Cabin crew ditches Captain.

[F-16GUY]

Mytteri på Norwegian-fly | Stand By - Morgennyheder til rejse-, hotel- og turistbranchen (http://www.standby.dk/mytteri-paa-norwegian-fly/)

According to this article (in danish), 4 out of 9 cabin crew disembarked the plane after a heated discussion with the captain about safety of the flight. Once they left, the captain chose to depart with only 5 cabin crew on board.

Will be interesting to know if the cabin crew had any valid arguments regarding the safety of the flight (from an operational perspective), and also if the continuation of the flight with only 5 cabin crew was legal?

[SlowAndSilly]

DOT should reject Norwegian Air's foreign air carrier application | TheHill (http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/labor/230764-dot-should-reject-norwegian-airs-foreign-air-carrier-application)

[citabria06g]

Aside from the weather, which I do believe should be flight crew's decision, does anyone else see something worrying?


Captain states "I am not from here, and I will not be stuck here", NAT entry time and airport closure approaching ==> get-there-itis
Captain and FO are both being line checked, TRE on board, TRE himself has to account for any delay to management ==> commercial pressure
Cabin crew have to do safety checks while cleaners are still onboard
Bad weather, with worsening trend
At night


Swiss cheese layers lining up? Luckily nothing wrong with the aircraft, but in an emergency how would this crew (as a whole, flight+cabin) perform?

[NigelOnDraft]

I would suggest, especially if you want the post to remain unmoderated, to edit it and remove the names ;)

I appreciate the link you offer contains the original text with names, but that in turn might be removed or edited.

[Hotel Tango]

There will be many sides to this story but it's an interesting CRM study. Of course we only have the one account here.

[Skeleton]

CRM debate aside and I agree the names should be removed but that "report" smacks of getting your defence in before the judge has asked any questions. I hope whoever released it into the public domain is not an employee of the airline, if they are I trust they will be looking for another job shortly.

[G.Green]

The captain should have called a 'time out' as soon as the first voice went into the high decibel range and conduct a tete-a-tete in the aft area of the cabin after the cleaners had finished. The purser then should have stated the crew's concerns and then the captain state his. Once everyone was on the same page and opinions either confirmed or modified a solution could have been easily found and acted on. How many of us have been in top gear trying to beat the weather? The captain only needs to engender a team spirit with the crew and it can be done.

[Juan Tugoh]

Only one side of the story given, but the captain lost the confidence of the crew. In that situation I, too would have walked off. My life is too important for any one job. This too, if reported correctly has echoes of the Tenerife North Jumbos accident.

[Hotel Tango]

I would imagine that it's been leaked by one of the ex employees involved. But why does that Captain's name ring a bell?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Chopper Tschopp!

[angels]

Yes, I'm very interested in F-16's original queries. How far can cabin crew go in determining whether or not a captain is safe to fly? How many cabin crew are legally required for a flight, is it 1 per 30 pax (say) or decided by plane type, etc.

I too, am a tad concerned about names being used on this sort of post. We are getting one side of an obviously quite bitter schism but despite the one-sided statement, it is leading to people making judgements and Monday morning quarterbacking.

[Climb360]

1 CA per 50 pax.

Anyway, shouldnt the title be "Captain ditches Cabin Crew"?

[Jetjock330]

Generally, 50 per door. Lose a crew on a door, you lose 50 seats (door inop then). Each cc that walks off, if each had a door, x50. This is in general with our widebodies.

Eventually you lose all crew and fly it like an empty freighter!

[F-16GUY]

Is that 1 per 50 seats or 1 per 50 passengers actually sitting in those seats?

And no, the title is right. The cabin crew left the captain (plane) - the captain (plane) did not leave the cabin crew....

[TowerDog]

When was the cabin crew qualified to give flying lessons to the cockpit?
Weather may look nasty out there, but it could still be safe and legal to fly despite what some drama-queens in the back may think.

That being said, the captain could have been a jerk and that could also cause cc to walk of the plane :rolleyes:

[panda-k-bear]

Is that 1 per 50 seats or 1 per 50 passengers actually sitting in those seats?

It's 1 per 50 revenue seats.

[MD83FO]

I had a sick CC once, she stayed in the hospital, and maintenance had 50 seats taped inop for dispatch. as per OM.

[FlyingChipmunk]

Monarch,
It is quite fantastic that your moniker suggests humility, not.
I would like to say that your kind is the sort I unfortunately have to put up with every now and then (rarely happens now in my company, which has worked hard to get rid of your sort) and when I am reminded that I am a JERK by your kind, I graciously employ my timely, extreme, sublime and unmatchable CRM skills to put your kind in place. There is a reason why CAPTAINS have to be jerks at certain moments....when the simple message does NOT get through.

I am a lurker here on Pprune but can't stand for obnoxiousness. Have your say mate but when you amplify your ideas and fly your flag as an FO advertising your perceptions of others whom you think are jerks, that's hard to swallow.

Come to Asia for another 2000hrs in the right seat and you will be ready for the LEFT anywhere in the world mate. Yes, an Aussie here in Asia for 5 years and still learning with respect.
And please do not take any of this offensively, we have a responsibility to keep our noses level and understand that all our CABIN CREW are neccessary assets, like it or not.

Good luck mate.

[ShotOne]

It's a little unsavoury that the reporter is happy to name names but prefers to remain anonymous themself. If the captain did in fact depart in weather below legal minima (that's the official met not someone's traffic report) he'll face serious comeback for doing so. The fact there's no mention suggests that wasn't the case.

[paparomeodelta]

Google translation from norwegian newspaper. Story covered in most Nordic media:
A heavy snowstorm in New York January 26 made many flights cancel their departures.
It concerned several cabin crew members on a Norwegian aircraft, there were from New York to Stockholm. Captain was however not agreed, that the plane should stay on earth.
Four cabin crew left therefore plane before departure whereupon captain headed for Sweden with four cabin crew missing, it writes the Norwegian newspaper Dagbladet.
Operational Director of the Norwegian Aviation Authority, Einar Schjølberg, calls episode illegal, since there were not enough flight attendants in the plane.
- That they fly with reduced crew is a violation of the law, and it is unacceptable, seeping he told Dagbladet.
He refers, that where, for example would not be enough staff to evacuate passagerne.
Norwegian confirms that plane -flew with four cabin crew missing but rejects, that it would be contrary to law.
- Captains decision to fly with five employees in the cabin live up to the requirement of one to 50 passengers, says Tomas Hesthammer, who is flychef in Norwegian.
They say however, that they have an internal investigation going.
Norwegian focuses more on the fact that cabin crew were against captains order.
- It is extremely unusual and serious, that cabin crew do not obey captain. He is the one with full overview of Situation, says Tomas Hesthammer.
The four crew members who left the plane, are now suspended.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

More here

Norwegian Tatl With Only 5 Cabin Crew — Civil Aviation Forum | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/6319099/)

[bigbird]

Be interesting to note whether the refuseniks were based in NY. Shouldn't be too long before this follows the previous thread to jetblast.

[bigbird]

Under US regs, one flight attendant required for each 50 Pax. not seats, but actual souls. Number of Paxs divided by 50 equals nbr of flight attendants. 52 Paxs would require 2 FAs.

[Faire d'income]

I can't speak for the B787 but while it is true to say that the CCM requirement is 1 per 50 and part thereof (e.g. 2 for 51 pax, 3 for 101 pax etc.) there is also usually an absolute minimum crew compliment for dispatch regardless of pax numbers (assuming it isn't empty).

As for the refuseniks, if they genuinely felt in danger then they were correct to leave the aircraft. However, assuming the absence of a specific violation to point to (e.g snow on the wings, out of hours etc), they immediately should seek a different career.

Calling the boss, and he most certainly is the boss, incompetent, unprofessional or reckless, requires a very good defence in any line of work. Accusing him/her of talking down to you, after you question his professional integrity, doesn't quite do it.

[RTO]

Under US regs, one flight attendant required for each 50 Pax. not seats, but actual souls. Number of Paxs divided by 50 equals nbr of flight attendants. 52 Paxs would require 2 FAs.
Dont you think they would have to follow the regs of their own flag of convenience?

[PT6Driver]

Surely the exact requirement depends the state of registration?
However all cabin crew /pax ratio I have come across relates to actual number of pax. As stated above 1 to 50.
Most aircraft and operators state a minimum number of cc. So anyone know what the policy of the operator is?

When it comes to things like security the cc are often in a hard place with the legal requirement to do it properly against company preasure for short turnarounds.

That said there are sadly a very small number who take great delight in doing very time consuming "thorough" searches for their own ends.

There is only one commander, he/she is not god but equally should be given the respect that that rank and position deserves. The line respect has to be earned has no place if this is the first time you have flown together. Suppose there is an issue just after you meet?
At this point we do not know the full story and I find it hard to belive that any captain would depart in this day and age with below minimum crewing.
Finally what did the FO have to say? If it was safety related I would have thought they would have had a vested intrest in raising concerns.

[Denti]

However all cabin crew /pax ratio I have come across relates to actual number of pax. As stated above 1 to 50.

You should check the current european legislation then, it is based on number of seats (among a number of other things), not passengers. Due to those other factors, operating with a reduced cabin crew might not lead to different allowable pax figures than the next lower number of cabin crew times 50.

However, i do not know if norway follows those rules as for example does switzerland.


ORO.CC.100 Number and composition of cabin crew

(a) The number and composition of cabin crew shall be determined in accordance with 7.a of Annex IV to Regulation (EC) No 216/2008, taking into account operational factors or circumstances of the particular flight to be operated. At least one cabin crew member shall be assigned for the operation of aircraft with an MOPSC of more than 19 when carrying one or more passenger(s).
(b) For the purpose of complying with (a), the minimum number of cabin crew shall be the greater of the following:
(1) the number of cabin crew members established during the aircraft certification process in accordance with the applicable certification specifications, for the aircraft cabin configuration used by the operator; or
(2) if the number under (1) has not been established, the number of cabin crew established during the aircraft certification process for the maximum certified passenger seating configuration reduced by 1 for every whole multiple of 50 passenger seats of the aircraft cabin configuration used by the operator falling below the maximum certified seating capacity; or
(3) one cabin crew member for every 50, or fraction of 50, passenger seats installed on the same deck of the aircraft to be operated.
(c) For operations where more than one cabin crew member is assigned, the operator shall nominate one cabin crew member to be responsible to the pilot-in-command/commander.

[deptrai]

For sure norwegian authorities are looking into this, they dont usually take reports about breaking rules lightly.

[RTO]

For sure norwegian authorities are looking into this, they dont usually take reports about breaking rules lightly.
Is that so? my impression is that you can bend an unlimited amount of aircraft without any more severe consequences than a shrug from NCAA. Anyway they can probably just do a O'leary and claim irish territory on the aircraft in question and everything in its proximity.