief discussion include a review of the written procedure? What does it say? Was his assertion in line with, or contrary to, the written procedure?

In general, as others have said, the windshear escape maneuver is done with NO configuration change other than retracting speedbrakes, if extended. There is likely NO note that says to retract flaps if the airspeed momentarily exceeds the current flap speed during the shear. One reason is that the airspeed is likely to reduce to BELOW the safety speed for retracted flaps, BEFORE they are even fully retracted!

IF the instructor's assertion was contrary to the written procedure, you should make a written report to the training center for which he works, reporting his contradiction of written procedure.

While the windshear is occurring, flap damage is NOT your primary concern -- staying out of the dirt is! Don't make up procedures, or allow bad instructors to lead you into made-up procedures! Does your procedure tell you to follow the FD, or to pitch to a certain limit (e.g., pitch angle or stick shaker)?

OK465: ESPECIALLY immediately after takeoff, retracting flaps is NOT a good idea. The momentary speed excursion is VERY likely to reverse; and if the flaps are retracted, stall is MUCH more likely. While there MIGHT be a valid discussion in some airplanes regarding flap position vs climb performance (e.g., FLAPS 10 vs FLAPS 20 in the 747), there is a MUCH higher likelihood of a WRONG change being made in the heat of the moment.

ImbracableCrunk
25th Feb 2015, 19:36
Flap exceedence is an easier write-up than an obituary. Your instructor sounds like he has too much time in the cubicles thinking of minutiae.

JammedStab
26th Feb 2015, 04:22
Exactly. You don't care about your flap limitations when in a windshear situation close to the ground. You try to prevent the crash and worry about flap speed exceedences later which will most likely have not caused any damage anyways.

Once safely clear of the windshear worry about configuration.

Microburst2002
26th Feb 2015, 04:42
Also remember that S speed is not the only condition for retracting. The trend arrow should be showing acceleration and if you are in turbulence, you may delay retraction 20 kt or VFE-5 kt. If trend is erratic, you are in turbulence and speed may well go below S again.

If on top of that you have a RWS going on, man… The procedure is crystal clear.

You had some negative training that day. It happens from time to time.

stilton
26th Feb 2015, 06:46
Windshear, fly escape maneuver, maintain configuration, end of discussion.

Clandestino
26th Feb 2015, 11:06
The guidance to not change configuration is a one-size-fits-all, current best practices remedy to prevent potential misjudged aggravation of any windshear situation, but I don't think anyone would ever claim that there are not isolated instances where a change of configuration might improve end game flight margins. Staunch procedural guys can gasp and tsk-tsk all they want hereTrue, but currently the only technology available to identify such cases is hindsight. Might change with lidars coupled to performance computers but the time passing between Ueberlingen and TCAS 7.1 gives me no reason to be optimistic.

Private jet
26th Feb 2015, 11:15
I know nothing about Airbus's but purely from an airmanship point of view Id suggest that your instructor/checker doesn't know what he's talking about. Frightening actually.

nick14
26th Feb 2015, 19:39
Boeing procedures is to not change configuration and I belive that is mainly due to the fact that things moving in an airstream produce more drag than stationary things.

If flown properly and the thrust managed you should not exceed any limits however it's not deadly if you do, retracting the high lift devices against the manufacturers recommendation based on a fear of breaking them is ludicrous. Let me ask you this, how long do they take to retract, do you have any hope that they would have fully retracted before the exceedance occurs.

Our procedures require f5 takeoffs and to get the LE devices in would require the selection of flaps up, not sensible considering large speed variations and the time it would take.

BARKINGMAD
26th Feb 2015, 21:49
Stator vane

With 26 years in civil aviation, may I wholeheartedly endorse your comments, though my slightly more graphic remarks yesterday evening obviously offended the mod(s) and were excised!!!

There are too many 'trainers' out there who vary from being an irritation during OPC/LPC checks to those who are positively dangerous, leaving ordinary capable line dogs demoralized and sometimes confused on points of technique or procedure.

How often have I heard the question " WHO told you THAT?" etc etc

And some in these fora have the effrontery to criticise other cultures' training regimes whils the most appalling rubbish gets pushed in EASA supervised & approved airlines! :ugh:

haejangkuk
26th Feb 2015, 22:41
IFLY INDIGO...CONGRATULATIONS! You must have aced the totally unexpected and extremely worst case windshear scenario that your instructor was utterly gobsmacked that he only wanted to bring you a few notches down.

There are many Alteon instructors like that. If you do so well in a check item, they will come up with very devious " shock and awe " failures to make you sweat and puff. Just KNOW that you had the best of him/her, come away with a glow and a smile!:ok:

Rocket3837
26th Feb 2015, 23:26
Use SPD brakes

tdracer
26th Feb 2015, 23:41
Though I'm not a pilot, to me changing aircraft configuration in the middle of a windshear defies common sense.

If it were me, I think I'd respond to the instructor something to the effect of "I've always been taught to not change configuration during a windshear upset, could you please provide a reference for this 'new to me' procedure so I can investigate further?"

babotika
26th Feb 2015, 23:57
S speed is not a limitation, it is the lowest speed at which you can select flap 0. Many have already posted the obvious, that changing configuration is a dangerous, ridiculous idea.

Some things I have done with sudden speed increases associated with windshear:

1. Convert the momentary speed increase into altitude, i.e. pull up above the FD demand. Be careful not to overdo it though.
2. Momentarity reduce the thrust a little, to approx 65-75% N1, if you're aboslutely sure that the speed trend is positive and you are going to overspeed. You can always put the thrust back on quickly, something you can't do if you start retracting slats. Obviously don't go anywhere near idle as it would take longer to get max thrust back.

Finally, as has already been mentioned a 10-15kts overspeed won't break the wings off whereas impacting the ground will.

RAT 5
27th Feb 2015, 08:32
I would go for the 'speed for height' exchange as well. It's all about energy management and survival. Do you consider raising the gear as a change of configuration? I would allow that as the increase in performance might just save the day. Some say that ground impact would be softened with gear down, but with it retracted it might not happen at all. You choose.

NigelOnDraft
27th Feb 2015, 10:31
Windshear recovery is solely about Energy Management. The Windshear has the potential to render your current PE + KE inadequate for flight i.e. KE to keep flying leaves PE as underground :{

The way I see it, your aims:

ADD as much Energy as possible = Full Power, no speedbrake
OPTIMISE your KE v PE balance, essentially means keep KE close to, but above minimum speed which equates to max PE (Height) - negative PE is not good for your health
Refinements such as gear up, more flap might, with hindsight, save the day, but you need a simple reliable drill.

If following the FD leads you to have excess speed, either:

The FD is not giving you the correct Windshear profile = ignore/deselect it, pull nose higher for PE v KE
The Windshear is significant, and the "gain" you are seeing may well be reversed - it is not a "good" sign

Zippy Monster
27th Feb 2015, 14:27
RAT 5 - retracting the gear will open the gear doors and add a whole lot of extra drag just when you don't need it. We are told to leave it well alone and I agree.

skyhighfallguy
27th Feb 2015, 15:30
windshear escape must be predicated on KISS

(kiss: keep it simple stupid).

IF you want to get fancy and go against KISS, you could turn off the bleeds and generators and get more thrust from the engine. Not many of us could do that while trying to fly the plane, so KISS.

An overspeed, but otherwise successful windshear escape maneuver, is a success. But certainly, once clear of windshear, clean up and throttle back.

Denti
27th Feb 2015, 17:08
@Zippy, that depends on type. On the 737 the gear doors are already open anyway.

But, as pointed out above, it is a KISS example across types and therefore it probably is better to keep to the basics and simply fly out of it before worrying about configuration.

safetypee
27th Feb 2015, 18:09
NOD, energy management might not be as simple as you imply (#40). Depending on the type of detection and guidance system, the form of energy management could be proportional to height above ground.
With relatively large ground clearance (according to aircraft, excess energy, etc) the guidance system is biased towards higher speeds to help transit the shear, whilst still climbing.
As height reduces, speed is traded for climb to maintain ground clearance; in some systems airspeed is traded such that at ‘ground contact’ airspeed=Vs.

An optimised guidance system should not exceed flap limit speeds, but could exceed retraction speeds. These aspects are not assured as many windshears can induce large and rapid speed reversals where the guidance / aircraft are incapable of reacting in such a short time.

In the previously linked incident (no guidance system), the crew were required to make rapid attitude changes – some significantly lower than expected, just to maintain their target airspeed (Vref). The focus of their attention was attitude and speed with little or no capability to consider anything else. The Captain was one of the most experienced on the aircraft type and in the operating environment.

Those who wish to discuss how to handle a shear immediately after take-off might consider why the conditions relating to shear were not identified before take-off.

Avenger
27th Feb 2015, 18:47
Forgive me for copy paste of the systems manual, but...Firstly the original poster basically asked if the sim instructor was correct.. in short No
Secondly, a well posted this is an " escape manoeuvre " not an exercise in advanced airmanship..
Boeing and Airbus have developed the shortest format of the tried and tested procedures in the QRH, on the whole, the automatic guidance systems do a better job than us, excepted autopilot struggles..
Of course, in dire straits if the system is not giving us what we want ( for some unknown reason), we are pilots, just do the best we can.
Changing the configuration by raising the gear will result in more drag as the whole wheel well is exposed, equally , raising flaps changes the stall indication logic and during flap transit the signals are unreliable ( there is a Boeing memo on this regarding false stall warnings)
KIS
"If windshear is encountered during F/D takeoff or go–around, the F/D pitch command bar provides commands to maintain the target speed until vertical speed decreases to approximately +600 fpm. At this point, the F/D pitch bar commands a 15 degree nose–up pitch attitude. If vertical speed continues to decrease, the F/D continues to command a 15 degree pitch attitude until a speed of approximately stick shaker is reached. It then commands pitch attitudes which result in intermittent activation of the stick shaker. As the airplane transits the windshear condition, the F/D programming reverses. As climb rate increases above approximately +600 fpm, the F/D commands pitch attitudes which result in
acceleration back to the target speed. The A/P and F/D both operate in a similar manner during A/P or F/D go–around."

deptrai
27th Feb 2015, 19:41
Changing the configuration by raising the gear will result in more drag as the whole wheel well is exposed, equally , raising flaps that's a lot of interesting things I know nothing about. however in a windshear situation applying max available thrust and focus on flying the aircraft instead of worrying about changing the configuraturation, with possibly minimal benefits sounds like the right thing to do. A and B a/c have very impressive thrust to weight ratios. Whoever is making up their own procedures, against manufacturers recomendations, is probably thinking of some light a/c

No Fly Zone
1st Mar 2015, 11:41
I must agree with most, DeeJayPee said it short and tight. I'll expand a little:

Windshear at low levels can and will kill you. In a W/S event the ONLY thing that you really want is increased (stable) forward speed... deal with the other details later. If, during your recovery, you happen to over-speed a particular flap setting, Mx will inspect and repair as necessary. (That may be a huge job, but it is better than buying a new airframe and/or paying the death claims, including yours.) Put differently, during a low-level W/S event, your sole, ONLY ficus should be on FLYING your airplane - and keeping it flying. What is more important? Firewall the SOB, override everything within your control and pray that you get get enough thrust, soon enough to keep your bird flying. If you have some ability to exceed TOGA, use it, now. The alternative may be a tombstone suggesting that "...he preserved the flaps and slats, but killed himself and 150+ others...)

W/S at low level is never a joke. IMO only, safest course out is a LOT more forward speed and perhaps increasing speed. Whatever you need to do or can do to achieve that speed, quickly, is easily worth the cost of a part or two that you may damage, to and including the little blocks that stop the thrust levers and the forward extreme. Other than for terrain, you cannot turn and all you want is higher forward speed, eventually giving you the ability to stay level or climb. IN the first few seconds, the back-hanging flaps may help you. Once you have achieved a secure manuvering speed, probably well above minimum, consider cleaning up a little, adjusting your makeup, changing your shorts etc. Until you have recovered significant forward speed, NOTHING else matters.
Some may blast my direct approach and that's OK. I remind them that forward speed, air passing over that wing fast enough to provide some degree of lift is your only instant concern. After than is achieved and you have verified positive control, perhaps you can consider adjusting those little extras on your wing or even the thrust.
without significant forward speed you will not fly. If you are in the air, ,but not flying, the ground will approach, probably sooner than you would like.
The take home: If W/S is known or suspected, and RW length permits, stay hot, land with power on and be ready to goose it. If other conditions do not permit such a landing, let's hope you have planned a reasonable alternate: bug out and find a different slab... Opinions can and do differ. With fuel available, I cannot imagine making a second approach into known W/S conditions; I'm gone. :ugh:

vilas
1st Mar 2015, 13:42
I FLY INDIGO
your question was would you retract flaps when speed is increasing in wind shear. I told you Airbus procedure. I further give you a quote from their safety magazine. Changing configuration is a non standard not recommended dangerous procedure.
Recovery technique for wind shear encounter


The aircraft can only survive severe wind shear encounters if it has enough energy to carry it through the loss-of-performance period. It can sustain this energy level in the following three ways:


• Carry extra speed. The aircraft does this automatically when in approach in managed speed (Ground speed mini).


• Add maximum thrust. The aircraft does this automatically with alpha floor protection, even if TOGA was already selected (do not forget to disconnect the Auto thrust in this case, when out of alpha floor).


• If possible, trade height energy for speed. Any aircraft can do this.

Lantirn
1st Mar 2015, 13:45
Noflyzone,

Forward speed is important but most important is keeping your AOA at CLmax. That is fly high pitch, respect PLI and stall warning, and for the Airbus guys fly SRS or 17,5 deg otherwise. This in reasonable limits of speed of course. You don't pitch for speed otherwise you'll convert the aircraft in a submarine when in the negative side of a microburst.

See delta crash. They crashed with a lot of forward speed...

And no, don't touch the flaps, cause they keep you flying. If you think that you can remove some flaps due to speed, think that in the next seconds you might not have that speed!

Anyway, pilots fly memo items. Those procedures are written after a lot of crashes

Cheers

SkullFlyer
29th Dec 2015, 01:06
For me, there is no discussion about this. DO NOT CHANGE THE CONFIGURATION. That's what the manuals say. The instructor was wrong.
Worry about an assumed damage in the flaps while you are passing through a low level windshear ?
This sounds stupid to me.

Flyman35
29th Dec 2015, 06:51
Thanks for sharing those valuable links :D

john_tullamarine
29th Dec 2015, 08:34
Some interesting, if concerning, comments and suggestions.

Keep in mind that, for an event such as ..

Speed excursion was momentary. Speed decreased below S after the excursion

... the airspeed system is not as reliable as normally observed. Works pretty well in steady state conditions which parallel the calibration data ..

At the end of the day, one trusts in the historical probabilities and research .. most times you win, very occasionally, you lose.

Winging things on the day is not all that useful in general practice ..

Best practice guidance is to follow the OEM's recommended practice ...

Microburst2002
29th Dec 2015, 10:12
Windshear procedure is something we do when we are at a too low energy state, while we wait for the energy to come back. And it sure that it is going to come back. It is like we are surrounded by too many indians throwing arrows at us, but the cavalry is coming anytime. The game is not to die stupidly before the cavalry arrives.

The only thing that matters is not to lose altitude. Speed or any other thing is totally irrelevant during that time. Once the energy comes back, then you continue normally, retracting flaps and all.

Uplinker
29th Dec 2015, 11:44
Don't think about it, just do the memory drill ! DO NOT INVENT YOUR OWN PROCEDURES.

For example, as many have said, raising the gear adds drag, and moving any hydraulic item such as gear or flaps puts extra load on the engine driving the hyd pump.

Lots of folk at the manufacturers have spent time working out what is best to do in any situation, and their test pilots have flown each procedure and refined it so that the average line pilot can fly it safely.

As many have said, ask the instructor to show you where in the company or aircraft manuals what s/he says is written down. Or ask your chief instructor to clarify the procedure and when they ask you why, tell them what you were told and by whom.

Amadis of Gaul
30th Dec 2015, 15:03
Ah, yes, The Training Department Brainiac strikes again! Every airline has a few...

bugged on the right
1st Jan 2016, 06:49
All the types I operated as an FE had the same windshear procedures. Maintain configuration and fly out. I would monitor that very carefully. I was bollocked once for exceeding engine limitations in a windshear exercise in the box. Informed that I had overboosted the engines. I told the instructor that I was unrepentant and in the real case I would have my size 9s behind the throttles. No point not using what you've got if you are still descending.

misd-agin
2nd Jan 2016, 01:39
Reduce power? Dumb idea. You need energy. That comes from high thrust.

If the speed is still increasing convert that to altitude gained. Beware of possible high pitch attitude and subsequent need to lower the nose, perhaps faster than normal.

Retract flaps at S? At low altitude in a w/s event? The instructor who said that should be fired.

Vfe is the planned limit. Approaching that increase pitch for altitude (2nd paragraph).

You can exceed Vfe. Not converting into altitude is as dumb as just watching the overspeed. Momentary can happen. Staying in an overspeed situation isn't flying the a/c correctly.

In a severe overspeed maintaining configuration and diverting with that flap setting might deserve consideration. Didn't a 737 overspeed do a g/a @AMS, retract the flaps, and then couldn't extend the flaps for the subsequent landing? Decisions, decisions...

You can, might, or will, lose altitude. That is the huge unknown. Keeping flying, and avoiding ground contact, are the goals. Not losing altitude is not a goal. It is at the whim of the wx gods at that momentum if a max performing a/c is still descending.

vilas
2nd Jan 2016, 07:23
This discussion was prompted by a remark of ignorant TRI. Windshear is a well researched subject and has established procedures. Any modifications from that is fraught with danger and definitely beyond the perview of a line pilot. Not changing configuration due to increase in drag/reduction in lift is an established procedure. That doesn't mean you just watch excess speed destroy flaps. Why won't you take care of it by converting speed into height because the higher altitude may take you out of wind shear itself. If it doesn't then when the trend arrow reverses again fly the FD again.

RAT 5
2nd Jan 2016, 09:36
Why won't you take care of it by converting speed into height because the higher altitude may take you out of wind shear itself. If it doesn't then when the trend arrow reverses again fly the FD again.


And once again the circle is complete as the conversation comes round to SCAN. This subject has been beaten to death o many other threads. Where do you monitor the relevant performance data during W/S? VSI, IAS & ALT. The FD will have IAS & then go into ALT ACQ---ALT HLD, perhaps depending on MCP window. Guys are taught, in W/S, to "fly the flight director". Initially this can be good, but then what? Converting speed to height, carefully watching for the reversal; seems OK. Then how do you know you are clear of W/S. There might have been a grating voice saying "windshear, windshear," but there isn't one to tell you "clear of windshear, clear." So you have to become a real plot again. OMG!

vilas
4th Jan 2016, 10:37
Sustained improvement in energy level displayed by increase in speed or ROC is an indication that you are out of W/S. In AB AOA protection takes care of lower end of the speed scale you need to take care of higher end if you get ALT* by moving the thrust levers to climb. If not in ALT* then in SRS the FMGS will take care of even higher end by increasing ROC.

THR RED ACC
5th Jan 2016, 13:56
Maintain configuration.

May I suggest you report your SIM instructor to your company for giving misleading information. Just have a look at American Airline's misleading information regarding flying through wake turbulence which inadvertently led the crash in 2001. Had that instructor (cannot remember his name now, something Van something) had been reported for telling crews to use aggressive rudder during wake turbulence after T/O, the crash may not have happened!

FlightDetent
5th Jan 2016, 14:44
Harsh but true.

misd-agin
5th Jan 2016, 15:50
Just have a look at American Airline's misleading information regarding flying through wake turbulence which inadvertently led the crash in 2001. Had that instructor (cannot remember his name now, something Van something) had been reported for telling crews to use aggressive rudder during wake turbulence after T/O, the crash may not have happened!






If you're going to make up history at least provide the facts to support you false allegation.


Tape #1 was Dec 1997. 38:40
Tape #2 was Mar 1999. 48:53


Where should I start researching, for about the 3-5x, for the statements you allege were made?