Monarch 2015

[Harry palmer]

Has there been significant interest into the Monarch Airbus Rated recruitment? Is there a possibility of any non rated recruitment in the near future?

[RHINO]

Anybody any news?

[Enzo999]

12 cadets starting from oxford this month, don't hold your breath for any recruitment outside of the flight schools. Just another unfortunate case of cheep labour screwing the industry for everyone else.

[tubby linton]

There are rumours of a wet lease which will negate the need for any recruitment. I am surprised at the reliance from OAA unless the airline is being paid something for taking them.With the new payscale it would make more sense to take experienced pilots rather than cadets as you are overpaying for the latters lack of experience.
Under the restructure a lot of experienced pilots have left and the junior pilots who were expecting to be made redundant have been retained,so it would make sense to hire some experienced people.

[Enzo999]

They have introduced a new cadet salary, not sure how much but it's fair to assume it won't be good (The full FO Salary is bad enough). As I understand it, there has been a need to sub lease in the summer which is due to the reduction in Mon fleet size, but this will have no impact on the recruitment needs of Monarch, they need to fully crew 34 aircraft and so many people have left and are continuing to leave that there is a need to replace them. I personally think it's a shame that they could not give these positions to experienced people but that seems to be the trend these days.

[ZeBedie]

Draconian company rules constrain what we can say about the company on the internet, so you will not get an account of how working conditions and morale are at Monarch.

[pudoc]

Draconian company rules constrain what we can say about the company on the internet, so you will not get an account of how working conditions and morale are at Monarch.

So does every company in the world. Surely someone from your company is anonymous on here.

[JB007]

Assymetricdrift

Sadly I think this is a very different company to the one that interviewed you 12 months ago!

[Brian Fantana]

Yeah it is a different company compared to 12 months ago.
Morale is rock bottom, worst it has been for over a decade !! :{ IMO

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Brian - would in hind sight have been better for Monarch to collapse ! Then at least all would have known where they stand rather than six months on moaning about it!

[macdo]

GDAJB
I wish there was an emoticon for 'fell off seat laughing'

[Smokie]

Try .... PMSL :ok: instead

[Holyjoe]

Second batch of cadets now in training with 3 more lots of 4 scheduled for the next few days. Salary for cadets £21000, however is part year part time so slice a bit off that during the quiet months.
Have seen nothing of the "Draconian", just decent people clinging on to their futures. All companies are topping up the numbers with cadets so nothing new there.

[3Greens]

If you think £21,000 (then with a bit lopped off for part time) is an acceptable salary for an airline pilot then you are part of the problem my friend.
my wife is a teaching assistant and earns that. She also gets half the year off and works 9-3. Granted her salary isn't likely to increase as per a pilots, but she also doesn't have a crippling training debt to pay off.

[CaptainSensible]

I thought the salary was nearer £33K. Does the £21K reflect a 9 and 5 roster?

[A4]

£21k ???!!!!! For being second in Command of a multimillion pound asset and a priceless cargo. People really do under value themselves. It'll only stop when people refuse......which will be never. :hmm:

[Harry palmer]

Any news regarding non rated experienced people?

[DooblerChina]

21k?

Is this for real? How long are they on this rate, and when does it increase to anywhere near a reasonable wage?

[hapzim]

£21k ???!!!!! For being second in Command of a multimillion pound asset and a priceless cargo. People really do under value themselves as A4 says.

That's what the paying public don't realise or care about. The person piloting the metal tube they are sitting in especially when anything goes wrong has minimal experience, is living on peanuts, usually running a second job to survive and running higher then ideal levels of Fatigue. :ugh: especially if /when something happens to their colleague :ooh:

[RHINO]

Didn't think Monarch had cadet scales??? They have only one scale for 'pilots'.
When did this change?

[Blantoon]

Cool down everyone, I'm sure there's more to it than we're being told. I don't have the details personally but it's very easy to grab a sensationalist number and run with it. Wait and see until the full information from a reliable source comes out.

It's like the easy NEC, they're paid just £1200 a month initially which garners the same reaction as headline grabber, until you learn all the facts of the situation.

[Alloy]

The facts of the matter is the same as why a lot of experienced guys have walked out the door, (far more than they expected), and are not looking back!

[Blantoon]

That's because they feared losing their jobs as the airline went under, not because they weren't paid enough.

[Alloy]

It was and is a combination of both t&c's and prospects. Some FOs had their salary almost halfed (some ironically are better off shortermwise), some captains lost 30% (a few are better off initially). Also, fear of loosing their job's is not, still unfortunately, in the past tense, unfortunately this is the reason why several are still leaving or looking outside.

Monarch is not the same company it was six months ago in any respect, just ask any of the crew.

[Harry palmer]

Are the gaps in crew just going to be filled by cadets if rated people can't be found or will opportunity open for non rated experienced.

[RHINO]

Zero opportunity this year for non-rated would be my guess.

[JASPA]

Just wait till the fare paying public get to hear about this through what ever social media site :{ curtains for everybody.

[JaxofMarlow]

If it is not true clamchowder, then what is it ? They have introduced a new cadet rate.

[stiglet]

JumboJet 1999 what a load of tosh you speak.

easyJet treat their employees better than most of the other airlines that's why so many pilots are fighting to join their ranks including ex Monarch pilots. I'm assuming you're not fortunate enough to be one of them hence you lack of understanding of the conditions.

[Serenity]

A handful of monarch employees have joined Easyjet, along with BA, Emirates, Etihad, China , Jet2 etc etc, several have turned the Orange side down!
Looking at poor pay and conditions for pilots and cabin crew, suggest you look further than Monarch.
Yes, the new t&c are a downstep fom previously, but they were ways above the average and there are currently an awful lot of far worse places to be at!!

[Enzo999]

I don't know of a single FO to leave Monarch for Easy, make of that what you will!!

[Holyjoe]

Fact!

Compensation and Benefits
Monarch divides the year into 13 roster periods of 28 days each. Pilots typically fly 9 roster periods full time during the summer and winter peak periods and 4 roster periods at 50% during off peak periods. Compensation is thus pro-rated to 11/13ths of the 100% reference salary.

These are salaried positions with a Cadet FO salary of £21,153 for the first six months, then rising to £32,153. These figures are 11/13ths of the 100% reference salaries, which are £25,000 and £38,000 respectively.

Flying Pay
First Officers receive £14.68 per hour, based on chock-to-chock time or scheduled block hour time, whichever is longer.

Other Pay
Monarch pilots receive pay for various non-flying work related activities such as simulator pay, ground classroom training, positioning pay, stand down pay and split duty pay.

Pension
Monarch contributes 7% of the 100% reference salary to the company pension scheme. This is set to rise 1% per year to a maximum of 10% from 1st November 2016-2018. There are no mandatory employee contributions; however, should an employee wish to contribute additional salary to their pension it will be done on a tax efficient salary sacrifice basis. This will be explained in greater detail during company induction.

Pension members also have a Death in Service Benefit and an Income Protection Scheme.

[RHINO]

Sadly Holyjoe there are errors in your post.....

[Count of Monte Bisto]

Enzo999 - as I am sure you are aware, a whole pile of disgruntled easyJet FOs left Monarch a few years ago to join easyJet. Nearly all were strongly advised by their colleagues not to leave as the permanent contracts they were seeking would be issued once the then industrial dispute between BALPA and management was resolved. Despite that advice the said FOs got up and left to join a 'proper' and 'decent' company, where they were destined to be treated with respect etc. Some of those guys have applied to come back and were not considered due to the manner in which they left easyJet (one of life's golden rules is to never clear your pitch when you leave somewhere as you never know what the future holds). Some were considered but there were a number of failures at the sim stage. I know we have taken a number of Monarch captains, but I do not know of any FOs who have actually ended up coming here (for the reasons given).

I understand that one or two of the more senior Monarch captains who were destined to come here as DECs decided at the last minute to stay put. I wish then the very best in the future, but I cannot help but feeling they have made a mistake. As we all know, there is no magic answer to these questions, but from where I sit right now, easyJet's future looks way more solid than Monarch's. A number of people (great guys one and all) obviously do not agree with that assessment and have stuck with Monarch. I simply cannot see a place for a small 737 operation in tomorrow's market place, but time will tell who has got that right or not. In the meantime, I hope all those affected by redundancy/relocation etc will be ok in the longer term.

[Holyjoe]

Rhino...that was the advertisement placed by Monarch..if there are errors then the errors are Monarchs, not mine.

[Enzo999]

This thread is supposed to be about Monarch not Monarch vs EasyJet. I know a few FOs left Easy for Monarch and that seems to have left a bad taste in the mouths of a few guys at Easy, but it was just a few, the vast majority of FOs at Monarch have no connection to Easy at all.

A lot of captains have recently left Mon and I tend to agree with Count that this is the correct move, the guys that turned it down did so because they did not want to relocate or live away from their families for 5 days a week (perfectly understandable).

I also agree that EasyJet are a good company that treat their staff better than its competitors, but don't kid yourselves that it is perfect or that it has not played a part in driving down Terms across the whole industry.

The reasons no FO has joined Easy from Monarch are as follows.

1, most of us can't afford to, if we joined it would be on a fexi contract salary at its best 60k for 900 hours, but I think it's fair to assume we will work closer to 600 resulting in a salary of 40,200, This is based on the highest rate of pay! No pension, sick pay, holiday pay. Like many other adults in this world I have bills nursery fees, mortgage, car loan etc and I have to be sure each month I will be able to pay them.

But after 1 year of this we will be rewarded (if the company requires it) with a full time second officer contract 39k a year with no flight pay. My first ever job in aviation 10 years ago was paying more than that. So after yet another year of not being able to feed my family or heat my house I will finally get that FO salary 45k apart from the are very likely to give me 75 percent meaning another year of earning not enough.

It will easily take me 4 years to earn anything close to the salary needed to maintain my lifestyle.

2, They have not actually offered any of us job we were supposed to have interviews but the were cancelled late last year and never re scheduled. In that time though I bet they have taken hundreds of fresh faced cadets.

If EasyJet offered us all full time FO or SFO contracts nearly every FO would leave instantly but they won't because it's too expensive. As I said earlier I am not attacking EasyJet I like many others would love to join but the terms on offer at the bottom end are so bad only cadets or people truly disparate will except them. At the top end SFO and captain things are much better but still a long way off industry leading.

I am glad the people working at Easy Love it but you must try and see why the rest of us fail to agree. You describe it as a fair and decent employer well they are not being very fair or decent to experienced pilots wanting to join.

[Count of Monte Bisto]

Enzo999 - you are certainly right that easyJet have not offered favourable terms to experienced FOs. The figures you quote are, however, not 100% correct and you also miss out the fact that easyJet has historically exercised some discretion to insert First Officers at an appropriate point on the pay scale depending on their experience.

Unfortunately, your experience of easyJet pilot recruitment and the cancellation of scheduled interviews is par for the course. Indeed, you're lucky you were not offered jobs and them had them rescinded at the last subsequently. Although the recruitment process is quite good, the 'management' of pilot recruitment is something of a disaster. The only thing I can say by way of consolation is that once you get through all that and into the Company it is a really good place to be. Anyway, so sorry about that. Good luck in all your endeavours.

[JaxofMarlow]

There may well have historically been discretion exercised but there was no hint of it this time.

Figures not accurate Count. Which ones ? They are what I thought.

Enzo999 is absolutely right. 10 years experience to be offered a flex contract then maybe 2nd Officer then maybe 75% FO pay scale is just not viable when you have little mouthes to feed. Anyway, it was all academic anyway. Such a pity.

[Aluminium shuffler]

For all its faults, RYR doesn't pay such a paltry salary as that! For those that seem to think EZY is wonderful, get out a bit more! They're not bad for Captains, but they're terrible to junior FOs. No low cost airline in the EU is a good place to be long term.

[ATIS]

You can now expect a base change with your promotion

[ZeBedie]

New joiners need to consider the possible effect of "Right to return" people jumping in ahead of them on the seniority list.

[renort]

or the medium/long term viability of the business...

do your homework

A few years ago people were excitedly discussing the virtues of Monarch and basing their decision solely on the unsustainable T&C's. Hence people came and recently went home disappointed.

Look beyond the headlines, read the whole newspaper.

[IcePack]

Renort the total salary bill only dropped 5%. It is just that some took a 40% pay cut, whilst others gained. Also it is worth contemplating that crew costs are only in the region of 12% of DIrect Operating Costs. (Ask Stelios :)) So unsustainable well depends on your perspective. MeThinks it is just the industry dumbing down pilots jobs.

[Crosswind Limits]

Bumped into some fresh faced Oxford cadets last week in the A320 sim at LGW who were joining MON. It seems like the shortfall is being made up of entirely cadets which is a great shame for those of us with experience and type rated.

[carbheatout]

Crosswind,

I guess to hire a cadet is cheaper than hiring an experienced guy. Sucks but that's the way it is. I don't know where this trend will end really. I suppose if airlines want to flog seats for peanuts then they have to cut their costs, and the largest cost that they can control (other than leasing costs maybe) is that of pilots salaries. We're soft targets.

[ICEHOUSES]

Mon is a unsustainable business model in today's low cost climate, anybody would be mad to chuck in a job to join this outfit, near zero chance the max order will ever come about.

[Count of Monte Bisto]

ICEHOUSES - A voice of sanity in a mad world.

[111KAB]

Greybull have an exit strategy (if necessary) with a degree of profit/limited exposure however if AS and his team succeed their return on investment is enhanced but, at some stage, whether short or medium term, they want out and they have no concern for the 'establishment' only their/investors money.

[pabloc]

Like to know where you got that info from???...exit strategy :confused:

[Fanatic]

Oh man they're vulture capitalists. Of course they have an exit strategy, it goes hand in hand with their reason for buying in.:ugh:

[Enzo999]

Can somebody explain to me why Monarch is an "unsustainable business model"? If it has a low enough cost base why can't it make some money?

Sounds like I need to run out and get another job, shame I really liked this one.

[favete linguis]

Greybull 'exit strategy'.

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/545380-monarch-turbulence-16.html#post8666246

blackandbrown (http://www.pprune.org/members/340887-blackandbrown) and blantoon (http://www.pprune.org/members/414990-blantoon) will be along shortly to explain.

[pabloc]

Oh yeah ,of course its all doom and gloom at Monarch might have to follow Enzo999 as well:ugh:.....better not take that attitude into work :mad: day we would have:{

[JaxofMarlow]

Agree. If Mon business model is not sustainable then nor is EZY and RYR.

Yes, it will be difficult because confidence and moral is low but really could do without outsiders expressing their ill informed opinions. We have seen enormous changes internally and it is all about returning Mon to profit. The model is perfectly sustainable and those inside will do their utmost to make it work. If you are lucky enough to have landed an orange seat, sit back and think yourself lucky but stop the gloating.

[111KAB]

With regard to the MON 'business model' there are significant differences with EZY and RA. Just to pick out two current hot topics ....MON only have UK bases so they do not have the ability to 'react' within 261 time scales thus creating a financial liability and they provide ATOL certification to all their flights at an estimated cost of £2.40 per passenger per flight. Sheer size of operation leads to economies which MON can never achieve.

[karanou]

Yet another thread littered with orange glow.

No other airlines crews tends to shower this site with exclamations by of how great life is as those from the orange machine does.

The bulk of my aquaintances who operate in the orange loco aren't actually that keen. Due to a whole host of reasons.

So was the thread about Monarch recruitment?

Good luck guys. Ive friends who are Mon and met lots of Monarch crews over the years. For sure thngs are a bit up in the air at present but still a very decent operator.

Fingers crossed the business plan comes off and they dont just become another airline swallowed up by the locos.

[Serenity]

Well so far so good!!

According to management briefings, Sales and profit, above and beyond what was first forecast on take over by the new owners. That's also without the bonus of lower fuel costs!!

Long may it continue!! :D

[ATIS]

And scheduling agreement intact. Yes I know we've had a pay cut smart asses. Hopefully to be addressed in a couple of years time.

[koi]

Absolutely dismayed to learn that a council house boy from a Bournemouth sink estate has taken over as Monarch CEO. What a dive in experience from the halcyon days of Danny Bernstein who at least had an impeccable business background from Dan Air in the 70,s.and a great man to work for.
I can only think that this follows the current trend of placing thugs with dubious educational backgrounds and a penchant for disliking the Airline Pilot in the front of the rack em and stack em businesses.

[renort]

I sincerely hope you're joking. Although Danny was (is) a gentleman, as was AJS before him.

I did think the referencing to Council Estates was a bit unnecessary in that article but Monarch's PR obviously thought it was the right angle to take.

[Count of Monte Bisto]

And if Monarch's PR people thought it was right, then they must be right. In fact, you should believe everything they tell you - the new Monarch will really have no difficulty as a minnow in a pond of giant carp like Ryanair, easyJet, Norwegian and Veiling. How hard can it be?

[compton3bravo]

Sounds like you think you are a cut above the rest Koi, what is wrong with coming from a Council Estate or anywhere for that matter, good look to anybody who tries to improve oneself. Have you met the person in question, doubt it. I tell you something you just sound like an obnoxious little :mad: and by God have I met a few of your like over the years unfortunately.

[IcePack]

compton 3b, why be so abusive. koi is entitled to his/her opinion as are you. :mad:

[fa2fi]

You've contributed nothing to this thread (admittedly nor have I) save for your bizarre ramblings. Being from a council estate and house did me no harm. Some people from very humble beginnings have went on to either lead or build major businesses. It's a shame that no matter how hard someone works, what they achieve or what they do for a living can be overshadowed by where they come from in life by the likes of you.

[tubby linton]

The only thing I remember Danny doing was buying Pullman Holidays ,which specialised in holidays to Israel. We have not operated a flight there for years.,so you can see how profitable that purchase was.
I personally do not care where the management comes from as long as they provide strong leadership and are competent at what they do. There have been too many leaders recently who have not demonstrated either of these qualities or have only produced a profit by failing to invest and modernise and have sweated the assets.
What I find disturbing is the horde of orange on this forum who are obviously so insecure of their long term positions that they have to denigrate any company who may offer even a hint of competition to their employer.

I'll venture

Quod circumvehitur, revehitur.

[Burpbot]

It seems to me a lot of yellow jealousy from the Orange machine! Maybe the fatigue upsets them? I would rather be lead by a savy ex council bloke than an arrogant ctc type ;)

[Aluminium shuffler]

Interesting, isn't it, the pervasive "orange" (genuinely used as an EZY management term regarding personality). That it comes invariably from such smug cadets and those older crew who have never worked elsewhere shows a terrible problem with insecurity mixed with arrogance. You only have to look at their strut around the airport... It's a minority of their staff that are so afflicted, but not a small minority. :=

[fa2fi]

It must be a miniscule proportion of easy crew who do that. I've never heard anything but positivity toward Monarch and their crew and recall several different people discussing how they wish Monarch well and to pull through, as I'm sure we all do. Admittedly there are a few people so orange that you can't reason with them when you say anything 'bad' about easy but I'm sure other airlines have these types too.

If easy crew are strutting around then it would be an extraordinary turn of events as it was only until recently people used to look down on us. In fact I remember being in a northern base and crew from at least two other airlines (neither Monarch) would go out of their way to avoid us when passing or sharing a lift!

Give any 19/20 year old a couple of silver or gold bars and he's going to strut round the terminal no matter who he works for. Seen it too many times with my own eyes!

[JEM60]

I know a council house boy who is currently a Training Captain for a large very well known airline in the U.K.

[Wingswinger]

Legions of council house boys made good in the days when every town had a grammar school.

[Exascot]

Jesus was born in a stable and he seemed to do OK. Well, apart from the crucifixion, that was a bit unfortunate. Anyway, anyone who can turn water into wine is OK with me :ok:

Monarch was a great company in my day. It is very sad the way things have turned out. I wish you all tbe very best for the future.

[compton3bravo]

Of course Jesus had to be born in a stable because the inn was full - it was Christmas! Old joke I know but just trying to lighten the proceedings a little on this thread;)

[Desk-pilot]

You raise an interesting point about Grammar Schools. I've never understood why the Labour Party are so ideologically opposed to them when the Grammar School system was the best bridge out of poverty that the working class ever had. If Labour wanted to win the next election they could do worse than offering to bring them back...

Anyway speaking personally I would jump at the chance of a job at Monarch but sadly they don't seem to be interested in us turboprop guys at present. I can only hope that situation changes. There are legions of ex-jet jocks at Flybe who have been forced off the jet back to the Dash 8 and want to find a pathway back to a jet job and Monarch would suit just fine.

If anyone has any info please post here. I'm aware that the package has diminished and the company has had its problems but I for one wish them well for the future and look forward to seeing them back on top form again.

[a320_flyer]

As much fun as the "my airlines going to last longer than yours" arguments are - lets face it. We are ALL employed in aviation - job security doesn't exist!

It's purely timing and luck that determine your first job. From there it's a personal choice whether to stay or move on elsewhere dependent on our individual circumstances. NO AIRLINE OFFERS IT ALL!

It would have been a loss if Monarch succumbed last year. I'm sure times are tough and morale is undoubtedly an issue but the cost base is dramatically reduced; they have finally a leader at the helm (irrespective of where he came from); a strong brand; excellent loads and dare I say it the only 'low cost' player with the faintest clue about customer service. It's all to play for and good luck to them!

[MikeAlphaTangoTango]

DP

Without wishing to give you false hope, the ex-Flybe joiners from the last couple of years have been highly regarded within the training dept and so it is entirely conceivable that more will be fished from this particular pool at some point.

[Desk-pilot]

Thanks Mike, I will keep my ear to the ground and hope it re-opens for us - good to hear that the Flybe peeps were a good fit - I guess if you can fly a Dash 8 you can fly pretty much anything!!

[RAFAT]

Dash drivers have been doing well at Monarch for years, many made the switch in 04, 05 & 06 and were highly regarded by the training department. Dash guys & gals just have to get past the "jet time, jet time, jet time" brigade that still exists in some airlines, the training is the easy bit!

[kaikohe76]

A number of posts here, have mentioned Monarch being well known & respected for both the standard of their training & also their customer service. I agree totally with this in all respects & would suggest a positive outcome in the future for the company.

[Blantoon]

I guess if you can fly a Dash 8 you can fly pretty much anything!!

I would guess the flybe guys success is more a result of the high standards and quality of training that flybe guys possess, rather than which aircraft they fly.

[squeaker]

My understanding is that they are going to take applications from people with turboprop experience now.
As others have said above, got some really good ex Flybe drivers here, think this is a sensible move to get some very experienced pilots on board.

[SAXONBLOKE]

That's very good news regarding non-type rated applicants.

[Harry palmer]

So is that to say recruitment is to open for Non rated experienced people or is there some sort of deal between Monarch and flybe?

[RAFAT]

I would guess the flybe guys success is more a result of the high standards and quality of training that flybe guys possess, rather than which aircraft they fly.

You'd be surprised, some (not all of course) have moved to other airlines from other JEA/Flybe types and have struggled/failed. The Dash really does prepare one well for the move to jet types.

[Harry palmer]

Any further news regarding possible non rated recruitment at Monarch?

[Crosswind Limits]

I am rated and experienced and have been in the interview hold pool for over 2 years! I was hopeful earlier this year when I heard that they were going to be badly short this summer due so many crew leaving! I have a couple of mates there so was quite hopeful but since then it's become apparent that the shortfall is being covered by Oxford cadets! In fact a few weeks ago I bumped into 2 such lucky cadets at CAE Fleming Way. They were doing a 320 rating!

Anyway, I managed to secure a job with another UK Airbus airline to start in a few weeks so I've now given up with Monarch.

Good luck to all.

[Harry palmer]

Once again the cheapest option rules!

[ATIS]

2 guys are exercising their right to return from BA.

[Iver]

Return from BA? Now that is unexpected!!!! Any reasons given?

[T6NL]

Er - lifestyle, lifestyle, lifestyle?!!

[Smokie]

Surely not....... :E

[McNugget]

I wish them well, but that's pretty gutsy...

[ZeBedie]

Wait till they've tried a summer EASA roster with airport standbys and minimum days off.

[Twiglet1]

ZEB

Wait till they've tried a summer EASA roster with airport standbys and minimum days off.

What's the difference to being on Airport Standby and minimum days off at Monarch under CAP371 - Can you enlighten us please?

[SAXONBLOKE]

Not full blown EASA Regs though. Still got scheduling agreement and day off definition retained as well of course as the protections the UK Working Time Directive brings.
Mind you, even then EASA FTLs are scary enough. :{

[ZeBedie]

Airport standbys and a reduction in days off, from 10 down to 8 are a new treat for us.

[Twiglet1]

I assume the treat is better than zero days off had Monarch failed in the winter. If I was in your position I'd be more worried about the grim reaper coming again.....

[JaxofMarlow]

Thank you for well informed opinion Twiglet. Helps a lot.

[ZeBedie]

Twiglet, you know nothing about my position so please don't make foolish assumptions.

This part of pprune is intended for pilots seeking employment and not for office staff seeking to cause trouble. May I respectfully suggest that your input is not and cannot be helpful.

[Twiglet1]

My humble apologies to all. I wish MON nothing but the best my line of questioning was down to my personal experiences of airline unemployment and at that time I didn't care what I did as long as I was paid.

[ZeBedie]

OK, sorry if I was a bit harsh.

[guvey101]

Is there any news on future recruitment, TR/NTR?

Many Thanks,
G

[Cliff Secord]

Twiglet. I've been in that position. And the effect of threats from management that the airline will close and therefore need to hammer pay and conditions to surivive rarely fail to work on the workforce.

A fair amount of companies that end up staying in business have according to them scraped through using this tactic and dodged the bullet. Of course, nothing to do with overall business wastage, poor price point, lease deals, hedging errors etc etc. And funny that the next round of senior managers aren't exactly on 60k a year "all found". The companies that do go out of business tend to go quick without bullying the staff to believe its their fault that their perceived high pay and days off are jeopardising the company. It's the same old story. Badly managed, don't say anything for years. The accountants pick up the phone just giving the bottom line. As a manager you crap yourself, realise to fix the years of mis management/bad descisions takes too long. So then pick on the lowest common denominator to pick up your bill, then take the quick way. Blame it on them, the workers, they'll buy it. They're stupid.

Not saying there's a lot to do be done in this situation, as calling bluff when a company is threatening to shut its doors takes a brave man, but the airline world has recently seen more than its fair share of this trick.

[PressTheTit]

Application in yesterday, exiting times. Yet another great airline recruiting :D is the big freeze over?

[ZeBedie]

Cliff, I'm not inclined to disagree with any of that.

[Captainwingman]

Anyone received a response about their application yet?

[HPbleed]

@PressTheTit.

Once was a great airline, now the same as the others.

[frozenpilot]

@ HP bleed,

Couldn't agree more! Anyone considering Monarch should do their research! Airline bought out by venture capitalists, currently part time in the winter and a summer slogging! Not the place it was!

[frozenpilot]

@ HP bleed,

Couldn't agree more! Anyone considering Monarch should do their research! Airline bought out by venture capitalists, currently part time in the winter and a summer slogging! Not the place it was!

[Captain Planet]

Hi Folks,

Has anyone any idea of time to command in Monarch?

Are all the pilot body on 85% contracts or is it just new hires?

Regards,

CP.

[Enzo999]

All pilots at Mon are on forced part year working which equates to slightly less than 85%. There was some talk about this being increased to 92% for next year, but with the recent issues in Egypt I would not hold your breath on any change for the foreseeable future.

Command, well who knows! My guess would be quite a long time. With no expansion plans and captains reluctant or unable to leave due to the recent pension massacre, you are basically reliant on age related retirements which are few and far between. Without a change in circumstance i.e mass expansion I think you could be easily looking at 10 to 15 years and let's be honest in this industry can anyone even be sure Mon will exist by then (or even next week)!

[Captain Planet]

Your answers sound familiar Enzo999 e.g like every other European airline :uhoh:

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Regards,

CP.

[Smokie]

A colleague of mine who started early this year, has been told he could be looking at a Command in a couple of years .......

[Enzo999]

That's what they told me 3 years ago and I am still a long way down the seniority list. Unfortunately they seem to use command as a carrot to dangle to stop people leaving, to be honest they have very few other "carrots" available to them these days.

Anyone joining today will have at least 200 F/Os in front of them, obviously not all will have the hours (but that will change with time) and not all will meet the grade but it's still a vast number ahead of you. The airline is not expanding or expected to for a number of years (or ever) and the captains are all very reluctant to leave, so you are reliant on retirements. Because of the changes last year many captains were hit hard on their pensions so are now all planning to work till 65.

So to be honest I don't believe anyone has any chance of command for many many years possible 10 or more and who can say if monarch will even be here by then. There are some great reasons to join Mon but unfortanately this is not one.

[Field In Sight]

Just for a bit of balance regarding time to command.
I waited 8 years.

Command courses are running this year for F/O's that have been in the company as low as 4.5 years.

Many captains are not contemplating going back full time when that happens in the next couple of years.

Some captains will retire early rather than go on the 737 max when it arrives.
Some are now considering part-time working, now that it is in a more agreeable format.
Also, the fleet size maybe 30 but probably towards the 45 including firm orders.

We aren't as competitive T&C's wise, so the churn of F/O's might be higher than in previous years. (When it was quite high anyway).

Also, there would presently be just 183 F/O's above you :)

That's a positive spin on things. Possibly, reality might be somewhere in the middle.

If you really want to know the time to command, get one of these:
http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k630/mike_a_mckay/crystal_2.png (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/mike_a_mckay/media/crystal_2.png.html)

[renort]

fleet growing by 50%?!

Last time Monarch's eyes were bigger than their belly it was hours away from killing the company before the penny dropped.

[Field In Sight]

It's closer to 30% and it wouldn't be until delivery of all of the Boeings. Which is at least 5yrs away.

And it may not happen.

[JaxofMarlow]

And thats your positive spin ! So Enzo is about right then if fleet growth, if any exists, is 5 years away at least. And 'just 183" is pretty close to 200.

[Field In Sight]

183 is close to 200 hence a smiley face.
The EASA FTLs have battered us this year, so expect many to stay on PYW or go onto PYW.

Thought I'd provide information as accurately as I know for anyone interested.

[ZeBedie]

and the captains are all very reluctant to leave

Very true - those who were likely to leave did so last year. Those remaining have had a push to leave but continued to stick it out.

Of those who left last winter (captains and f/os), most have a right to return, with seniority above anyone joining now.

[fmgc]

Expansion will be coming, but unlike before the restructure it will be measured and controlled. I think that there will be expansion long before the 737s are delivered.

Who ever said Monarch were bought by venture capitalists have got it wrong. It is a family investment trust with a very different business model than your average asset stripping VC. Having said that they are not stupid....

[RHINO]

...go on then what is this 'business model'?

[Fuel Crossfeed]

The lure of a quick command, that old chestnut. Spin used by most interview boards!!
Will be interesting to see how many of the guys/girls who left during the rough tough times will use their right to return, as and when the choppy waters appear to have calmed?

[ATIS]

I don't see many returning as they must be current on a Monarch type, ie A320/(737 in future)

Many are now flying A330/787/A380s, so it would be up to them to maintain recency on A320.

Those currently flying A320s are happily sitting RHS at BA, so seriously doubt they will return.

[ZeBedie]

...go on then what is this 'business model'?

Buy and hold.

[Twiglet1]

...go on then what is this 'business model'?

Rhino

Survival model

Monarch doesn't want to be too successful as the venture guys will sell them

[JaxofMarlow]

I guess it would depend on who they were sold to that would determine if Monarch, its customers and employees liked it.

[Alloy]

ATIS, the largest groups of pilots who left Monarch and are still flying with a contract saying they can return can probably be split mostly into four groups, only one of which I would have thought may have any interest at all in returning, and that is unlikely:

BA FOs - whe the vast majority of mostly younger guys who were FOs at Monarch went, I would have thought they are unlikely to return as they mostly have time on their side and can see the BA career potential.

EK FOs - mostly ex-ZB captains, now EK A380 FOs who have taken a total lifestyle change, unless they are disliking this, I would have thought bearing in mind their significant A380 bond, unlikely to return to ZB.

Easy A320 DECs - where the vast majority of departing non retiring captains went. They are current and with no bond and thus mobile but I would have thought unlikely to return unless they really don't like the Easy way.

China, Far East, Air Tanker, EK, EY etc. DECs - now debatably the group with the most experience and still flying or current on 320s or closely related aircraft and have no bonds. This is probably the most mobile group who is most likely to return but why would they?