Scared PAX

[onthefly1]

Taking a flight from FLL to Dulles and Im terrified because of all the talk on the Lost Air Asia thread where pilots are talking about the issues and downfalls of the FBW systems in the Airbus A320 planes. Im taking an A319, and afraid that the FBW system is just too complicated to allow pilots to recover from a stall when they have several different error inputs being fed into the system. Maybe I should have taken an airline that flies Boeings instead. :uhoh:

[S.o.S.]

Hi onthefly1 and welcome to the 'cabin' of PPRuNe.

There are many anxious passengers and you are not alone, please look at the forum FAQ for previous threads of discussion.

I'll be back online later with more information but remember how many thousands of flights every day reach their destination and the very few each year that do not.

[ExXB]

There are over 6000 A320s (including A318, A319 and A321s) in service performing an average of six flights a day. This incident, like all incidents, is troubling but only because the actual cause is not yet known. Ignore the speculation on Rumour and News because it isn't anything but speculation.

As more information becomes known, as it will when the flight recorders are retrieved, it is likely that recommendations will be made to manufactureres and to airlines which will make this very safe aircraft type even safer.

Flying is the safest way to travel, by an order of magnitude. The most dangerous part of your journey is your drive to/from the airport.

[fa2fi]

An obvious attempt to stir the A v B debate. Statistically there's no proof either way that one is more safer than the other.

Boeings are by no way crash proof. Recent examples: TK in Amsterdam, Asiana in SFO, two 737s being crashing vertically into the ground during G/A in Russia as well as Thomsonfly coming seconds from losing a 737 in BOH. Icelandair 757 in OSL very nearly ended in tears. All perfectly serviceable planes.

And who can forget the hard overs nose into the ground issues the 737 suffered back in the 90s.

Fly a Boeing if it makes you feel better. They're american so automatically safer and better :ugh:

[KelvinD]

And make sure you don't fly on a B777.
Conventional yoke but fly by wire nevertheless.
And Concorde only ever crashed once and that had nothing to do with fly by wire controls. And that was the first commercial aircraft using FBW.

[Bergerie1]

onthefly1

Despite what you read in the media flying is safer than ever - don't worry. I speak as an old pilot - and certainly not a old one!

The 2014 myth - Learmount (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/learmount/2015/01/2014-wasnt/)

[Gibon2]

Im taking an A319

The A319 has been flying since 1995 (20 years). There are around 1400 in service. Over this time, and with this number of aircraft, most of which fly several sectors a day, the total number of people killed in A319 accidents is:

0

Yep. Zilch. (And only two hull losses, one of which was a prang on the ground during maintenance.)

So if your flight does go down, as the helpless pilots struggle hopelessly with the haywire FBW controls, at least you will have the satisfaction of making history.

Bon voyage.

[S.o.S.]

I, also, considered the possibility of this being a 'Troll' of the Airbus/Boeing question and so 'paused' the thread whilst I looked at the matter.
Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet))

However, I think that onthefly1 has asked a genuine question but if this proves otherwise, then action will be swift!

So I repeat my welcome to the OP (Original Poster) and thank those who have replied as this forum is here to answer these genuine concerns. If the OP would like to follow up their post? Or PM (Private Message) to me, that would be helpful

[onthefly1]

Thanks everyone for your genuine replies. I assure you I'm no troll - just a neurotic OCD type that runs 100s of "what ifs" in my brain with everything. Did they do prep for icing, what's the turbulence going to be like, can turbulence cause a plane to leave its envelope, does the FD have an advanced weather radar, etc. Believe me I hate being this way, but it is what it is. Typically I just self medicate with several drinks at the terminal but with the recent incidents, my neurosis has been getting worse. Anyway, thanks again for the responses.

[onthefly1]

By the way, my fear of flying started in 2009, when a very young captain of a small regional jet decided it was a good idea to fly from Denver to Casper, WY despite looming Dark CBs. We were getting tossed and thrown around for the duration of the entire flight. The flight attendant was strapped in the whole time. We made two approaches before aborting and diverting until the storm passed. Before that incident, I flew all the time all over the world. That flight permanently damaged me psychologically.

[jolihokistix]

onthefly1, I have two daughters, one like you who started to get nervous after a single experience, bad buffeting in turbulence, actually on an AF flight, on the same route and around the same time as AF447. She now gets prescription drugs from her doctor before any flight. Her aunt was like that too and latterly only ever went anywhere by ship. My daughter does get some relief now from asking questions and finding out in more detail how an aircraft works in differing conditions.

My other daughter is completely fine with flying.

Personally I fall instantly asleep from the moment the G forces start to push me back into my seat on release of brakes.

I wonder if it is genetic, or can anyone make the switch?

[redsnail]

onthefly1 I suggest that you resist the temptation to have some alcoholic drinks prior to flight. What would be a much better solution would be to book yourself onto a "fear of flying" course to better learn to manage the psychological effects. I have assisted on one that was run by Qantas and the participants really appreciated that course.

jolihokistix My personal opinion is that there are elements that can be inherited - especially temperament which would suggest that responses to challenging situations would be the same. I know a few families where the parent has a fear of X and the son/daughter has the same fear. The media and how they beat up a story certainly doesn't help. Don't get me started on learned responses... That's a whole essay there... :)

Back to onthefly1 :D
Prep for icing? There are protocols and standard operating procedures for dealing with icing conditions. The general rule is that thunderstorms also mean a lot of icing and severe turbulence. Some cells are more vicious than others. Personally, I give them a wide berth.

Can turbulence cause problems? Yes. Are you likely to ever experience severe turbulence, probably no. What you might call severe is by definition moderate. Note, I was not in the aircraft with you, so I can't say definitively. However, I fly a lot (it's my job) and I have never encountered severe turbulence. Moderate, yes. The aircraft are incredibly strong and the tolerances allowed for turbulence far exceeds what I'll put up with. However, there are methods for flying in turbulence that allow the aircraft to "do it's thing". If I (eg) try to control it, there is a risk that I will over stress the aircraft and damage it. Also, you do have to slow down a bit too. :)
We do have "significant weather" charts to look at and spot the likely areas of turbulence.

Weather radar. It's designed to pick up water droplets. Some of the newer designs will detect movement and give an indication of wind shear. The general idea is, the heavier the rain, that's where the thunderstorm cell is, so avoid that area.

Now to your flight that caused the problems. The very young captain? Well, I fly with guys who are in their mid-forties but look thirty so don't let their appearance dictate your opinion. :) There are 2 pilots so it wasn't "just his good idea". If there was no chance, then the flight would have been cancelled and believe it or not, someone would have complained about why the flight didn't go. He did the right thing, kept you all seated, had 2 approaches and diverted. Exactly what you want the pilots to do. The fact he's gone around meant that he's done the right thing safety wise.

When I flew in Australia, the abuse I got from the passengers about not flying at the scheduled time was unbelievable. Never mind that a cyclone (hurricane) had gone through the area only 6 hours ago and we were checking if the runway/airport wasn't flooded or destroyed....

However, I cannot stress enough, get yourself onto a fear of flying course. :D

[onthefly1]

Redsnail thank you for that comprehensive response.aybe that is a great idea to enroll in a fear management course. I'll look into what's available in LA. As for grounding a delaying flights, after that "incident" I have never complained. I will gladly wait it out on the ground for hours instead of experiencing that kind of fear and anxiety again. By the way, you guys earn every dollar you make. I'm in the camp to keep pay very competitive so we can always attract he best and brightest. I can't think of any other profession that requires the type of skill and quick intelligence as yours.

[grounded27]

The risk is ridiculously small. I know that does not make you feel better, this may... Air Asia was over open water requesting to climb over weather as I assume a course correction would have lost time and fuel, this happens over land as well but you will be within closer proximity to more diversion airports than Air Asia had availability to. Also you will be flying in denser airspace, your flight crew will have more advance warning of weather and turbulence. If you are still scared, go to your doctor ask for a sedative and chase it with a drink!

[Hotel Tango]

ask for a sedative and chase it with a drink!

If it really comes down to that, make it one or the other but NOT both!

[PAXboy]

Every member of cabin and flight crew will ask you to NOT take too much alcohol and to be VERY careful about sedatives on a flight.

[fdcg27]

FBW is a well proven system.
Boeing and Airbus implement it in different ways.
The Airbus implementation will prevent the crew from stalling the aircraft while Boeing assumes that anyone flying a transport class jet is at least minimally capable and will allow the aircraft to perform whatever control inputs the crew make.
Both the B737 and the Airbus single aisle aircraft have performed well in service. One is about as safe as the other.
I fly on both B737s of various generations and sizes as well as Airbus A318/319/320/321 aircraft on a regular basis and have no problem flying on either maker's aircraft.
Their hull loss records are very comparable, and hull losses among first world airlines have become quite rare.
Relax and enjoy your trip. It's not as though you'll be on an uncomfortable regional jet, although the CRJs and ERJs have a pretty solid safety record as well.

[S.o.S.]

As per my first reply to you, please do check the Forum FAQ (second thread listed on this forum and it always remains there). In the FAQ, there are links to two previous discussion threads on this topic.

Thanks for your contribution onthefly1, I hope that you stay with us. In discussions, when reading the replies, bear in mind that some of the folks who post in here can 'shoot from the hip'! So keep your seat belt fastened at all times...

[grounded27]

Another thing to think about. I feel anxiety around crowds, others find comfort being in close proximity to others. If the flight is not packed and you would prefer more personal space most F/A's would be happy to allow you to relocate to the back of the bus. On single aisle aircraft I would prefer a row to myself where I could get some sleep over a business class upgrade.

[Bergerie1]

I would strongly endorse redsnail's advice. Many airlines run fear of flying courses and you would probably find one very helpful. Good luck and here's wishing you happy flying.

[Herod]

Remember that the pilots are human too, and would prefer to grow old gracefully. I flew professionally for 39 years, and my take was simply: I've got a wife, children, nice house, nice life, I want to get home. If I felt any doubts about not getting to the destination safely, I didn't go. Try the fear of flying course; they seem to help. Then relax and enjoy the flight.

[Doors to Automatic]

According to my research there has not been a commercial airliner fatal accident involving FLL in 30 years (DL191) or 41 years in the case of IAD (TW514). In both cases safety improvements were made and following the investigations aircraft were fitted with Windshear detection and GPWS respectively so even those accidents are very unlikely to happen today.

I am not a betting man but I think the odds are very much in your favour that you will reach your destination in one piece! :p

[IBMJunkman]

onthefly1,

TV's Craig Ferguson was a nervous flyer. Someone said he had a control problem so he took flying lessons and got his license.

Too late now but perhaps a few lessons will allay the fear in the future?

[glendalegoon]

if you are afraid, cancel the trip.

see, you are in control. no one has to go to either fort lauderdale or dulles airport to live.

you are fully in control. you can cancel the flight, take the train, rent a car, take a bus.

or, take the flight and when you get on the plane, tell the flight attendant you are a nervous flyer and could you please say hi to the pilots?

Whenever someone comes on the plane and is afraid to fly, I always take time to chat with them and try to make things better for them.

[Mark in CA]

I was never a particularly anxious flier, but did get nervous on occasion, especially with unexpected aircraft movements. The thing that completely changed this for me and made me much more comfortable when flying commercially was to learn how to fly a small GA aircraft. Once you spend some time actually controlling a small aircraft and getting bounced around by things like thermal updrafts and feeling how the plane responds (it wants to fly) and attempting crosswind landings and such gives you a lot more confidence and had a dramatic effect on how I felt about flying commercially.

[PAXboy]

It is often said that the two aspects that most upset nervous passengers are:


Sudden changes in attitude of the aircraft
Noises under their feet, or sudden changes to engine noise

Once again, these are dealt with on fear of flying courses. I am fortunate that, as an experienced passenger, when I hear the noises and feel the attitude changes - I know what they mean and can understand the progress of the flight.

[UniFoxOs]

The Airbus implementation will prevent the crew from stalling the aircraft

Quite a lot of people seem to believe that.

[lurkinginSTO]

I have been through fear-of-flying therapy with a psychologist specialized in the matter. He also has a private pilot license and a small airplane (a Piper if I remember correctly), and tries to convince patients to take a spin in the tiny airplane as part of the therapy, after a few sessions.
I fly a few times a year, and got tired of being afraid. Just taking the step to go through therapy helped me in itself, because I felt I was doing something to address an issue that made me feel like an idiot everytime I took a flight.
The therapy helped me a lot!!! I understood the basis of fear, to accept that I was afraid and how to make it not take control over me. I even flew in the darned Piper!
I can't say I am totally off the hook but I have tools to control my fear, and don't lose my sleep before a travel.
Yes, it's expensive. But your health has no price! Do it!

[localflighteast]

I honestly do believe that taking flying lessons helps. I think it can assist in many ways,

1) you get to see exactly what is going on and understand that certain things are normal , like the change in engine pitch during climbs, descents etc

2) it acclimatizes you to the movement of a small plane so that turbulence in a larger one doesn't seem so bad

3) you become addicted to flying small aircraft and so no longer have the money to spend on foreign holidays ....

.... problem solved :ok:

[redsnail]

It can and it can't...
I know of a guy who was involved with the BA 747 that flew into the volcanic ash cloud that stopped all the engines. (Fortunately, they got 3 of them restarted).

He did the fear of flying course with Qantas twice. He took flying lessons and he was fine in any aircraft type except a B747. The irony being that it was the very fact that it was a B747 that meant he survived that accident.

Sadly, he was to fly to Melbourne from Sydney after his second FoF course. It was a B747, he got on but just before doors close, he bolted. :(

So yes, grabbing some lessons in a light aircraft will give you an understanding of flight and the various forces on it, but if there's a specific problem, it may not fix it.

[S.o.S.]

I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread and I've added it to the FAQ of fear of flying for future reading by new arrivals here.

[susier]

If I might offer the perspective of another avoidant passenger I think sometimes it isn't even about being up in the air.


It's more the sheer scale of the modern airliners and the number of folks you're surrounded by, the procedures, the sort of hidden stuff behind the shiny surface and gleaming smiles - stuff you aren't party to as an SLF, because it might freak you out I suppose - but the feeling that other people are totally in control of the situation, and you're not (for obvious reasons) can maybe be a trigger for a lot of people's fear.


I think it's part of mine. I've only flown twice - once there, and once back because I had to. I spent the week obsessively watching the weather forecast. Don't get me wrong, I adore aeroplanes and find them incredible to watch, in fact I'd pay extra to live under a flight path.


But going in a large one again is something I'd never do. Maybe it is my way of feeling in control in a big world, but it's just the way I am and luckily I don't have to travel. You know, sometimes a smaller, more bumpy plane is easier than something that doesn't even feel like it's moving - like you're not quite in touch with your surroundings, somehow - I know I'd far rather go in a tiny little turbo prop than an A380.


As a slightly feckless motorcyclist for many years though I wonder if there's a parallel in the way a lot of folk hate going pillion, but are happy to ride the beast themselves. Control, again, I suppose.


There's also the claustrophobia aspect which must affect a lot of folk. The 'not being able to get off if I want to' thing. That is probably the strongest thing for me. You can get off a boat, usually, somehow.


Thinking about it...how do planes stay up anyway? :}

[redsnail]

You're absolutely correct, fear of flying is often a manifestation of some underlying psychological issues. Mostly agoraphobia and claustrophobia. Which seem at odds but not really. General anxiety disorders play a part as well. So hence the reason why I always recommend seeing professional guidance, such as fear of flying clinics etc.

I also recommend to people who are mildly anxious to get familiar with how to get to the airport and the terminal etc. Familiarity reduces the stress.

How do aeroplanes fly?
Serious answer. Benoulli and Newton. Physics mainly.
Real answer. Money. No money, no aeroplane will fly.