Canberra or RB57

[95i]

Found this interesting photo on Facebook.
First of all: Where could it be?
Is it a Canberra or an American RB57 in the middle of the photo?
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m236/95iwarzukurz/Canberrainthemiddle-small_zps23b00d47.jpg
Credits on FB
https://scontent-a-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/10537458_10153014818257731_2768321597593294307_o.jpg

[Haraka]

My bet would be an early USAF B-57. From the colour scheme possibly an RB 57A.

[95i]

British or American airfield?
Or USAF base in UK?

[Stanwell]

Looks like an American airfield to me.
I'm having trouble identifying the aircraft on the far right - Anybody?

[Terry McCassey]

OK. I'll start - A26 ?

[RedhillPhil]

I thought that all of the U.S. Canberras had tandem cockpits?

[Stanwell]

Looking again, I think you're right, Terry.

[ian16th]

Does this help?

http://i818.photobucket.com/albums/zz108/ian16th/Canberra%20-%20B57%20S.jpg

I didn't think that any B-57's had the glass bomb aimers position for visual bombing.

Also, could it be an Australian a/c?

The RAAF Canberra's were valued in 'Nam because of their visual bombing capability.

[95i]

Does the B-47 give any hints about time and whereabouts?

[one11]

Tip tanks + nose panel = an early RB-57A, so most likely somewhere in the US

[longer ron]

The B57 A was almost identical to the B2 externally so - yes the early B57's did have nose glazing !

[SpringHeeledJack]

I'd say post WW2 ;) a US base in Europe, France or Spain, though leaning towards France, early 50's.


SHJ

[oncemorealoft]

Isn't that a Blackburn Beverley in the distance behind and above the RB-47?

[oftenflylo]

C119 - surely

[Haraka]

Presuming that the aeroplane at the front right of the picture is a Curtis Pusher replica, I would tend towards the U.S.A.

Now taking a further step. Cole Palen at Old Rheinbeck ( "Planes of Fame) in NY State had a Curtis Pusher replica as well as a flying "Spad" and "Avro 504" among others in the 50's.
As , presumably these would not have made long trips together far from home, it could be that we are looking at an airfield in the North East of the U.S.A. ( near or in New York State?).

[Heathrow Harry]

not a uniform in sight

Many Natives in white shirts - no jackets or ties (= not UK)

The F-100 seems to have a serial #4175? possibly 41753???

No F-100's seem to have had a "41" serial but there are three "-X753"

55-3753 F-100D-30-NA

55-2753 F-100D-40-NH

53-1753 F-100C-01-NA

[Liffy 1M]

The same F-100 nowadays:

54-1753 USAF United States Air Force North American F-100C Super Sabre - Planespotters.net Just Aviation (http://www.planespotters.net/Aviation_Photos/photo.show?id=238309)

[95i]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153014818257731&set=gm.912796148752931&type=1&theater
Hope it works.

[Planemike]

The presence of an Avro 504 pins it down to either Australia or Canada, or somewhare close to Canada.

Planemike

[Stanwell]

.
I do think that one11 has got the 'Canberra/B57' ID right.

Also the location is definitely not Australia - Haraka is closest to the money on location, IMHO.
.

[Flybiker7000]

My first impulse was A/B 26 too, but judged at the undercarriage alone it can't be!
It looks much as the ridgid undercarriage of a DC3/A47 and might be such one :-/

[Noyade]

Plane at the far rightBiker, are you referring to this one? Definitely not a DC-3 mate.

http://i59.tinypic.com/2dtyc82.jpg

[DaveReidUK]

My money says it's Hill AFB, Utah.

[Stanwell]

Yes, thanks Noyade.
The original pic was a bit indistinct - Definitely a B26 (as they were called at that time).

The reason I go for Haraka's location is that the Avro 504, Spad and Curtiss Pusher would have been Old Rheinbeck's.

[renfrew]

The Facebook thread mentioned above suggests Stewart AFB which is near Old Rheinbeck.

[Flybiker7000]

Giving the situation a thought:
The Super Sabre would only maintain it's hype until the presence of the starfighter in '58!
It might be some kind of jubilee, but in absence of (at least) the P-51 it can't be in connection of the second war.
If it's in connection with the first war, would the Starfighter have replaced the Super Sabre for the 40-year jubilee of the end of war late 1918.
Could it be 40-year jubilee of the outbreak of WW1 in august 1914 - Being august 1954!?

[SpringHeeledJack]

Isn't that a Blackburn Beverley in the distance behind and above the RB-47?

I thought it was a French Breguet (?) fat military plane with the tricolour on the tail fin. The building behind doesn't look American and the clothing of the visitors seems very old fashioned. My enlarging of the photo pixilated the heck out of the details :}


SHJ

[Flybiker7000]

Noyade: where do that resolution come from?
It's surely not a DC3 and on the high-res I can see it's the prop wich gives the impression of the sturdu DC3 undercarriage!
I vote for the A/B 26! ;-)

[Noyade]

Noyade: where do that resolution come from?There is a link to Facebook under the photo in the first post which has better resolution.

https://scontent-a-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/10537458_10153014818257731_2768321597593294307_o.jpg

[ian16th]

This is the higher res pic returned to B&W
http://i818.photobucket.com/albums/zz108/ian16th/Can%20B57%202.jpg

[Stanwell]

Righto,
Of the ones in the distance, the one on the right looks like a CV340/C131, the middle one, as has been suggested, is a C119 but the one behind that has me scratching my head.


The one on the far left of the hardstand would be a B50 because of the engine.
EDIT: Or, thinking about it, more likely a C97.
.

[oncemorealoft]

Thanks for the higher resolution. I can now see it's definitely not a Beverley and certainly something twin boom. Noratlas or C119 I just can't tell.

But now the extra detail un-peels another layer: go above the B47's cockpit, there are four aircraft in the far distance, the one on the right, a taildragger, but the one on the left looks like it may have a swept vertical fin! What might that be?

[Stanwell]

oncemore,
Sorry, I didn't pick up the one to the right of the CV340/C131 - That looks very much like a Dak to me.

[SpringHeeledJack]

The twin boomer looks like a C-119 on that higher resolution photo, but the one to it's left looks like a B29 with some kind of underslung load/modification. Some kind of early AWACS testbed perhaps ?


SHJ

[treadigraph]

I'd say that's definitely Cole Palen's Spad.

Background on the right, I'd say C-47, 2 C-131s and a B-50. On the left, C-119 and B-50.

[Spooky 2]

I thought fore it was a Martin B26 but upon closer examination one can see that the landing gear struts are not the same.

Martin B-26 Marauder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_B-26_Marauder#mediaviewer/File:Martin_B-26G_in_Dayton.jpg)

[Stanwell]

That original image wasn't the best.
It's a North American B26 (previously and latterly, A26).

[Rebuilder]

The first batch of US built Canberras were virtually a copy of the British B2, not sure of the exact number but it is in the order of 74, before the rotary bomb bay, modified air brakes and underwing pylons were installed. The tandem cockpit followed shortly after.
I also believe the aircraft on the far right to be an Invader.

[ICT_SLB]

Forbes Field, Topeka, KS (FOE) has an early RB-57/Canberra as a gate guardian that was part of the Combat Air Museum collection.
Warbirds and Airshows - Kansas Gate Guards (http://www.warbirdsandairshows.com/kansasgateguards.htm) I believe it came over as pattern airframe for the original Martin build. The CAM also now has a tandem-cockpit RB-57 as well.

[Haraka]

The F100C seems to put the image , at its earliest, as 1955. Cole Palen didn't acquire Old Rheinbeck until 1959 , however the aircraft were reportedly stored near Poughkeepsie in NY State.( Note that the SPAD ( an XIII) and the 504 are not those examples latterly in the collection.)
Re the probable B-29 in the centre background. It might be that it has its bomb doors open
Perhaps identification of the large building on the hill in the distance could clinch the airfield's location?

[Stanwell]

By gee, you guys must have a better pic than the one I'm getting.

All I can see of the Boeing on the hardstand is the left wing outboard of #2 engine.
As for those aircraft behind the C131, identification is difficult from the best image I've got.

Well then, Haraka, the provenance of the 504, Spad and Flyer is going to be interesting.


EDIT: OK treadi, I'll grant you a B50 with the dark tail behind the C131, but the tail on the one behind the C119 doesn't look B50 - more B29, if anything.
Also, the reason for my thinking the Boeing on the hardstand is a B50/C97 is because of the engine intakes.
.

[Noyade]

Evening Stanwell.

All I can see of the Boeing on the hardstand is the left wing outboard of #2 engine.Mate, I think others are looking waaay in the background at the other B-29/tanker left of the odd-looking tailed (to my eyes) Fairchild...

http://i61.tinypic.com/2lcrb7n.jpg

I was thinking of water behind those trees? Selfridge AFB?

Wherever it is, it would have been nice to be there that day. Fascinating aircraft with few people about.

[Haraka]

From Wickie
In 1951, Roosevelt Field closed and plans were laid for a vast shopping center to be built on the site. Accordingly the World War I aircraft were put up for sale. The Smithsonian had already acquired three of the aircraft so Cole quickly bid his life savings for the remainder. Soon thereafter he found himself the proud owner of a SPAD XIII, Avro 504K, Curtiss Jenny, Standard J-l, Aeromarine 39B and Sopwith Snipe. He was given just thirty days to remove the aircraft from Roosevelt Field, which required nine 200-mile round trips to the family home where they were stored in abandoned chicken coops.
If the Pusher replica is the one subsequently built by Palen, then that probably puts the picture as no later than 1957. when he "crashed it at an air show". ( Where?).

[Stanwell]

Thanks Noyade & Haraka.
You guys must have some good gear to be able to achieve such clarity from that image.

[Noyade]

Morning Hakara.

Cole Palen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cole_Palen)

Reading that site, do you get the impression his aircraft were stored in those chicken-coops - until 1959?

Is it possible that the three biplanes in this photo are unrelated to Palen and his future aerodrome?

[Noyade]

Hard to tell, but does the Curtiss look kinda small?

http://i59.tinypic.com/2im27gn.jpg

Tallman owned a 3/4 scale replica Curtiss, under the US Civil Air Register known as a JP-1 Pruett Pusher (see Aerofiles).

But that would make this thread's photo at least 1960.

Frank Tallman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Tallman)

http://i61.tinypic.com/a4lpug.jpg

[Haraka]

Hi Noyade,
It's a good point and certainly there has been more than one Curtiss Pusher replica over the years.
If ,following on from the Wicki reference , you look up "Lafayette Escadrille" you will see that it was released in March 1958, so probably it was filmed in 1957.
Palen made some money by hiring some of his aircraft out for that film ( The SPAD seems to fit there) so in 1957 at least some of them weren't packed up in "chicken coops."
I think the balance of probability (and the rareness of types like the 504 in the USA) leans towards the likelihood of these being Palen's.
P.S. According to IMDB,
Shooting took place October 19 to December 8, 1956
I've now just realised , reading about the Bleriot "Penguins " built by Paul Mantz, that I saw this film in U.K. as a lad with my father. under the title "Hell Bent For Glory"
(In those days films for me usually fell in to two categories. (i) Films about aeroplanes and (ii) Films that I wasn't allowed to see . :))

[Noyade]

I think the balance of probability (and the rareness of types like the 504 in the USA) leans towards the likelihood of these being Palen's. Fair enough.

Just noticed on that site another image has been uploaded, most likely from the same day, this time a Bleriot!...

http://i60.tinypic.com/295qopd.jpg

Just seems strange to me that more isn't known about this event. It would have been a BIG day for Palen, no?

Cheers!

[DaveReidUK]

If the Pusher replica is the one subsequently built by Palen

There have been at least 30 Pusher replicas built. I don't see any compelling reason why the one in the photo should be that one.

[DaveReidUK]

The same F-100 nowadays:

54-1753 USAF United States Air Force North American F-100C Super Sabre - Planespotters.net Just Aviation (http://www.planespotters.net/Aviation_Photos/photo.show?id=238309)

Not quite.

The Dyess F-100C is actually 54-1752 painted as 54-1753. The real 54-1753, formerly at the USAF Museum, is now on display at the Southern Museum of Flight, Birmingham AL, looking distinctly tattier:

http://www.warbirdregistry.org/jetregistry/images/f100-541753-1.jpg

[treadigraph]

Stanwell, agreed B-29, hadn't realised how tall the B-50's fin is!

[ian16th]

The 'enhancements' that I have done to the photo's on this thread were done with some FREE s/w called Ifranview.

It is available here: IrfanView - Official Homepage - one of the most popular viewers worldwide (http://www.irfanview.com/)

I have a copy of Mike Vines book 'Return to Rhinebeck', if anyone wants scans from it, PM me.

Further Old Rhinebeck, if you are ever in the area on a Sunday in season GO!

It was the best day out I ever had in the USA.

[India Four Two]

The Facebook thread mentioned above suggests Stewart AFB which is near Old Rheinbeck.

Looking on GE, there are some hills within the airport perimeter at Stewart, with building foundations on the tops.

Stewart is 15nm from Poughkeepsie and 30nm from Old Rheinbeck, so a manageable cross-country distance for Cole's aircraft.

[Haraka]

Hi Noyade,
I noted your comment,
Hard to tell, but does the Curtiss look kinda small?

Rough and ready but should be O.K. to tell the difference :
Enlarge the image around it to also include the F 100C.
The sun is fairly high so the shadows are pretty representative.
Note the the aircraft are parked almost orthogonally to the line of folks on crowd line.
Take a ruler.
Look in to an estimated mid -fuselage shadow of the Hun and use it as an end point. ( You can't see the entire wing shadow unfortunately) . Now track along to the right parallel to the crowd line until you intersect an imaginary line coming forward from the wingtip at 90 deg to that line ( the concrete slab lines closely approximate this). Multiply this measurement by two to get full span.
Then measure the length of the shadow of the Pusher wing on the tarmac.
The Span of a Hun is around 38.75 ft - the pusher about the same if it is a full size replica : Around 28.5 ft for a 75 % item
.
P.S. Ian 16th :I have just checked out Irfan view with a designer mate in the imagery enhancement business. His comments:
Irfanview is an excellent standard tool. It has also been officially recognized by the EXIF community as a reference for EXIF metadata handling. A brilliant tool!
Many thanks Ian , I shall be downloading it .

[DaveReidUK]

The Facebook thread mentioned above suggests Stewart AFB

That distinctive hangar with three rows of windows visible in the top LH of the picture doesn't feature in any of the historical photos of Stewart AFB that I can find.

[Flybiker7000]

Haraka:
Without actual measuring the shadows it's easy to see that the center of the F-100 fuselage shadow lies just as much to the left of a line between the concrete-slabs as the shadow of it's port wingtip does to the next line.
With other words, it's wingspan is equal to two concrete slabs.
The pusher is parked in a way as it is easy to tell that the port wingtip is about a yard on the inside of such line and the starboard wingtip more likely two yards inside the contemporary line - In other words: The pusher is 3 yards less wide than the Super Sabre!
Matches fine with Your estimate of about 10 feet in difference for a 75% replica!

[Haraka]

If you say so . :)

[ian16th]

Haraka
I shall be downloading it . Don't forget the Add Ons.

Disclaimer. I have no commercial interest in Ifranview, just a happy user for many years.

[Flybiker7000]

Irfan Wiev have been my companion since my earliest connection to the web.
It's actual less than ten days since I told my daughter about it for simple picture handling as her Open Office couldn't do the simple task of rotating pictures and scale them down to only neccesary size to able a document with several pictures to be E-mailed:-o
Sadly it's not available for the Ipad on wich the majority of my IT-work is done these days, but at least the original picture program have the most common features.

[Heathrow Harry]

I wonder if it's Albany?

Th e layout is about right and it has a lot of trees around it - and not far from Old Rhinebeck

[DaveReidUK]

Assuming that you mean Albany, NY, I'm not aware of any military connection that would account for all those USAF aircraft lying around the field.

Nor can I find any historical photos of it with that distinctive hangar.

[DougGordon]

I think the F-100C is FW-954 of the 4510th Combat Crew Training Wing based at Luke AFB AZ in 1958. It is the wing commanders aircraft wearing the fuselage stripes of each of the five squadrons.

[DaveReidUK]

I think the F-100C is FW-954 of the 4510th Combat Crew Training Wing based at Luke AFB AZ in 1958. It is the wing commanders aircraft wearing the fuselage stripes of each of the five squadrons.

We've already established that it's 54-1753.

Both the serial and the buzz number FW-753 are clearly visible in the hi-res version of the photo (see link in the very first post).

[DougGordon]

Apologies! I paid more attention to the markings and didn't see the buzz no clearly.
Back to the drawing board as far as the markings are concerned.
However, the markings seem to be the same. I can't find a match anywhere else.
Can anyone read the name on the nose?
URL=http://s616.photobucket.com/user/DougGordon/media/F-100C4510CCTW19582.jpg.html]http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt248/DougGordon/F-100C4510CCTW19582.jpg[/URL]

[DaveReidUK]

Can anyone read the name on the nose?

"F-100C 41753 was named and christened "Susan Constant" by Mrs. W.S. Morrison, wife of the Speaker of England's House of Commons, in London on May 12, 1957, in commemoration of the 350th anniversary of the founding of Jamestown, Virginia."

And from Wikipedia: Susan Constant, captained by Christopher Newport, was the largest of three ships of the English Virginia Company (the others being Discovery and Godspeed) on the 1606-1607 voyage that resulted in the founding of Jamestown in the new Colony of Virginia.

[DougGordon]

Thank you Dave for keeping me on my toes!
Belonged to the 452nd Fighter Day Squadron, 322nd FDW. The other two aircraft named in the UK were after the other two ships you mentioned: God Speed and Discovery.
In early May 1957 six aircraft deployed to RAF Bentwaters from Foster AFB, Texas. On the 11th May they flew to Heathrow for the ceremony on the Sunday, 12th May.
The three named aircraft left Heathrow on the 13th May and arrived at Jamestown 7h33m later, being refuelled by KB-50s of the 429th Air Refuelling Squadron en route.

[DaveReidUK]

The three named aircraft left Heathrow on the 13th May and arrived at Jamestown 7h33m later, being refuelled by KB-50s of the 429th Air Refuelling Squadron en route.I thought I recognised the Fairey hangar in your photo!

Incidentally, the other 3 F-100s overflew Jamestown and continued to Los Angeles, setting a new world distance record for single-engined aircraft of 5835 nm.

[A30yoyo]

And distantly behind that the National Physical Laboratory's Ship Testing Tank at North feltham ....didn't they test the bouncing bomb design there?

[Haraka]

Just looked across on the Facebook site. It looks like a couple of guys familiar with Stewart AFB in the past , one of whom at least served there, seem fairly confident that's the location of the image.
The F100C puts it certainly no earlier than 1955 and with everything else it seems not unreasonable to assume that the Pusher is likely to have been Palen's , before he wrote it off.

[DaveReidUK]

It looks like a couple of guys familiar with Stewart AFB in the past , one of whom at least served there, seem fairly confident that's the location of the image.The comment on the FB thread from the ex-ANG guy looks like it may be a reference to the photo of the F-86D and Bleriot, which isn't confirmed as being the same field as the B-57 photo.

[Haraka]

I don't think so :
Looking at :
https://www.facebook.com/groups/oldrhinebeckaerodrome/permalink/912796148752931/

"Mike G Lockhart Maybe Stewart AFB back in the day."

January 31 at 5:14pm ·

This guy is commenting before the F86/Bleriot shot was posted . ( February 1 at 8:20am )( I.e.about the original image we were discussing - to which the following comments apply:

Gil Halpin I think Mikes Guess is correct,it does look like Stewart back in the day
February 1 at 12:49pm

LeRoy Hogan Yeah the little hill looks familiar and the old hanger. I was in the air guard on that side of the base.
February 2 at 9:35pm
In any event the OP Comments about the second shot : "Okay...Here's another view, most likely from the same show as in the original post."

I would think most folks looking at the Facebook posting would probably concur.

[DaveReidUK]

I agree that the F-86 photo probably was taken at Stewart. F-86s were based there during most of the 1950s.

It appears to be taken on the old USAF ramp (now the terminal of Stewart International Airport) with Stewart's distinctive wedge-shaped hill in the background:

http://www.radomes.org/museum/photos/recent/Stewart052.jpg

But the FB poster doesn't offer any reason for his "most likely from the same show" assertion, and neither the hill nor the hangars are the same ones as in the B-57 photo.

[Haraka]

The" B-57" photo is demonstrably the one that the three posters Lockhart, Halpin, and Hogan( who himself served on the base) ,are referring to when giving their opinions regarding the likelihood of it being taken at Stewart. AFB .
The image you have helpfully provided also shows similar forestation to that visible in the background of the B-57 image.

[DaveReidUK]

The image you have helpfully provided also shows similar forestation to that visible in the background of the B-57 image.I beg to differ. The profile of the hill is different. Also, where's the hangar with the curved roof that's in the middle background of the B-57 photo?

[Haraka]

Forestation is not the same as topography.
I have not evaluated the orientation of the ground photography and have insufficient detailed information to do so, as data recording the likely large changes in usage over time of whatever base this is are not in ready supply ( to me at least) The Stewart AFB suggestion comes from Americans more familiar with their country than I am. So what they do say regarding likely location seems more reasoned than, for example, suggesting a fairly arid scrub-land base in Utah, situated between high mountains and a large salt lake.
Purely from an assessment of the aircraft on site, I am sure it is post early 1955, ( the F100C) and if it is a Palen's first Curtis Pusher ( as the OP on FB has independently suggested) then that puts it as likely to be pre-1958 ,possibly backed up the presence of the SPADXIII and Avro 504.
Do note that I hold no absolute opinion yet on that Bleriot's provenance.
Lets see what develops.

[DaveReidUK]

I am sure it is post early 1955, ( the F100C)The name on the Super Sabre is visible in the photo (see previous posts), so unlikely to be any earlier than 1957.

[Haraka]

I certainly wouldn't argue with 1957.
Then the gathering could be for many reasons including , just possibly the 10th anniversary of the founding of the USAF.