Complete novice, Advice needed.

[leedsample]

Ok here goes. Im sure there has probably been another post similar to this, however i have searched and found nothing.

To fully understand what i am asking you should know abit about me. I am 25 years old, i was a soldier for 6 years and i have been at Durham university for the last 2 years working towards a degree in Physical Geography (as i planned on becoming a secondary school geography teacher). I was wounded in action in Afghanistan and discharged in 2012, i am fine now and confident on passing any medical required. I would ideally like to have a career in aviation and i skydive too (400+ jumps) as i really enjoy every aspect of aviation.

Long story short my medical insurance has finally settled and i now have enough money to comfortably spend on training to become a commercial pilot (150k+). I am very inexperienced in this area and would like to hear any advice from this community, good and bad, even if you think trying for a career in aviation is a bad move for what ever reason. what do you think i should be aiming for? the aviation industry as a whole, rotary or fixed wing etc. i would like to complete my degree otherwise the last 2 years would have been a waste. So this means i can do it in my free time for the next 2 years before really investing 100% of my effort into it. Any tips for newbiess etc?

As it stands i was planning on going with a provider based out of newcastle airport on a part time basis and try to complete my PPL then move forward but i do like the sound of of the rotary side of life but i am unsure to what end? as i would imagine the job sector would be smaller and i know its alot more expensive so i am an open book and would like to hear any advice on the matter so i can make an informed decision. As ive said even if you think im being silly or short sighted please say so as id like to hear any viewpoint.

thank you for your time!

[Romeo Hotel]

Before you do anything else head down to Gatwick and get your class 1 medical. People have failed with all sorts of random and seemingly harmless ailments, so before you spend huge sums on training get the medical nailed.

[speedrestriction]

Agree: medical must be first port of call.

Complete your degree, something to fall back on when flying deals you a s**t hand. Also gives you more to talk about in competency type interviews (working to a deadline, able to self motivate) though no doubt you will have many fine examples from your previous line of work.

Airliners are generally a more comfortable working environment than helis albeit there is a lot of interesting work in rotary. In the rotary field there are fewer jobs available but there are fewer applicant looking for those jobs. There is I suspect more competition for those jobs from ex forces pilots than is the case in fixed wing. On the civil/airline side there are more jobs but also many more applicants looking for those jobs. Airline recruitment is very un-even and it is nearly impossible to guess when there will next be any large scale demand for new pilots. If it was me and I was totally committed to pursuing a commercial aviation path then I would be trying to get on a preselected course for one of the airlines through one of the designated suppliers (CTC/OAA etc). Unfortunately they seem to have the cadet market cornered when it comes to the two biggest UK airlines.

No easy answers I'm afraid! Best of luck whatever path you follow.

[mrmum]

Hi Leedsample,

You no longer have to go to CAA HQ at Gatwick for an initial Class 1 medical, there are 3 other centres, see below:

http://http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=1859&pagetype=90&pageid=527 (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=1859&pagetype=90&pageid=527)

You might want to consider the NATS aeromedical centre at Prestwick as you're up north? Although, a day return flight from NCL to LGW is also reasonably handy I'm told.

Also, as you're ex-forces, are you eligible for and have you considered part funding from the ELCAS scheme? You have a decent pot of money already, but if there's some to be had, why not avail yourself of it?

[leedsample]

hey mr mum, yeah im probably going to hit the train to Glasgow for the jock center. Well H4H have provided me 20 hours of training at black bush airport towards a PPL but thats not until September, so id like to get started now. Im currently getting my med docs in order and going to book an appointment at Glasgow as soon as i have them in hand. As for the ELCAS i traded mine in for funding for my university degree. So unfortunatly not but this 20 hours grant from H4H will deffo help. Cheers for the advice already ill deffo get this class 1 medical in hand before forking out.

[b.a. Baracus]

Check out Wings for Warriors. I read an article about them in the newspaper recently. I believe they have helped some guys who have been wounded / medically discharged achieve a job flying on the North Sea.

[leedsample]

cheers for the input guys. im in the process now of retrieving my medical documents and once i have them ill book an appointment for a class 1 medical in Scotland. I have contacted the Wings4warrior boys to ask their stand point on it all. I think ill go the modular route deffo as ive scanned the other threads and they all seem to point out paying 90k+ for all the modules when i could spend 40k is insane. All that remains now is to pass this medical, and decide whether to invest in the rotary side of life or remain fixed wing. I would ideally like to fly the helicopters but i know its just to look cool and practically going fixed wing is the better option as its cheaper and a wider scope of jobs available. Ill do some more research and decide whats the best route. Ill deffo remain in education and finish off this degree and do it all alongside my degree and in the summer break just go abroad to build hours.

I really do appreciate the input guys, made me think.

[mad_jock]

To be honest with that kind of cash not needing to borrow it would be worth seeing if you could pass selection for the CTC course which gets you placed.

Also with your back ground I suspect that you will have a pretty good chance with the mentored courses with some tax free pay back periods.

You have a fair bit of time so don't commit until the fat bird sings and you have to. Because you have a bit of life experience your way ahead of a lot of the guys of the same age.

[leedsample]

So im in talks with the wings4 warrior guys.

Well ive scanned the modular vs integrated forum. what is all your take on it guys? if you had the money to pay for CTC upfront and still have 100k spare would you still DIY the modular course and try to break in to the industry? or pay double the modular and potentially get placed with CTC?

As for rotary what are your takes on it?

[Gpro]

It's a tough decision, especially if you can financially afford to do either. I'm ex Military and I used RAF flying clubs to get my ppl at a cheaper rate. From then on I did modular and used MultiFlight (Leeds) for the courses I required (CPL. ME IR). For the joc and mcc I used CRM aviation. For the ATPL theory I used Bristol groundschool. You should also have access to ELCs which will help pay for a few courses.

But as everyone has said, get the class 1 first before spending a heap of cash. Also my other advice would be not to pay everything up front. It wasn't long ago cabair went bust and people had just handed them £000s in cash.

Good luck

[leedsample]

how you getting on now gpro?

i dont have the ELCs anymore as i traded them into pay my university tuition fees. . im just doing all the research now.But now the army settled too im about 200k+ i see the BA FPP is opening up for applications feb 23rdish but i understand ive got better chances of winning the lottery than getting in on that gig, but i will apply any way. Im really unsure as to what option to take. I am really interested in Rotary but ill see what the SMEs say. i also have my class 1 medical in preswick on 23rd so fingers crossed i pass that.


cheers

[parkfell]

The BA route is worth considering, together with the FLYBE MPL scheme. Any form of sponsorship is worthwhile as a potential job is likely to follow.

If this type of route fails to materialise, choose a well recognised EASA ATO, and go full time. Ensure that you do a full MCC/JOC course post IRT. This is the most important part of the basic training for fixed wing ~ better option?

With a year to go at Durham, you have time to fully consider the best option for you. Your present age is not an issue.

[leedsample]

Thanks, well i have a few feelers out. The rotary side of life looks really tempting but it is just so expensive and the job market so fine.

So if all fails and im funding this myself then fixed wing it is. Im planning , if i have to go it alone, to do my PPL with Newcastle then hour build and do the ATPL exams together.

Then do the rest at leeds, CPL, MEP and IR. Ill look into JOC any ideas of good providers?

If i did this full time what would be a reasonable time estimate of completion? lets say i started mid August on the PPL what would the be the end state if this was all i did as i have the funds to just go for it? like finish early to mid 2017? (the modular way if i cant get on an integrated? )

[parkfell]

Full time, say 60 weeks. Look at the best known ATOs first in the EU if you can afford it.
They have the contacts with the airlines if sponsorship is not possible.

But ensure class one medical issued before anything else.

[leedsample]

cheers parkfell, just so im clear ATOs is aviation training organizations?and do you have any recommendations of any for comparison?

so any tweaks on my modular plan?

Newcastle
PPL + night training
(potential hour building, if not abroad too) + ATPL exams at home.

Leeds
MEP, CPL, IR. more hour building if not abroad too

CRM aviation
JOC/MCC combined course.

and you think 60 weeks is a good time estimate if i just go for it as money isnt a problem. cheers for the advice though really do appreciate it.

[PPRuNeUser0173]

You may find the Leeds bit more time consuming as they only have 1 runway and the airfield is 680ish feet above mean sea level which can lead to lots of weather delays. The training is good and the school is nice but you will loose out on continuity if you do suffer these weather delays. I suggest revising your timescales and/or training providers.

[BAe 146-100]

If money is not a problem why not go integrated and have all the benefits that come with it? Quicker to being qualified and somewhat higher chance of employment. Also going all over the place for your training isn't the best idea, ideally you want some continence with the same training provider considering your starting from scratch.

[parkfell]

I agree entirely with 146- comments.

Integrated is your best option by far. With the GBP/€ favourable look at the FTE website. You need to consider Oxford and CTC as well.

Look at BA student pilot schemes........you never know

[b.a. Baracus]

If money is not the deciding factor then definitely go integrated. The big integrated schools have pretty much got the low hour recruitment sewn up in the UK.

[leedsample]

thank you to everyones advice so far

i understand the lure of the integrated route. the only thing im worried about is the justification. i understand if i go modular then im going it alone and im going to have to start really low to get airtime and work my way up onto the jets (i watched that 'worst placed to be a pilot' looked really adventurous) but ive spend sub 40k getting through training plus its been tailor made to suit my life. if i go integrated im spending 80k +. the extra 40k+ potentially gets me on the jets for a first job? or am i being blunt?

i spoke with guy who went through CTC and he said to me he had to be placed in a waiting pool upon graduation and waited 9 months for a start and spent 100k plus for the process then went home and worked in a carpet shop until he got the email through for a flexi contract for easy jet.

question is do i spend the 100k and potentially wait post graduation for an email that may never come? or do i go it alone and work my way up with hours but have a 50k pillow?

thanks for the advice guys as this decision is the biggest ive ever had to make and will dictate the course of my life.

[parkfell]

The other consideration is that only the better ones make it to Easyjet and Ryanair etc. You will need to excel in all departments. You need to aim for 90%+ in each written exam, with first time passes in the flying. The critical phase is the MCC/JOC course. If you stumble here, all bets are off about jet flying.
This is best attempted on an integrated course.

Working your way up as you put can be essentially a leap in the dark.
Modular is ideal if you are working and wish to earn at the same time.

Best of luck with the medical:)

[leedsample]

yeah thats the thing. But im sure if there was a clear cut route to this flying gig then everybody would be in on it. So ill have to have a think. i like the look of the FTE as they provide a nice all round figure. do they potentially place you?

thanks for the support. im going to be making a decision soon. lets just hope i make the right one.

[parkfell]

As I say, the market now is such that the better ones are finding jobs.
Do your own research on say, Ryanair recruitment........to name but one.

[byrondaf]

leedsample

question is do i spend the 100k and potentially wait post graduation for an email that may never come? or do i go it alone and work my way up with hours but have a 50k pillow?

That is the great debate and you must make your own decision. Want a jet job quickly? most likely CTC/OAA integrated, want to work your way up slowly? modular. unfortunately there's no magic formula, some mod guys get hired quickly, some integrated chaps never get a job. all depends on hard work, timing, contacts, bit of luck and sometimes money (ryanair).

I thought about going modular, saved up 50k, but ended up going integrated with CTC for a few reasons, quicker job opportunities, training in NZ, a family friend who went through CTC integrated and was placed quickly etc, but I also know 2 guys that did the mod route at CTC, one got a job within 3 months, one never made it into a jet. Maybe in a few years I'll look back and know if I made the right choice or not, 50k debt or no debt, that was my choice. I've gone with the former, lets see if it works out.

Regarding waiting for the email, it will come as long as you don't massively screw it up, but who knows if it's a week or 9 months...all depends on airlines recruiting at the time you finish.

[leedsample]

yeah cheers mate, understand totally.

well i passed my medical yesterday, which for me was my biggest worry due to what happened in Afghanistan 3 years ago. So ive decided this is defiantly what i want to do.

now the question remains.

do i apply for OAA/CTC or FTE and part with 100k cash and at least have a bit of top cover (military term for overwatch or support) post graduation. providing i even get a place.

Or do i go to Florida and complete a 5 week EASA PPL+night rating (spoke to uk PPL providers in my area and they said even if i just go for it and get lucky with weather it could still take 3-6 months to complete). then come home and study for ATPL exams until march 2016 and do some hours on the side before doing a dirty dash back to the states to get to the required hours before i turn up to BCFT or multiflight or FTE jerez for the CPL, ME, IR then onto MCC/JOC etc and save myself 50k in cash to play with to go it alone?

the great debate forever continuing......

[parkfell]

Well done on passing your medical.

What you want is QUALITY training. Whilst I am sure that there are some suitable training outfits in the USA, there is no certainty that this will be achieved.

CTC, FTE, and Oxford as ATOs are your best bet to ensure that QUALITY is achieved.

Before you are accepted, aptitude testing should be carried out by the ATO.
Independent UK testing is also available.

The modular route is cheaper, but if QUALITY training has been lacking prior to the later stages of training, then you will struggle. Additional training? Retake of flying tests? Additional expense ! Think QUALITY.

A recommendation by the ATO goes a long way to gaining employment.

Book the aptitude testing. A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. :)

[leedsample]

thanks parkfell, great advice as always.

i understand quality is the most important factor in all this. i also see CTC, OAA, FTE do modular courses designed for later part of training? probably dont get the benifits of a holding pool though if you do this.

the reason im also reluctant to go integrated all the way is i can't start a course to the new year/early 2016. due to personal reasons. so i want to do something productive until then. So this is my reasoning behind getting a PPL and hours and knocking out the ATPL distance until early 2016 before i move to the advanced stages of training. I understand i could just carry on working until then and just start but again due to personal reasons this isn't feasible too.

in short i REALLY just want to get on with it and move in the right direction without a lull.

[BAe 146-100]

You have the money to do integrated, do integrated, its a no brainer.

Don't think of modular giving you a spare 50K, because nowadays being a basic CPL does not get you an airline job in Europe, or in most parts of the world. You have to self fund type ratings, pay to join an airline, or worst case fund you own line training. So it will cost round about 100K when your all said and done anyway.

Integrated gives you direct access to the holding pools assuming you come up to the required standard in your training, modular does not.

It all boils down to what you want to do at the end of the day, but you only get this chance once, you don't want to be sitting 18 months down the line wishing you had gone integrated when you read on here integrated are going straight to easyJet etc and your waiting around for a job.

[leedsample]

i understand this, im researching all the potential options right now.

can i ask a few questions just to arm myself with the most important asset of all, information.

firstly:
What are the job prospects for lets say getting modular and flying turbine aircraft abroad for a while. AKA suzi air in indonisia or bush flying in africa or south america after CPL and IR etc.

[Exiled Martian]

Interesting thread.....the tide of advice seems to be swaying you towards the integrated path. Congrats on your Class 1 mate.

I'm just here juxtapose a more vintage modular picture for you based on my experience so far....so far I'm ~£49K in went from PPL---->MCC (on a humble FNPTII TP) & due to start my 738 TR soon....so that's another what ~£21K roughly brining it to a grand total of about £70K all in for flight training with a RHS to boot.

P.s: I didn't go to any of the more renowned schools echoed in here so far & did it all over a span of 3 years alongside full time work.....so yea in this day, age & era despite the naysayer like stigma on here the old school modular path is still feasible i.e. miracles do happen mate :ok:

Good luck with your flight training endeavours on the chosen choice of path chap :ok:

[parkfell]

Leedsample

When do you complete at Durham?

[leedsample]

i actually complete fully 2017 parkfell but im withdrawing now in june, as i feel i shouldn't be treading water and that i must just go for it. im 25 now and i know this is still really young but when i came to university whilst in the army rehabilitation system in 2013 i was in a different social and financial position. The dream of becoming a pilot was unattainable but this seems to have changed.

i have always wanted to learn to fly, however lacked the funds so i chose to go to university courtesy of the MOD's chequebook but now the armed forces compensation scheme and my medical insurance have settled i have actually, much to my amazement, had a U turn in life. the goal posts have changed in effect. So rightly or wrongly i have decided to take the qualifications i have amassed at university so far and withdraw to pursue a career as a pilot.

i know in my previous posts i have stated i would stay and complete but i have changed my tune, i do understand the cons of this decision but i feel that i must get on with the task at hand, and most importantly enjoy it.

[parkfell]

I totally understand your new situation, and why a sudden change of course.

Visit the ATOs websites for open days / marketing days / road shows etc and where practicable visit their establishments.
For FTE, Ryanair operate to Jerez during their summer schedule. Easyjet to Seville and train to Jerez airport.

Speak to the customers (students) and staff.

Get clued up on the aptitude testing.:)

[EC DKN]

Mainly, OAA or FTE guys aré going to FR which take modulars backgrounds. In FTE Jerez a lot of guys ended in Volotea which you have to pay 26500 for a 717 type rating. And CTC guys ended in Easyjet mostly in a Flexicrew contract. Integrated guys have to pay the type rating too!

For instance: FTE guy: 114000€ + 35000€ (FR)= 149000€!!!!! And they have just 151 hours!!!! Good business indeed! That's the real P2F, and I am not refering to FR but FTE!!!

Why Easyjet just take Integrated guys... Well because they can do that because people are allowing to do so paying the double for the sane licence with 100 hours less!

The problem with modular is that involves a proper research which can take you years! You need to avoid certain countries (go uk!) etc.

[EC DKN]

Integrated guys have to pay the TR too!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Marketing has played a big role in the last few years! I will never understand why people is in a hurry to jump straight in a jet!

Ah and the FI route it's not dead! I know several instructors (spanish) who have ended in Vueling this month!

There is much more world apart from Easy and FR!!!!!!!!

[parkfell]

Just bear in mind that any Spanish operator requires that you are fluent in Spanish, as well as English

[EC DKN]

Oh yes I am Spanish! Most of the FTE and OAA ended in FR as well as modulars! Where is the difference then? Is it worth to spend such a money and then the TR?

[pakythepilot]

In my opinion going through oaa and fte is useless at the moment unless you are willing to waste your money. Fte cadets are mainly hired by volotea and ryanair. If you end up flying for volotea, you must pay a far more expensive type rating than its average price to fly a god-forgotten plane. Nobody use a 717 anymore maybe some third countries airlines. The second officer contract will make you survive during summer seasons and make you a hopeless homeless during winter. Expect to fly 20 hours and earn 400 euros per month during winter time. Or if you're lucky enough you will end up in Ryan where modular guys are also hired but having paid one third of what fte cadets have to. Same apply to OAA. Ctc, instead, offers a wider pool of airlines like easyjet, flydubai, monarch and so on where you can earn a more respectable salary and have a better working conditions. So if integrated is your choose ctc might worth your money.

[EC DKN]

Flydubai and ctc?

[pakythepilot]

Yep. Ctc is actually selecting crew from the eu zone for flydubai. Flydubai also uses CTC as well as Emirates CAE premises for the initial type rating and conversion courses.

[EC DKN]

Experienced crew (likes of flybe), isn't it?

[parkfell]

Just to bring some of you Junior Birdmen ( a Sandy Thompson expression ) firmly back to Earth, please understand that attending any course, be it integrated or modular, is not an automatic meal ticket in this aviation game.

It is not uncommon for the QUALITY not to be up to standard, and although the MP type rating is issued, you fail to make the grade during line training.

It is not just Easyjet who have chopped budding recruits during this phase.

So I go back to what I have been saying during this thread, only the BETTER Junior Birdmen will make the grade, notwithstanding being issued with a shiny new CPL/IR.

Those who are commended on completion of the JOC/MCC course know they have the learning curve necessary for the next stages of their training.

Ask the Head of Training for a honest straight opinion. No weasel wording.

You will probably know the answer before you ask it anyway.

[Alex Whittingham]

Hi parkfell, I take your point about quality basic training. There is a long history of pilots that are barely able to hold heading and height presenting themselves for CPL courses. I do not agree with your conclusion, though, that the best bet for quality training is to go to one of the big integrated schools. If you have been in the industry for a while you will know that the pass rates at some of these schools both in groundschool exams, skills tests and IRs, have at times stood very poorly in comparison with specialist modular schools. This is old information, from about four years ago, and I do not know what the pass rates have been like in the last couple of years, it may be that they have improved. There are also persistent rumours that some airlines are dissatisfied with the quality of the output from certain integrated schools, whether this is true or not I also do not know. I notice you say Easyjet have chopped candidates in line training because of poor quality, surely all Easy's cadets are integrated? All rumours, but overall I would not be so quick to say integrated = quality.

[leedsample]

thanks guys for the advice, all is taken on board. ive decided to fit the training in with my life and to have fun with it too.

there for i have decided to do my PPL with sunrise in florida and then convert when i get back. i leave may 4th so i will do all the homework before i go. then come back have a summer muck around, then come September knuckle down until march 2016 tackling the ATPL exams and intermittently flying at newcastle air port and my skydiving dropzone C182 (if i get the nod).

then do a dirty dash back stateside to get the necessary hours before i turn up to BCFT and undertake the CPL, MEP, IR and MCC. im sure by this stage( back end of next year) i will be better equipped to make the decision on whether to undertake a MCC/JOC course together at somewhere like CRM etc.

thats my plan. lets just HOPE it works. but one things for sure ill keep trying.

[parkfell]

Hi AW

I am sure there are some excellent exclusively Modular outfits producing a high quality product. The problem for Junior Birdmen is just knowing who they are.

Integrated courses have the benefit of continuity of training, and for well motivated bright students with aptitude, the quality product should be produced.

I take your point about the source of Easyjet trainees. It would be interesting to know just how well they did in the aptitude testing / selection process, together with their progress on the integrated course?

For the avoidance of doubt, I was a self improver via the old 700 hour route, (OATS for the IR) and visited Sandy Thomson at Booker for the ATPL brush up course for the NAV block as was.

[EC DKN]

There are some good schools that they have some "links" with a major UK regional airline at EGHH! Some of these schools provide good quality training with the double of multi time requirement!

A deeply research is the "key" in the modular path!

[BAe 146-100]

there for i have decided to do my PPL with sunrise in florida and then convert when i get back.

Bearing in mind doing it like this you will have to do the full EASA PPL exams from scratch, plus be up to speed for the skills test, unlearning any bad habits you may have picked up from leaning in the States and having to learn from scratch the rt here which is completely different.

I think you should get as much professional advice you can from various schools here and abroad to be completely sure on what you are doing. You don't just want to blow this money away, when you can go for a more structured approach and get all your training in one place.

[leedsample]

ok BA advice heeded. i have now made contact with FIS (Fly/in/spain) based in jerez. i leave early may for them instead. EASA PPL good to go. cheers. just doing the web based ground theory revision now.