Flying School feedback shutdown

[glenb]

Understandably the Mods just closed a post, with a potential new Pilot inquiring about a school recommendation.

He had only a very small number of Posts, starting out in the industry, with no idea of the PPrune history behind that decision to close the post. He joined in the last two weeks. No doubt an enthusiastic starter. An unfortunate early experience in the industry.

Anyway, "Radiodude" or any other potential starter out there. A tip. Narrow your decision down to two schools. Approach each of the CFIs independently on different weeks over your next holiday. Have a BAK textbook in hand. Ask if you could drop yourself in the school for a week for some quiet study of your book, in a conducive atmosphere. After you invest a week in each school, you will know. Your discussions with students undertaking training, observing how staff interact with students, listening how maintenance issues are being handled, are the students getting treated with respect, are they being briefed etc, etc.

More often than not. One school will stand out. It could well be a different school for different people. Trust me, there are a lot worse ways to invest a couple of weeks, and you will have a good head start on your Ground Studies. Good Luck mate!

[tecman]

I don't understand why we in Aust are apparently such delicate flowers in this regard. Discussions about the merits of individual establishments seem to be part and parcel of the UK PPrune threads. The smug 'find out for yourself' in response to a newcomers's enquiry always leaves me cold. There will usually be positive and negative comments, but that's part of life in the internet age. Restaurateurs seem to cope.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Negative comments can lead to legal threats against Pprune.

Positive comments are often blatent advertising.

Any "Which Flying School" threads will be closed for those reasons.

If you think the decision is wrong all of you are free to start your own internet forum.

[DeltaT]

So why can't this website indemnify itself and say they are not responsible for what is posted? Seems to work in many other situations in the world.

No legal action against pprune over the discussion of pay rates, and working life experiences etc that all can similarly reflect good and badly on an employer? That all gets discussed here too.

[Squawk7700]

90% of the time these threads start up, along comes half a dozen freshly registered users offering their "advice" about how great (or not) the school in question is. Inevitably these users are employees of the school or the same person registering multiple times.

There is no value in receiving advice from these users.

[Pinky the pilot]

There is no value in receiving advice from these users.

Indeed, Squark7700.:ok: I disregard any posts re how good/bad any Flying School is and read them for 'entertainment' value only!:}

I find it amusing to try to work out who the employee/disgruntled student or ex employees are.:E

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

DeltaT like I said, if you think it should be OK then by all means start your own pilot forum.

In the meantime these kinds of threads will be closed.

Squawk7700 has pretty much nailed it! :ok:

[DickyPearse]

CFI:


Squawk7700 has pretty much nailed it!

Indeed he did. The well reasoned argument was better than:

If you think the decision is wrong all of you are free to start your own internet forum

Set the standard for the discussion and maintain the moral high ground when you have to deal with the trolls.

[scavenger]

So why is it permissible for the LoP zealots to advertise their course in threads?

[Squawk7700]

APS / LOP is not-for-profit.... There's your reason.

Someone is actually doing something beneficial for the industry and not profiting from it :ok:

[50 50]

I'm not profiting from this industry either

[DeltaT]

Make it that posts can only be made after x time (days?) from new registration

[jas24zzk]

Flying Schools are Flying schools....well almost.
Sure they can all offer different environments, but the most important things to look for are

1) Instructor Stability...can I fly with the same person each week, or am I going to be shuffled.

2) Can I relate to the instructor? If you think the instructor is a knob, then what you will learn each flight will slow you down.

The greatest School on the planet may not have an instructor that you can work with. (same goes for Schools/Teachers...the younger members here thinking about it could probably relate better than us old fogies)


I moved schools after completion of my training. When I next met with the owner of the original school he asked me straight about why I moved....I told him straight as well, that it was all about the instructor. When I told him who had taken over my training, his response was that he wished that person worked for him, and that he was probably one of the few suited to my personality ....

glenb makes some very valid points as well....not all schools will accommodate students lounging around to study. some will encourage it, others will let it happen, and hang around qualified pilots will help out just to talk aeroplanes...as what happens where i fly now

[Clare Prop]

I'd have thought it would be a bit unwise for anyone to pick a school based on something an anonymous stranger has said on an internet forum.

Each school has its own style and the stude needs to go there and look around to see if they think the environment suits them.

I've seen those sorts of threads deteriorate into some really nasty rhetoric.

[tail wheel]

So why can't this website indemnify itself and say they are not responsible for what is posted? Seems to work in many other situations in the world.

Simply because PPRuNe is the publisher and is thus legally responsible for what is published on this site. There have been incidents over the years, including legal action initiated by certain international airlines and individuals, when offended or maligned parties have resorted to legal process to obtain details of PPRuNe users, to the financial and in some cases vocational detriment of those users.

The PPRuNe publisher is domicile in California and litigant use the simple and inexpensive SLAPP Subpoena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation) to discover PPRuNe user details - as some PPRuNe user have discovered to their detriment. The Moderators have a duty of care to our users and a responsibility to the PPRuNe publishers.

So why can't this website indemnify itself and say they are not responsible for what is posted?

Because lack of knowledge of the law is no defence. A news paper or TV station is liable for all it publishes; so is PPRuNe. I suggested recently to PC Plod that my vehicle caused an overspeed on a down hill run, resulting in my car travelling at 72 kms in a 60 zone. Plod suggested that I should have been aware of the overspeed, however he felt it reasonable I pay the $151 fine on behalf of my car! Anyone have any Queensland demerit points they may care to donate to a worthy cause?

I'd have thought it would be a bit unwise for anyone to pick a school based on something an anonymous stranger has said on an internet forum.

I recall some years ago that one flying training industry person had over 20 PPRuNe user identities (I think it was 28 we found?) and would regularly pose as a newbie seeking advice on a suitable training establishment, then post numerous, glowing recommendations from various user names, for the training establishment he owned. That is why Mods can see the IP address of all users and easily search and compare user IP addresses.

I'd have serious concerns for the gullibility of any person that took seriously any advice about flying training posted on an anonymous internet bulletin board! If anyone thinks this anonymous web site is 100% credible in it's flying training advice, I have a very nice bridge for sale in Sydney, on special this week.......

Make it that posts can only be made after x time (days?) from new registration

Our anti spam already scans, captures and queues for Moderation any posts by new users with less than 10 posts, that contains certain words, phrases or links. It is not perfect and some subjective posts do slip through. If we captured and queued for moderation all of the first ten posts by all new users, we would need a veritable army of Moderators.

So why is it permissible for the LoP zealots to advertise their course in threads?

We have received complaints from these organisations that their threads are being shut down. The reason is simple; PPRuNe is publishing "advice" on the operation of an aircraft which may or may not be in accordance or in conflict with the manufacturer's recommendations, advice or instructions or the regulatory authority legislation. As such, in the event of an accident/incident PPRuNe may be potentially liable for what has been published and the resultant accident/incident. At very least, PPRuNe could be caught in the flood of subpoenas and summons issued and served in common law matters. Been there, done that, not interested in a repeat performance.

No doubt these people provide an excellent service and forum for pilots to learn more about their aircraft engines, but please, not through PPRuNe.

Our official PPRuNe advice: read the aircraft manufacturers operating manual.

PPRuNe and it's Mods can't keep all the people happy all the time but we do try to keep some people happy some of the time. And some people unhappy most of the time! :E

Finally and philosophically the Professional Pilots Rumour and News (PPRuNe) Australia, New Zealand and the Pacific forums are specifically and primarily for news and reliable rumours with credibility and integrity, by and for the interest of professional pilots operating in this region. We have other forums dedicated to tech junkies, newbies, plane spotters etc.

[tecman]

Tail wheel, thanks for taking the time to set down a detailed reply. I understand the points you're making and, in the limit, it's indeed a publisher's right to pursue nearly any policy they like. At the same time, if the feedback of readers is of any interest at all, there is a bit recorded here.

One point that does still puzzle me is the apparent difference between the UK and Australian threads. I can occasionally read posts describing the relative merits of the 3 flying schools at the Lower Spewing (or whatever) airfield, but not similar comparisons at Jandakot, Bankstown etc. Even half-intelligent readers of internet material, or newspaper or other print reviews, understand that all comments are to be calibrated against a range of possible self-interest factors. But providing they are fair comment, it's all grist for the mill. It is useful to have this sort of commentary in the public domain, if only to balance and complement the stereotypical, cloying "learning to fly" pulp served up by the aviation magazines.

It's always "reader beware" of course but, as one UK poster noted, he's a novice pilot but not a novice human. No reason in principle why fair comparative comment about the basics of the flying training business should not be available, if not on PPRune, then elsewhere.

Re-reading your post, I wondered if you're saying that such a thread would work, but not in the Aust/NZ area of PPrune. The reminder about material aimed at professional pilot's is well taken but of course that boundary is pushed in other directions on many, many occasions.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Thank you Tailwheel.

My reason for being somewhat brusque about this is that although people have agreed to the terms and conditions when they join Pprune, whenever a thread like that is moderated, and it will always need moderating, there are always going to be people wailing about censorship and their imagined rights to free speech. :mad:

So I usually pre-empt that by telling people they can say what they like if they take full responsibility for it ie become their own publisher of their own internet forum.

[tail wheel]

You are correct CFI. If a thread is moderated, deleted or locked, there are extremely good reasons why which may not always be apparent to the users. Often ... mostly ... if is not possible for a Mod to explain the reasons why.

tecman. Yes, some "what school" threads survive in the appropriate flying training PPRuNe forum but generally not in any regional forum. Also, the UK forums have not had the problems of multiple "personalities" and trolls that we've experienced in the Australian forums.

[DeltaT]

Perhaps the pprune server can be relocated to the Departure lounge of a Russian airport? I think there is someone called Snowden who might be looking for a job there.
Or take on the hydra technique of some torrent sites, shut one and two will start up?
But yes, thank you for the explanation, it is interesting to learn about such things.

What is the legal stand point if a post is started with "In my opinion..." -Does that then not separate it from making out to be fact? and no come back on the website?

[Arm out the window]

Fair points in the main, but one of the most beneficial sides of bulletin boards like these is the free and honest exchange of information.

How do trip advisor and the like get away with having people put frank statements about their impressions of various tours and hotels, if the website owner is somehow responsible for what's said by individuals?

Obviously it's a fine line, but I reckon if a flying school's worth its salt it should welcome criticism and/or plaudits as appropriate. The pool of individuals involved in Australian flying is small enough that if attempts are made to sling mud, the truth will surface quickly enough.

[tail wheel]

Part of our problem is the Californian SLAPP legislation, a unique and nasty bit of legalised censorship that affects all who operate a business or have servers in California.

Defamation law is probably similar in the USA and Australia, the difference is that it is far harder to identify and sue anyone that posts to a bulletin board when the business and servers are located in Australia.

[mcgrath50]

I actually believe defamation law is stronger here than the US (in general) hence why you don't here Fox News and CNN say "allegedly" quite as much as our news organisations/gossip mags. :ok:

[DeltaT]

Points 4,5,6 seem relevant

Defenses to Claims of Internet Defamation:

You may need a defamation lawyer if you are wrongfully accused of defamation on the internet. An attorney who specializes in internet defamation matters understands what it will take and what it will cost to defend your case. There are a number of legal defenses to a claim of defamation and many states have anti-SLAPP statutes which provide leverage against bogus claims of defamation. Here are some of the more common arguments an internet defamation lawyer might make in defense of a lawsuit, threat letter and/or claim of internet libel (written) or slander (oral statement):

1 The “Truth” Defense: One of the traditional battlegrounds in any defamation lawsuit is the fundamental issue of whether the statement made on a web site was in fact true. An experienced defamation law attorney will tell you that if the statement is true, it typically cannot be defamatory.

2 Defend Defamation claims with a “Privilege:” Typically, statements made in court or statements made within a government body can be considered “privileged.” These statements are often protected under all circumstances, even when the statements are knowingly false. A qualified privilege typically exists for journalists who are reporting on public events. Such privilege can protect publishers and newspapers against claims of defamation except when accompanied by malicious intent.

3 “Good Faith Belief” Libel Defense: When a statement is made with a good faith belief that the statement is in fact true, every internet defamation lawyer knows that is more difficult to plead and prove the elements of defamation. For instance, if someone reads an article in a newspaper, they can generally believe that the statement is in fact true. Good libel lawyers know, however, that a statement posted on a blog or web site on the internet may affect the degree of trustworthiness of the statement.

4 The Best Way For a Defamation Lawyer To Defend a Defamation Claim: An experienced defamation lawyer will tell you that statements of opinion are protected by the First Amendment right to freedom of speech: If the statement made is one of opinion, it typically enjoys broad First Amendment protection. Opinions are by their very nature not capable of being established as either true or false.

5 Commentary on matters for public interest: When someone makes a statement in the reasonable belief on a matter of public interest such as an official act or government undertaking, such statements typically enjoy protection.

6 Innocent Publication and Dissemination Defense: When a defendant had no actual knowledge that the statement of fact was defamatory, the publication of the information can be said to be “innocent” and thus, not actionable.

7 Statute of Limitations For Defamation: The most common defense to the filing of a lawsuit alleging defamation, libel or slander is statute of limitations. Statute of limitations is different in various jurisdictions. Consult with an internet defamation attorney in order to calculate the period that likely applies in your matter.