EK crewing levels coming home to roost?

[Nedul]

Grapevine......

No more flight deck swaps that involve Days off
Unrostered double turns for CC
Overtime threshold lifted for Feb
Plus many more signs of a rapidly impending crewing crisis

It would appear things are about to get a lot worse around here!

[falconeasydriver]

Easy fix, fatigue report followed by days off :ok:

[SOPS]

Good bye, have a lovely life. ( directed at management not the people who choose to stay)

[Kapitanleutnant]

Double Turns were forced upon an unsuspecting cockpit crew as well the other day I have been told…. and if refused, would have to come see JA! So looks like it's not just cabin crew….

It just keeps getting better and better……..

How in the world will this airline hire up to 450 pilots for this year??? And more…. how many applicants will they have to interview to get that 450???

[SOPS]

I just can't wait.

[Chocks Away]

"Show me the money"... and I mean a lot more money. :}
Their whole package simply doesnt compare anymore with what's on offer globally now, even with a few of their neighbors.

[Emma Royds]

One of the GR2 crew on a trip a couple of weeks ago arrived at HQ a few minutes late after initially leaving her ID at home. As there were no airport standby crew remaining, she was allowed to operate and avoided an absent! :E

[harry the cod]

Kapitanleutnant

Please excuse me for not sharing your emotive displeasure at a 'double sector' but there is only one question to ask. Was the duty requested of the flight crew within the prescribed FDL's? If it was, they are not in a position to refuse it, simple as. If it falls outside of the FDM, then discretion is with the commander, not JA!

I'm not saying that we're not short of crews, but lets be mature enough to decide what battles to fight. If you are a Captain out there, grow up and grow some. And not necessarily in that order!

Harry

[320goat]

Reminds me of a story I heard about one of our captains calling the duty pilot one evening over something trivial. The duty pilot happened to be an Irish DFO. He apparently asked said captain to have a good look around the flight deck and if he saw someone with 4 bars on his shoulder get him to make a decision!

True or not I certainly could imagine it coming from said DFO. Made me laugh either way.

[captjns]

By the way it is THEIR decision --you have simply forewarned that you will not go into discretion so if they still want you to go that is THEIR risk. Just make that very clear.

Put it in writing to the manager on duty, and request confirmation of same of acknowledgment from the MOD via scanned copy with his/her signature. You have your options should they refuse.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Harry,
Can't disagree much with what you say but...

Lets think this thru a bit, shall we:

Would you get an increase in flight pay for this?
Would you get overtime pay for this if you had 91:30 up to that point?
Would you be then removed from a future trip that month to remain under 92?
Would you get the increased overtime pay plus that flight pay as well?

I was just passing along what I heard….

Kap

[TangoUniform]

Someone give some reasons for going into discretion out of DXB. There are plenty of mgmt. pilots that could take up the slack. These issues don't just crop up usually. Remember, it's Captain's Discretion, not Management's.

[VLS with ice]

Expect phone calls from scheduling on days off....hope you give them the correct answer!

[CaptainChipotle]

Have they called anyone on days off recently? I don't care how much they offer the answer is NO. I've gone "the extra mile" for quite some time.

Also, I flew with a Ryan air guy the other week that was happy here, and he didn't know of any other Ryan air guys headed back. I just wonder if there is any truth to the rumor.

Cap, don't worry about Harry. He's either high on life or drunk on the company kool aid. He's very happy at EK (or is a management troll). He has some decent posts but is still a puppet for EK. It's good to play Devils advocate some times but he is the kind of guy that would happily accept a double duty(as long as it fits within the FTLs). It's guys like him (and others) that are why our quality of life is under constant attack and the terms and conditions are dwindling.

[harry the cod]

CaptainChipotle.

No, I'm not a management troll.
No, I'm not drunk on the Company Kool aid. In fact, far from it.

Yes, I am high on life. (Financially secure, healthy and happy family, safe environment, nice house, great friends)
Yes, I'm generally happy here in Emirates. (see above)

And yes, I would do a double sector if it was required and was safe and legal. For two reasons. Firstly, I would have a hard time justifying not doing it. When you sign in, you're signing in for the full FDP. It's little different to having a tech problem then being delayed 4-5 hours. Secondly, believe it or not, FDM's and management do appreciate gestures such as this and I may one day need a favour in return. I speak from experience and assure you that I have indeed been assisted in the past.....on several occasions. That's why I try offer a balanced argument. In 12 years, I've extended into discretion 3 times and refused once. I heard nothing further on that occasion. I didn't just extend for the companies sake, but for the 350 people sat behind me.

Oh, and a final no. I will not work on a day off. So you can be rest assured it's NOT people like me who are responsible for your dwindling T&C's!

Harry.

[BigGeordie]

I'm pretty sure management used to appreciate gestures such as the one outlined by Harry but EK was a different company then. I think the chances of getting favours returned now are pretty small. Heck they won't let us do legal swaps most of the time!

[sheiken around]

I got a call for a "favour" a few days ago....was happy to tell them a resounding "NO" - and don't ask again.

Happy New Year to All !!!

[Emma Royds]

Expect phone calls from scheduling on days off....hope you give them the correct answer!

Never mind giving them the right answer, just don't answer the phone when they call you on a day off!

[Mr Good Cat]

We've had quite a few Emirates guys to interview for DEC at easyJet recently. Available bases of Gatwick, Amsterdam, Naples, Lisbon, Porto.

Mainly citing accomodation issues as the reason to leave.

Were these guys ex-A320 Captains working as FOs on the 380? Or current 330/340 Captains with 320 ratings on the Licence.

EasyJet will only interview you with a 320 rating at the moment. Gatwick unlikely as most of the places going to Monarch trainers. Other bases great if its where you want to live.

[Threethirty]

I'm sure the Ryanair F/O's are only happy because they still can't believe they are getting fed and watered!

[Am NOT Sure]

I will side with Harry again

Harry has never been emotional in his statements .. Can't say the same about ur response

He merely accepts the current reality ... Perhaps you have been long away from ur home and the ancient first class treatment that pilots received that it clouds ur views of the current market

I view this sites on daily basis for constructive comments like Harry's

[Silky]

Wait for the influx from Cyprus Airways....yet again they have been saved by the misfortune of another carriers demise!:ugh:

[nolimitholdem]

Are you SURE you're not sure, Am NOT Sure?

http://s21.postimg.org/3rqrtl8l3/arsekisser.jpg

[Craggenmore]

Wow..! Emirates accommodation vs Easyjets relentless rosters, 'creative' rostering practices and cut price foreign DEC contracts..!

Why don't these guys just move out of their EK homes/flats and take the million quid that EK will give them over the next 25-30 years..?

If you think you can't last 25-30 at EK heading off to MUC, BKK and MRU each month then the very best of luck at EasyJet..!

[TransitCheck]

Craggen,

Your living in the 90's world of EK. The current world is 6 layover trips a month to many undesirable places in varying time zones to the tune of 92 hours per month with the inability to swap to the desired destination examples you listed above.

It would be great if your example was true.... That said, I would not go to Ryan or Easy from EK......YET.........

[halas]

Transit, l think he was referring to the gAy 380

halas

[bringbackthe80s]

You guys talking about other companies, with so many opinions and so much knowledge, have no clue what you are talking about.

I don 't mean to be bitter or rude, really, but I can also promise you it's not like these companies are there just waiting to hire you.

All the best

[bogeydope]

It's always better to have the options though, than non at all!!!!!!

EK will be in for some surprise in a year or so.........

Just my 2 pennies

[Andy24]

Silky, most of Cyprus' pilots will joint Aegan

[SOPS]

And they only had 6 aircraft

[helen-damnation]

The Mondial guy (EK prov fund) recently told me he's seeing an increase in guys n' gals who previously were just grumpy but are now on their way or making plans before they hand in their resignation.

Not saying it'll be massive numbers, just an increase in unhappy folks ready to make the move. His observations, not mine!

[gotoindia]

I've never seen a Mondial guy (prov fund) but enough is enough is enough. Last day of service in less than 3 weeks.

[Mr Good Cat]

Whereabouts are you heading GOTOINDIA?

Are you able to tell us?

Best of luck with the move and keep us updated on how the leaving process went.

[tornadof3raf]

Reading all this confirms I'm leaving at the right time.... 71 days and counting...... :}

[kingpost]

Ryan air pilots will still keep coming, shortage of crew - not in EK!!

[Silky]

We are still only sitting at 3700...over two years ago we were over 3500, how many recruited since then? Everyone keeps telling us we are below industry average in attrition, I totally disput that!! :hmm:

[FNGDXB]

A flight was delayed a few days ago because of no FO available. The original FO was used to crew an earlier flight which had an FO go sick and no replacement could be found in time.

http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20150108-why-bosses-keep-bullies-around

[5711N0205W]

We're sorry but this site is not accessible from the UK as it is part of our international service and is not funded by the licence fee. It is run commercially by BBC Worldwide, a wholly-owned subsidiary of the BBC, the profits made from it go back to BBC programme-makers to help fund great new BBC programmes.

Link above.

I don't understand the logic behind that policy, not pertinent to this thread though really.

[THRCLB]

Tryin to imagine if all the crew call in sick ( not in the same day ) just one flight a month , what will happen ? Especially if you r in reserve :E

[Kamelchaser]

An entire ground school day was apparently lost last week because of a shortage of trainers.

We've let go several long time and very knowledgable GSFIs, and now they're short.

There aren't enough trainers to run the 777 program for the year.

....."but 100 applied for trainer positions" they said. ...so all must be fine.

[Andy24]

Emirates will recruit around 400 pilots next year – roughly the same as 2014 – as it takes delivery of 16 Airbus A380s and 13 Boeing 777s. Although some A330s, A340s and older 777s will be retired and crews retrained for newer types, the intake will see overall pilot numbers increase by a tenth. With a low annual retirement rate – because its pilots tend to be younger – Emirates’ flightdeck attrition rate is just 2%, says divisional senior vice president of flight operations Capt Alan Stealey.

Despite a blip three years ago when it urgently needed experienced direct-entry captains, the Dubai airline sticks to its policy of only recruiting first officers. While this might mean experienced captains have to return to second-in-command for a while, Stealey insists it is the best way for Emirates to instill the airline’s values in all flightcrew, and ensure opportunities for rising in rank apply equally. “We prefer to promote internally and early,” he says.

This means that all first officers have a chance to apply for captains’ positions after a minium of three years with the carrier, although a four-and-half year wait is typical, says Stealey. Given that Emirates stresses the long-term nature of a career with the airline, this is not an unreasonable period, he suggests. It is also much shorter than most legacy carriers, where stagnant fleet sizes and strict seniority rules mean co-pilots “might have to spend 20 years in the right-hand seat”.

We offer everything a young pilot would want, including flying the latest technology

To apply for a job at Emirates, pilots need at least 4,000 flying hours in total in a commercial aircraft, or 2,500 on either an Airbus or Boeing. Those from a low-cost carrier background – who will fly around 800h a year – often get there fastest, and many applicants come from this sector, says Stealey. For a pilot flying several short-hop sectors a day, the *attraction of intercontinental routes and really seeing the world can be compelling, he adds.

But Emirates also gets applications from much more seasoned pilots. “We had a guy in yesterday with 8,000h of experience,” he says. In fact, Stealey maintains he is seeing a change in the sort of pilots coming to Emirates. For a while crisis-hit US airlines were a happy hunting ground, but now, as the North American market has picked up, Europe’s ailing carriers are providing a stream of recruits, says Stealey. “If you work for an airline that is downsizing, we can offer stability,” he adds.

[Andy24]

The above was posted today on Flightglobal dealing with recruitment in the Middle East

[TransitCheck]

Emirates will recruit around 400 pilots next year – roughly the same as 2014 – as it takes delivery of 16 Airbus A380s and 13 Boeing 777s. Although some A330s, A340s and older 777s will be retired and crews retrained for newer types, the intake will see overall pilot numbers increase by a tenth. With a low annual retirement rate and our norm of overworking pilots to the tune of 92 hours a month– because its pilots tend to be younger – so they won't die as quickly from our abusive scheduling practices, Emirates’ flightdeck attrition rate is just 2%, says divisional senior vice president of flight operations Capt Alan Stealey with a crooked lying snaggle tooth smile akin to the crooked wheels on the famous Stealey wheelie bag that I force all our pilots to roll around.

Despite a blip three years ago when it urgently needed experienced direct-entry captains, the Dubai airline sticks to its policy of only recruiting first officers. We will then cherry pick the first officers who were hired "as future captains" for captain positions only after our checking department have repeatedly raped them in our turkish prison like checking setting. While this might mean experienced captains have to return to second-in-command for a while, Stealey insists it is the best way for Emirates to instill the airline’s values by using the stockholm syndrome technique of floggings, beatings, warning letters, and an active reporting culture in all flightcrew just to ensure opportunities for rising in rank apply equally. “We prefer to promote internally and early if you do everything perfectly and you are of the right nationality,” he says.

This means that all first officers have a chance to apply for captains’ positions when our management tells them they can after a minium of three years with the carrier, although a four-and-half year wait is typical, says Stealey. Given that Emirates stresses the long-term nature of a career with the airline, this is not an unreasonable period, he suggests. If our pilots have an issue or a complaint as we erode away their terms and conditions that were agreed to when they were hired and we decide to work them harder and harder, we just tell them that if they don't like it they can leave. It is also much shorter than most legacy carriers, where stagnant fleet sizes and strict seniority rules mean co-pilots “might have to spend 20 years in the right-hand seat” all while having great work rules, no threat of being terminated for stupid reasons, regular raises and bonuses, and not having to put up with idiot management and their policies.

We offer everything a young pilot would want, including flying the latest technology, harassing you through multiple bulletins, over-interpretation of company manuals, and an apartment in the desert, or if you are lucky, a villa in which you will be fined if you flush paper from the 2nd level.

To apply for a job at Emirates, pilots need at least 4,000 flying hours in total in a commercial aircraft, or 2,500 on either an Airbus or Boeing. Those from a low-cost carrier background – who will fly around 800h a year – often get there fastest, and many applicants come from this sector, says Stealey. For a pilot flying several short-hop sectors a day, the *attraction of intercontinental routes and really seeing the world can be compelling, he adds. In addition, you won't have the sun in your eyes while flying at Emirates as most of our flights occur during the night time hours. We will fly you across multiple time zones to many beautiful destinations in mainland China, the Indian subcontinent, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi, and Africa including a tour of baku-haram land and Ebola-ville. You will be challenged to learn to sleep at anytime of the day or night from one day to the next with no consistency. After all that, we will send you for your yearly medical and they will recommend a sleep study in addition to finding a host of other medical problems because of our scheduling practices so that we can ground you and jeopardize your whole career. We will test you for alcohol as our company and work rules would NEVER drive you to drink. You will be subject to arbitrary scheduling rules limiting you to no more than 7 days off in a row and the inability to swap trips when we purposely schedule you into overtime, although you can't voluntarily swap to a desirable trip that pushes you into the same overtime

But Emirates also gets applications from much more seasoned pilots. “We had a guy in yesterday with 8,000h of experience from a defunct Indian carrier. He couldn't feed his family anymore so he had to come for the job,” he says. In fact, Stealey maintains he is seeing a change in the sort of pilots coming to Emirates. For a while crisis-hit US airlines were a happy hunting ground, but now, as the North American market has picked up, Europe’s ailing carriers are providing a stream of recruits, says Stealey. “If you work for an airline that is downsizing and you are desperate for a job, our bull****, and our abuse, we can offer stability,” he adds.

[Nikita81]

@TransitCheck

Brilliant.

[RAFAT]

I couldn't find the above text on Flightglobal's postings from 12th January, however, the actual requirements listed on the Emirates website differ from those listed in the text:

First Officer

- A minimum of 4000 hours total flying time (may include 25% P3 or FEO time to a max of 500 hours)

- A minimum of 2000 hours multi-crew, multi-engine jet aircraft (P3 time cannot be used for this requirement).

OR

- A minimum of 2500 hours total flying time on a modern commercial multi-engine, multi-crew aircraft jet (P3 time cannot be used for this requirement)

Jet time isn't mentioned in the text above, which states:

To apply for a job at Emirates, pilots need at least 4,000 flying hours in total in a commercial aircraft, or 2,500 on either an Airbus or Boeing.

[White Knight]

Transit Check - I don't always see eye to eye with you but that is a peach... Very good👍

[SOPS]

Road shows across Europe? Really? That's interesting...At a recent wash up the HR person said.. 'hundreds of applications no need for road shows'....

[cerbus]

Then why were the Recruitment team in MIA for 2 weeks, Aus late last year and all over S America trying to get anyone to come to EK?
I know no one on this forum trust Emirates and what they say and do but we as pilots have to start calling their lies.

[fatbus]

Call their lies but then what?

[fliion]

Cerbus

From what I understand - the MIA foray is a pre-Dubai invite (Sim & basic HR check) before final assessment in desert & not technically a "road show"

Open to correction.

f.

[Panther 88]

TCAS needs a little remedial maths. Approx. 110 pilots resigned last year, January to end Of December, give or take a few. That's not 2%. But is in the vicinity of 8-10 pilots walking away every month. That is not insignificant when actual age 65 retirements are far and in between. Fleet growing and pilot numbers stagnate around 3800. Does anyone here believe that any "first tier" airline has that many resignations per month? That's what the branding says we are.

[alwayzinit]

The posted numbers matter not one jot.


What matters is the negative critical mass being reached? I seriously hope not.


Why? Because it would need a unbelievably talented management to survive the lip of the abyss.


EK IS the Golden Goose that not only lays for the 9th floor but for you and your families as well.


Lets not to cut off our noses to spite our faces, eh guys?

[LHR Rain]

Okay Always In It we will just bend over and take all the crap and "hope" it gets better here. You might not have a better place to go or think Emirates is the place to be but I invite you to pull your head out of your arse and smell the coffee. I don't like taking it in the arse but maybe you do or are use to it with your Ryanair mentality.
The sooner the word gets out weather it is to the GCAA, Airbus, or prospective pilots the sooner things will change here. There is no reason to treat us like they do and when Soft C0ck$ like you defend the company and say it isn't so bad it only incourgages the management to continue with the floggings.
Emirates is not the only game in town. It is not even the best option in the Middle East anymore and prospective pilots are starting to,realize that. 10 year upgrade with the way mangement treats its pilots? Who is going to sign up for that?

[alwayzinit]

Wow!

Sadly the expectation of an adult response was in vain.

From your spelling "Drizzle" I suggest less personal insults or assumptions and you take more water with it.

Moving on now from the "pigs table" and rejoining those in the real world.

Bless you.

[harry the cod]

When people under the convenience of anonymity feel empowered to accuse fellow colleagues of being 'soft cocks' or 'limped dicks', maybe, just maybe, they should stop for a minute and look at their own integrity. How many of the likes of LHR Rain and Algon'n crusader will still walk into a cabin crew brief 23 minutes before official report? How many of you will also report for a duty that departs at 0710 following a Day Off knowing full well it violates the OMA if the unofficial 'Timeline' is followed? How many of you have the balls to question these and other anomalies that we pilots 'ignore' to keep our heads down and do the job.

Before the next onslaught of mud slinging, just be honest with yourself. Hypocrisy is not a nice trait to behold! :=

Harry

[Panther 88]

All true Harry. But to defend the practices of a culture, re company, that "enforces" what all are talking about does get to people. I agree with what you say,but the fear factor is always there. And they know they can manipulate the pilots through fear and intimidation. Thus we see a bit of the Stolkhom Syndrome. Anger spews out when our own ilk buy into it.

[TransitCheck]

Something to consider for someone with computer tech knowledge would be to create a website so that EK guys/gals can keep in touch using their real names and network with those who have left EK for greener pastures. That way those of us who want to leave can have questions answered and maybe some advantage of an "in" at these companies to aid in a mass exodus. Just a thought. I would be more than happy to sign up WHEN (not IF) I finally get out of here.

I do my fair share of badmouthing the company in the areas that it is deserved but on the positive note they have hired a good group of pilots to work with for the most part.

[alwayzinit]

Gents, the point I was, obviously unsuccessfully, trying to get across was simply that a M.A.D. approach (mutually assured destruction) does not serve anyone at all.
Safe flying everyone.

[nolimitholdem]

TransitCheck: brilliant post a few back. Absolutely the truth "between the lines".

harry: predictable. *yawn*

alwaysinit: I prefer the term "creative destruction" to "mutually assured destruction". EK is entering the part of the cycle where the sheer folly of much of it's "management", particularly in the area of actual PEOPLE management, is coming home to roost. If the dire situation in CC isn't an indication of a severe sickness, I don't know what is.

I say bring it on, the sooner the better. Firing a few HR managers is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

[koi]

Waiting for my sim candidates in the lobby,I watch your crews assembling in the Arora Hotel at Gatwick, waiting for their coach and nervously thumbing their iphones, knees together, heads down and looking thoroughly miserable. Then the flight deck arrive, various nationalities and tones looking absolutely pissed off to the teeth. No one is smiling, no one looks happy with life in the slightest. Their is a look of real FEAR on their faces even, mahoneykins. Sheezus. What have you created out their, a fuxxin monster.

[Cenrifugel]

Does anyone actually think that complaining on this forum will actually achieve anything? The company just doesn't care. Until the pilot body can stand together and actually do some something constructive about it, apart from just complaining on here all the time, nothing is going to change.

[BigGeordie]

Cenrifugal, the company doesn't care and won't unless flights are cancelled and/or aircraft parked. However, potential applicants read this forum (or they should!) and they have a right to be informed about what they are getting into.

[coveyducks]

Thanks Harry,

Nowadays, I am one of the 350 ish sat behind you. Most of us have plans & schedules to keep to so WE appreciate those who consider the customer!

Yes I want to get there in one piece and I am sure you do as well.

Please don't forget that PASSENGERS (or self loading freight as others might call us) are paying your wages so perhaps think of them a bit more!

A lot of the comments that I read are "ME, ME, ME!"

That's all folks.

[nolimitholdem]

Think you're missing the point entirely here. Double turnarounds were never regularly required in the past, now apparently they are. That speaks to mismanagement of crewing levels, which are not within the control of regular line pilots. So you're barking at the wrong people. Perhaps you could direct your comments to those who actually make the staffing decisions as I can assure you the workers at the coal face do have the best interests of the customers at heart.

But since you make the rather self-important statement about paying the wages, could we take this opportunity to ask for a raise? Seeing as airfares and wages have actually substantially declined in inflation-adjusted terms over the last 30 years.

[coveyducks]

Nolimitholdem, I assume that you are addressing me.

I am so sorry I have obviously got things wrong, I had no idea that you were being asked to break the contracts of employment that you have signed with your company.

If this is the case you will obviously have a very good case and you will no doubt go to a tribunal and win your case.

Being serious, I have no axe to grind but find it somewhat disturbing to read so many negative comments.

I would have thought that a spirit of cooperation between crews and operations would have been beneficial to all and who knows a spirit of "You scratch my back ect" might prove beneficial to all.

BUT most important of all, KEEP SAFE!

[coveyducks]

Sorry Nolimitholdem, I tried to ignore your jibe but I can't.

I did not say I paid your wages I said Passengers did, which I believe is correct.

I am surprised that you, who I am guessing, are intimately involved with the aviation industry do not realise that the real reason that fares have reduced in relation to inflation is due to technology and not "THE PASSENGER" refusing to pay more.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Covey,

Next time you are self loading freight and accelerating down the runway prior to take-off ask yourself where you would like to place your trust if an engine quit at critical speed

A) Technology

B) A low cost pilot with minimum training to tick the regulatory boxes who feels fatigued, underpaid and worried about his or her future

C) A well rested, properly trained and prepared pilot who is sufficiently free of worries as to to be able to concentrate 100% on his or her job and your safety.

Just saying.

[Neptune Spear]

Covey Ducks

First of all I don't know why a pax is on a pilot web site but it is not password protected so read away.
It would be a lot easier to scratch each other backs if it was in fact reciprocal. For the last few years it has been a one way street and you can guess which direction that scratching is going.
The company doesn't even give us items that don't cost anything. When that is the fact the employees have to ask why? Do they even care about us and for the most of us that answer is most definitely no.
How to win friends and motivate people is the last thing on the company's agenda. Every good manager at any company in any industry says their employees are the company's most important assets. I defy you find even 3% of Emirates employees who say they are empowered and feel valued and that is all because of the management employeed by Emirates Airlines.

[coveyducks]

Banana, C of course, and I would also hope that the contract & conditions of work of the airline would provide for this and hope that the crew up front were sensible enough only to sign such a contract.

Please don't misunderstand me, I am very sympathetic to all crew, flight deck & cabin ( I am a retired military pilot myself)

I just got the impression that some on the forum had forgotten the passenger.

That's all, no ulterior motive!

[coveyducks]

Neptune, Even pilots can be passengers! I am a retired military pilot who likes to keep up with friends ect.

I also am about to take a flight with a certain Gulf airline which is what caught my eye when I was looking for something else.

I do not wish to get personal but I assume you have a contract of employment that you signed when you started with your company.

If your employer is breaking that contract then you obviously have a right for redress.

If you are no longer happy with the contract that you have, go elsewhere.

Simple!

[Touchthestars]

@coveyducks

By the mere fact that there has not been a serious accident so far, under prevailing conditions, is testimony that those on the flight deck up in front of you take your interests as a passenger very, very seriously indeed! :=

[BANANASBANANAS]

Covey, Can you define sensible please.

If the only options are

A) unemployment and mortgage default, or

B) sign a crap contract which overworks you, underpays you and generally treats you like crap.

Which is the sensible option? Because that is the choice way too many pilots have to make.

Your post betrays your ignorance of pilot employment, particularly expatriate pilot employment. You speak as though changing jobs is the easiest thing in the world to do. It isn't. Its bloody difficult. Kids at school, change of country, acquiring new licence, new type rating, wife's career considerations (most have to work out of necessity), just getting sufficient time off at the right time to attend interview in another country is not easy. And the real kicker is that Emirates knows that and trades on it. So when guys subject themselves and their families to those levels of frustration and disruption just to get out of Dubai you know things have already gone too far.

[Panther 88]

What Covey doesn't get is the terms and conditions (contract) that most signed up for at least Six years ago have been changed, canceled or ignored...with zero input, consultation, or consideration of the pilots who signed them. And the pilots plus CC have no way to grieve or complain about said changes other than accept and complain or leave, which hundreds of cabin crew are doing regularly.

[coveyducks]

Ah Banana,

You do have my sympathy but nothing that you have said is the fault of the passenger, but it is usually the passenger that suffers the most.

I am just pleading the case for the humble passenger and initially I was just thanking Harry who was the only person to mention passengers.

As to defining sensible, that's way above my payscale! More suited to someone at the pointy end!

But please Stay Safe and if you have a moment do "try" and consider us mere passengers!

[coveyducks]

Panther,

I find it amazing that contracts can be changed without the approval of management & staff.

There are quite a few of you so I am sure you could do a "class action" to defend yourselves.

As I have repeatedly said I am on your side (we all want a happy pilot up front!) but please don't forget your long suffering passenger.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Covey, I think I can assure you that we do consider the pax. But once again you betray your ignorance of Dubai. There is no such thing as a class action. The working relationship with the company is very simple. We play ball with them and they stick the bat up our a&&. When we have had enough, we leave.

My priorities, after safety of course are

My family
My crew
My pax





Company

If asked to justify that approach, it is really quite simple.

There are threats to four things in general.

My life
My marriage
My licences
My job

Have a guess which one I will choose to surrender first.

[coveyducks]

Banana,

Then we can agree on something, I admire your priorities!

I also think that in general "Us Passengers" get looked after very well.

My comments come from the recent experience of both of my children, on separate flights, having their travel plans ruined by "Crew Rostering Problems"

One EK flight and one BA flight.

I also know from talking to old friends who have done the Military/Civil shuffle that the practice of "Taking a sicky" for personal reasons is not unheard of and this is probably what leads to some of the problems.

Good luck with getting a system that works for you all and I do understand that it is very difficult in the Gulf area but from my experience you often achieve more by working with the system rather than working against it.

[Touchthestars]

@coveyducks

If you place too much emphasis on the 'contract', it's like eating the 'menu' instead of the 'meal' - and how could a waiter defend him or herself against the restaurant manager when the customer says he or she could do a 'class action'. The customer knows fully well that there cannot be a 'class action', yet never leaves a tip, nor even says to the waiter 'thanks for all you did under the circumstances'. No, you just say to the waiter 'it's all about you isn't it - it's all about ME, ME, ME'!!! So go on eating the 'menu', and enjoy!

[FNGDXB]

An interesting thread.

Covey talks about systems. The system in Dubai changes on a daily basis either by DL email or other operations notice to crew.

I am new to EK and do not plan on staying. I have been told a story involving a very senior manager being quoted and the words 'crew' 'lemons' 'squeeze' and 'discard' were allegedly used in the same sentence by him.

I have no idea if that is true or not but I can well believe it based on how undervalued and overworked I feel.

[coveyducks]

Touchthestars,

In the days when someone from the pointy end came to say goodbye I always said thank you, after all I was walking off the a/c at a gate so it had to have been a good trip!

It's now time to stop bashing the passenger, I am on your side, I was, after all, only thanking one of you for considering the passenger!

Yes, I get it your contracts are not what they might be but all I am saying is just spare a thought for the passenger, which I am sure you all do, even though you don't say so in your posts.

My wife is now telling me to stop otherwise we will get chucked off our flight next month.

Oh and if any of you are at the pointy end of flight EK~~~ on ~~Feb I would love a guided tour!

To explain the blanks, once overheard over the radio in Northern Ireland,

"I'm pissed off" "Hello unknown station send callsign over" "I'm not that pissed off"

Safe Flying to you all!!!!

[Trader]

Covey--if you are interested --ALWAYS walk to the pointy end at the end of a flight. I'm always surprised by how few ask for a visit these day, kids especially.

As for crews causing pax issues-- I would say that is extremely rare. Usually if someone is sick (or calling in sick) they give good notice. The issue becomes if there are so many sick that they can't cover flights and that is a management/company issue not an individual issue.

I also find, at EK in general, the pilots are highly professional and as frustrated as they are with the company they don't take it out on the pax or other crew (always exceptions of course).

The thread started with a comment about grounded aircraft due to lack of crew. If that happens, it is company issue and not one that can be solved by pilots. With the amount we are flying today there is no room left to 'help' out. If there was, I'd say the vast majority WON'T help - they have been beaten to death.

[TangoUniform]

Covey,
We would love to give you a guided tour, but not allowed. We would love to take a picture with you and the family at the gate in the cockpit after the flight, not allowed. We would love to stand at the door and thank our customers, but too much paperwork, logbooks, voyage reports, cabin crew logs to sign, etc. So when you don't see the cockpit crew, it's not that we are not appreciative, there's just too much to do afterwards, and I doubt you want to wait around for us to finish our work and have a chat.

[coveyducks]

Trader, Very well put, I now have a different perspective.

Good luck & Stay Safe!

[Touchthestars]

@coveyducks

Would love to give you a guided tour this end, but I'm fatigued and will be catching up on loss of sleep.

Regards to your wife, listen to her advice, it is wise.

G'day and G'night...

[coveyducks]

TU,

When I last saw the Captain saying goodbye I was getting off a Stratocruiser!

You might have to Google what they were but an early A380 with 2 decks! Nothing is new!

I know you can't do it these days and that times have changed.

In any case if it had been a less than perfect landing he (sorry it always was him then) spent his time saying that the other pilot had been at the controls!

Good Luck One & All!

[SOPS]

Convey,

I would have just liked the contract that I signed, and agreed to work under, be honoured. Nothing more, nothing less.

Even though it has not, I have always put my passengers first.

It is however, time to put my family and myself first. That's why I'm going home.

But be assured, right up to my last flight, I will always place my passengers first.

[ManaAdaSistem]

I would have just liked the contract that I signed, and agreed to work under, be honoured. Nothing more, nothing less.


Contracts in the ME have always been subject to "company policy".
If EK gave you a 10% payrise, would you say: No thanks, that is not in my contract?

[SOPS]

And as I posted this, I see that there now is a ad on PPRUNE inviting people to apply for first officer jobs with EK.

I thought we had hundreds of applications.:ugh:

Now it gets more interesting...when you click on the link, it refers to the fleet status for 2012. So someone, in a hurried desperation, has put up an ad from 3 years ago.

[chmila]

I can see how many times somebody use as resource SENIORITY LIST ..... me as well, only 1 real source of true information (hope) ....



but, how long does it take to stop us to be allowed see this information .... it is not business sensitive???

[Silky]

Over 350 resigned since April last year!! Checked the last list I had to today's!!:eek:

[Trader]

Mana--that is absolutely IDIOTIC!!!!!! A contract can always be amended when AGREED upon by both sides.

[SOPS]

I did not even bother replying to him, Trader.

[Schnowzer]

To help out some of the less informed posters that are quoting class action, be aware that type of action is illegal and I really wouldn't go there.

UAE LABOR LAW (http://uaelaborlaw.com)


The Law covers all aspects of the employer-employee relationship (Chapter 12), including matters related to employment contracts, restrictions on the employment of juveniles and women, maintenance of records and files, wages, working hours, leave, safety and protection of employees, medical and social care, codes of discipline, termination of employment contracts, end of service benefits, compensation for occupational diseases, labour inspections, penalties and employment related accidents, injuries and death.

The UAE does not allow the formation of trade unions.



It makes an interesting read and offers protection in both directions to some degree.

[bringbackthe80s]

Just out of curiosity (looking at the advertisement banner here on pprune), is there any new program in place for fast command if you join now ?

[SOPS]

The answer is no, Bringback. And talk to the guys who came here on the promise of a fast track command, only to see the offer withdrawn once the got here.

Besides that, there are many, many highly qualified FOs awaiting their turn for upgrade. I have not done any actual sums, but the current thinking seems to be, if you join now an upgrade will take at least 7 years.

[airbusgirl66]

brokenenglish

Love the video! Gave me a good laugh! :ok:

[Al Murdoch]

The lead singer is giving me an idea for a new Trainers' uniform.

[Nikita81]

@brokenenglish

lol

http://youtu.be/iWOyfLBYtuU

[sheikhmahandy]

I think I have flown with the guy in the biker hat.

EK Management Pilot. :D

[Machspeed]

Expect phone calls from scheduling on days off....hope you give them the correct answer!

Don't answer the phone. Period

[Machspeed]

We are still only sitting at 3700...over two years ago we were over 3500, how many recruited since then? Everyone keeps telling us we are below industry average in attrition, I totally disput that!! :hmm:
We're at 4.65% attrition right now and growing.

[Desdihold]

March speed,
How did you arrive at the 4.6% attrition rate?
No doubting the figure but just wondering if it is from inside the company or through your own math.

Ek had always said they budget for 3% attrition, 4.6% would be 50% over that figure.

[Silky]

Apr last year we had more pilots than we have now and we have hired nearly 300:{:ugh:

Closer to 10%!!!!

[fatbus]

The guy hired mid jul 2014 has moved up @50, that accounts for cadets that were hired going above him.

[Desert Camel]

Silky, where do you get your numbers from? more pilots last year than now? Are you sure?


About 150 people left over the last year and half...


I'll let you work out the attrition rate.

[Machspeed]

I know the current seniority list can be wrong, but it will still tell an average. I've been saving the list at the first of every month for the last two years.

[Machspeed]

Silky, where do you get your numbers from? more pilots last year than now? Are you sure?


About 150 people left over the last year and half...


I'll let you work out the attrition rate.

You have to keep the lists every month and compare them. Silky is right that we had more last year. As well, there have been a lot of pilots leaving prior to their 36 months. It's not just the senior guys leaving.

[fliion]

Don't forget Cadet National Service....they are all going. The minimum time away is five months, some for nine.

Thirteen leaving this month, many more on their way. Perfect storm.

f.

[The Zohan]

Actual figures...

The following numbers show the seniority some pilots had on Jan 9th 2014 and the seniority they have now with the positions they gained:

3500 - 3393 (+107)
3000 - 2895 (+105)
2500 - 2405 (+95)
2000 - 1914 (+86)
1500 - 1427 (+73)
1000 - 950 (+50)

I'm somewhere between 500 and 600 and gained 30ish positions.

We were 3523 pilots and we're now 3777.

Attrition rate is exactly 3%

tz

[flaphandlemover]

Not takin ghost pilots in to account...
Come on... They have been lying to us for so long...
Exactly their predicted 3 percent....
Amazing how Ek gets it right...

Maaaaaagic....

[maddog62]

Not takin ghost pilots in to account...

ROFLMAO...!!

[fatbus]

Ghost pilots ....really.... Time to get hobby.

3%

[BANANASBANANAS]

Don't cadet pilots magically appear on the seniority list some way off the bottom once they are First Officers?

If so, this would increase the attrition rate figures would it not?

[The Zohan]

No, it would not...

tz

[Silky]

TZ.
Last year in apr the most junior guy was 3859.

Check again with those numbers. And if you have apr you will see his staff number and where he is today!

[The Zohan]

Check again with those numbers.

Silky

The last pilot hired in April 14 is now number 3489, if you think that since than 400 pilots left the company than you're the one who should check again...

I stand by what I wrote,

tz

[fatbus]

I have a friend of a friend joined July 2014 as of last week he has moved up @ 70 numbers on the list including cadets being added to the list .
I think most cadets are added to the list once they start their TR course. Some joined EK a fees ago.
Just don't exaggerate the numbers .
I think what The Zohan said is fairly accurate .

[ruserious]

Yep, I made it 120 spots moved up by the most junior guy in the last year, factor in a few who joined during the year and I would hazard a guess of about 140 in total.

[Silky]

Sent the Zohan the numbers I had for him to decipher. I await his response! No access to the actual numbers as am down route and the web is poor!

[The Zohan]

I responded...

[flymehigher]

Does anyone know what's happening with the swap department at EK? Sent a manual swap request through in the correct format that would actually reduce someone's hours in productivity and not heard a dicky bird. Thought they would have bitten my hand off but maybe they are fighting fires by actually trying to crew flights in the first place!
Does anyone have contact details for the swap department apart from the email address?

Cheers

[ekwhistleblower]

I was in the training college recently and there seemed to be a little doom and gloom amongst the trainers and 3 of the pilots I saw were leaving the company. One had no job to go to which is a departure from the norm.

Whilst I was there I also saw the red shirted newbies. The thought that struck me was that they were all happy, excited to be in Dubai, excited to join the company and looking forward to going flying.

I then heard from a TRE that this week there were 16 recruitment sim slots, 5 were filled and only 1 passed the sim. That should help improve the seniority list.

So back to the newbies, the next thing that struck me was how the hell does the company manage to destroy the goodwill and youthful exuberance of these vibrant young people in less than 3 years. If Emirates really wants to solve its issues that is the conundrum that must be solved. Childish bullying, ridicule and intimidation don't seem to have worked, maybe respect, trust and maturity will pay more dividends!

[falconeasydriver]

Thought for the day....

"In order to solve a problem..one must admit that a problem exists"

If that ever happens here, the pork section of Spinneys will be the second place where you will be able to view airborne swine.

[captainsmiffy]

EKwhistleblower.....and therein lies the crux of the matter. You and I, and indeed most others, can see this. Our lords and masters never will.....that is why morale has gone south, as will the company profits. Their choice.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

EKWHISTLE
Southwest Airlines mission
The 3 P's

People
Performance (that includes profits)
Planet

In that order the most important P :\

[LearBus]

That makes perfect sense then, habibi. There is no "P" in Arabic.

[in freedom]

Here's confirmation that people are leaving to no job. I recently did. With leave being rejected and rosters being manually destroyed month after month I couldn't even arrange for an interview for months. This is for a one day interview in Europe with a most accomodating and understanding HR manager. In the end I took the risk and left just to be able to apply for that job opportunity.

So to be very clear to anyone considering joining EK. You don't sign a work agreement in the Western sense of a contract. They believe that they own you after you sign. No matter what they tell you or give you in writing it is completely worthless.

When I did my interview we were proudly presented all the beautiful options of the rostering system and the fairness of a rotating bid etc. I listened very carefully when we were being told that you could bid for a string of 7 days off and had a good chance of getting that in your higher bid months. You might even swap for days off on either side.
By the time I joined 4 months later those 7 days were reduced to 5. Another few months down the road it became impossible to attach off days to any block of days off or vacation. In fact they made it a point to give you a meaningless duty inbetween so you couldn't leave Dubai. In 2014 I never managed to get 5 days off in a row on a date that I wanted. They always put some duty in the middle of it. In the end I felt like a slave trapped in a hostile land. Long gone were the memories of the joyful roadshow and hiring process in Dubai. Unfortunately the very professional and friendly members of the recruitment team are not part of the pilot management. They understand that you are a foreigner taking a big step to work in a strange land. Your masters will not. They don't care about your personal ties to your home land. Which is surprising when you look at the high value of family in the Arabic culture. But maybe it is not surprising if you stop for a moment and look at the builders, cleaners and other labourers that run Dubai. Don't look down on them. They share the same fate of complete lack of empathy only without the shiny uniform.

The important point is that EK can and will change things. Over night a new rule becomes law which could be a complete game changer for you. But you can't disobey nor disagree because now it is the law. In terms of being able to leave Dubai I found that it became next to impossible. Either your leave is being rejected or you are on reserve. Then there is a Sim, a manual handling sim, ground school or CRM manually inserted into your off days. The list is endless. All of a sudden you find yourself locked in Dubai for 4 months or more without a single day away outside of duty.

So in case you don't like it in the dusty city you will now have to use your annual leave to attend a hiring process somewhere else. Good luck knowing in October 2015 when you might get an interview in February 2017.

And that's why people leave without having a new job.

[Pucka]

Freedom..pretty much the same in CX…contract compliance has created what might be, another pre cursor to a 49 er…3 FO's sacked already, principally for commuting and minor contraventions of FTL but non the less, caused by making an effort to visit family outside HKG…RP's now being withdrawn, making days off, effectively a thing of the past, with punitive rostering such as you describe, becoming the norm. Undoubtedly, EK, CX etc all share corporate and management thought but the marginalisation of this industry..our profession..has to stop!! a public naming and shaming of those who break the code of ethics?