Emirates Illuminati/Do not Fly EK Websites

[CaptLeazinho]

Hello Guys,

Newbie here, Im a 767 FO in the Land of Smiles , and with high hopes of joining EK in the near future, been doing my HW and a little concerned about the posts on this two websites .... any light that could be shone in regards to them ?
Making me doubt about my application , and if EK is the right place to continue my air chauffeuring career.

[The Turtle]

You would be only the second L.O.S pilot (that I am aware of) to join EK.

I can think of many (me included) that would join a L.O.S based airline.

Think really hard about this decision

Jing jing!

[jack schidt]

Leaz, the money in EK is not bad but you can consider it as danger money, loss of home life as you know it, overworked with ULR to cope with ontop of that, seriously crap management and absolutely NO consideration for you as a person. Go ahead and bring your family here, flying from Damascus might be a better option soon.

GL

Jack

[harry the cod]

May I offer a suggestion. Firstly, apply. Then, if successful, come over for the 2-3 day selection process. Bring your partner and spend another day here if possible, ideally with someone you know who lives and works here. If you pass and are offered a job, you can then base your decision on what you've seen and heard from your own first hand experience rather than that of mainly negative posts from the same posters. Having a partner in agreement can not be over emphasised! This is a big decision for you AND them.

Life is not perfect here. You will work hard and rules and regulations will be stretched to facilitate commercial operations and keep senior managers in their well paid jobs. There are no unions and morale is currently low amongst front line operational staff (pilots, engineers, cabin crew, check in staff etc). It has been on and off for the last 7 years I'd say, particularly bad within the last 18 months or so. There will be lots and lots of little niggles that may either eat away at you or you will choose to ignore. If you can ignore the incompetence, bureaucracy, backstabbing, nepotism and general racial discrimination that is evident in this Company, you'll have a good time here. Go to work, enjoy the flying, go home and spend as much time as you can with family and friends. Do not become a slave to work.

The pay is good, extensive route network, good colleagues (mostly), improving training culture and, no doubt expect to be corrected on this, pretty good staff travel. Along with Provident fund, accommodation, medical benefits and other perks, as a pilot you're pretty well looked after. I know relative senior guys in BA who are on the B747-400 who constantly complain and work almost as hard for three quarters of the salary after tax. Their pension has been steadily eroded through both Company and government policy changes. Dubai is a love it or hate it place. Again, it's what you make of it and whether you're prepared to make it your 'home'. Those that do, with family and commitments here tend to settle better and last longer than those that commute or view it as a temporary move.

Ultimately, you have to decide if it's the place for you and your circumstances. It very much depends on what you have now, what you can have and what can be offered here that will make the move significantly more worthwhile.

Don't be put off by the posts here, but do think long and hard before accepting that final offer. Good luck in your choice.

Harry

[Nikita81]

@CaptLeazinho

Since my website is mentioned here I felt like saying a few words.

My intention was not to discourage people from working with EK. When I am asked about EK I always give the same answer as harry the cod - go and see for yourself. There is one difference though:

There will be lots and lots of little niggles that may either eat away at you or you will choose to ignore. If you can ignore the incompetence, bureaucracy, backstabbing, nepotism and general racial discrimination that is evident in this Company, you'll have a good time here.

I don't see how you can ignore if someone discriminates you, back-stabs you, doesn't give you a chance to advance in your profession or lowers the quality of your life by mismanaging the company, which reflects as constant fatigue, lack of personal life and benefits deterioration.

Maybe pilots have good packages which allow them to be happier after all. I must say that I am not familiar with this, my blog is not about pilots and, therefore it's not the relevant place for you to search the info regarding pilot's life in EK.

Good luck!

[vfenext]

Oh no she's back. Don't forget to tell us about how you never got your end of service benefit. Yawn!!!

[Nikita81]

Oh no she's back. Don't forget to tell us about how you never got your end of service benefit. Yawn!!!

I won't, no worries.

On the other hand, you don't forget to tell us why you are spamming this thread with irrelevant and dumb comments?

I am resistant to any kind of bullying including yours. Keep spamming and bullying and you will be left with no balls to play with at the end of our game.

You can say that EK has taught me how to play that game.

[nolimitholdem]

hahah! vfenext gets owned by Dragana, once again.

If you can ignore the incompetence, bureaucracy, backstabbing, nepotism and general racial discrimination that is evident in this Company, you'll have a good time here.

Yeah, just a few little "niggles". :rolleyes:

And that's just the short list.

It is s sick system, that survives on the backs of its overworked understaffed employees. It is not sustainable in its current form. There is a growing sense of this, even in management, as they attempt to tighten the grip in knee-jerk reaction. But with the cabin crew at least, they've already hit the point of diminishing returns. Like getting behind the power curve, it will be very difficult to recover, and possibly, non-recoverable.

[CaptLeazinho]

@TheTurtle : The situation in LOS isn't as good as it seems .... lots of trouble with different companies , including JetAsia owned by the Saba Mafia.. but thats a story for another thread...

@Jack Schidt : Damascus sounds interesting LOL

@Harry The Cod : Thanks for the advice.

@Nikita81 : Your website might talk about CC but it reflects a problem of all the company, might be the same in the FlightOps dept.

@vfenext : Please go troll somewhere else , Im asking for good info, and your post brings nothing of value to my question.

@NoLimitHold'em : vfenext totally owned by Nikita81.

Cheers

[VLS with ice]

If you have a reasonably safe job that pays the bills and you are not miserable doing what you do now, it's easy......stay away!

[harry the cod]

Nolimitholdem

I guess some of us are better than others at ignoring those little 'niggles' then.....eh? ;)

As for the cabin crew issues, I guess that's one big 'niggle' the Company can no longer afford to ignore. Having the DSVP invite all to an open forum to discuss any issue they may have is certainly a first. Dates in February to be advised......watch this space!

Harry

[Three Wire]

It is not actually. The Head of Engineering conducted an all engineers meeting over 20 years ago. Some non-engineers were posted at suitable point with pencil and paper to note down names of those who spoke up.

Nothing changed until Adel was appointed.

[Alconguin Crusader]

Harry it is much easier for you to ignore all the little things because you came from such a crap airline.
Capt L when you get your information be sure to take into account where the poster is basing his experiences on. Harry is basing his on the crap UK holiday market. We are all now flying an international wide body operation.
The other wide body airlines in the sand pay more than Emirates and work less hours. In addition to those big items the other airlines have upgrade times considerably less than Emirates to the tune of 5-6 years less upgrade time. Look into those other airlines first before Emirates.

[Calmcavok]

We are all now flying an international wide body operation.

Wrong. We are flying for a ME (international widebody operation) airline. All of the ME airlines have significant downsides. Life is no better at QR or EY, just different. The manure comes from the back end of a different horse. As Harry says, it's how you deal with the niggles/massive irritants that will define your time here. This is not, nor never will be, a legacy type airline. There are opportunities and costs associated with that, and of course I want it to be better here, however my hopes for that are tempered by the reality.

Come and see for yourself and chat long to mates in the region. It's different strokes for different folks. Personally I'm ok with it, my bucket of poop is still pretty empty.

[harry the cod]

CaptLeazinho (although more in response to my eternal nemesis, the Crusader from Alconguin!

I'm basing my comments on what I have now, not what I used to experience in my previous life so please ignore AC and his stuck record. This Company has never, to date, laid off pilots due to economic downturns, unlike some of our cousins from across the pond. Unions? Yep, just ask how effective they were at protecting hundreds of pilots pensions when Northwest filed for Chapter 13 although they did manage to find several hundred million for a re branding though!

Talking of which, a 12 year Delta skipper on the B777 will make around $270 per hour. I've done the maths and unless you're basing yourself in a tax exempt state such as Florida, their take home will be just lower after taxes than what I achieve here. Yes, they'll be working less but being able to achieve that figure will have taken considerably longer that the 11 years it's taken me. Then there's the issue of commuting. Don't tell me that that in itself is not tiring and an unnecessary irritant. As I've said, it either works for your circumstances or it doesn't. Command time here is variable but is in the region of 4-6 years depending on fleet so unless 'The unmentionables' offer a command 1 year BEFORE you apply, I'm confused with AC's quoted command times

What I will say though is that our neighbours down the road may still be a better option right now if you're considering the Gulf region.

Harry

[bigdaviet]

Emirates have taken away our ability to check loads on upcoming flights. This has greatly reduced our ability to be able to plan standby staff travel in advance. If staff travel is a big deal for you, then you should take this into consideration.

[Alconguin Crusader]

Well I will leave it to Harry and the management lurkers that purview this site to spin a turd.
When pilots say this site has become negative with regards to Emirates I tell the SCs to point out anything that is not completely true. Yes there is a lot of negativity with regards to Emirates because guess what, the company creates the negativity.
I'm not the one who took away something on a already crappy Staff Travel website. I'm not the one who changes my contract. Believe me if I did it wouldn't look the way it does today. I didn't decide to have the company just to fly me to an Emirates destination on my Annual Leave Ticket and I'll pay and find my way the rest of the way home. I'm not the one who called the company and said "hey, fly me 92 hours a month and don't pay me for sick time or vacation time."
When you compare Emirates to a real airline Harry conviently forgets that the majors get paid 75-78 hours a month of which a substantial portion is credit time. A concept that is completely foreign to Harry. 75 vs 92 is a big difference especially with what we as Emirates pilots deal with everyday.
I am projecting that the upgrades at Emirates will be 8-10 years because I am doing simple math. We have 3750 pilots now. It will take until Emirates has 7500 pilots (minus attrition) until a new joiner will get a chance to upgrade. Again correct me if I am wrong but don't correct me if I am negative. Even by 2020 Emirates is only suppose to have 280 airplanes but of course that could change but not until ATC and DXB gets a serious infrastructure upgrade.
The airlines up the road are much better options than Emirates.

[BYMONEK]

Pardon me for butting in your usual spat with Harry but when have we ever not been paid for sick or vacation? I rarely am sick but when I have been signed off, on one occasion for almost 3 months, I got my full basic salary. I didn't even get a ****ty letter from the CP either. As for leave, almost every year I get to use my full 42 days, some years more if I haven't used my allocation from the previous year and each year I still get the same salary. The only thing I don't get paid is my flight pay but heh, pal, guess what.....I'm not flying. As for the command issue, throughout my time here it's always been around the 3-4 years, with the A380 guys being longer around 6 max. If as many pilots leave as is constantly hinted at, that rate will remain unchanged.

So AC, before you get you knickers in a twist again, why don't you just calm down and try for once to post something factual, rather than heavily biased with raw emotion. Better still, get off PPRune and spend the time applying for all those US majors you so desperately aspire to work for. Some of your posts are embarrassing.

P.S How was the training college on Monday? ;)

[captainsmiffy]

Just for the record.....some of us have been 7 and a half years without a shot because of the 330/380 career structure. ....and counting

[PositiveRate876]

Flying here offers many career rewards that are difficult to achieve elsewhere. You will tick all your boxes on the "been there, done that" career chart. However, make no mistake about it, there is a price to pay.

There will come a time the new shiny jets start looking a bit dull, and you will realize that it's not all about the money in the bank or the size of the jet, but rather about your quality of life and family.

By that time the niggles will have filled your bucket and you will want to leave. Except the problem is that once you reach the pinnacle of this career, where do you go from here. The options are few and not much greener. You are now stuck to endure the niggles and accept the bucket overflowing.

So choose wisely, don't be blinded by equipment and brand. Think about your family life 10, 15, 20 years down the road. Only then make your decision.

[Alconguin Crusader]

Bymonek thanks for joining in with Harry. Like minds think alike!
I know you haven't experienced a great contract or work rules either but when I have 7 days leave assigned in a month I still fly 92 hours a month a very near the amount. Tell how I get paid for vacation? If I actually got paid for my vacation time I would get credit for those 7 days and "only" fly somewhere around 75 hours that month.
Same concept for sick time. When a Emirates pilot calls in sick the company assignees another trip in its place. If we had proper sick time we would get credit for that sick trip. Are you still with us Bymek and Harry?
Again what did I post that is not completely factual? Just because you don't agree with what I post or don't understand it doesn't make it false or negative.
Your comment about upgrades always being 3-4 years at Emirates is totally ignorant. A pilot joining today has to go through 3750 pilots before given an upgrade. Even with mass resignations it will take 6-8 years to upgrade if you join now.

[nolimitholdem]

harry,

I am thankfully, no longer in need of having to ignore anything to do with EK. So your shot is wasted.

I just found it interesting that your approach to the minor things you listed, is to ignore them. Very passive, very submissive. Guess the shrink was wrong, not all pilots are Type A's after all. I hope you don't apply the ignore/deny concept to problems in an aircraft, it probably won't end well.

Still, I'm sure it was very hard for you to so much as even mention anything negative about your beloved Emirates - the airline that gave you the money you could never achieve in your home country. But you're really grasping to try and compare working for a US major to working for EK based solely on pay - whether your "maths" are accurate or not.

[Pixy]

Capt Leaz

If I may add my tuppence worth:

Don’t give much credibility to those who enter into slanging matches with the other posters and divert the discussion at hand. Either they are too immature to have a sensible discussion without lowering the tone and resorting to cheap jibes or they are company trolls deliberately sowing discord to derail the discussion. Whatever the case, I think it’s reasonable to assume there is no value in their opinion. I ignore posts by these individuals.

On the issue itself:

I have been here over 20 years and watched many deliberate whether to come, or to stay or to leave. Many base the decision on well researched facts which are current at the time. However I note that often very little consideration is given to the trend or direction of this data, which might be reasonably extrapolated to see how happy they would be a few years down the line.

Fact: For 20 years, any increase in salary has always been below the UAE government stipulated inflation statistics. Ergo the salary has declined in real terms.

Fact: Conversely the hour expectation for the salary has increased over the 20 years. Without complex specifics this has happened in a number of creative, but very real adjustments.

Fact: Despite an empathetic history, the company handling of a multitude individual issues has become far more cavalier and brutal. So much so that a recent online survey asked employees what they felt about the job as rumblings were being felt. The yet to be published outcome cannot have been pretty. This issue of employee treatment in various departments has led to the emergence of websites from some who feel they have been aggrieved. There are in fact many more shocking stories of individual treatment. To be fair, there are some stories of well handled issues but they are certainly more the exception now. I think the variability itself is unsettling for many. The Sword of Damocles hangs over us all.

Fact: There are moves afoot to corral all pilots into a few large complexes to ultimately remove the pilot transport burden and eventually accommodation allowances. Look ahead to regular busses to work and no choice of accommodation unless you foot the majority or all of the cost yourself. Visualise council estate living and surveillance.

Currently there is reliable information coming out that there will shortly be another adjustment to ensure we work more hours and have less days off in the near future. This increase will come through a mixture of regulatory change and company policy adjustment through creative interpretation of the regulations. No one is likely to successfully challenge this, least of all the regulator. It may go hand in hand with a marginal salary increase to soften the blow but be assured this will be eroded quickly by cost of living as the company plays a careful long game of seemingly innocuous continual adjustment that you will simply not have the time to keep in focus. They are certainly not fools. The consequences however are sorely felt over time. It’s the frog in the boiling pot story. It will not that easy to decide when to leap out. Like the frog many simply stay but are very uncomfortable. Ask yourself if you want to live knowing that things will get worse.

My advice: At the very least wait for the May salary review, bearing in mind that this may be inexplicably delayed and then backdated in part. There will be a sting in the tail if it does not come before. Do your deliberations and assessment but ensure you discount some of your assumptions because there is a simple mandate here: “Each year costs must be cut – profits must rise or managers get replaced”.

You will bear the impact. Much of the profits are paid by the employees.

[SOPS]

Excellent post Pixy. And very true.

[Craggenmore]

The Sword of Damocles hangs over no one unless you have switched places with HH or STC..!

[Alconguin Crusader]

Come now, leave poor Harry and his like alone. He really thinks this is a good airline and no matter how many times you tell him or what proof you lay out before him he thinks he hit the lottery. But be careful laying out that proof to the likes of Harry you be labeled and called negative. Wow, what a put down.
It is better than that crap airline he worked at before though.
That was really desperate Harry comparing us to Delta. What a severe case of Dillusion you must suffer from! How many Delta pilots are trying to come to Emirates vs how many Emirates pilots are trying to go to Delta? It must be 200 to 1. Delta 777 FOs only make $185 an hour and that is before all the work rules come into play and 75 hours vs 92 hours. Almost 20% less hours and he makes more than me before taxes.
Great post Whose sorry. I wish I was that clever but I'm just an Emirates pilot.

[Am NOT Sure]

Thank you Pixy

[fliion]

Spot on Pixy...PARTICULARLY the point about the back and forth sniping between the posters

I'm not going to take sides in the Harry v AC handbags...

...but re. Delta my good friend got paid $202,000 last year as a seven year FO on the MD88, just awarded Capt MD NYC. He juggled things around and 'green slipped' and would be at the high end of the creative opportunists...ie he has a choice to work hard or not.

The work rules he enjoys are saliva inducing reading....comparing Delta Capt to an EK capt is not realistic BUT it took an awfully long time for the T7 skipper at Big D to get there...so not really apples to apples.

Most of us (at least my close social network) know what we are faced with here ..hard graft & zero appreciation/improvement in T&Cs until kids go to college then head for a commuting contract somewhere else.

What's unsettling to me most though is - throughout the course of time Karma seems to work itself into most equations, the longer one waits the harder the fall.

My own view is that it will be a fatigue related incident and accident...obviously there will be no schadenfreude with such a terrible event but there will be a collective scream of:

"We freakin told you so!"

They are pushing too hard, rarely does it lead to a happy ending.

f.

[TangoUniform]

Maximum limits are the "goal/target". Sort of like the edge of the safety margin. Ok, as long as the operation is within the margin. But no buffer, no leeway, no room for error, etc. Are the Safety reports indicators of how close to the margin the operation is? Read between the lines of some of the reports. There is always the human factor involved.


The public relations, marketing of this airline does not indicate it is a low cost operation. First class all the way, right? But the way employees are paid, treated, respected and appreciated, proves this airline treats its employees as bad as some bottom feeder LCCs. Five years ago, cabin crew were not quitting in the hundreds weekly. What has changed? Instead of reading the tea leaves, they're just throwing gas on the fire. Good leadership and management.

[stylo4444]

I've been following this forum for awhile now. As a passenger and aviation enthusiast, and a relatively big fan of the Emirates product...it's really disturbing to read that some of the pilots here for EK predict an incident/accident to happen and an "told you so!" Very comforting @fliion Some even appear to hope for one soon just so they can say "told you so!" and hope for a change.

While it's unfortunate that many of you face difficult situations, please do realize that that there are passengers that fly your aircraft and trust you 110% to get you from point A to point B safely. Even if we may not be completely aware of how the conditions of flying are, we still trust you. I wish there were some more positive comments about people enjoying their jobs, but I suppose it's easier to complain about the negative things than to point out any positives. Sometimes reading the comments on here...it really makes you think a little bit before getting on an EK flight, or really any flight for that matter.

[glofish]

While it's unfortunate that many of you face difficult situations, please do realize that that there are passengers that fly your aircraft and trust you 110% to get you from point A to point B safely. Even if we may not be completely aware of how the conditions of flying are, we still trust you. I wish there were some more positive comments about people enjoying their jobs, but I suppose it's easier to complain about the negative things than to point out any positives. Sometimes reading the comments on here...it really makes you think a little bit before getting on an EK flight, or really any flight for that matter.

So you prefer Lala-land to reality.

I would also like to only hear nice comments about the stock market and the situation in Syria or Ukraine.
It is a human trait that complainers and lobbyists are louder than the numb majority. You have to filter out reality, in the press, tv and on forums.
It is just as much a human trait that we expect the best of doctors, pilots and police when they protect us, but don't want to hear anything that may trouble the glassy waters when not involved.
Where there's smoke, there's fire and i am happy that there is some doubt in you boarding an EK flight or any other, because the industry is sick. Instead of asking the frontmen to no longer feed you with the bitter reality, you might ask the managers to remedy the situation.

[fliion]

Stylo

To insinuate that through a post there was a "hope for" factor in an accident when if you read said sentence again - it says nothing of the sort - is irresponsible.

It's difficult to talk to a layman in context about what we we deal with. It's not like shift work where you do "nights" this month, days the next. We are talking about interrupting natural sleep patterns sometimes four time a week. So if I told you that you had to stay awake through the night four time this week and then do your job to a very specific standard - it takes on a different flavor.

The issue is not that we can't do it within industry prescribed regs - the issue is that our regs differ so significantly with those in the the US and elsewhere because of greed. Maybe just maybe your post will be a small building block in a movement that will wake mgt up and realize - okay enough is enough.

For a "civvie" maybe Have a look at Discovery Channels Air Crash Investigation on Pilot Fatigue and specifically sleep inertia. Three accidents covered - Colgan (Buffalo), Air India Express (Mangalore) & Corporate Air (Kirskville). The rules changed in the US after Colgan - NOT for foreign airlines flying to US.

Asiana had four pilots on board for a 10:15 flight from ICN to SFO - in certain circumstances we could do it with two and no more than three.

We care deeply about people in the back and it is precisely FOR that reason that I made my comments in previous post.

Fatigue is real and needs to be taken seriously - you agree, I agree - we just need the third party.

f.

[Nikita81]

Hi, stylo.


I've been following this forum for awhile now. As a passenger and aviation enthusiast, and a relatively big fan of the Emirates product


I've been given some input on safety culture on EK flights from many cabin crew (writing the blog on EK really gives you the full picture of what is going on inside EK as many employees write to me, so I can compare their stories and opinions). Interesting enough, while I got some hate comments on my blog, I never got a hate email, only emails of support and gratitude.

I will post article on safety subject these days and I will include your concerns.

Before that, would you care to elaborate what exactly in Emirates product are you a fan of? Planes, food, ICE, service? Any product of EK includes people who deliver it (that is what customer service industry is all about). Saying that you are fan of EK products but not trusting them confuses me.

This is what you have said 4 years ago about your safety concerns:

you how much I do not enjoy reading how some pilots on here are basically guaranteeing an accident happening soon. I understand the airline having problems, and how things are done differently in the ME...but to say that the airline is bracing for a hull loss soon, doesn't give me much confidence in the boys flying the thing up front. Sad.


You have the same safety concern for at least 4 years now. Can you, please, explain in what way you separate EK product from its people?

I am asking because EK management is doing the same thing so I would like to understand that way of thinking better. Managers don't seem to care about the connection between "the product" and the employees. So they change staff and treat them like disposable and easily replaceable things, while expecting "the product" to stay on a high level of quality. It doesn't have any sense or logic to me and I don't understand how can anyone be a fan of something they don't trust to?

In most of the cases, people are Emirates' product and that includes pilots and their skills to fly the planes safely. Safety is one of the products of every airline and it's not separable from people working in them.

So, if you feel that safety is low, that is because some pilots are frustrated with working conditions. If they are frustrated, it means that management is not doing their job well. But you have decided to keep the product picture that management is offering to you and to be the fan of it and to criticize people for being frustrated? You are accusing mistreated and exhausted pilots for ruining your good impression on Emirates? Am I mistaken?

Since I plan to write an article on all of this, I would really appreciate your answer to my questions. Maybe not on this thread, but certainly on "EK safety culture" thread, where your second quoted statement originates from.

Thank you.

[BigGeordie]

Wow, she's good.

[The Outlaw]

Yeah..I'd say she is.

She has my vote if she decides to head up a cyber union.

More balls than any of us.

[JAARule]

Stylo be careful putting faith in some of the backpedals and perceived motivations here.

It would be only a tiny number of warped individuals who hope for a catastrophe (no doubt on someone else's flight) in order to "hit back" at the company and one poster's shadenfreudenistic comment about having "told them so" is NOT representative of the professionals you want flying you around. Most of us set a positive atmosphere in the F/D and do not accept this kind of crap while on duty. Moan in the bar instead.

There is no labour representation here so for the vast professional majority, posting on this site is on way of letting off steam and expressing outlooks. As you have seen, some take it way too far and way too seriously but they are not speaking for anyone but themselves.

Despite that, almost everyone I know still loves the job despite the company's way of handling crew and staff and wish the best for the hand that feeds us.




PS: Good work, Nikita!

[JAARule]

Alconguin, you are right on the money. Well said.

[fliion]

It seems Stylo is not the only one who cannot read. Capitalized for those challenged:

"My own view is that it will be a fatigue related incident and accident...obviously there will be NO schadenfreude with such a TERRIBLE event but there will be a collective scream of:..."

f.

[Nikita81]

I agree with you, fliion.

There is no mention of any wish for accident to happen. You just have a grounded fear that it can happen.

Unfortunately, most of the human population prefer to cure the symptoms and not the cause of the disease.

[nolimitholdem]

stylo,

I challenge you to provide anywhere on this thread an example of a comment that could be twisted to be taken as a desire for a hull loss! No one in their one right minds would wish for that. Been through one at a former airline and I can't imagine wishing it on my worst enemy, or even TCAS.

The problem with safety is you can't prove a negative. This can be illustrated by a statement such as "Emirates has not had a major accident, therefore they are safe." (Well, ok, even the statement is debatable, seeing as something like MEL - to mention one - wasn't a hull loss. Only as close as you can get without one. But we'll take the "no major accident" as technically correct.)

But the thing is - as the brokers like to say - past performance is no guarantee of future results. The fact that Emirates has not had a smoking hole in the past does not prove their best practices in safety in the present. And so the best we can do is try and manage the risk.

But therein lies the problem with treating all limitations as targets instead of limits. Perhaps someone can provide some examples of situations where pushing things - people or machines - to the absolute limit, had a happy ending?

Hence the people who try and reduce the chances of such a horror as you allude to are feeling a bit darker at EK these days. No regulatory oversight, no labour protection, massive rosters, no roster stability, Air Safety Reports, Fatigue Reports that fall on deaf ears, no way to inject some balance into the equation, no way to fight back other than resign, and after awhile no energy to even fight anyway. It's hard to win a rigged game, after all.

But I can assure you, stylo, that the good folk at the front end will surely do their best for you and all other pax, right until they just can't anymore.

[InnocentBystander]

Looks like the illuminati Web site has been pulled...

[BYMONEK]

pixy

Good post and agree with much of what you've said.

I was also about to respond to AC, in particular to his assertion that he doesn't get paid whilst he's sick or on leave. I would have, had I not received a personal message, the content of which was anything but professional. I will not go into detail as to it's content. However, for someone who prides himself on having worked for a US major I did found it rather ironic that he had the immaturity to send a fellow colleague such a spiteful and angry message. When you have to highlight your own professional prowess to someone you don't actually know, whilst deriding others, it's time for some serious introspection.

I will not be subtly bullied into sharing his frustration, made from his own wrongdoing and poor decisions that others are now being blamed for. His message, along with all his future posts will be ignored.

The sooner he 'rejoins' one of the illustrious US majors, the better it will be for all.

[Boeingrestricted]

Well,...... Stylo,..?!?

[JAARule]

BY if you think AC is paid for leave, sick days, ground duties, etc, do you also think he's paid to sleep, eat meals, go sailing and have days off at home? In that case, it'd seem you're correct. A month's salary for a whole month of anything.

If that is the case, then why is he paid for "credit hours" which do not include those items? It's hard to see why you don't agree that after 15days leave being rostered for 65 credit hours (and possibly some non-credit duties also) in the remaining 16 days is effectively doing most of a month's work in only half a month. Maybe I've missed the point but I've never heard people defending the current system until now.

Many years ago we used to be awarded I think it was 2.5hrs credit for a Leave Day. That's not being "paid" for leave but it amounted to the same thing. TCK changed that.

[BYMONEK]

JAARule

No, that's not what I'm saying. I agree that we do duties that in theory are awarded 'phantom' credit in the build of the roster but when the rosters are produced, are then overlooked, especially when they do not attract the hourly rate. I've had numerous months of being paid up to the monthly limit but have 2 or 3 non payable duties rostered. That means I've sometimes worked 15 hours for free! This is wrong, as is doing 55.5 hours in the month of Feb with 14 days leave. The system should award a max of 41.5 hours if you apply what the Company agreed to. They're milking the system and it leaves a bad taste in many mouths. That I'm not denying.

But, I will still get paid for those extra 13.5 hours, as I will while I'm on leave. I get paid my full basic while i'm off sick and I get paid my full basic while I'm on leave. That's fact. The other issues are rostering practices and not related to my initial post. AC's post would imply that he doesn't get paid for either.

[BigGeordie]

It is the difference between pay and credit- we get paid for leave in that we get the same basic if we have leave or not. We do not get credit for leave, groundschool or simulators which means that you can end up with a month of flying squeezed into three weeks or less. That is wrong (and fatiguing) no matter what you call it. I think that is what posters are getting at.

[SOPS]

What Geordie says is correct. We used to get credit for leave. 2.5 hours per day, that was effectively getting paid for it. It stopped what is going on at the moment, where you get two weeks leave, and still get a 70 hour roster.

I'm sure the office people don't have to work weekends to make up for the days they get on leave.

May I add, that my contract says that I get 6 weeks leave a year. I can't remember the last time that happened.

However, I can't complain anymore, I took the management advise,....if you don't like it leave....the count down continues.

[BYMONEK]

BG/SOPS

Point taken and agreed with. I think the roster build still puts in credit for those duties you mention to initially balance the roster but it's simply a case of supply and demand. We haven't enough pilots, hence the unbalanced work hours during leave months and training duties not included in the final months credit total.

[stylo4444]

@fliion - my apologies if my comment was interpreted as me saying that you wanted something like this to happen and I'd like to clarify. Over the years I've read hundreds if not thousands of posts regarding this topic, I'm not oblivious to the issues of fatigue nor in denial that they exist. I get up for my 9-5 Mon - Fri. job, I tend to sleep late, rely on 5-6 hours of sleep and get through the day just fine. There are days when I find myself slightly more exhausted than before...but this is a professional job in an office...it's nowhere near the same as being a pilot and I can only imagine how much more difficult it is when you're trying to land a jetliner with 300 people in the back, in the middle of the night, during monsoon season in a third world country...and then have to fly back and arrive home at 6-7 AM. As I have been a passenger on one of those flights to that part of the world...I can only say thank you to the professional ad skillful pilots that have gotten me to my destination and back in conditions which I would not want to be working in.

My main concern is just how the repeated mentioning of a likely incident happening being interpreted...I've flown well over a million miles in my life, and flying to me has always been an adventure, and I hardly ever worry with turbulence or rough weather conditions because at some point you just get used to it and know you're in good hands with the most qualified individuals up front handling everything. The very first time I knew about any fatigue related issues was the Melbourne incident, I started to pay more attention to this forum and the comments being made. With what seems to have been a lucky escape for EK, and thinking "Well thank God, if it wasn't for those pilots this could have been a very tragic situation."...I was actually very confident of my next EK flight. But then you start seeing all the complaints, and while it's easier to complain than give praise...it got me thinking just a little bit. When the complaints started to turn into predictions of a smoking hole and that being the only way to get mgmt to change...it can be a bit unnerving. You get on a plane for a late night flight, but you never know how rested the men up front are...or what the conditions are going to be which are going to depend on the alertness and experience of those that are responsible for your safe arrival...as I said I've been reading these comments for some time. In a way I think it's good to read this because it sheds more light on reality...but the drawback is that it creates negative thinking, not just from a passenger standpoint but I'm sure from pilots to cabin crew, to anyone that is a a part of this. I think the negative reality of it, and living in times when a/c go missing in the middle of the night, fly into massive thunderstorms and then fall out of the sky, it's a bit scary to put it straight. Sometimes the comments I have read over the last few years...it gives the perception (that would be the right word) that the conditions are just so bad that maybe these guys are just waiting for an incident to happen in order for maybe, just maybe some change from mgmt.

When I say I'm a fan of the product, it's the complete product from a passenger standpoint. The a/c's, the seats, the food, the entertainment, the service, the employee at the check-in counter that likely does not get paid very well, to the wonderful cabin crew that always seem to show a professional attitude and willingness to deal with even the most difficult of passengers, to the men and women in charge of flying the aircraft up front...to the commercials on TV, and the branding of the company...I am a fan of it. Now, the one thing I'm happy to admit that while being a fan and a loyal traveler...there are some things which are easy to forget or ignore, such as the working conditions and how hard the employees are really being worked. I suppose there must be less than 10% of overall passengers who might be aware, or even care...after all they pay for a ticket, expect a level of service, want this and that, and get to their destination and collect their miles. Safety tends to be something which is not thought about as much as it should...and at least not with a passenger. But with the people responsible for making sure you get from point A to point B...it's likely one of the very first things you think about, and are always thinking about. Because when I turn on my ICE unit and sip on my champagne, I'm probably scrolling through the channels wondering what tv show/movie should I watch next? I suppose these "products" mask reality and are fairly effective in masking reality as well. My apologies if my words were misinterpreted for me saying that there are a lot of EK folk that want something bad to happen...that wasn't my intention, I was trying to say that after following this forum for years, and reading thousands of comments...and there are positive comments sure, but the negative ones drown those out and whenever the word incident/accident gets mentioned (and it gets mentioned here and there) and that it might be the only way that mgmt changes...yeah it's bit scary.

Thank you for taking the time to address some of my concerns with the previous replies, I personally believe that EK hires some of the best pilots in the world and I would only hope that in the near future conditions for all employees improve to where you read about more positive comments etc. I'm hopeful of it anyways, but I guess it's much easier saying that and thinking that as one of the passengers that sits in the back...perception vs. reality is always different.

[Nikita81]

Stylo,

I still don't see how you manage to separate the product from the service.

And I am sure that further discussion will not clarify anything because for you that product is your glass of champagne and a movie on ICE.

Nobody asks you to empathize with employees and their problems. Now you sound like EK managers who say they want to "help" whenever they agree to develop a discussion with their employees and to address some of their problems. Do you think that managers are there "to help" or to do their job?

It's like this: problems of employees ARE PART of the product. When you get your glass of champagne, your are also served with some tiredness, some unhappiness and some dissatisfaction. If you choose not to see it it's your right, but when your plane starts to fall from the sky, I guess that it would be the very moment when you will ask yourself whether that glass of champagne is your last one because it was served with something you chose not to see.

There is something called "passengers' culture" as well. You can seat, drink your drink, enjoy the ride and think of no one around you, expecting your high level service because you paid for it. Or you can do all of that and be aware of things happening around you and actually ACT when you see injustice or something that doesn't seem right.

Have you ever written a feedback to EK managers about your safety concerns? You are the customer, therefore you CAN, actually, complain and your complaint can be even taken seriously. It can also find its way to public through various consumers' organizations. You can change something on a bigger scale. But you chose to come here instead. Why is that?

Try and write a letter to Emirates' managers and ask them why their pilots predict an accident. I guess they will have an answer which will reflect their positive thinking and will calm you down.

[JAARule]

Jesus christ, did anyone actually read either of those last two posts? No?

Anyway, BYmonek you seem to think the company means well in rostering. Looking at your join date = 2004 or something, have you been here since 2004? If so, you should be well aware of the rot which set in back then.

This is not about "supply and demand....haven't enough pilots, "hence" (???) unbalanced work hours during leave months". Seriously????
Zero credit for leave is strictly intentional and a part of how the company continues to make more and more money: Part of every annual profit is cost cutting and staff shaftings.

[fatbus]

JAA you join EK in 2011 then.

[stylo4444]

I came here for the same reason as most others...to express an opinion and/or thought. However, for a change...I wanted to share this as coming from a passenger and aviation enthusiast.

I'll be happy to consider writing a letter to EK managers and sharing my thoughts. While I understand what you are saying about choosing not to see something, and not be aware...99% of passengers do not see this, they see a smiling face (whether it's a real smile or a forced smile), they see how CC respond to their needs, and they simply make a judgement on overall level of service based off that. After all, you can't expect them to know of the problems behind the scene. Airlines...and I don't know of any single airline that does not do this, but they will always want to mask their problems as much as possible...it doesn't matter if it's a US airline, a European airline, a Middle East airline, or an Asian airline.

Your statement on the product, is true and understandable...but it is a whole lot more than 99.9% of passengers are going to see. To most pax, it's a lot more simple (which is unfortunate, but it's the same across all airlines to a certain degree). It's just their perception...when you read a trip report about EKxxx from DXB to XXX, or BAxxx from LHR to XXX...passengers talk about the experience at the airport, condition of the aircraft, the food, the entertainment, comfort of service, professionalism of cabin crew, etc. and it is seen as an overall review of the product, which hundreds..maybe thousands of people read and perceive as what they can expect as the "product". As you said, reality is a bit more than that...unfortunately it's the reality that a vast majority do not get to see.

[Alconguin Crusader]

Well here we go again. I never said I don't get paid when I am on vacation or out sick. What I said which Bymonk has such a hard time understanding is that we as Emirates pilots don't get any vacation pay or sick pay. As I alludeded to earlier if we call in sick CC gives us another trip or if they can't squeeze that in they put us on AVialable Days at the very least.
Another fine example of Emirates screwing us is with vacation credit. I had 21 days vacation in a 31 day month and still flew 44 hours in the month. How did I get any vacation credit? I flew 44 hours in 10 days. Wow! Sometimes when you only have 7 days vacation a pilot still flies a full 92 hour month. How is that vacation pay and what is the point of taking vacation if you are going to fly a full month anyway? One would need another vacation to recover from flying 92 hours in 24 days instead of 31 days.
There was nothing unprofessional in my PM to Bymonk. He just didn't like how I tried to explain the inner workings of a real contract to him. It was not spiteful and angry, just direct. If Bymonk thinks that is Bully type behavior then he needs to develope thicker skin or get off the forum. I for one wishes he stays because it exposes the company men that purview this site with their mentality they posses and what we as Emirates pilots are up against.

[Nikita81]

Stylo,

Your input is valuable. It reveals the pressure that employees have to handle. From the customers' point of view they are responsible if your flight is delayed, if your food is bad and if your plane goes down. Even if an overworked pilot does make a mistake, he/she will still be proclaimed as a guilty one.

Managers are sitting in their Dark Tower and while they are the real culprits for all of the above, nobody addresses to them, including their bosses in this case.

I guess that all of the complaints and websites about EK management have one purpose only - to send a warning and if something does go wrong it will take the responsibility off the staff's back. It also means that if something bad happens everyone will see that the problem is deeper than one pilot's mistake. It will make EK lose more customers than they would originally lose by blaming one pilot and his/her FO.

I still don't understand why you are complaining to the pilots, though. Nobody wants to die in a plane crash, including them.

Be a responsible passenger and fan and send your concerns to the useful address. Sauron will be glad to answer them.

[harry the cod]

LR 3

Assuming you're a Captain, it's simple. If you're fatigued, tell them and that's an end of it. If you think you're okay, do the flight. If you're really tired at the end and you thought safety was compromised, file a fatigue report. For Christ sake man, just grow some balls, do the job and stop bloody whinging about something that you DO have control over.

As I heard on a CRM course once, There are a certain number of Captains in this Company who are more afraid of the mahogany desk than they are of the mahogany box. You must be one of them. Please PM me and give me your staff number, one to avoid when I and the family fly!

As for PM's, Alconguin Crusader, you obviously must make it a habit of sending nice little messages to those that haven't joined the union bandwagon. You have an unhealthy obsession for accusing everyone who's not always complaining of working for crap airlines. Or as you quoted to me last year "at a ****e carrier". As for the 'we as Emirates pilots' quote, please don't include me as one of your chummy colleagues bud, our viewpoints are poles apart.

Well, you have no idea who I worked for before but I will say one thing. It wasn't NWA.

Harry

[Nikita81]

http://i59.tinypic.com/9jzms5.png

[fliion]

Harry

One of the foundations of this forum is anonymity. We exchange views under pseudonyms without the possibility of punitive action from you know who.

Outing someone regardless of their view is not on.

I've been on the receiving end of his private messages - yes pathetic - but let's leave the real names alone.

f.

[harry the cod]

Nikita

Nah, these guys are complaining they're f****d enough. Growing a lady garden would make them bitch and moan even more. Thanks for the suggestion though!:ok:

Harry

fliion, fair point, removed as requested. Poor form on my part, apologies!

[Nikita81]

http://i59.tinypic.com/4hv9sy.png

[harry the cod]

LR 3

Then I'll retract my comments. If you'd put your latest post instead of the more emotive initial post, it would have put a completely different perspective on how I, and probably others, perceived your attitude to fatigue issues. I too have refused discretion (only once), but didn't hear anything more. It is a ballsy move and likely to illicit a telephone call, if only because they themselves will get one from higher up later on.

Agreed 100% about the fatigue process, frustrating as it is, we still need to keep the reports coming in.

Harry

[Nikita81]

First article on EK safety culture:

How safe is it to fly with Emirates ? testimony of one cabin crew | Truth about Emirates Airline Management (http://donotflyemirates.org/2015/02/05/how-safe-is-it-to-fly-with-emirates-testimony-of-one-cabin-crew/)


P.S.
Whining about my EOSB is implied.