Rostering / Minimum Rest / Fatigue

[ICURA?]

Dropped in for a quick read to see what was happening and read the bit about 10 hours being to short. I do agree with this....but the Europeon company I work for often schedules night stops of 8 &1/2 hours IN THE HOTEL and it is SCD to come back to 7 & 1/2 for schedule continuity. And I think there are a lot of other countries here with the same draconian measures.And yet our union quite happily goes along with it regardless of all medical evidence indicating to the contary.
So as a summary... it's not just your airplane and your fatigue which you can monitor...it's the other guy you have to watch out for. Just hope your not too sleepy to notice.

[Raw Data]

Couple of questions:

1) How is CAP371 relevant to a non-UK airline (ie Aer Lingus)?

2) As most people sleep for just under eight hours on average, how is this an issue of fatigue, and, by extension, safety? Fatigue is a defined medical condition and is not the same as tiredness.

Of course it is a pain in the rear to have to work having had minimum time off, but I can't see it being a safety issue unless it is a constant routine of min rest-max duty-min rest (which will soon be stopped in any case as max duty hour limits will come into play).

This is why split duties are perfectly acceptable under CAP371, as is reduced rest.

Nobody seems too keen to post the Irish regs, I wonder why?

Don't get me wrong- I would fight any move to go to less than CAP371 limits (if that were legal) in my airline. However, people need to be a little more accurate when arguing the issue. What this is really about is an erosion in the T's & C's of Aer Lingus crews.

I know a little about both tiredness and fatigue in aviation, having suffered from both- however it was not caused by what faces Aer Lingus pilots...

[BOAC]

"1) How is CAP371 relevant to a non-UK airline (ie Aer Lingus)?"

RD: As you have rightly pointed out, there has been no clear information on the Irish regs NOR on the exact nature of the 'change' by AL management - I did ask on the other thread a while ago for such. As such we are all a bit in the dark.

The 371 issue became relevant because there appears to be a mis-understanding of the UK regs in this area, which I was trying to open for discussion. It has also been suggested under the 'conspiracy theory' that certain UK airlines are next in line for an attack. Bear in mind also that the UK regs have been the 'framework' for many national regs in the past.

Your points on 'fatigue' v 'tiredness' are valid - it is just that excessive use of 'minimum rest' causes tiredness which can cause fatigue.

I do think this is a worthy topic in a forum like this, and that the travelling public should be aware of the possible work patterns of their crews. Perhaps Captain S would consider splitting this 'general' rostering issue away from the AL thread?

[Stan Woolley]

Raw Data

If as I understand it the rest period was to be 10 hours between duties, it could without doubt be fatiguing. I reckon realistically you'd be lucky to get six hours 'asleep', most of that restless.

Do you honestly believe if minimum rest was reduced to ten hours, it would rarely be used? Reduced rests (ie requiring Commanders discretion ) are very rare in my experience and night splits, although legal, are definitely tiring.

Call it fatigue / tiredness, whatever the hell you like, I know how knackered I often feel, within CAP 371 limits.

[Raw Data]

BOAC- quite.

Flanker- you are missing a whole lot of points.

If, within the scope of CAP371, you have a minimum of 9 hours in the hotel, there is no reason at all that you shouldn't get 8 hours sleep.

Any half competent hotel should be able to rustle up a room-service meal in 20 mins or so, and it never takes me more than ten minutes to prepare for the morning. The point is that as a professional, any pilot should make sure that they maximise their rest time when on a short rest period- the pilot has as much of an obligation to ensure flight safety as the airline does. One of the telling points about the recent Channel Four documentary was not so much the amount of alcohol they (allegedly) consumed, but that they knowingly (in one case) stayed up until 3 am or so when they knew they had an early report- not much interest in flight safety there then! This is, unfortunately, far too common.

If you find it difficult to sleep in a hotel, it isn't going to matter if you are there for an extra hour- you will still be knackered. That is the nature of the airline business, where night-stops are involved.

The other point you miss is that if airlines routinely roster you for min rest followed by max duties, you will very quickly use all your available duty hours- with the inevitable result being lots of time off! Most airlines are not that stupid, they know it is an inefficient way of rostering.

The reason for distinguishing between fatigue and tiredness is that they have different legal meanings (as well as different definitions) which is important when arguing the issue.

Like I said- this is more about T's & C's than flight safety (which is fair enough).

[Stan Woolley]

Raw Data

Not only am I missing a whole lot of points - all my points seem to be missing! Did someone delete my previous post?

Your points about the hotel are valid - if you're in a hotel! I was talking about ten hours off at home base.

Twenty minutes for a room service meal .....er yeah I suppose it could happen, and ten minutes to get ready - what's your uniform, a speedo cossie and a hat?

If you think you have to do max duties to get fatigued - think again. In theory with 10 hours off at home you could be rostered for a 0500 report finishing at 1100, then on again at 2100 for a night flight. A (very) few of those and you wouldn't be out of hours but you would be a walking zombie. And as I said earlier, if its legal, it will happen.

Yes of course there is a responsibility on both sides in these matters and like everything else there are individuals who might not use their off duty time sensibly. However if the ten hour rule was at home base even the most dedicated professionals may not get adequate rest.

PS I am aware that there are legal definitions for fatigue and tiredness but I don't need a definition to know that my performance is slipping because I've been subjected to crap (legal) rostering!:rolleyes:

Edit: OK I see what happened with the thread split.

[Raw Data]

Yeah OK fair enough.

The point about hotel times etc came from an informal survey of our crews for a company Rostering Practices Committee that I found myself involved with.

There are many, many ways you can get tired/fatigued without even approaching any limits, and that really makes my point- the Aer Lingus action, deeply offensive in implementation as it was, is not a safety issue, more a T's and C's issue.

Personally, I would rate having a baby in the house a far greater threat to flight safety, as many babies are experts at denying their parents sleep! Of course the SRG make no allowances for ones personal circumstances.

[Hogg]

The company I work for is working under IAA "recommendations"! minimum rest away from base is 11 hours or the length of the previous duty period, or 12 hours at base!;)

If we did say 13 hours duty, over 4 sectors , quite possible with delays, tech a/c , waiting perhaps for wx improvement, its a signed crew fitness declaration on Flight Report, but we wont be asked to reduce our rest.

Guess Im lucky eh?

Hogg.

[Safety's No Accident]

Be under no illussions - if you're bushed (tired / fatigued - call it what you will) and whilst driving home after a flight you nod off and cause a road crash that kills people - you will be procecuted for manslaughter / murder !

That is YOU will be the person responsible and in the dock, and not your company and / or its CAP371 (legal) rostering scheme.