Short Stirling

[Prangster]

My late stepfather served half a tour on 7 Sqn Stirlings (previously flying in Wimpies) He then spent a rest tour helping evaluate the B17C for RAF service before heading back on ops. He was always adamant that the early Stirlings though plagued by u/c and throttle problems were far better aircraft than we now allow for he was convinced that the first production batch climbed higher faster and flew further than any of the subsequent machines.


Cookies take on this was that he thought that after Rochester had been bombed by the Luftwaffe all subsequent production a/c were built with the wing incidence slightly out and no one noticed.


Anyone out there with there have a better theory? Just down the road from out house stands a memorial to a Stirling Crew who fell to earth in 1944

[DC10RealMan]

I am not too sure about higher and faster, but it was reported that it was much more maneuverable than the Lancaster and Halifax and was able to out turn a Hurricane in fighter affiliation exercises.

[evansb]

http://i1047.photobucket.com/albums/b477/gumpjr_bucket/stirling1.jpg

[RedhillPhil]

There was too little wingspan for the size of the aircraft due to the RAF's insistence that it fitted into the 100' wide hangars. That is a well known fact.
I have too heard the tale that an empty one - because of that - was really rather manouverable for an aircraft of that size.

[Dash8driver1312]

I have never read a single account of Stirlings flying higher, and lots of it being below the other heavies, and having to navigate through the Alps on the raids against Turin...

[diginagain]

That is a well known fact.Of course, the beauty of such statements is that you can support it with a source.

[oldpax]

Air Ministry Specification B.12/36 called for the design and development of a strategic four-engined heavy bomber that could quickly is placed into production, giving the RAF Bomber Command a high-speed aircraft capable of delivering a large bombload at long ranges. It was to be crewed by seven or eight men with defensive armament consisting of multi-gunned nose, ventral and tail turrets. The initial maximum take-off weight had to be between 48,000 lbs (21769 kg) and 53,000 lbs (24036 kg), but with the capability of that figure being increased to around 65,000 lbs (29478 kg). The weapons bays also had to be compatible with all standard RAF bomb ordnance in use at that time. The specification also demanded that the aircraft be capable of lifting off a 500 ft (152.4 m) runway and is able to clear 50 ft (15.2 m) trees at the end, with the wingspan not exceeding 100 ft (30.48 m).

[India Four Two]

It was only a couple of years ago that I noticed the Stirling had twin tailwheels. Does anyone know why?

Here's my favourite Stirling picture with Joan Hughes for scale:
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/india42/stirling99_zps655cad76.jpg

[ian16th]

Isn't it true that the Stirling was the 1st a/c that Short's built with an undercarriage?

Everything the built before this floated!

[Peter-RB]

I am sure that TV prog about the Women Aux Pilots who flew new aircraft all over the UK to bases also mentioned they flew the Sterlings and Lancasters as well well as more mundane everyday things like Spits and Mustangs.

Peter R-B

[Haraka]

Isn't it true that the Stirling was the 1st a/c that Short's built with an undercarriage?
No , not by a long way.
Includes the Silver Streak of 1920, all duralumin and claimed ( erroneously) by some sources as being the first all metal aircraft , The Springbok,Gurnard series, the Scylla airliner( bit like an H.P.42) plus various other types that had land/sea alternatives.
But I think it's fair to say that it is the flying boats and seaplanes that come first to mind.

[Fareastdriver]

The specification also demanded that the aircraft be capable of lifting off a 500 ft (152.4 m) runway and is able to clear 50 ft (15.2 m) trees at the end, with the wingspan not exceeding 100 ft (30.48 m).



????????????????????????????????

To to the second trick it would have to get airborne in three wingspans. A Feisler Storch coudn't do that.

[Stanwell]

I42,
There was another thread on here recently in which we got into the Stirling in some detail.
You might like to refer to that.

[Flybiker7000]

That makes actually one common detail between the Halifax and the Saab Draken: Twin tailwheels :-o

http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acimages/saab35draken_karldrage.jpg ;-)

[India Four Two]

om15,

Thanks. I wasn't aware that they were retractable.

[Noyade]

The specification also demanded that the aircraft be capable of lifting off a 500 ft (152.4 m) runway and is able to clear 50 ft (15.2 m) trees at the end,
Dunno why they plant trees at the end of a runway, but the Stirling came up 'Short' meeting that part of the specification as I have at 57,400 lbs it took 1,160 yards to clear that big tree and at 70,000 lbs 1,380 yards.

RAF's insistence that it fitted into the 100' wide hangars.Wasn't Mason the first author to prove there were no 100 ft hangars, they were all 126 ft at the time of the specification?

http://i58.tinypic.com/2a6jw46.jpg

Isn't it true that the Stirling was the 1st a/c that Short's built with an undercarriage?If you meant retractable, then yes, I believe the Stirling was Short's first production aircraft to feature this, although the half-scale wooden S.31 was first into the air. Incidentally, I read the S.31 was the only four-engined aircraft that Eric Brown looped.

http://i59.tinypic.com/w6qum9.jpg

And from elsewhere on the net I found this. Harris was no fan of Oswald or the Stirling?...

Harris wrote a fantastic letter to Sinclair, Secretary of State for Air, in which his opinion of the Stirling, and the Short management, and the Halifax and Handley Page are made very clear indeed.

"I understand that the Stirling is to go in favour of the Lancaster as fast as the changeover can be achieved. But it will not be fast, or achieved at all with goodwill and good intent, as long as His Majesty's Government balk at the issue of taking the Stirling management away from the incompetent drunk who at present holds our fate in his hands. The Stirling Group has now virtually collapsed. They make no worthwhile contribution to our war effort in return for their overheads."

[PPRuNe Towers]

Towers Senior was also 149 Squadron - arrived to Wimpeys and OCU training over to the Stirling initially at Mildenhall and later around the local satellite fields.

His ops covered everything from the earliest 1000 bomber raids through to later 'gardening' missions at low level over French rivers and estuaries which he found by far the most stressful.

It was the very earliest missions where he mentioned performance most critically. Over the Alps to bomb Northern Italy's manufacturing base.

Return fuel? Nominated bomb load? He claimed they never made the equivalent of MSA once outbound over the Alps and they never got within 30 knots of projected airspeed.

Hospitalised twice - ditching off the East Anglian coast and rescued by the Southwold lifeboat and later a delayed takeoff, overheated engines, crash after take off with bomb load blowing up. Spent a very long time at Ely after that.

Rob

[Prangster]

Hi prune towers. Possible that stepfather Flt Lt Horace Cooke DFC and your relative served together. Cookie went from 149 to 7 in late 1940. Finished the tour and wandered to I think 90 evaluating the B17 before coming back to ops on 156 where he was signals leader. Don Bennett finally threw him out after 68 ops sending him to Canada to cross train as a pilot. His verdict on the B17 was marvellous aeroplane but a lousy bomber.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Afraid I can't check up Prangster - my dad is no longer with us and his log book went during a move across the Atlantic. Spent hour after hour poring through them but that was all before the age of 10.

Rob

[Mechta]

His verdict on the B17 was marvellous aeroplane but a lousy bomber.

I've heard it said that the P-38 Lightning did with one man and two engines, what the B-17 Flying Fortress did with 10 men and four engines. Is there any truth in that?

[DC10RealMan]

Not the P38 Lightning but the De Havilland Mosquito.
The rationale was that the two engined and two crewed Mosquito carried a larger bombload than the American bombers which were being used in England at the time.

[Flybiker7000]

[The Mosquito] . . . . That will be bombweight pr. crew as the Mossie certainly not could lift 8 ton bombload!

[Haraka]

. That will be bombweight pr. crew as the Mossie certainly not could lift 8 ton bombload

Mosquito in 1943 could take a 4000lb Bomb load c. 2000 miles at 240 mph
B17E about the same ( 4000lb Bomb load c. 2000 miles at 224 mph ).
That was the comparison.
" Same bomb load to Berlin" IIRC.

[joy ride]

Not wishing to diminish the Mossie's amazing abilities for its size and power, but I always thought that B17s in Europe took a bit more like 5,000 - 7,000 lbs of bombs.

[Haraka]

The B-17's load carrying capacity dropped off dramatically with range, effective radius of action being around 800 nm with 4000lb of bombs. Max bomb loads, quoted outside of range and flying speed data, can be very misleading.

[joy ride]

Many thanks for that. Makes my appreciation of Mosquitos and Lancasters even greater!

[Haraka]

All crewed by extremely brave men , whatever.

[Stanwell]

Haraka,
Yes, thanks for that. You got in while I was looking for my reference material.
Also.. Brave men indeed!

[Haraka]

Just as a follow up to bomb loads (and payloads) being expressed in "tons", since this caused some working confusion during Anglo-American operations in WW2.
Although both American and Imperial tons are each 20 hundredweights. The U.S. hundredweight is 100lb ( avoirdupois) whilst the Imperial hundredweight is 112lb.
Thus an Imperial ton is 2240lb, whilst a U.S. ton is 2000lb.

These are, in common parlance, referred to as "Long" and "Short" tons.

Thus a British 10 ton " Grand Slam" would have been 11.2 tons in American units.

P.S. The European 'tonne' is 1000kg., not too far short of the Imperial ton and now pretty much well adopted.

[Heathrow Harry]

Saw a Stirling fly when I was kid at a Battle of Britain Day in the '50's...

Not terribly spightly IIRC

never got over the size of the undercarriage .......

[Haraka]

Saw a Stirling fly when I was kid at a Battle of Britain Day in the '50's...

H.H. Memory does plays tricks you know :) ....

(IIRC the Stirling retired from RAF service around 1947 )

If 1950's, possibly a Hastings?

[Herod]

Haraka, I'm pretty sure there was a Stirling at the Cosford BoB day in 1952. It wasn't flying though, so perhaps an instructional airframe? Mind you, I have to admit that I was only five at the time, but already aircraft orientated.

[VX275]

It should be remembered that following the Stirling's removal from front line bombing it became arguably the best airborne forces aircraft in the allied inventory. Being able to carry more paratroops than any other, drop more stores and capable of towing all the gliders.

[SPIT]

I have a video entitled Speed Up on Stirlings which shows the design and the factory modifications and finaly the building of this a/c. If you can still get this film it is well worth seeing by anyone who i8 interested. :ok::ok:

[Herod]

Further my post, if it was a Stirling (and I'm pretty sure it was), visitors were going up a very long ladder to enter a hatch below the nose, walk down the fuselage and exit somewhere near the tail. My mother told me I couldn't go because I was too small to manage the ladder.

[Wodrick]

R-BWMlCwzA8

[Lookleft]

Great footage! Stirling production looked more like a cottage industry than the Empire at war. I liked the statement about the undercarriage being a nice bit of design. Probably was but it also seemed to be a complicated piece of machinery. It was nice to see the work done by the woman to be so highly praised.:D

[rolling20]

Another thing that counted against the Stirling was its bomb bay. It was divided into compartments, which ment it could not carry a 4,000lb Cookie, unlike the Wellingon, Lanc, Halibag and Mossie ( modified).

The unsung role of the Stirling was ( as PPRuNe Towers has mentioned) minelaying, from which the Stirling suffered heavy losses. My own Great Uncle's crew was lost from 149 Squadron one night in December 42, along with three other crews (one was an early return). I believe there were no survivors from any of the four aircraft.

[Heathrow Harry]

defo NOT a Hastings Haraka - might have been a Mk V transport tho'

[oxenos]

"Another thing that counted against the Stirling was its bomb bay. It was divided into compartments, which ment it could not carry a 4,000lb Cookie, unlike the Wellingon, Lanc, Halibag and Mossie ( modified)."

Welington bomb bay was also divided (into 3), but could I believe take a Cookie.
Stirling also carried bombs in the underside of the wing between the fuselage and the inboard engines. The doors were opened by the exiting bombs and closed by bungees.

[Old-Duffer]

VX275,


A small clarification if I may. The Stirling could not operate with the Hamilcar glider. This required the Lancaster or Halifax and as the former were not released for airborne forces tasks, it was the Halifax which towed the Hamilcar to war, mainly the Mark III version with Hercules engines.


By this stage, the tugs and gliders operated from the same bases and the working relationships which built up between the crews was impressive.


After Arnhem and the very heavy losses of glider pilots, 1200 RAF pilots were trained and seconded to the Glider Pilot Regiment and formed about half the glider pilots who flew on Op VARSITY - the Rhine Crossings.


Post war, later versions of the Halifax - A7 and A9 continued in the airborne forces support role until the arrival of the Hastings.


Old Duffer

[Haraka]

Hi H.H.
This fascinates me. The Halifax lingered on ( Met flying and parachute testing) until around. c.1954.
The reason I wonder, is that both of these H.P. aircraft had undercarriages " Hewn from the living rock" and to a small boy would have seemed gigantic.
Can you remember anything more ?-(or can anyone else chip in on this one?)
Cheers,
Haraka

[Herod]

Hi Haraka. Me again. My mother also told me it was a Stirling at Cosford. She was a bit of an aircraft-nut, and anyway there was probably a sign in front of it. As you say, puzzling. It seems Cosford at the time was home to No. 2 School of Technical Training, so an instructional airframe may make sense.

[VX275]

I'll agree that the Stirling wasn't used to tow Hamilcars operationally but the Stirling was capable of towing the Hamilcar. I'm fortunate to have a number of original AFEE reports and the two numbered T12 and T13 cover the trials of a Stirling Mk1 towing the Hamilcar whilst T32 covers the trials and recommendations for the Stirling Mk IV towing a Hamilcar, what the services did with them after that was their problem.
I'm glad you mentioned the Lancaster in the role of glider tug (it was also cleared for paradropping but not with as many troops as the Stirling could carry).

[rog747]

i have just stayed at a wonderful B&B at the old control tower at RAF north creake in norfolk near wells next the sea

The Control Tower B&B. The Control Tower - old North Creake Airfield (http://www.controltowerstays.com/)

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Control-Tower-old-North-Creake-Airfield/285585778171932?ref=hl

it was a stirling base and was instrumental in 'window' and mandrel' countermeasures
http://shop.controltowerstays.com/products/272756--raf-north-creake-a-brief-history-booklet.aspx

a wonderful and unique insight into WW2 bases and the stirling
they sell this book too which i have yet to read
The Control Tower B&B. Let Tyrants Tremble - The War Diaries of 199 Squadron (http://shop.controltowerstays.com/products/272755--let-tyrants-tremble-the-war-diaries-of-199-squadron.aspx)

[Volume]

That makes actually one common detail between the Halifax and the Saab Draken: Twin tailwheels :-o
And common with Concord (http://www.concordesst.com/model101/taster/sd5.jpg), of course :ok:

[Heathrow Harry]

somewhere I may have a picture - in the back of the loft..............

[brokenlink]

Is there any update on the Russian Stirling that was rumored to be moving westwards (in pieces) a few years ago?

[ExAscoteer]

VX275,
After Arnhem and the very heavy losses of glider pilots, 1200 RAF pilots were trained and seconded to the Glider Pilot Regiment and formed about half the glider pilots who flew on Op VARSITY - the Rhine Crossings.


Actually it was closer to 2/3. My Late Father being one of the RAF Glider Pilots who took part in VARSITY.

[thegypsy]

brokenlink

Re Russian Stirling

The Stirling Project used to have newsletters and No 10 which on its front page had a picture of a painting of a Stirling from XV Squadron returning from Turin by Philip West 04/02/43 ( which my father was also on ) had on its second page wholly devoted to this supposed Russian Stirling.

Unfortunately all these newsletters went off line when they changed website which was a pity.

The final note was from Andy Vernon Aug 2008 who as Air Attache was leaving Moscow and due to bad relations with Russia at that time ( what's new there ) said his replacement had been refused a visa. He also mentioned it was beyond the authority of the Russian Air Force to investigate. It needed to go further up the political chain.

Guess nothing more has transpired??

[Herod]

Not a restoration as such, but this is interesting.

The Stirling Aircraft Project (http://stirlingproject.co.uk/)

[Four Turbo]

My great friend Bob Rutter was on Stirlings during the war on SOE ops. He always said that the long undercarriage was as a result of the 100 ft wingspan limitation. Seems odd if that was not in fact needed? Long u/c then caused problems on takeoff and landing (gyro effect etc. if my long-ago QFI training recalls correctly). This apparently lead to some spectacular crashes in inexperienced hands. Anyway I have some of Bob's memoirs if anybody is interested in Stirlings at war. Switches -- CONTACT.

[ancientaviator62]

Four Turbo,
very interested but perhaps IMHO it may be of more interest on 'Gaining a Pilot's brevet in WW2' over on the Military site. Deapite the title this Prince of threads is very wide ranging.

[bosnich71]

Stirlings were also built at the Metropolitan - Cammell works at Elmdon airport,Birmingham. Used to wheel them across the railway line.. via a bridge... to the airfield and then fly them away to where ever.
I had a close friend who worked there as did his Mom and Dad and future Wife. He also, at times, used to ride to work at Castle Bromwich in company with Alex Henshaw, both by bicycle.

[megan]

Much is made about the width of the hangars and the Stirlings wingspan. If you compare with the Lancaster and Halifax there is not much in it. I would venture that the long undercarriage has more to do with the much larger physical size of the Stirling, particularly its length, which dictates the undercarriage length to obtain the desired ground attitude.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/British_WW2_bombers_comparison.png

[Stanwell]

megan,
Thank you, the tall main U/C makes sense now.
"..to obtain the desired ground attitude"

I'd wondered about that for years.

[thegypsy]

Can we all agree that with the gear up in flight the Stirling was the best looker?

[pax britanica]

Megan

Thanks for posting that fascinating diagram. I must admit I had no idea the Stirling was so much bigger than the Lanc or how dramatic that kind of 747 style nose compared to the squatter Halifax and Lanc. for looks I always liked the Halifax best but never seen any except the BBMF Lanc for real as too young for that (if not much else) . Be interesting to see how the B17 compares too actually.
the Lancaster with it mighty payload really was a flying bomb bay wasn't it , highlighting a terrific design job to get the weight carried with as little airframe as possible.
Thanks again

[papajuliet]

That's a brilliant diagram Megan. I thought I knew a lot about those aircraft and knew of their differences in size but I've never seen them illustrated so well.

[IFPS man]

Anything further on the "Stirling at Cosford" comment?
Thanks

[Dr Jekyll]

I always think it's a pity the RAF museum at Hendon no longer seems to have models on display. If there isn't a Stirling or intact Halifax to display, models of Lancaster Halifax and Stirling to the same scale and side by side would make it much easier to compare them.

[Heathrow Harry]

Megan

very very good

I was rereading Masons Putnam "British Bombers since 1914" and he says there never actually was an RAF hanger that was 100ft wide when they issued the Spec. - some were bigger and some were smaller.

Seems it was another one of those idiot numbers dreamt up on high that screwed everything up

The other thing he mentioned was the undercarriage - the Ministry test pilots were worried that it wouldn't be able to take off from all the grass strips still around (it actually would have been OK) so he lengthened the height of the u/c to give it a better angle of attack on takeoff

Interesting to compare the height of the Wellington and Lancaster u/c with the Stirling

[Herod]

Interesting to compare the height of the Wellington and Lancaster u/c with the Stirling

That makes me even more certain that the aircraft I saw at Cosford in '52 was a Stirling. I can only assume, as before, that it was an instructional airframe left over from earlier times. There doesn't seem to be any record that I can find, and there is no-one left I can ask.

[Heathrow Harry]

same here - that undercarriage was unforgettable...............

[RedhillPhil]

Just found this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=85114404&v=WaN91_NGJoI&feature=player_detailpage&x-yt-ts=1422579428#t=2


I rather suspect that the airfield in the second part is Oakington as that's an LNER train in the background and the Cambridge - St. Ives line ran close to the airfield.

[aw ditor]

It is Oakington, the railway line is now the Guided Busway. Mushroom type Pillboxes still there!

[Fareastdriver]

MacRobert's Reply. Another donation was Alastrian House in Scotland. It started off as a leave centre with a 9 hole golf course plus extras. It eventually became a residential home for RAF pensioners and;or their spouse under the auspices of the Royal Air Force Benevolent Society. A description of the property can be found here.

Alastrean House - The MacRobert Trust (http://www.themacroberttrust.org.uk/the-estate/alastrean-house/)

My mother went there but left it for a hospice before the RAFBF released it and it was taken over by a commercial company. She had a very happy time there but it seems to have gone downhill since the RAF left.

North-east care home branded 'weak' in report - Local / News / Evening Express (http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/local/north-east-care-home-branded-weak-in-report-1.832687)

[Tiger_mate]

I was inspired by this thread to create an oil painting of an RAF Stirling bomber during WWII; having landed in the early hours after an overnight bombing mission. The oil painting took me 4.5 months to complete; measures 36"x24" and looks like this:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Jun-2015/984204-image.jpg

I shall title it ' Maximum Effort ' after Bomber Harris' directive during the bombing campaign. It is a Short Stirling MkIII.

[Herod]

Tiger mate. Very, very well done, as are all your efforts.

[Archimedes]

That makes me even more certain that the aircraft I saw at Cosford in '52 was a Stirling. I can only assume, as before, that it was an instructional airframe left over from earlier times. There doesn't seem to be any record that I can find, and there is no-one left I can ask.


There was a Stirling at Cosford - N3637 (3361M) according to 'The Stirling File'. It was (according to Michael Bowyer's book) struck off charge in February 1945.


Since the last Hampden was doubtless struck off charge some time before it was burned at Bicester in (IIRC) 1955, I daresay that there is a chance that it was still around in 1952 and subsequently scrapped?

[bean]

Smashing paintingTiger Mate but, why is a fuel bowser at the aircraft on arrival?

[Tiger_mate]

Ref:Fuel Bowser

.... Because the memoirs of an old boy stated that to be the case. Compared to todays squadrons, there were a lot of aircradt and the bowser fuel transfer rate was not exactly pressure refuel. Furthermore they had to physically transit to a fuel farm before moving onto other aircraft. The armourers would be along soon enough but an aircraft with fuel can be moved at short notice if required - an empty aircraft is a sitting duck. I did have the timings applicable to a refuel, but they are not to hand.

[Herod]

Thanks Archimedes, that makes sense finally.

[diginagain]

That makes actually one common detail between the Halifax and the Saab Draken: Twin tailwheels :-o
Do you mean common between the Stirling and the Draken, as the Halifax has a single tail Wheel?

[chevvron]

Smashing paintingTiger Mate but, why is a fuel bowser at the aircraft on arrival?
In the RAF, that's SOP.(Standard Operating Procedure)
You always refuel aircraft just after they land as this means they will be ready for the next trip.
Probably originated during the B of B when fighters could be scrambled again within minutes of
landing from a sortie.

[megan]

The bowser in Tiger_mate's painting has a 2,500 gallon capacity. Considering that was about the capacity of a heavy bomber (Lancaster 2,154 gals) and pumping at (I believe) 65 gallons/minute would take some 30 minutes/aircraft. To fill a squadron of twelve aircraft........... How many bowsers do we have in the MT pool Chiefy?

http://www.accurate-armour.com/Graphics/K48002e.jpg

[diginagain]

In addition to the mission-readiness aspect, fuel-tanks less than full will have the remainder of the space filled with air. As the air cools - warm, moist air in a cold-soaked airframe for example - any water vapour in that air may condense on the tank-walls, leading to significant amounts of free water in the bottom of the tank, just waiting to get pumped into the carbs.

[ancientaviator62]

When I was groundcrew in Fighter Command in the early sixties we always refuelled the Hunters and Javelins as they landed back from a sortie. This was due to the water in fuel problems already mentioned.

[diginagain]

Jet A-1 and it's derivatives also suffered from a bacterial growth on the water-fuel interface, Cladosporium Resinae, hence the desire to keep conditions for it's growth to a minimum.

[netsurfa9]

My Uncle now 94 was the sole surviver of the the Stirling crash at Gils Klint Forest on the 18th May 1942. There is now a very good Web site and a Facebook page dedicated to the Stirling and the MacRoberts family MacRobert's Reply (http://www.macrobertsreply.com) and the MacRoberts Reply story on Facebook.

[Herod]

Last night I watched a film called "One of Our Aircraft is Missing", made in 1942. Towards the end, there is a small section featuring Stirlings. That makes me absolutely certain that what I saw at Cosford BoB day in 1952 was a Stirling. Archimedes post 70 ref being struck off charge some time before it was destroyed makes sense

[rolling20]

Saw a programme Thursday night on Yesterday called The Nazi Exiles. Towards the end there was a clip of 3 Stirlings in low formation over a parade in Egypt. I am guessing they were MkVs. The commentary was talking early 50s, although I believe they were scrapped by 1951. Either way it was a brief but delicious clip.

[India Four Two]

rolling20,

Fantastic lead. Thanks.

See 38:00

sa-eRFiuPao

[Supers2014]

Hi prune towers. Possible that stepfather Flt Lt Horace Cooke DFC and your relative served together. Cookie went from 149 to 7 in late 1940. Finished the tour and wandered to I think 90 evaluating the B17 before coming back to ops on 156 where he was signals leader. Don Bennett finally threw him out after 68 ops sending him to Canada to cross train as a pilot. His verdict on the B17 was marvellous aeroplane but a lousy bomber.
Prangster
Just trying to see if you had my late husbands father as your stepfather. All details appear to match what I have been told. RAF records go dead at 13ITW