Norwegian Pilots Not Happy

[The Grim Reaper]

With a deadline to sign new contracts rapidly approaching (19th December), my friends at NAS tell me that the pilots are not happy and,to date, no-one has signed.

Why do some companies put so little importance on their labour relations?

[The Grim Reaper]

This bit of satire sums up some of the concerns:

Flight NAX666 :uhoh: (https://www.scribd.com/doc/250425720/Fremtiden-Hyhet-Norwegian-Flight-666)

[barbour]

In the long run, hiding behind your NAS 'friend' Cloak Adam will not save you and on a public forum. :=

[The Grim Reaper]

Save me from what? Is that a threat?

Oh, wrong name btw, guess again! :{

[Count of Monte Bisto]

Barbour, who are you? First of all, The a Grim Reaper has said nothing offensive and there are no grounds for complaint at his statement of the facts. You sound like a manipulative and controlling management loser at NAS who seeks to threaten and manipulate your own staff to bully them into signing some dire contract. Your Company is a dreadful example of how to treat its staff, and the purpose of this forum is to identify these and worst potential employers in the market. Where do you think your company fits on that scale? Answers on a postcard to .......

[wind check]

Why do some companies put so little importance on their labour relations?

Why? That's pretty simple, they have lots and lots of frozen atpl kids behind the door waiting for an interview call, willing to realise their dreaaaam.

[Three Lions]

In a minor way the frozen ATPL kids do add to the overall problem, as do the "experienced guys who didnt make a stand" and the unions "who have no teeth and are just self serving until they can get management roles" etc etc as is reported on various thresd on here.

However all these seperate effects are a drop in the ocean. The major reason is that Employment law has been changed by the governments to allow the current set up. Money now absolutely rules any decision making. And people now sit very low on any company importance scale.

Its worse than that.. like a long term cancer case, the situation will only ever get worse. A nibble here a scam there. Not so much a race to the bottom. More a gentle glide to the bottom.

One across the board union and a shift of government to any parties that genuinely have people at the core of what they do is the only hope

Surely NAS arent as bad as the previous crop of locos?

[chrian_dk]

i do realise that 90 percent of people actually writing anything on pprune it's gonna be all negative, and there is absolutely room for improvement in nas, that being said almost everyone i fly with, including three of the guys who got FIRED (if that's what you call two months unwilling vacation) are really pretty happy, i just wanna make sure that those of you that draw parralels between nas and ryan, have either forgotten what you came from, or dunno wtf you're talking about....

[MichaelPL]

Chrian, I guess abbreviating 'termination of contract' (whatever is the reason behind it) to 'fired' lies a bit closer to the truth than 'unwilling vacation'.

I personally know a couple of pilots working in Norwegian, and they're great people, and most of the workforce seems so as well. But the workplace is getting worse.

Myself being a 'frozen atpl kid' (heck, wish I could still call myself 'kid') will not even bother sending an application for the 3 month gig. It is shooting oneself in the foot plain and simple, ethical dilemmas aside.

I will save up a bit more dough and apply to Ryanair. And I do know what I am talking about. The TR cost is similar, but at least at FR you get an ongoing contract, instead of 3 months. If you can contradict that, please do, as I would not have believed it'd be like that if someone had told me 2 years ago.

[The Grim Reaper]

From what I've heard, it's not that things are necessarily dire at NAS, it's that they could be better and the current contract shambles combined with winter lay-offs (which the pilots themselves stepped in to alleviate by voluntarily taking reduced rosters or unpaid time off) is pushing things in the wrong direction.

I think that pilots around the world have sensed (correctly or not) that now is a good time to try and improve the standard of management that they are experiencing on a daily basis and try and prevent the entire industry sliding in the direction of the small island west of the UK...

It would appear that there is some discontent at Emirates (http://www.emirates-illuminati.org) too...

[RAT 5]

What is the difference between being laid-off for 3-4 months and not being given any work as a 'self-employed' contractor for 3-4 months; or being given 1 days flying out of 5 and spending 4 days on unpaid SBY on the other side of Europe to your company's office = home? If cabin crew can be dumped for 3 months and forbidden to fly elsewhere, it won't take long for the pilots to be next in line. Zero hour contracts are great for any company, but lousy for workers; and even worse if you are on duty for no pay. How did anyone ever let that happen? There's bad and worse; it doesn't mean the bad is good, relative.

[wind check]

This job is getting drastically worse and worse year after year.

Most of those new generation kids will do this job from 20 years of age to maximum 40-45 years of age and will eventually switch to another professional activity afterwards.

[Greenlights]

Why do some companies put so little importance on their labour relations?

Simple : because most of the pilots put so little importance on their job.

Good luck in this industry.

and there is absolutely room for improvement in nas

and you think its gonna be better ? really ?

[RAT 5]

Why do some companies put so little importance on their labour relations?

Time to reflect on how the job & life style has changed over the past 50 years. In most of W.Europe the most flying jobs were with national government-owned national unionised flag carriers. They were the standard bearers, worldwide ambassadors and advertisers for their countries. Great pride was taken in them, by them and by their employees. It was a coveted position and very well paid. Only the well-healed experienced it.
Later came the charter/holiday carriers; the 2nd tier. The likes of Britannia, Monarch: and similar in other countries, and the 2nd tier of privately owned scheduled carriers e.g. B.Cal & BMI, and many others in the continental countries. Some survived and many others fell by the way-side or were swallowed. In all aspects it was still a respected profession, and well remunerated with the nationals at the top of the tree. There were standards in service and T's & C's which were well understood by all.
Then came privatisation and the governments sold their investments to public shareholders. Now profit was the only parameter. Lo & behold it was discovered that this was a vocational industry; people would kill their grandmothers for a step on the ladder, and pay to do it. The profiteers couldn't believe their luck and the cancer started. Also, the market was deregulated and anyone could start up an airline flying from anywhere in EU to anywhere in EU. Cut price was the answer. The supermarkets had done it and some had won; McDonalds had done it etc. etc. LoCo's were born and the pax lapped it up. The expansion of EU into poorer countries helped very much, with traffic going both ways. Holiday models changed, from 2 weeks x 2 if you were lucky, into more short breaks and spontaneous trips. Perfect for LoCo's. The majors suffered and had to respond. They saw that crews would accept lower T's & C's in the 2nd tier companies and so they embarked on following suit. Unions tried to stem the slide, with some modicum of success, but the journey is not yet anywhere near over.
Predicting the future is always difficult, but anticipating where this profession will be in 20 years time needs more than a crystal ball. One thing is certain, the share-holders will call the shots. The pax might not like it, but they will vote with either their feet or their wallets. Personnel in all departments will suffer, but it will be the 'vocational' ones who will suffer most.
Given the world economic climate there will always be more people seeking employment than vacancies available. Thus employers can cherry pick at will. The queue will always be longer than empty places. Job seekers will be on eternal SBY waiting for the call.
The market has decided and T's & C's fell. The market may also decide if there is a shortage of crews & engineers. This has been talked about ever since I joined, (and have since finished). It hasn't happened yet. Some are still crying "wolf" and we await the first bite.

[MasterYodaEK]

I confirm the same people unhappy with EK, not about the contract itself, about what they dare calling a "Management"...
Heard it is about to get some change, let's see!

[betternexttime]

Dismay in core too. December wages decreased by 20000 NOK for pilots because a "calculation error" with assurances that they "accidentally" discovered the day before last salary this year. Merry ******* christimas.

[RAT 5]

Management across the board hasn't really started with captain Ts&Cs yet...

Help me out with this one, then.

There is a basic labour law in EU that when 2 people are on same contract doing same job one can not be treated 'less favourably' than the other.

In some airlines i have been told that new upgraded captains are paid 10% less in their first year than other captains. Their contracts are the same; there is no seniority pay scale; there is no probation period; there are no extra tests at the end of one year. i.e. in their 1st year as a captain they are treated less favourably than their colleagues. How did that happen? Am I mis-informed? And please don't tell me this happens as well as having to pay for all expenses while jumping through the command course hoops.

If true, the captains' T's & C's are under attack already. Wait until the majors try to dilute seniority scales. The manure will hit the air-conditioning in a very smelly manner. But they will try.

[captplaystation]

betternexttime,

believe me, no-one on the Contract side will take any joy in seeing you being shafted for their cock-up, as you say, "Merry ------- Xmas" from Father (Bjorn) Xmas & his team. . . doubt if the hangar party was much compensation, instead of :mad: all the cash on that, better they took care of this mess they didn't anticipate.

[chrian_dk]

let's get one thing straight, i do not agree with management putting out a letter that said termination of contract, maybe they should have started with sorry guys, but we need a little fewer pilots this winter and therefore, you will not be working a few months, but wtf stop making a big deal of it. i'm still laughing at the idiot that said "even in ryanair i do not get laid off" first of all, everyone will be working in april THE LATEST, and secondly ryan just has 5 guys flying 100 hours instead of one guy, explay the effen difference to me.... what company in their right mind is gonna keep 60 guys on basic pay, you all signed a contract that said you could be terminated in 60 days, and now you don't like the smell in the bakery, seriously, get REAL.....

[JaxofMarlow]

What company would hire 60 pilots they didn't need ?

Some seriously rude, offensive and illiterate comments in defence of NAS here. I wonder why. Does this reflect the internal management culture. I wonder if I will get threatened now for saying so !

[captplaystation]

No, it reflects one individuals refusal to accept that his decision to leave Ryanair, which was indeed correct at the time, hasn't really been justified in the results thus far. Some peoples way of dealing with this is to try & make themselves feel better about it by ignoring the fact that Red has recently become not so different from Blue/Yellow, then you have the others. . . who will tell you the truth, warts & all. . . . what you wanna know :}

[DelPueblo]

I think that the reason so many pilots have left RYR to go to Norwegian is because it is a nicer environment to work in and has been doing a better job of treating employees with respect and decency.

All the more reason to fight and makes sure it stays that way!

[galwaypilot]

Cutting 60 pilot' contracts is very decent and respectful! No doubt they got a Christmas card too...

[Superpilot]

Let me get this clear. You are complaining because an employer terminated a contract in line with the contract terms and conditions?

If this is really the case, then welcome to the real world. This is how the contract market works. Permenant employment is offered when an employer is willing to hedge its bets that they will need you for years and years to come. NAS is just doing what FR and EZ have done in the past.

[lear999wa]

Super pilot not to belabour the point, but I don't think fr would have done or has done this in the past. Fr is smarter then that. Nope unfortunately, and I feel my colleagues would agree but Nas is hugely mismanaged. And is in no way any better to work for then fr. But don't take my word for.

[FRogge]

In FR you have every year during winter 1 month of forced unpaid leave + salary cut to half with the same amount of working days for the winter months that you are working. you guys who are interested in coming back to FR from DY, could you explain what is better in FR compared to DY besides the roster?? Because FR is by far the worst "employer" I've ever had.

[november.sierra]

The people that went back to Ryanair seem to all have gone back for the same reasons:

a) the quick command upgrade promised at the interview at Norwegian has now been moved into the dim and distant future and instead of a 6 month wait, people are now looking at 1-2 years according to current plans.

b) the people that left Ryanair to get away from the dodgy contracting employment practices of setting up Irish Ltd companies, have now signed permanent contracts of employment directly with Ryanair on their return. This will mean no further unpaid leave, basic salary, sick pay, pension, etc etc etc.

c) returnees have been given their first choice of base mainly and been promised a fast track to command within 6 months. This, unlike Norwegian, is actually set in stone instead of an empty promise.

[FRogge]

Yes quick CU, but look at the contracts... and since no seniority system that is the highest you will get on the pay scale, unless you leave again. I think it is unfair to have guys loyal to the company stuck in bases they never asked for and at the same time take rejoiners pass the imaginary que for popular bases

[semmern]

c) returnees have been given their first choice of base mainly and been promised a fast track to command within 6 months. This, unlike Norwegian, is actually set in stone instead of an empty promise.

So..nobody is at all worried that people are promised definite command upgrades after a set time period, but not based on ability? What a wonderful low-cost world we live in.


In other news, the Norwegian CAA has issued a questionnaire to employees of all commercial operators flying in Norway, with questions about the work environment, adherence to rules and regulations, reporting practices, etc. Norwegian and Ryanair have both refused to allow their employees to take part in this questionnaire. Wonder why...

[go around flaps15]

Absolute bull. Unless you pass the sims and line checks to a good standard you won't even get recommended for upgrade let alone on a course regardless of what you are told before joining.

Let's not talk nonsense and stick to the facts.

[captplaystation]

semmern,


"In other news, the Norwegian CAA has issued a questionnaire to employees of all commercial operators flying in Norway, with questions about the work environment, adherence to rules and regulations, reporting practices, etc. Norwegian and Ryanair have both refused to allow their employees to take part in this questionnaire. Wonder why... "


Do you have a link to this . . . . . .

[Greenlights]

good luck guys in this industry...hope you'll get a better futur, and Merry Christmas to all ! ;)

[Spirit]

Skal kartlegge arbeidsforholdene i lufta - NRK Østfold (http://www.nrk.no/ostfold/skal-kartlegge-arbeidsforholdene-i-lufta-1.12082154)

[semmern]

Yep, there's the link. Thanks.

[LNIDA]

Ryanair selection and training is by and large excellent, few would dispute that and a good number of ex Ryanair guys who in their words were coming up for command in FR have joined Norwegian in the hope of fast command, the problem is that when your aged 24 waiting for anything seems like an age, WHAT 6months!!!!! your taking the p**s, well having flown with many of these wonder pilots i can confirm that they are indeed very well trained and will make excellent Captains, but some need a few more years maturity on their shoulders and a dose of humility to go with it.

Command selection in NAS is a combination of peer review, interview, sim and selection, no system is perfect, but if you join thinking your the bogs dollocks and don't show a little respect, then you might not be shuffled 90cm to the LHS as quick as you think you should be. So its in your hands, your still a command training risk and DEC will still have the upper hand and yep we get a few odd balls there as well.

[JaxofMarlow]

LNIDA. Well said. Maturity and humility sadly absent in some.

[lear999wa]

LNIDA, maturity, seriously!! Spoken like a true former Bmi baby pilot.
We don't have have a problem with immature pilots. Our problem as a company lies more with a certain inability to do basic planning. As well as MGMT telling half truths during interviews. (6 months wait to upgrade, 2 years wait for a permanent Norwegian contract). And no, the OSM contract doesn't count.

[Callsign Kilo]

People coming back to FR for 'guaranteed commands.' What, the command opportunity that they turned their nose up at as if it were a **** filled nappy before going to DY. Sure the likes of Brindisi or Gdansk may not be everyone's idea of fun however the thought of people crawling back to achieve four stripes, a permanent contact and a Stansted base makes my skin crawl. Obviously FR are happy to deal with you however your former soon to be reinstated colleagues should treat you like lepers. Unreal.

[LNIDA]

Yes seriously

Do you think you were lied to? i.e. someone set out to tell you one thing when they knew for certain another? plans change it the nature of the game, perhaps you heard what you wanted to hear?

No one joining Norwegian in the last 3 years should have had any illusion that they would join K group pilots.

[captplaystation]

LNIDA,

I have spoken personally with quite a few guys who were told that they would have a "Core" (not permanent employment with a Norwegian subsidiary, but "Core" ) contract after 2 years.

A cursory read of the threads on here this last couple of years should have alerted them to the unlikelihood of this occurring, but , nonetheless, I have been assured that is what they were told at interview.

I don't know if I can lay all of the blame for this on the narcisstic appointee now handling recruitment, or whether it was during BH's swansong, I would suspect the former. I know similarly of many who were assured that their Command would be "just around the corner" if they joined. Again a bit of research & due diligence should have raised their eyebrows, particularly if they looked at the number of qualified / capable Core FO's who have yet to commence a Command Course.

So, they may, as you suggest, be guilty of believing what they wanted to believe, but, the transmitter of this info may also be guilty of (what Maggie Thatcher called it ) being "economical with the truth".

Anyway, they have all seen the real "Norwegian Way" now :{

Happy New Year, and here's hoping we can take a couple of steps back to what it was we thought we were joining :hmm:

[lear999wa]

According to the Oxford dictionary a lie is the following:
(a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.)

When Bjørn stated during the LGW base meeting, and I paraphrase" nobody needs to worry about their job, all of your jobs are safe"
That is in my opinion a falsehood. Considering notices of contractual termination were sent out to 60 pilots two weeks later.
Yes; it is but my opinion, however I think they fit the above definition.

[LNIDA]

Yep I concede 99.9999% of people hearing BK's comment would indeed take that view, I was flying so didn't hear it myself, but i don't believe there were any qualifications added, of course all are needed (but not during the winter) no matter, no one had any idea in joining NAS that they were in any risk of a winter layoff, so yes completely unacceptable.

The upgrade one puzzles me more, not withstanding my earlier comments i don't know of anyone who has changed seats in less than 12-16 months, so i can't understand why anyone would suggest that it was 6 months???

OSM seem to running round like headless chickens and i suspect the next few months will be er interesting, thankfully the company seems to be on a catch up year and it needs it more than it knows

[Kirks gusset]

787 Pilots not happy either, Given the continuing debate and associated costs, the year of consolidation may well turn out to be a lot tougher than expected:

Open Skies | Transportation Trades Department (http://www.ttd.org/tag/open-skies/)

It looks unlikely this issue will be solved within the next 6 months and this must be placing a huge strain on the finances..maybe they should be more transparent about the " big picture"

[Widebdy]

Callsign Kilo "however the thought of people crawling back to achieve four stripes, a permanent contact and a Stansted base makes my skin crawl. Obviously FR are happy to deal with you however your former soon to be reinstated colleagues should treat you like lepers."

@Callsign Kilo. I have seen similar comments on this forum suggesting a frosty reception for RYR DEC who "jump the queue" and get a UK base or similar. Explain these suggestions? Because I never witnessed any Ryanair Pilot take a stand against any colleague, not even the ones the backstabbing ones they debatably should have taken a stand against!

Seniority and loyalty counts for nothing at Ryanair. There are no transparent systems in Ryanair. Ex-Ryanair pilots returning are not screwing anyone. Supply and demand rule the roost not labour agreements or seniority. Your suggestion that certain groups of pilots in Ryanair would be treated negatively, "like lepers", by fellow colleagues is absolutely laughable.

If you have a problem with the systems and contracts in ryanair and how they are allocated grow a pair of balls and challenge Ryanair managers, not your fellow colleagues.

I suggest winding your neck in because in my experience, it is far more likely that the reinstated Ex-Norwegian Pilots will have to deal with Ryanair Pilots hassling them for information about life beyond Ryanair. I know that is what many of us ex-FR pilots spent our time doing whenever we had the opportunity to fly with Pilots who had previously flown for the likes of Emirates.

Good luck to any Pilot returning from NAS to FR, I hope the transfer pays off. It is worth pointing out that some of those looking to return have personal reasons beyond command upgrade e.g commuting has not worked out as expected. The vast majority are happy to remain at Norwegian and try to engage with the company.

[cucuotto]

When you are 24 you should not be allowed to put in charge of the lives of hundreds of passengers..period. Minimum age for upgrade 40 and 15 years experience in commercial aviation.

[de facto]

That must have been the funniest post ive read in years,thanks!!:D

[ryanmaverick]

you are italian for sure...(im)!!

[fast & fat]

Recent information regarding basing policies in Norwegian.

pilots that are low on seniority may experience a temporary base transfer twice a year to cover the need at other bases during the high season. Most of these transfers are done on a voluntary basis, with individuals being based on results of the previous base bidding (December 2014). Unfortunately, there are also some forced base transfers amongst the pilots with the lowest seniority for us to safeguard the production increase for the upcoming summer season.
100-150 of the pilots with the lowest seniority will at all times be exposed to involuntary base changes to accommodate the seasonal production changes.

[captplaystation]

To which you can add


The winter season 2015 will open up for the possibility of extended Leave of Absence (working outside the Norwegian group), reduced working patterns (50-80%) or leave for most bases at the EURO/SCAN area. If you already have a wish for a break in the autumn of 2015, please send an Email as soon as possible.


For anyone who doesn't remember, a similar request last Summer did not yield enough "volunteers", which resulted in between 1 & 4 mths forced unpaid leave for the most recent entrants. There was no solution to this until the pilots got together & ameliorated it by volunteering to help out their colleagues by taking reduced roster. This resulted in most receiving shorter forced breaks, or at least 25% or 50% employment for part of it.

It appears NAS is becoming a seasonal employer, in regards to Base Stability / 100% employment, this suits some people, if it doesn't . . . beware, leaving FR will not mean you are leaving behind being dicked around for basings, nor having to take unpaid leave over the Winter (at least for the first couple of years you are here )

[semmern]

Why do people put up with that crap? Is flying a 737 really worth everything, including job security and a life outside work?

[Superpilot]

Unfortunately, once you end up with 73 rating (and walk away from FR), life is pretty much decided for you. Head East or put up with it.

[go around flaps15]

It's swings and roundabouts really. If you get a UK or Irish base, permanent contract, left seat, 5/4, home every night, FR works for a lot of folk. My work/life balance was good for four years while I was there.

The question is can you slog it out doing 4 sector days and 900 hours year in year out.

[LS-4]

Why do people put up with that crap? Is flying a 737 really worth everything, including job security and a life outside work?Maybe for some, while others hope their experience from NAS will be valued by other companies. Which in turn are being more or less challenged by NAS, contributing to the 'gentle glide to the bottom,' as someone put it.

Many good guys and gals at NAS. This issue might have a few sides to it. I think many people are at the hands of systemic factors which can only be dealt with through responsible, informed and coordinated governance. Not holding my breath, though.

B737, hours on cruise, MCP, CDU and coffee? No? I recently flew with someone who actually makes a living flying gliders. Hello daydream! :}

[captplaystation]

The company, having made demands equivalent to tearing up the current labour agreement, and offering conditions in some respects worse than those "enjoyed" by hired (contract ) pilots, it is not surprising that negotiations with the Scandinavian based pilots are progressing in the cordial manner so beloved of NAS.


"As a result of the breakdown in the CLA negotiations for the Scandinavian pilots, a collective resignation was sent today, February 9, 2015 by Parat (the parent organisation where NPU is a member). This is a serious step in which NPU commits to go on strike should a solution not be obtained in the conflict.
The company and NPU now enters forced mediation with the state mediator. The parts will be called within two days and the mediation will then go on for a maximum of 14 days. If no agreement has been made by Feb 25th, NPU has the possibility to engage all current NAN pilots that are NPU members (per Feb 9th) in a strike."

[captplaystation]

A notice by the company on Rednose (the company internal website) defending the companies decision to decimate the current CLA in Scandinavia has so far had 352 ( and counting ) responses in 3 days . . . . . (universally stating 100% with you NPU :ok: ) Given that most employees are not so "keen" (for various reasons ) to post on Rednose one could categorise the companies decision to be so confident in their "smoke & mirrors" as badly founded/misjudged/ too big for their own boots . . . heartening to see that some amongst us still have a pair. :D

Let us see what happens twixt now & the 25th.

[Iver]

I know it is a separate operation, but can anyone clarify the basing situation at Norwegian Longhaul? Still only based at Bangkok? Or can you now bid one of the Scandi capitals and LGW? Also, how many days off minimum per month?

PMs also welcome.

Cheers

[captplaystation]

NAI tried to rebase everyone in LGW , with no increase in salary/conditions, this would have resulted in many who are "paying tax" in BKK finding themselves with a somewhat larger tax burden. There was predictably a revolt, so base is still BKK. From what I have heard, you can to all intents & purposes base yourself in Stockholm ( & I guess Oslo) as the schedule makes this a possibility. I believe the contracted days off are 8 a month, you get more, but apparently are constantly pestered with offers to work on OFF days as they are constantly short. I heard too, that already quite a few guys have banged out, to give themselves a 100% pay-rise flying same type whilst "really" based in the Far East.


On a separate note, the time for mediation if a strike by the Scandi based pilots is to be avoided is now less than 3 days, & NAS shows no sign of ameliorating their firm stance on completely decimating the T's & C's of K Area pilots.

A scurrilous rumour, which I have heard 2nd hand, involves a senior flight-ops figure stating during a line-check that the intention is to bankrupt NAN (the AOC holder for the Scandi part of the operation ) & relaunch with a new cheapskate operation no doubt offering the same rubbish contract they wish the current guys to downgrade to. The current impasse leads me to believe that this management wet dream may have a lot more than a touch of credibility.

[MonarchOrBust]

Regardless if the above is true or not, it's becoming more clearer by the day that this operation is run by people who simply want overworked/underpaid slaves to oil their machine. I used to have a positive view of anyone wishing to challenge RYR/EZY but this bunch has introduced/wants to introduce more immoral and disgusting employment practices than the previous two LCC have done in the last 2 decades of their operation. The entire operation has become toilet from what I've heard by speaking to friends.

The airline name/branding is causing image/recognition problems. The choice of livery is a joke for an airline that has bigger plans.

[lear999wa]

@ captainplaystation I have heard the exact same rumour.

[tubby linton]

Norwegian faces first ever pilot strike - The Local (http://www.thelocal.no/20150224/norwegian-faces-pilot-strike)

http://www.thelocal.no/20150212/norwegian-posts-first-loss-in-seven-years


http://www.thelocal.no/20141215/norwegian-chief-bjorn-kjos-shares-sale

[LNIDA]

Lost me there on the second paragraph? I work for the airline and all i see from my base at least is full flights more or less day in day out and a high satisfaction amongst the paying guests.........

I can see if you work for Monarch that you would be brassed of with Monarch after the butchers job inflicted on your T&C's and no doubt your management blame the rise of Norwegian and others on your savage cuts.......

Livery ? really........most of the public don't give a stuff so long as its good value and turns up on time, not a Monarch strength i know.

The k area guys have a battle on there hands for sure, but despite the cluster**k of this winter very few have jumped back toward the harp at least thus far

[Aluminium shuffler]

Some countries' Authorities operate a reporting system which is public domain, so it might not be a confidential company report.

[AngioJet]

Mods please pull this! Or at least remove the names!

[Birdstrike737]

Sorry it's not accessible right now if you don't have a subscription to AW&ST, but it should be open to non-subscribers in a week or two:

Poor Work Conditions For Many European LCC Crews | Commercial Aviation content from Aviation Week (http://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/poor-work-conditions-many-european-lcc-crews)

[tubby linton]

The report was posted as a comment to an article on the american website The Hill over a month ago. Whilst it is regrettable that it contains some names of those involved I would argue that it is now truely in the public domain and no attempt has been made to remove it .
It has also appeared on this site before in various places,due to a lot of shunting around the sub fora by persons unknown.
It is currently lurking here:
http://www.pprune.org/safety-crm-qa-emergency-response-planning/556820-cabin-crew-ditches-captain-2.html#post8878559

[lear999wa]

Dear Norwegian pilots,

as we write this letter NPU (the pilot union representing our colleagues in Scandinavia) and the management of our airline are trying to negotiate a solution to the various issues on the discussion table.
We will not go into the details of the actual negotiations now but we would only like to highlight the fact that the positions of the two parties are very far apart.

Generally speaking our company wants to lower the terms & conditions of the NAN pilots (those permanently employed in Scandinavia) by making direct comparison with the terms & conditions of those pilots employed elsewhere by ARPI,PARC, OSM and NAR Spain on much lower conditions de-facto trying to create a new benchmark.

To add some extra drama to the situation our company is threatening the bankruptcy of NAN and therefore the layoffs of the NAN pilots in an attempt to put pressure on NPU to accept the lower conditions proposed by our management.
It is also now very obvious how the management is using these different setups (NAN,OSM,NAR Spain,NAR Finland, the agencies etc.) to put us one pilot group against the other as if we were working for completely different airlines.

This is a scenario many have witnessed in the recent past in other companies like Ryanair and its detrimental effects on our jobs are now well known to most, such developments are obviously an un-acceptable solution for our common long term plans in a company that wants to become not only a European powerhouse but also a global player.

Based on the situation described above NPU has opened up for a pilot strike of its members starting Saturday 28th of February at 00:01 hours.
In this context we would like to suggest all Norwegian pilots , regardless of base and contract type, NOT to sell their OFF days as a sign of solidarity towards our Scandinavian colleagues and in order not to undermine the outcome of their efforts.

Last but not least we are receiving information from pilots that they are being subject to roster changes as we write this letter, these changes seem to be done in order to position Euro based pilots to Scandinavia with the purpose of having them available to cover flights otherwise affected by the NPU strike, be it a standby or planned flight duty.
This type of behavior by the company might potentially be in breach of current legislation in respect of strike rules, we therefore urge all pilots affected by roster changes in the upcoming days to send their original roster as well as the roster change to the following email address: [email protected]
All info sent will be treated with the strictest confidentiality.

Best Regards,

Norwegian SEPLA

[captplaystation]

Company confidentiality rules prevent me reposting the article that appeared today on the company website telling us that we "needed a Reality Check".

I am happy that many well informed colleagues have pointed out the fact that a fleet of 90 737's, flying full on most sectors, with fares that, whilst competitive , certainly are not Ryanair level, do not suddenly overnight turn a profit into a loss, with no discernable change in terms & conditions for the employees involved that can be blamed.

The alternative theory (backed up by listings of "transactions" between NAS group companies) that the long-haul offshoot NAI is bleeding us dry, is probably too close to a "Reality Check" for those suggesting the employees need one.

[Avenger]

Pride before a fall? if, as suggested Long Haul is bleeding the main operation why doesn't the Company simply shut down the LH operation, place the aircraft out on lease and redeploy the crews back on the 737? The debacle in the US is far from settled as is the cohesion with NAS itself.. To purge the conditions of the crews in order to prop up management ego is totally without justification. As for roster cover to break strikes, didn't Shamrock try this in 2009 when separate conditions were imposed on Dublin crews and UK based crews? history doesn't repeat itself, now NAS crews stand a chance of being "part of history.". good luck.. and for Christ's sake change that colour scheme from pen*s helmet red nose and santa claus on the tail!

[LS-4]

Best of luck, pilots!

[captplaystation]

Norwegian pilots: ?Enough?s enough? (http://www.newsinenglish.no/2015/02/26/norwegian-pilots-enoughs-enough/)

[Aluminium shuffler]

Good luck, guys. This is a very serious situation, and will have heavy ramification whichever way it goes. If the company win, all the locos will be given a green light to play silly buggers. If the pilots win, not only will NAS have to up its game, but it'll be a warning shot across the bow of many other companies.

I hope the NAS pilots hold their nerve, and I hope none of the contractors are scared into cooperating with the company and undermining their colleagues. If only the same could happen in RYR, but they have problems with the multinational set up and getting any union representation to make any strike legal.

[deptrai]

Norwegian pilots union (NPU) is threatening to go on strike...and meanwhile, BK is appparently flying in pilots from other bases. Brave new world. Who are they? desperate P2F idiots?

[captplaystation]

Wetleases confirmed for tomorrow, so, seems 2 days of "mediation" with the state mediator is just window dressing to make the obvious intention to bankrupt NAN (the bit of NAS covering Scandinavian production, separated from NAS which they were inexplicably allowed to do even in a "Unionised" company :hmm: ) & then re-open as a new entity with inferior terms, seem like it was somehow the pilots fault.

I always thought that corruption & "dirty dealings" were the preserve of Southern European /Mediterranean countries. . . . the last 3 years have opened my eyes as to where the "Africa of Europe" may really be located.

[8ah]

so Gloom Cat.... 600+ unionized core. At midnight the white tent leaves the table and the black is put forward. The huge problem for the BK is that there is no more honourable retreat. We know that. I think the board know that. So let's see what plays out. Osm will defiantly come at the table but not a single core will sign with a former convict. I personally could use a couple of weeks rest and mast....... My stamp collection needs dusting...

[AUTO/MAN]

"Africa of Europe" is pretty much located where you settlers decide to pay rent by buying jobs.

The 600+ "core" pilots paid for their way from ten(ish) years ago up until today with pretty much every joiner buying a rating.

-"adapt to the market" they told us.
-"wait for the market" we told them.

Now they cry foul and rely on the rest of the community to bail them out with support.

Unfortunately we have no choice. Especially given the previous result from the courageous rednoses in conflict.

[SlowAndSilly]

And they're on... Godspeed, Norwegian pilots!

(in norwegian)
Det blir streik i Norwegian - NRK ? Norge (http://www.nrk.no/norge/det-blir-streik-i-norwegian-1.12234161)

[captplaystation]

If it can't be saved, it is not worth saving, you have the support of your EURO colleagues, I trust everyone amongst us to DO OUR BEST ! ! :} :ok:

[semmern]

Finally! Good luck everybody.

[kungfu panda]

We all support you Norwegian Pilots.

Please all: do everything you can to avoid being part of anything that assists the bean counters in breaking this strike.

All Pilot actions are for the benefit of all of us. Management greed and legal manipulation has been very destructive to our chosen careers for the past 20 years.

[empati]

To all pilots in Norwegian (outside NAS). Be very carefull not to participate in strike braking as you would be black listed in IFALPA and future work would be limited. Bjorn Kjos will use means to break the unions.

[captplaystation]

berserker,

surprised there, normally the Danes are the first ones to down tools & set up picket lines (look at FR's "experience" ) quite untypical.

[Brenoch]

Added to say that you've got my full support. Enough is enough!

[Tally-ho1]

Full support to the Norwegian pilots ( NAN ) this days!
It's a shame that Danish Air Transport take the opportunity to fly on DY routes now!

[Hotel Charlie]

Good luck NPU!
Actually the entire pilot community in EU should set the Park Brake to ON!
EASA and the EU politicians need to be told 'nuff's Enough now!!
Just Say No!!

[empati]

So Norwegian consist of a mother company with pilots hired in daughter company below. Now one of these daughter companies are on strike. Norwegian is now transfering pilots from one daugther to another. The union is claiming this is strikebraking. Norwegian/ Bjørn Kjos says it's not. What do you think? If it is, why?:suspect:

[Jetavia]

It is because in doing so you bypass the normal "rules". Effectively you put your employees out of the game when it comes to negotiations.

This will become really really ugly.. Simply put Mr. Bjørn Kjos big dream is to be able to compete or beat the lowest production cost out there, meaning for shorthaul it is not enough to beat Easyjet on costs, no he want to beat Ryanair .. It is like an obsession.. Base meeting, after base meeting, up comes the spreadsheet comparison to other carriers.. and one name comes up.. Ryanair, Ryanair, Ryanair.

In his quest to drive costs downward Norwegian has been reorganised, so the company you purchase your ticket with is a "virtual airline" with owned production companies underneath. The Kjos logic now is that if one "unit" is on strike, he can just ask another unit to fly his aircraft.. For negotiations production units can be put up against each other to drive down T & C's.

In short the non-scandinavian based crew will be used to break down T & C's of the original flight crew that helped build this airline.

The only solution is for all flightcrew to stand united. This is probably also the only chance of a turn-around of the contractor policies introduced the last couple of years.

None of the scandi pilots want Norwegian to become a new Ryanair! I am not sure Kjos is aware how pissed off people are.. He probably will never show up again at base meetings, in Scandinavia ;-)

[somethingclever]

It's pretty simple really. If the union loses this conflict then it's game over for Scandinavian pilot careers. Go to china, save all the earnings for 5 years and invest in stocks. Go home and do something else while you live off of dividends. Anyone even contemplating starting a flying career in Scandinavia would have to be insane if this dam breaks. You will be hired by the hour by a third party, with zero social benefits, no pension, paying your own expenses, flying a gruelling roster that forces you to forfeit any sort of normal life and relationship. You will in essence live to work. I say you deserve better. We all do.

Scandinavian Airlines are doing much the same and the cabin is on strike as a result. Buy another airline and transfer the employees to it with a brand new shiny set of conditions. If this is legal, then collective agreements are all null and void. Worth less than the stationary holding the ink. Why even pretend in that case?

Collective agreements are becoming a thing of the past. Actual employment is becoming a thing of the past. And in all lines of work too I might add. Companies don't hire anyone anymore, they do it via agencies to minimise their responsibilities. Nobody wants to worry about sick leave, parental leave, pensions, vacation. You know, all the silly things that mean living instead of existing. 20-year olds serving coffee sit in their parents house on stand-by hoping to get called out to work via SMS. If you reply within five minutes you get to go to work for a day, congratulations. Any later and the offer has moved on. Like factory workers in 1812 muzzling up to the gates hoping the foreman will point at them that day.

And time and time again we are beaten over the head with the same mantra. Cost cost cost. We have to have zero cost for everything. Any expense and we will all go bankrupt and then you will have no job at all. So we bow our heads and think well yes alright, 15% pay cut is manageable. Then next year, guess what. CEO got away with it so now he wants 20% cuts. Or ELSE. And at the end of that year there's a BIG old gala where the CEO and his merry robbers give each other trophies, medals, diplomas and a nice fat bonus as "leaders of the year" for being such good little boys, conning the lowly serfs who work for them out of their rightful compensation. See, it pays to be in a perpetual state of "bankruptcy". It pays them, and you get to pay. Nice gig on the right side of the fence.

When did we accept, as a society, to roll back the times to 1800 to be "competitive"? Who stands to benefit from such a development? Does is behove us as a species to drive towards this? Or has a small unit of money and power conned the rest of us into fearful surrender? Happy to receive whatever scraps fall off the table, oh thank you sir, oh bless you mam. We think we are prisoners to this reality when we are in fact the guards. We have the keys to unlock all doors and leave yet we consistently choose the fabrication that says fear is the only option. And we consistently make the sort of self-serving and short-sighted decisions that gives us 1 and costs us 2. Well thank god for that, they told me I stood to lose 3. What a victory...

Politicians unfortunately do not care. Primarily because they have already elevated themselves to the point that they are disconnected from normal life. They were allowed to set their own terms, salary, pensions and they quickly decided that they are special people. Unique in every way and well deserving of all the toys they could spy. "Why don't they eat cake" is pretty much what you can hope for from the well-fed ignoramuses of elected offices. Legislation is the only thing that will correct the current abominable treatment of employees and that means politics.

Ultimately this will break society and destroy all the things that previous generations fought for. We took those things for granted and spent our time staring at footie and naked celebrities instead. And here we are. Nobody will have a job, we will all be fighting amongst ourselves for any scrap of income and the great men and women in head office and parliament will drink to each others health all the while pretending to give a flying :mad:

[PlanetEarth]

Hear hear.

This race to the bottom has been going on for far too long, but I wonder if it will ever stop.

I'm not an expert on the matter, but the problem such as I see it is not the airlines themselves. There will always be one airline that goes further than the other airlines, within the regulations, or in "grey" areas of regulations within Europe. The other airlines that have unionized pilots, collective agreements, and a normal human benefits package will be the losing party.

The only way I see out of this lunacy, is for the EU to impose stricter regulations as to what airlines can do, how far they can go with contract labor, and how they can shop around Europe for the best place to have every piece of your company.
However, I assume the EU are mostly in the pocket of the airlines in question, and won't budge unless a string of accidents will swing the public opinion to make them change, like in the US.

[Hotel Charlie]

WORD somethingclever and yes PlanetEarth. Only when Joe Public has lost a few friends or relatives in a couple of fatal crashes will the politicians decide/ feel pressured to do something. They already know.......

[Station_Calling]

The only way I see out of this lunacy, is for the EU to impose stricter regulations as to what airlines can do, how far they can go with contract labor, and how they can shop around Europe for the best place to have every piece of your company.

Or sadly, and probably more realistically, we will have a spate of hull losses, and maybe the general public will remember that what we do isn't always just a walk in the the park...

[McBruce]

How many pilots roughly are on strike? On another website it mentions 70, surely there must be a lot more?

Good luck to them, a much needed strike IMO.

[Kirks gusset]

Are the conditions of the core pilots that much superior to the contractors for discussion purpose can anyone actually post a known comparison ? I follow they are trying to erode the core pilots conditions but will this make them equal to or less than their counterparts they seek support from? Also,was it core pilots that objected to contractors being DEC core after 2 years or management? Historically Scandinavia pilots have always enjoyed better terms and conditions than their counterparts, is this a levelling of the playing field or are Management excavating it!

[GearDownThreeGreen]

There are 70 currently on strike. This will expand to all NAN employees on Wednesday, making the number roughly 650.

[Beavis and Butthead]

Good luck colleagues at Norwegian. You have my best wishes and hope you receive the support from your fellow pilots to stand firm and not be undermined. It's a very important battle you simply must win.

The T&C race to the base coming to an airline near you soon ......

[adolf hucker]

something clever,

Best post I have ever read on pprune. You have summed up the situation very well.

[LS-4]

@somethingclever: Great post! Should almost be made a sticky.

People often (almost gleefully) seem to predict this on this site.

It won't happen. People really have to stop shoehorning safety into arguments about terms and conditions.

Hopefully it won't, but many argue that it has already happened on several occasions, especially in other parts of the world.

Safety management is a lot about being analytical, proactive and more or less chronically worried about trends, signals, leads etc. which might connect to a future accident.

Acting in a cocksure manner about this stuff is far from good airmanship in my opinion. DYEF?

I can recommend a look at safety literature from authors like James Reason, Jens Rasmussen, Barry Turner, Karl Weick, Sidney Dekker and others. Good old common sense also comes to mind.

[samca]

I can not believe It...

[ENSA]

Norwegian is now demanding Doctor's Certificates for anyone reporting sick or being unfit to fly.

Talk about self-inflicted damage. Show me the AME who won't sign off on a sick not due to the stress cuased by the current situation. Or any other medical issue which you suspect might set the crew or passengers in danger.

Now show me the AME who signs off on anything less than 3-5 days once you've been in his office. Most likely, he'll sign you off for a week or two just to cover his own ass. While self-declaration might leave you off work for a day or two, this is going to drag it to a week or two. In half of the cases the AME is going to ask you to come back for another appointment just to allow you back for work.

Seriously. This has been pondered by every airline manager since the beginning of time. Any everyone up to now has come to the conclusion that demanding sick notes from crew members is comparable to shooting yourself in the foot with a 12 gauge shotgun.

[captplaystation]

Given the deletion of my post last night,it seems my "opinions" are not welcome, so, we will stick to the facts.


Dear Norwegian Pilots,
in light of the ongoing circumstances, and the fact that we all face uncertainty for our future as professional airline pilots, we find it timely to re-state a few important things.
We do expect NAN to be «claimed» bankrupt shortly and the following scenarios are highly possible;
- NAN pilots may be offered individual OSM contracts (or another agency or a Norwegian subsidiary)
- Norwegian will publish false information telling that «YOU» are the only NAN pilot missing on this new «on-your-own« setup. This will NOT be trustworthy information when it comes from Norwegian, OSM, other agencies involved or media!
- All other pilots currently flying Norwegian Air Shuttle ASA aircrafts will be handed the same «offer» - an individual contract with no basis in any CLA. You will only be offered this individual contract if your colleagues in NO / SE / DK have not accepted it, so why would you? DO NOT fall for the temptation to sign it to get closer to home!
We do find it appropriate to highlight the consequences it will have to accept any of those individual offers or rumors presented to you by the company or their agencies in this situation. If anybody jumps out of the current sit - the strike situation - and sign any individual contracts it will be a moral suicide, and it will be followed up in accordance with international scab practice set down by IFALPA.
In the past it has been common to refer to the various pilot groups as «Core» and «Non-Core» or «Euro pilots». We find it very important that we do not create walls between ourselves by placing us in either the one or the other group; WE ARE ONE GROUP of Norwegian pilots!
To round it off, we need to shout it out again;
- DO NOT sell any days off!
- DO NOT sign any contracts which are NOT founded in a collective agreement and approved by NPG and your local union!
- DO NOT go to work when you are not fit for flight!
- DO NOT accept that your profession is ruined by bad decisions by your leaders!
- DO NOT refrain from reporting all safety issues - including your own performance due to excess stress induced by your employer/agency/real employer!

[737 Jockey]

So we have become Ryanair II, with crew food (for the moment anyway) and without a fixed roster pattern (EU bases). Anyone considering leaving FR to come here, I wouldn't bother, and I'm shocked to hear myself say those words, believe me!

Another nail in the coffin for the professional aviation career. So, So Sad.

100% NPU!


Just my own humble opinion of course! :ok:

[Direct Bondi]

Play Station;

I’m all for union representation and “one for all and all for one” - I’m also for the reality of human nature.

It would have been more akin to unfolding events to have penned, “Welcome to the world of the contractor” to your colleagues and union members up North. Their ‘collective’ days are numbered, they just don’t know it yet – sadly, by the end of the week, they will. Before that though, many will have secured an OSM or other contract for themselves, despite your support, directions to unite and courageous call to arms.

“WE ARE ONE GROUP of Norwegian pilots” – Really, so we can expect ALL the non-union agency pilots to fully support their union colleagues?

Neither you nor any other agency pilots are protected from immediate termination if you refuse a work order to zip over to Scandinavia to replace a striking colleague (isn't there a name for that). Are you going to be the first courageous one to refuse to go?

The demise of the “core” started when you joined Norwegian, at the time Helsinki and Malaga bases were first opened with agency crew. All were given the promise of full time employment directly with Norwegian after, what was it, one or two years, when the base was established and making profit. The union had every opportunity to take action then, but did not. They let Kjos blow wind up all their asses and everyone else’s, including those naive agency pilots who thought permanent employment with Norwegian was guaranteed. Some agency Captains even left to join Norwegian as F/O’s – will they now return as agency Captains or agency F/O’s, how ironic.

The Scandinavian union pilots will be hung out to dry. Not one agency pilot will refuse a flight replacing them. Slowly but surely, most if not all, will sign an OSM or other contract, with no benefits, no union representation and no Norway government labor law protection.

Just to rub salt in the wound, Kjos will use this bankruptcy ploy as a way of “cleansing”all the union pilots he ever wanted to get rid of. Company seniority will not apply.

All for one and one for all - in your dreams. Sorry chums, but these are the cold, hard facts of today's airline world WE have collectively allowed.

[captplaystation]

My apologies for the limitations of "Google Translate", this was posted today by PARAT the umbrella Union of which NPU is a part.

If you "read between the lines" a bit, and substitute the Word "Norwegian" for "English" (why does it do that ? ? ) it is fairly readable.








Parat, via Google Translate
Freedom
Pilot Life at English
02.03.2015Anonym mate
The majority of my friends on Facebook who do not know the conditions of Aviation has no knowledge and ability to understand what we strikes, and therefore can easily come to buy the company's propaganda.
The post below is written by a helmsman in English, and shared on Facebook. Parat know the identity of the mate who has written the post, but who wish to remain anonymous.
Dear Facebook Friends.
This is a long post, sorry for that, but it is a complex issue that can not be explained by three sentences.
As you probably have got with you in the media is Norwegian pilots now on strike. We know that this creates some problems for anyone who plans to travel with us as long as it is ongoing. This is something we very sad. Our employer is also trying to defame us with media initiatives where high wages we have and how spoiled we are. Whatever I had to write to you about my views on the matter will surely be subjectively since I am a party to the conflict. However, I thought to share some objective facts.
I have spent 15 years of my life and overall more than a million dollars on education and maintenance of certificates, Typeratings and sundry. I have moved around the world in 10 years in pursuit of the "big job" with stability and orderly conditions. Meanwhile social and family have been put on hold.
I am 44 years and have not the opportunity to purchase their own housing due to lack of equity. It is used to get where I am today as helmsman on B737 in English. This sounds like whining and I regret? No, not the slightest. Had I failed to do this and developed my skills in the job I had before I started to fly as I had today been a sales manager in a larger company with fringe benefits, good pay and had repaid the house I bought in 1993 and which today is worth over three million. I regret? No, even a bad day in the air is better than the best day I had in office with a burning desire to fly. Just want everyone to know that they do not come into this job without sacrificing much on the road.
What is amazing conditions we have as an employer says makes us too expensive and spoiled? In my case it is as follows:
- An officer position with a salary in a salary rise beginning at 300,000 - and tops out at approximately 690 000, - I am a piece up on the ladder after three years in the "company"
- In addition we have the diet that we are on a business trip and will be covered expenses for having to acquire food outside the home, and as you might know it is not entirely free to eat out in the motherland.
- We can sell a day off and then we double day's wages, in other words the same as other people have about them working overtime by 100%. Is that so unreasonable?
- We have a loss of license insurance that is payable if AME takes away from us our medical certificate so we must stop flying. It is not something we can "take out" nor is anyone interested in it, because we want to fly. If we have to stop flying so we have no competence to enter into another profession other than low-paid unskilled jobs. This insurance is to cover the huge investment we have made to get into the pilot profession and cover, to a certain extent, some of the lost revenue. It is currently at 60G (5.3 million) but stepped down from age 51, so if you lose the certificate as 58-59 year old so most people who do it are, then it greatly reduced to only 15-20% of this. We must pay tax on insurance premiums and pr. date, this means that I have almost 5000, - kr. paid less per month.
- We have a defined benefit pension that will give us 60% of annual salary from we go by that pilot until National Insurance enters at 67 years of age. (At 30 years of qualifying, I'm going to clear max 20 years and thus significantly less). This pension insurance we have because we are legally required to stop in our profession several years before we get a pension from the state, what should a living off then?
- To get the collective agreement with the conditions I have described above, I am available for the company up to 13 hours per. day for 5 days followed by 4 days off. Disposable all day, everyday as holiday, Christmas and Easter, max one weekend per. month free. According EU legislation, we can fly a maximum 900 hours per year, but this is only the time in the air. We can have up to 2000 hours working hours (time from attendance until we go home, possibly in a hotel). Last year I flew 897 hours, but it's just the time in the air. On a day with 6 hours of flight time, I often 8-10 hours working time.
- Sometimes begin my work hours at. 4:30 in the morning and lasts 12 hours. During the 12 hours I have not break and must eat food in the cockpit while I'm flying and sitting and calculating data for the next landing to take place in a short and smooth path, and in the dark in Finnmark with 150 passengers behind me. Other times we start late at night and flying trip - return Mediterranean / or the Canary Islands in 9-13 hours without a break to land again at home into the morning hours.
We are except from the Working Environment Act what it comes breaks and working!
- We live as glamorous, we travel around the lies in hotels? Yes, sometimes having flown / worked in 9-11 hours we arrive into a hotel at. 11:00 p.m. after the restaurant has closed. But that's okay, I have some crackers in my bag. And then we picked at. 5:30 the next day before breakfast is opened, but it is okay for kl. 7:00 when we get in the air so'll buy the company a dry Sandwich on me that I can eat while I'm planning approach to next destination. Glamorous?
Those who have famille with children can never know whether they will participate in birthdays, confirmations, Christmas, football games etc. etc.
For this I had on previous paycheck paid 29 500 kr. Had albeit holiday in parts of January, when I have full diet I end up at around 33 000, - paid because of the high taxes on insurance. Is it unreasonable?
The last eight years have wage settlement in Norwegian adjusted salary up by less than the consumer price index so that real wages have declined. Last year adjustment + 0.7%
The reason that this year we ended strike:
Some history about English.
Norwegian started its low cost operation in Norway with B737 for something over 10 years ago in a tough market and with limited resources. Extremely motivated staff both in Cockpit and cabin and on the ground made it a great success. Eventually went expansion out to Sweden and Denmark and the pilots there was the same collective bargaining agreement as the Norwegian. There was only one employer and one pilot group. The pilots were flexible and worked hard to deliver a good product to the passengers, there were problems due to weather / technical so asked people happy and worked extra. This resulted in trust by the employer and gradually improving the conditions negotiated.
In 2011 opened Norwegian base in Finland but this time, instead of hiring pilots in Norwegian Air Shuttle ASA on applicable collective agreement, then offered the pilots began where a contract with an Estonian employment agency owned by a Norwegian with miserable conditions. No insurance, no pension, no tax, no social security (ie sick pay etc. all we have in Norway due. We pay social security contributions and payroll taxes). This avoided airlines having to pay payroll and having an employer responsibility. Everything that is in Nordic labor laws came they then clear away.
Employment on such a contract is completely absent, Norwegian may terminate the contract with the agency with one month's notice and unions are excluded. Open your mouth and protest anything so you will be prompted to submit the uniform, then it straight out. What effect do you think this has on aviation safety with a view to enroll sick or refraining fly if one is tired?
Further expansion in Europe with new bases in Spain and eventually England was made similarly. But the main production was the still from Scandinavia as our colleagues on contract with bad conditions were flown in to Torp, Gothenburg and Oslo to produce flights to the Mediterranean and sometimes even domestic. I was first employment agency contract even with so-called base Malaga and then I flew including Torp Berlin Torp Evenes-Torp.
By expansion to long routes started the company under company in Ireland that have significantly poorer labor laws. This is because Norway will not grant exemptions from laws that made it impossible to use cabin crew from Thailand on the tacos terms.
The pilots in Scandinavia and our union so the which way the bar, we were to be replaced!
Negotiations for the past 3 years has not acted to improve our conditions, but to retain what we had and get attached principle that we should not be outdone by the pilots in their own company on social dumping contracts. This has meant that it has been on the verge of strikes in the last 3 years but in the last hour and overtime, our leader signed a protocol and agreement in principle that we should retain the existing company structure and production in Scandinavia - a deal that the company has broken at the first opportunity and more or less have not bothered.
Now it is clear in Norwegian working life, that in the time between negotiations are called peacetime, and thus does not have any forms of action available is legal, such as strikes. The company has therefore been able to persist them have willed without our pilot union has been able to do other than to report cases to the Labour Court. Judiciary grinder templates unfortunately slowly and meanwhile the company has come up with new twists. All cases that have been tried so far has given pilot union pursuance of breach of contract, but in the meantime, the company has found something new.
The biggest threat came last year while the union and the company put into negotiations on a new collective agreement for the permanent employees pilots (Norway, Sweden, Denmark.) The company created three staffing companies: Norwegian Air Norway, Norwegian Air Resources AB and Norwegian Air Resources Denmark. The transferred pilots in Norwegian Air Shuttle to these companies and went to Stockholm and Copenhagen and offered pilots where temporary agency contracts. Our collective in Scandinavia was split into three agreements with Agencies.
The only thing that stopped the strike last year was that Kjos signed that we still would get a common collective agreement for these three countries, a deal he has since broken.
In this year's negotiations the company wanted to raze our current agreement with major reductions in wages, pensions and insurances. Our association said they are willing to discuss and let both pensions, salaries and insurance in the pot. In addition, we should move from a fixed rota system to a fully variable a, and lose control of large parts of our holiday. In return demanded the pilots that we should have a collective agreement with the "real employer" which is the parent company Norwegian Air Shuttle ASA and a common seniority list for the group. This was totally unacceptable and the company would not an inch of this. And we understand the why, it would have been a brake on divide and conquer strategy to our beloved leader.
The company has just submitted a large deficit and claim that we in Scandinavia have been too expensive and too inflexible. Fact is that we still flying the same routes profitable domestic and southward as we have done all the time, apart from the routes that have been taken away from us and given to contractual bases in Europe.
The big losses coming by Norwegian commitment to long routes with B787 separate from our production and all the antics of reorganization that has given huge costs.
The company claims they went to mediation with a desire to reach the finish and avoid a strike. Simultaneously signed the contracts with charter companies to fly our production and flew up contractors to Scandinavia from contractual bases for conducting strikebreaking. Then it is probably fair clear it was never its intention and avoid strike ?!
The company claims this is not a strike wrestling because when staffing firm Norwegian Air Norway can not deliver pilot services to them during the strike so it is free for them to use pilots from another staffing agency in Spain or England. In other words they make it that we have feared, and set come in 3 years.
The company has operated for the past 3 years is a gradual positioning of the them do today:
Union Crushing!
So far I have written objective facts and not guesswork. But if I should predict further development with my subjective opinion is the one that follows:
-Plan To Kjos and Co. are now and beat Norwegian Air Norway bankrupt and then we are 650 pilots in Scandinavia unemployed and can not strike or have union because "the company" we are "employed" in no longer exists.
- The moment he turned NAN bankrupt and we all 650 are unemployed so there is suddenly a lousy contract from a new staffing company in the mailbox with the message that the 450 first signs have jobs, while the rest are out. This will be individual agreements without union affiliation so that one is without any assurance that organized labor in Norway provides. They hope then that people without jobs in fear signing.
The way English has behaved in the past 3-4 years, a clear violation of the Scandinavian model in the workplace we have had over the last 100 years.
We are returning to the raw turbo capitalism that existed in the early 1900s before the labor movement got fought through a regulated workplaces.
This is the battle we are fighting against Ryanair.
- Officer in English

[NWCoast]

A Norwegian web-based news agent just quoted this thread claiming that pprune posters made "threats" against contract pilots. Referring to the post about IFALPA, really twisting things now.

[captplaystation]

I am a Contract Pilot, and have not been threatened, on the contrary the Union in Norway has been very specific that we must respect our own Contract & the employment laws of the country we are based/contracted in.

The main request made of us (which is an entirely fair one) has been not to sell days off.

Norwegian Air pilots braced for bankrupcty - The Local (http://www.thelocal.no/20150302/norway-unions-slam-bankruptcy-as-union-busting)

[NWCoast]

I know, just letting you guys know how they take bits & pieces.
Unfortunately this seems to stick with the public, press is twisting everything mentioned on this very thread.:mad::ugh:

[captplaystation]

Yep, just goes to show how much you can believe what you read in the press.

The Norwegian public are neither gullible, nor suffering from short memories.

The "Big Bear" has somehow managed to have a major falling out with his staff annually for some time now, and the public remember that. The last one (involving the Cabin Crew) was very damaging to his reputation, as they tried to bully the CC into backing down by threatening to close all the crew bases in Norway except OSL and simultaneously withdraw I.D. travel . . . . this may be "The Norwegian-Airline Way", but the public certainly do not wish it to be seen as "The Norwegian -Nationality Way".

It was a massive own goal, and the greater majority of the "intelligent" public know the score here, even if TV companies/newspapers who appear to either be "in the pocket" or enjoy "a special relationship" with big business tell them otherwise.

[tubby linton]

Cabin crew may strike as well.
Norwegian Pilot Strike Can Be Extended with Sympathy Strike - The Nordic Page - Economy (http://www.tnp.no/norway/economy/4848-norwegian-pilot-strike-can-be-extended-with-sympathy-strike-norway)

[semmern]

Yep, just goes to show how much you can believe what you read in the press.

The Norwegian public are neither gullible, nor suffering from short memories.

The "Big Bear" has somehow managed to have a major falling out with his staff annually for some time now, and the public remember that. The last one (involving the Cabin Crew) was very damaging to his reputation, as they tried to bully the CC into backing down by threatening to close all the crew bases in Norway except OSL and simultaneously withdraw I.D. travel . . . . this may be "The Norwegian-Airline Way", but the public certainly do not wish it to be seen as "The Norwegian -Nationality Way".

It was a massive own goal, and the greater majority of the "intelligent" public know the score here, even if TV companies/newspapers who appear to either be "in the pocket" or enjoy "a special relationship" with big business tell them otherwise.

I dunno, there seems to be an awful lot of "fire the complaining :mad: who strike Dear Provider of Cheap Tickets' company to bankruptcy, 'cause it's all their fault, innit" posts in the comments sections of newspapers these days. Hopefully those are just the unwashed masses, while those who can actually put two and two together are far too intelligent to blather about in comments sections.. Hopefully.

[Guttn]

Of course, but at the same time it is those same individuals who are more concerned about whether their flight may be affected, say, on Sunday, so that they can go on one of their 5 or 6 annual breaks, rather than accepting the fact that if BK gets away with this, then the door is wide open for any employer (in Norway at least, not quite sure about the rest of Scandinavia due to somewhat different laws) to do exactly the same thing; split and conquer, then outsource the employees :mad:. And they won`t know what hit them !!
The individuals who can correctly add things up might just happen to be the ones who are backing the NPU, those who see the big picture and the near future if things keep going in the wrong direction. Of course, employers, bean counters and CEOs are paying well attention to what is going on and how things are unravelling. Nobody wants industrial action, but in dire times it can and will be needed. Today is the last day before Parat/NPU pull all 650 pilots. Let`s see what happens. Standing right beside you guys! :ok:

[Googlebug]

On another thread about RYR baseing in CPH someone mentioned the ability in industrial law of Scandinavian countries for other services to get involved in industrial action in support eg. Fuel and ground staff. Could the same be true with this dispute.

In fairness I have no idea if the legality is correct in the other thread.

[truckflyer]

It does feel that the message to the public that this is not about a major pay increase, as not been conveyed good enough.
It also does seem that NAS have been better to lobby with the "newspapers" to give this a negative spin over the pilots.

People in a lot of the articles are responding that pilots should be ashamed on their close to £200.000 salaries! I believe even one newspaper made a list over the top 10 earners in Norwegian, where the majority was pilots, close to the £200.000 mark. (1.9 mill kroner)
Now I have not seen this article, but saw a reference to it somewhere else.

Furthermore DAT in October was looking for 15 - 20 A320 Captains, I wonder if this connection between Norwegian and DAT has been planned and organized for quite some time.

[captplaystation]

truckflyer, I believe that assumption is correct. . . .every action by NAS has "mandated" this impasse we are in now, so I think plans will have been in place for some time now.

Googlebug, a request for "mutual assistance" was sent out to IFALPA by the Swedish Union, and I believe refuellers baggage handlers etc may be eligible to help . . . . can't imagine the CPH baggage lads missing the opportunity :ok:

[CargoOne]

Do I understand it correctly all fuss is about highly paid Scandinavian crews do not want to loose their privileges and become equal to their colleagues from rest of Europe (all working for the same airline) and therefore asking those low paid colleagues to support them?

I wonder whether Scandinavian crews ever raised a voice on a matter that their colleagues are earning less than them while doing the same job?

[Cont]

You understand incorrectly on all points.

[somethingclever]

No you do not understand correctly. At all.

Go away.

[CargoOne]

somethingclever

is it opinion of Scandinavian crew or Euro crew? :ugh:

[Cont]

Euro crew on my part, still think you are completely wrong.

[somethingclever]

It is the opinion of intelligent crew.

[captplaystation]

CargoOne , you are a Troll, please leave the debate to those who have at least an inkling of what they are talking about.

[CargoOne]

I am not a troll, I am just wondering. On a more serious note guys keep in mind NAX had provisioned A LOT of wet leases from tomorrow on extendable basis. And when I've heard for how long they possibly looking to extend those wet leases in a worst case scenario, I don't think you have a chance.

[LoCo Commotion]

I wonder which Norwegian company has contracted the wet leased aircraft? If they have been contracted through NAN and then the Norwegian parent company choose to bankrupt NAN, these charter companies aren't going to get paid a penny.

If I were a director of any of these charter companies brought in to counter the strike I'd be very wary indeed and concerned that I might not see payment. With the moral vacuum that exists within Norwegian management I certainly would not put it past them to try.

[CargoOne]

LoCo Commotion

All paid upfront today so for good or bad but it will be going

[davidjohnson6]

The finance director of a charter company in this situation will likely pay close attention to which company / legal entity the contract is with and also which country's laws applied to any contract - this is all fairly standard stuff around contracts in company law.

At the worst case, a charter company can always ask for payment up front or in an escrow account, before any pax are loaded onto a wet lease aircraft.

[gorter]

Rumour network is that a northern UK company has been wet leased to fly some Norwegian flights.

[itsnotwhoyouknow]

a northern uk company that fly 737? in this case, they are running short of pilots to fly for their own company never mind leasing out!

[Le sok]

According to the Danish news Jet2.com is flying for Norwegian in Norway:

Norwegian masseaflyser flyafgange (opd.) (http://www.check-in.dk/norwegian-aflyser-alle-indenrigsafgange#.VPal8M6KbMI)

[Dualbleed]

Now 100% certain that if my company called for a wetlease to Scandinavia my first call would be to my AME. Would have too much in my head to operate safely. Think this is what most in Europe think. God Speed everyone.

[CaptainProp]

I'm not a big fan of unions, or locos, but if the collective European pilot group really want to do something about the dwindling T&Cs then follow Dualbleed's example.

If you operate any flight for Norwegian then don't come here complaining about you pay and working conditions.

[Cautious]

Streik i Norwegian (statustråd) - Page 4 - Flyprat (http://forum.flyprat.no/showthread.php?t=130537&page=4)
Edited by removing some remarks in norwegian language.

OSL:
DY1800 til Malaga: GJZHA (Jet2)
DY2801 til London: EIFHE (irsk DY, tidl. LN_NOD)
DY932 til København: LNDYR (norsk DY)
DY804 til Stockholm: LNDOO (norsk DY)
DY1790 til Alicante (2 t forsinka): GPOWI (Titan, 320)
DY1872 til Roma (2 t forsinka): CSTRO (White, A320)
DY1740 Barcelona: CSTQU (B738, Corendon Dutch Airlines)
DY3222 København: OYLHD (DAT A320)
DY1502 Praha: YLLCO (Smartlynx 320)
DY1632 Wien: LYVEO (Thomas Cook UK, 320)
DY1976 Beograd (kraftig forsinket): LYVEO (samme som linja over)
DY1348 Manchester: LNNOO (norsk DY)
DY1550 Budapest: LNDYI (norsk DY)
DY2803 London: EIFHG (irsk DY, tidl. LN-NOJ)
DY1642 Salzburg: LNDYR (norsk DY)
DY1060 Tallinn: LNNGN (norsk DY)
DY1072 Riga (kraftig forsinket): CSTRO
DY1052 Gdansk: LNNOF (norsk DY)
DY5415 Madrid: LNNGY (norsk DY)
DY2805 London: EIFHE
DY940 København (forsinket): LNNOF (norsk DY).

Det virker med andre ord som de leier inn:
GJZHA fra Jet2
GPOWI fra Titan
CSTRO fra White
CSTQU fra Corendon Dutch Airlines
OYLHD fra DAT
YLLCO fra Smartlynx
LYVEO fra Thomas Cook UK


Cph
GPOWH fra Titan
OYRUD fra DAT

og Stockholm:
YLLCA fra Smartlynx
YLLCM fra Smartlynx

[Busterpilot]

LYVEO fra Thomas Cook UK


LYVEO is operated by AVION Express...

[captplaystation]

Until you have the backup of a Union telling you that you may not fly, you will be putting your own job on the line if you don't operate.

There is of course nothing to stop the individual calling in "unfit to fly" due to the stresses & distractions caused to you by doing something you fundamentally know is wrong.

I have asked directly to the Union if I may participate, and was told that as a "Contractor" 100% no I may not. This has been in relation to operating a flight that is not K Area /Scandinavian production.

I believe several colleagues have reported "unfit to fly" when rostered out of their EURO bases to fly in Scandinavia. For the moment that is the only option available to them without risking dismissal.

[fox niner]

The pilots are on strike, so they send the cabin staff home, WITHOUT pay!
I guess they better start striking as well....!:ugh:

800 Norwegian staff "will be sent home without pay" - Radio Sweden | Sveriges Radio (http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=6107577)

[Direct Bondi]

I am truly impressed with the cohesion and resolve of the striking pilots. I support them 100%.

several colleagues have reported "unfit to fly" when rostered out of their EURO bases to fly in Scandinavia. For the moment that is the only option available to them without risking dismissal.

"without risking dismissal" - Norwegian contractors should fully review the content of their respective AGENCY contracts:

Authority
The Crew Member shall be subject to the operational control of the Present Lessee and the Present Lessee shall have the authority to supervise, direct and control the Crew Member in accordance with the Present Lessee's standard procedures and requirements. (or similar).

Termination
A notice of 30-days is required for voluntary termination by both parties. Notice shall be in writing etc etc.
(name of agency) may terminate this Agreement with immediate effect at any time, without notice, if the Crew Member: .....fails or refuses to carry out the specified services under this agreement. (or similar).

Bottom Line:
After Crew Plan calls and you refuse to zip over to Scandinavia and replace a striking colleague - Grounds for immediate termination.
Call in sick after such instructions - May be fired with 30 days notice, no reason required (voluntary termination clause).

Remember what happened at the end of 2012? - all contractors were fired on 30-days notice and required to accept a new contract or hit the road. Which reveals an additional point, your contract is only ever really valid for 30-days.

If any contractor is fired for not wishing to be a strikebreaker, there is absolutely nothing you will be able to do about it because you DO NOT have an employer/employee relationship with Norwegian. Your employer is the respective agency.

I doubt the EU will act to end this abhorrent agency business model. Contractors flying for Norwegian have a golden opportunity to join their Scandinavia colleagues and demand you ALL be included in a collective agreement and that Norwegian is your "employer". At such time you will truly be ONE GROUP OF NORWEGIAN PILOTS.

[beardy]

Is it true, or just a rumour that Jet2 are operating a sub lease to Norwegian Air Shuttle to cover routes disrupted by the pilots' strike?

[paully]

Yes they have one aircraft chartered, along with many other airlines including Titan..more details on terms and endearment thread

[JW411]

Are we to expect the same sort of solidarity that was shown when the Brits almost tripped over themselves to head for Australia in 1989?

I also smile when I hear stories about IFALPA black-balling pilots. I'm afraid that is another load of :mad: as well.

They might be able to influence who gets hired into BA, SAS, Lufthansa etc but that is a pretty pointless exercise since the pilots involved have already been turned down by BA, SAS, Lufthansa etc.

It is always useful to remember that the airline involved will be spending a fortune wet-leasing so that might help get them to the negotiating table.

By the way, I speak from experience. I have a wardrobe full of (failed) airline uniforms and I have been involved in more employment disagreements than a lot of you.

The problem that the core strikers have is in asking the many much less paid pilots in the organisation to support their cause when they are (possibly incorrectly) assumed to have done precisely nothing to have stopped the downward slide in the status of the youngsters joining the company.

When I was in the military it was called " :mad: you Jack, I'm all right".

Solidarity? Surprise me please.

[Narrow Runway]

You say "They might be able to influence who gets hired into BA, SAS, Lufthansa etc but that is a pretty pointless exercise since the pilots involved have already been turned down by BA, SAS, Lufthansa etc."

Do you mean that all the pilots in any companies, that may decide to undertake charter work, in order to keep "Norwegian" services operating, have all been turned down by the above airlines? Companies that are in business for the reason of being in business, i.e. a return on capital employed for shareholder return.....

If so, that is an extraordinary statement. And one that is actually very incorrect!!

[captplaystation]

Direct Bondi,

you are quoting from a superseded contract. Notice period either way for those who have signed a Contract with OSM /NAR ES /NAR FI is 3 months. Most are now on these "permanent" contracts.

It is your legal obligation to ascertain whether you are fit to fly, and a company attempting to impose disciplinary measures on a crew member who has (in his own judgement ) assessed himself unfit, is in very serious contravention of all National Aviation Authority rules.

What has happened , with the Scandinavian based crews, is that the company has withdrawn the right to "self-certify" for the 1st 3 days of sickness. This could well be extended to the EURO pilots, but, it will (as discussed earlier in the thread) be self defeating.

No Doctor is going to put his name/career on the line by failing to sign off a flight crew member who states that he is unable to perform due to stress, and, as further stated in the previous post, is more than likely to sign the individual off for more than a couple of days, and probably demand a return visit to recertify the individual as fit.


I do however totally agree with your assertion that . . . . . . " Contractors flying for Norwegian have a golden opportunity to join their Scandinavia colleagues and demand you ALL be included in a collective agreement and that Norwegian is your "employer". At such time you will truly be ONE GROUP OF NORWEGIAN PILOTS."

[chrian_dk]

jw411, i completely resent pretty much your entire comment, from you, your military experience, and all the airlines that have been in their right mind to leave you with nothing but..... the uniform.

the fact is that the euro based pilots, are mostly based in veeeeery reasonably pricing areas of europe, both tax, housing, food and allowance. those of them that have half a brain, stick by their :mad: colleagues, respect what they have build, and stand by them in thick and thin, yeah they cannot support a strike YET.... trust me this fight is far from over.

[Direct Bondi]

As reported in Norway's Dagbladet evening edition, the Spanish pilot union, SEPLA, are considering their intended course of action:

"Today was the message from SEPLA that union lawyers are now considering the matter"

"Javier Martinez de Velasco believes pilots must be a permanent employee of an airline"

"we will have good working conditions and wages and a collective employment contract, says SEPLA president Javier Martinez de Velasco"

*Link:

Norwegian-piloter i Spania «håper og ber» for norske kolleger - nyheter - Dagbladet.no (http://www.dagbladet.no/2015/03/04/nyheter/luftfart/arbeidsliv/38041744/)

*use Google Translate

I think you should ALL go for it. Good luck, whatever your 'collective' decision :ok:

[somethingclever]

Funny how eager the "colleagues" on pprune are to heckle the 0.001% of the industry who have some smidgeon of self-worth left.

Never mind. I'm pretty sure I'll be leaving it all behind, after which I'll be travelling exclusively with Ryanair on their two euro offers. They can fly me at a loss and the rest of you can miss out altogether. I'll break out a crate of cold ones and watch the matiné of "Death of a Career" starring all the clever monkeys who couldn't wait to bend over for another peanut.

Keep staring blankly out the window there Captain Cheeks R Spread. I'll be at home, living life.

[LS-4]

RPG supports Norwegian pilots:

https://www.ryanairpilotgroup.com/sites/default/files/press-releases/RPG%20Press%20Release%20-%20Ryanair%20Pilot%20Group%20supports%20Norwegian%20pilots%E 2%80%99%20Action-%20March%203rd%202015.pdf

[SMT Member]

Latest news is that Norwegian have transferred (as in, it's already done) their Scandinavian pilots to 3 different subsidiaries: Pilot Services Norway, - Sweden and - Denmark. As per a management press release, it's done to 'enable pilots to better influence their future' and that present terms and conditions will prevail.

What they don't mention, is that the pilots will be split in 3 separate CLAs, and that future T&C negotiations will take place with each individual subsidiary. In other words, they've split the Scandi pilot pool in 3 and will, undoubtedly, use that in the future to play one against the other. With the fantastically egoistic attitude of many pilots, they'll probably have much success further suppressing the T&C's if they can pull it off.

[keebird]

"Divide and conquer".
Classic strategy...And classic union busting strategy.

[LoCo Commotion]

Yes, but can the company actually do this without agreement from the pilots concerned? Is it actually legal to do this? Wouldn't the pilots need to give their consent for their employment to be transerred to another entity?

[chksix]

It'll be a sign it or leave type of deal...:uhoh:

(I'm in shipping and we are paying close attention to all of this since our employers look with envy at the LoCos)

[captplaystation]

SMT Member,

"With the fantastically egoistic attitude of many pilots, they'll probably have much success further suppressing the T&C's if they can pull it off." may apply to some sad individuals, but the collective will of the K Area pilots is to stay together believe me. They are only too aware of the repercussions of being split into ever smaller groups, and I doubt the offer of a better pension deal for the Norwegian (nationality) pilots is going to have much influence in whether they wish to stick with their Swedish & Danish colleagues. For once, pilots are actually seeing the "big picture" here, a refreshing change so far.

It has been written elsewhere that the company cannot exercise control over striking workers, so, even if they have de facto established 3 new companies, the "kind offer" has not been accepted.

It ain't over till the Fat Lady sings, and she is not even yet in the auditorium.

[captplaystation]

chksix,

the "offer" is indeed worded in such terms, however . . . . half of the companies pilots are on strike, and another 30-40% are just waiting on a legal ruling which will hopefully confirm that (as they are "employed" in another country / company. . . . bit of an own goal there ) they cannot pick up the Baton & run in another territory in strike -breaking style.

This is far far from being done & dusted, & BK would be best to leave the Moet & Chandon on ice for another day.

[LoCo Commotion]

From the Red Nose article 'Enough is enough', 3pm has come and gone...... did anything happen?

[captplaystation]

Please read the 6 posts (including one of your own) above your last . . . . . . the strike continues tomorrow, nuff said (doesn't sound like a "resolution" to me ) :rolleyes:

[LoCo Commotion]

CaptPS, I appreciate that the pilots are still on strike and I am aware of previous post content - I was just curious to know if the parties actually got as far as sitting around the table again this afternoon regardless of any outcome.

[samca]

Good luck I hope Pilots will win the battle and Also I expect that spanish Pilots contacted by The company for a base changing don't accept this unilateral decition.
Regards from the other side of the Ocean

[captplaystation]

LoCo, there is a meeting at this very moment. . . .who knows what will be the outcome, yesterday was just another attempt by NAS to enforce their will, which is to split us into ever smaller groups.

samca, at the moment we cannot refuse any duty in SCAN, however, many colleagues have found the prospect of "strike breaking" too stressful & have reported "unfit to fly". If this sorry mess continues we are waiting for a mandate from a Spanish court ,that SEPLA has requested, forbidding us on Spanish Contracts employed by a "Spanish company" ( as ES based contractors are) to strike break in another jurisdiction.

[deptrai]

only partially related to the ongoing strike...some food for thought, when "clever" corporate structures end up in court (such as ltd companies providing "pilot services" by one employee), a court of law may consider whether the set-up was made to circumvent a law, and may decide to disregard it. Another obvious example, a parent company may not set up a daughter company as an operating entity solely to run it into bankruptcy and thus get rid of debt. And another example, there is some precedent in some jurisdictions, including Norway, that a parent company may have certain responsibilities towards employees of a subsidiary, even if the subsidiary is the legal employer. Lets consider the unlikely case that NAN goes bankrupt: NAS may well be held responsible for certain obligations. Legal structures are not written in stone, a court of law can disregard "creative" coprorate structures that are used to circumvent other laws. Same goes for collective bargaining, or strikebreaking, a court of law could well decide that a "clever" set up with pilots employed in different legal entities is irrelevant ...however the outcome of a legal process is highly unpredictable, and can take years, so obviously it's best if the parties can agree :ok:

[BeforeStart]

Jet2 is present in OSL doing flights affected by the strike. What do the crews operating these flights think about this? And what does BALPA say?

[CaptainProp]

I was told by a friend that there had been a deadline set by the company for 16:00 today, any news on this?

[deptrai]

Swedish Pilots in NAN were told to accept the reorganization, and get transferred to Pilot Services Sweden, or terminated.

The Swedish Pilot Union responded by suggesting that pilots on strike stay calm, don't respond to any threats, and let the Union lead negotiations, and that the strike will continue until a new collective agreement is reached.

The 16.00 deadline to get transferred from NAN to Pilot Services Sweden passed. Some more information will suppesedly be forthcoming 19.00

[DR1974]

Information at 1900. Where? :)

[itsnotwhoyouknow]

Most jet2 pilots don't want to break strike. Some have. But some know how important this all is.

Balpa can't act like Spanish can't either unless the rulings take storm. Let's hope this is the boost pilots have needed, the scandis are staying strong and morale is high. We can only thank them. :ok::D

[deptrai]

Information at 1900. Where?

some vague, or careful statements from the Norwegian (govt, not airline) state arbitrator. Something like, they're still negotiating, apparently "constructively", they're getting closer to solve some issues, while there's other issues which are more difficult. BK is participating in one negotiation, there are other groups of negotiators working on different issues in parallel, and they'll continue to negotiate...there's a smell of pizza, and they may need to order more food if they continue the whole night. Right now at this moment there is no reason to end negotiations, as long as there is hope to find an agreement

[captplaystation]

I don't believe there is any deadline as such, I just hope that Norwegian (the company ) realise that this is "end-game" for screwing over their employees/failing to honour agreements/ trying to forlornly imitate Ryanair.

If they do, this will all be done & dusted fairly easily, if not. . . . . well, they have as much if not more to lose than us, and losing to us matters less, as we are only losing a future in that case where we are annually beaten down ever & ever further into third world conditions.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Most jet2 pilots don't want to break strike. Some have. But some know how important this all is.


Those that have didn't have a choice. Balpa advice was to not refuse but don't volunteer.

[itsnotwhoyouknow]

There is always a choice of you want to go down the route of unfit to fly due to mentally unfit due breaking strike and feeling pressured. So always a choice.

[Thrush]

All you Jet2 boys - Meeson is a mate of Kjos so don't come along moaning when Big Phil issues your new contracts.... Has honour deserted everyone who is flying the :mad: DY flights in the Scandi area?

Bad show.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

So they/we/I have to get signed off for being mentally unfit?

Do you understand the implications of that? Because I've seen how difficult it is for a colleague to return to flying following time off for stress.

It involves a psychological assessment for a start. No ta. No choice.

[deptrai]

I don't believe there is any deadline as such

ask your swedish colleagues in NAN

http://s11.postimg.org/a5w60efhv/deadline.jpg

don't underestimate what a clever :mad: BK is...he's operating in grey areas of labor law.

[captplaystation]

deptrai,

a bit "selective" your cut & paste :hmm: whose side are you actually on Mate ?

This is the "uncut" version from the "Norwegian" version of the letter . As I said on a previous post, the company are not allowed by law to exercise any effective control over anyone on strike. . .so, the "generous" offer is automatically deferred/null & void for anyone actually on strike.

"Please note that you have a right to object to your employment being transferred to Pilot Services Norway AS, cf. the Norwegian Employment Act Section 16-3 (the right of reservation). The right of reservation implies that you may leave NAN regardless of your notice period, and consequently that your employment with NAN is terminated as of the transfer date. Should you choose to exercise your right of reservation, you must notify Pilot Services Norway AS thereof, within 14 days from the receipt of this letter. "

I do rather old chap, harbour some suspicions as regard your provenence/motives.




itsnotwhoyouknow There is always a choice of you want to go down the route of unfit to fly due to mentally unfit due breaking strike and feeling pressured. So always a choice.. . . . exactly, & many have recently made wise choices.


Lord Spandex Masher So they/we/I have to get signed off for being mentally unfit?

Do you understand the implications of that? Because I've seen how difficult it is for a colleague to return to flying following time off for stress.

It involves a psychological assessment for a start. No ta. No choice.



You do exaggerate slightly. . . if your child was killed in a road accident, or you saw some motorcyclist mutilated by a Bus on the way to work, would I brand you a Loony ? Similarly, if you are asked to walk by your colleagues, standing in line in OSL, to operate their flight, would you not feel a little too "distracted" to fly. . .or are you "a bigger man" than that :yuk:

[Lord Spandex Masher]

My motives for what?

What, exactly, am I exaggerating?

Are you suggesting I should react to the violent loss of my child's life in a road accident and the Norwegian situation with the same level of grief?

[captplaystation]

Unless you are one & the same person as deptrai, I believe once I had got my post edited correctly the query over motives was directed at him.

The accusation of exaggerating, is that no-one is suggesting being "mentally unfit".

I think it is fairly obvious that anyone (with any scruples/spine) could not walk past a picket line of colleagues, who are defending both their & your conditions ( & please don't start to query that, as they are actually defending the rights of every airline pilot in Europe . . .if you take the time to think it through ) to then enter a Crewroom eerily empty, except for stony faced Cabin Crew, who, whilst not on strike, remember the support they received from the Based pilots during their recent troubles , and then be expected to "erase" that & have a normal day. (It can't really be, as colleagues who have had to, have found a strange lack of coffee during their shift )

Do you seriously think that anyone with some iota of conscience/empathy with their fellow pilots can do this & devote 100% of the attention required to the job in hand. . . or, as I said, are you " a bigger man" & we are all :mad:/lefty namby pambies. ?

Perhaps we are, but we will possibly be displaying more spinal structure than anyone who just wanders in & blasts off as if nothing is amiss.

No, it is not the same as the "extreme" examples I quoted, but, I believe it is quite enough to be major distraction, and a very "fair" reason, to report "unfit to fly". . . if one is so minded. . . . . maybe YOU are not (sorry for you := )

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Perhaps you might realise that I posted before you edited.

Actually mentally unfit is exactly what was suggested.

There is always a choice of you want to go down the route of unfit to fly due to mentally unfit due breaking strike and feeling pressured. So always a choice.

Do you seriously think that anyone...
How would I know what other people's motives are?

And you can stop with all your finger wagging and "bigger man" crap directed at me, all I have done is explain reality - you will notice without opinion.

[itsnotwhoyouknow]

Lord spandex, being mentally unfit to fly due to feeling pressure from external conditions outside of your normal working day is not being mental. Some situations in life require a broader spectrum of understanding than what you are working to. I for one would not feel comfortable or able to safely operate against friends and colleagues in a picket line, it is not me joining the strike as I would work for my company elsewhere. My refusal to fly out of any scandi country due to my conscience and ability for safe flight in the circumstances would be the same if I was to be deployed to anywhere I felt unsafe to do my job aka the Crimea or anywhere else relevant and current.

Our conditions have been eroded massively over the years and it must have hit rock bottom. So all credit to those standing up. I spoke to some over the past few days and they deserve all our help and gratitude.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Let's just be clear that it was you who brought up "being mental". I said no such thing.

Good luck with the rest of your post and happy job hunting. I hear China has many opportunities at the moment.

[Elephant and Castle]

Pathetic and utterly spineless

[Lord Spandex Masher]

If you're addressing me then be so kind and explain.

[gorter]

Whilst sympathy strikes are completely illegal in the UK, unlike in other EU countries you can self certify unfit to work up to 7 days. Anything longer in one sitting requires a letter from a medical professional. It doesn't matter whether you have a sprained ankle or a severe mental disorder. No proof is required for the self certification days. More info can be found on both gov.co.uk and NHS choices.

Any employer who attempted to get you for gross misconduct as long as you followed the rules would have their backsides handed to them at employment tribunal before they could spell unfair dismissal. That's not to say that once your cards are marked management at the "employer of choice" wouldn't wait for you to trip up in some other way and use any excuse to haul you over the fires. They're "industry leading" like that.

For the avoidance of doubt I am making no recommendation as to whether any pilot finds them self fit to work or not. That is something they must decide for themselves on a day to day basis. As far as the ANO is concerned if they report for work they are declaring themselves fit at the start of their duty.

[youthinkso]

I am reading this discussion with interest as it would seem that whilst Norwegian is at this point a number of UK airlines may be on the verge of the same path over the course of this summer, so no doubt all of these posts and discussions are very close to home for many.

I have to agree with the comments made regarding mentally unfit etc, I don't have personal experience but I have colleagues who do and I can confirm this is a can of worms you don't really want to open, the time span in getting back to work is not a minimal one, you're probably talking circa 3 months.

The post about self certification and sickness is spot on, no UK employer can force you to get a sick note for sickness of less than 7 days, however likewise there would be nothing to stop an employer to dismiss/suspend an employee that did so if they suspected it was a sympathy strike, so, yes they would lose at tribunal, probably have to pay compensation and give you your job back, but that all takes time, how do you and your family fair in the interim, also it's the shock and awe tactic and once word spread they had dismissed/suspended someone for this would others follow suit ?

Most GP's are accommodating, I recall a visit to one in the depths of a summer and they were willing to write me a note when I explained how unreasonable my employer was, this was my insurance in the event I got questioned about my sickness over a period less than 7 days, it wouldn't then just be my word against theirs.

Fitness for duty means lots of things, fatigue being one, not just because of a busy roster, it could be your children not sleeping, you unable to sleep,your neighbours having a party till 5am, a car alarm going off all night, I think as a profession we report for work on many occasions when we shouldn't.

How many times do you report to work and your colleague is full of cold,"hey, thanks for rocking up and spreading your germs" 3 days later you have it, despite how much barroca and first defence you snort !!

You can rest assured the day something goes wrong and there is even slightest inkling you were not fit for duty it will be put down to pilot error, so, if you're unable to sleep due to worry over the situation which causes you be feel fatigued then you're fatigued, it's that simple, not knowing if your company will survive and worrying about how you would afford your next mortgage payment would keep me up at night !

I wish all Norwegian pilots the very best of luck and resolve in finding a solution that meets the fair aspirations of the workforce.

[Facelookbovvered]

Whilst all this 'brothers in arms" stuff is very commendable i doubt it will have any effect in the wider market place.

A few crews carrying out duties for which they can't legally refuse will not save Norwegian from oblivion if this goes on much longer, this strike will have done immense damage to Norwegian's reputation with its customer base and it will last for months, the financial cost must be running into ten's of millions by now, it is unbelievably stupid of the company to let this situation develop let alone continue.

Another few weeks of this and all Norwegian employee's will have the same terms and condition...........zero.......bonkers

[CargoOne]

I think number of flights cancelled is reasonably low now, it is more or less only intra-scandinavian flights affected and even not all of them. DY is keep extending wet leases, at the moment it is until.... Lets say it is not what most of you would be hoping for.

Discussion about reporting sick makes me wonder whether we see pilotless aircraft first or history of reporting sick will be integral part of logbook?

[youthinkso]

I think number of flights cancelled is reasonably low now, it is more or less only intra-scandinavian flights affected and even not all of them. DY is keep extending wet leases, at the moment it is until.... Lets say it is not what most of you would be hoping for.


I guess it depends what you want to achieve, if the company continues to operate flights through wet leases, costing it a lot of money, and the passenger disruption is minimal then your costing the company a lot of money, no doubt more than they would actually spend if they worked with the unions.


I don't think successful IA is all about the amount of flights cancelled and measured by disruption to the public.

[deptrai]

captplaystation,

I was aware of the letter you quoted, as well as the one sent to the Danes. In didn't intend to selectively cut and paste, the cropping hampers readability and I apologize for that, but it isn't hard to figure out the full text. I fully agree with you that it's automatically deferred/null & void for anyone on strike, yet I think it's potentially confusing, and that it was an unnecessary move of NAS/NAN in this situation. A lot of people did perceive it as a threat/deadline, particularly the recipients of the swedish version. As for questioning my motives/provenance and whose side I am on, I'm not sure what lead you to question that, so I can't answer you, but I fully support NAS/NAN pilots.

[CargoOne]

Actually wetleases this time of a year are reasonably cheap - and will continue to be so until end the March - lots of extra capacity on the market (taking widebody was a bit weird to me). Ofcourse there are extra costs on top of that etc but I dont think it is really big trouble maker for DY for a time being and certainly not in a big picture of dealing with unions.

I know setups where pilots deserve the sympaty from colleagues however I dont beleive a second DY is one of those. You loosing the original point - you will not have this job if DY will not exist. Some of you lucky enough would have a job with SK and the rest will be working elsewhere. And nobody stops you to work elsewhere - we are leaving in a free world dont we? Remeber there have been a number of airlines who were successfully destroyed by pilot unions to nobody's benefit.

[deptrai]

The way I understand it, this strike is less about T&C's such as money and pensions, and more about fundamental issues like the right to bargain collectively with the "real"/"beneficial" owner/operator, the company that makes decisions, and not a just legal front-end/subsidiary. It's an attempt to stand united against RYR-esque split and conquer union-busting strategies.

[captplaystation]

CargoOne,

"I know setups where pilots deserve the sympaty from colleagues however I dont beleive a second DY is one of those."

Do you have the faintest idea of the reason behind the strike ? do you know what the company "offer" to the Scandinavian based pilots was ? do you see now that most (but not all of that ) is now on back on the table ? do you also see that the "elephant" in the room is the companies avowed intention to split 650 pilots into 3 smaller groups ? do you have the imagination to see where this will leave them in 1 year (or less) when the next negotiations start ?

In short, it is nice to have the "inside line " from you on "wet-lease"news, but, do you really understand why this is happening, and that maybe , just maybe, it is a rather bigger issue than a bunch of (no doubt you feel pampered/spoiled) Scandi pilots flexing industrial muscle. This conflict is a litmus test for any Unionised company in Europe, and our Boss is in the meantime destroying the small crumbs of credibility he had over his application in the States, and ensuring our losses this year will probably be surpassed in the next. . . . the investors must be wondering about the calibre of management decisions being taken too I would wager.

[youthinkso]

Deptrai,

My understanding is there there is no chance to even negotiate about T&C's without the recognition agreement, so fighting to get recognition is by far the biggest and most worthwhile fight, this is About T&C's ...and then some ! :ok:

Cargoone ? Are you saying if you don't like corporate greed at the expense of pilots conditions you should just move on ? There is always a middle ground to be found, a recognition agreement and trade unions that are worth their salt recognise that and work with employers and employees/members to bring a united solution that works for everyone, without it and with the willingness to RYR the industry the only winners are fat cats and losers those of us who sit in the cupboard at the front :ok:

[deptrai]

back to the negotiations...they started 13:00 yesterday and went home 5.30 (am), after a last pizza delivery, and will be back talking to each other in 30 minutes again, 15:00

(and in parenthesis, on the issue of sympathy strikes, I heard Danish "Serviceforbundet" announced a sympathy strike, which is perfectly legal in Denmark, to start in about 12 days, possibly involving up to 2000 cabin and cockpit crew and 1000 ground staff, including airport security, aimed at blocking flights that replace regular NAS/NAN a/c and pilots)

[TypeIV]

Just a speculation from an amateur layman,

After all, Kjos has pulled off what's almost impossible, becoming a billionaire in Scandiland.

I would guess that he knows exactly what he is doing. A carefully planned and choreographed manouvre.

Since there are big debts (huge amounts of pax compansations and some bad financial decisions) and hedgecosts for the coming year budgeted for, on the balance of the previous year (2015 costs budgeted in 2014), I think that this is just a manouvre to dump the parts of Norwegian having costs and debts, thus, shafting customers, pilots and suppliers. He will get rid of NPU at the same time. He knows that the lower the price is, the shorter the memory.

I have a feeling that he wants to run the unhealthy (from a beancounters point of view) parts into bancruptcy and then blame the pilots and unions in order not having to face the bad will and the legal liability for his debts. What will be left is a brand new Ryanair. Or will they finally merge?

[gorter]

I think TypeIV that you're probably a lot closer to the mark than many would be willing to admit. It's a very calculated move by BK. I'm quite sure he can bury a lot of bad debt in this and walk away scot free

[captplaystation]

I wish I had reasonable grounds to disagree with you, but. . . . . . . . . . . . .

[deptrai]

TypeIV and Gorter, re speculations from an amateur layman, thank you for labelling it as such, imho your speculations are bordering on conspiracy theories (of which there are already too many on PPRuNe). To spell it out, you speculate BK is planning some kind of criminal heist, essentially white-collar bank robbery by defrauding lenders, aka bankruptcy fraud. I think the explanation is far simpler: BK tries to build a clever corporate legal structure to circumvent certain laws (and this is not a crime). He has already done that, by having pilots employed in NAN, NAS is able to wetlease aircraft and use pilots not employed by NAN to break the streak without making it strikebreaking from a legal standpoint. The way I understand it, if pilots were employed by NAS directly, he would not be able to do that (legally). What he already does is a legal grey area, a "creative" legal structure. And his plan is to "perfect" his parent/subsidiary (holding/operating company) structure, with more front-ends to further split pilots, employing them at different T&C's etc, and destroying their abilitities to effectively bargain collectively (and strike). It's a much simpler, and therefor more plausible explanation imho.

[TypeIV]

deptrai,

You're welcome, I'm glad to read less cynical theories than mine but with recent moves in fresh memory (treatment of pax, staff, laws, fiddling with taxes and such), my gut feeling resembles what one would feel after too much spicy food :8

If problems with brakes on an airplane and crews exceeding FDT are force majeure, I think that a bancruptcy preceeded by a serious strike would be claimed the same...

If we could (based on our very limited insight on this matter) right away determine what's legal or not, I'm sure our time would be worth too much to sit here on a gossiping network.

I guess time will tell, for our future's sake I hope that I'm completely wrong.

[deptrai]

I'll add my 5 cents re treatment of pax, staff, laws, fiddling with taxes and such, "force majeure" etc...I don't doubt he's creative when it comes to circumventing or bending certain civil laws, in a most likely fully "legal" way (yet a grey area as no court has yet looked at some of his practices in detail) however I think he is highly rational and would never consider to risk breaking penal/criminal law. Bankruptcy fraud would be the latter. There are big difference between the two bodies of law:

Civil law redresses wrongs by compelling compensation: the wrongdoer is not punished; he only suffers so much harm as is necessary to make good the wrong he has done. A case needs to be filed by a private party, and the claimant must produce evidence for a judge to find a wrongdoer liable.

In Criminal law on the other hand the object is not to compensate victims but to punish the wrongdoer, police/the government (with all their powers) investigate to find evidence, court cases are filed by the government, prison is an option if the defendant is found guilty.

Creatively bending some civil laws is unlikely to seriously hurt his "baby", the business he built, or himself; quite contrarily, he can probably get some advantages for his business, at a low risk, and make it grow. Most entrepreneurs/owners have strong feelings for the business they built, and wouldn't consciously risk to destroy it and lose everything (unlike some ruthless Enron-type "management" without an ownership interest).

While I don't trust my own understanding of laws a lot, BK as a trained lawyer, although not a practicing specialist in corporate or labor law, has access to very sound specialist legal advice, and I consider it highly unlikely he, at his age and with his background, would make such basic mistakes that would make him a criminal. Again, just my 5 cents.

[AUTO/MAN]

The big owner as a person does what he/she sees best.
Meaning that he/she as an entrepeaneur has no other obligations than to get a return for his/hers (and the people who funded his vision of an) investement.

He/she, assisted by previous trailblazer entrepeneurs in very succesful island based lo-co operator/owners moved the goalposts of an entire industry asking for applicants to pay for what used to be in the employers interest to train best available labour, and with your help the got away with it.

For you NAN,NAS,NAX it´s not about a right to organize yourselves, it´s your :mad: duty to participate in cleaning up the mess you decided to take an active part in to create.
Funny how you now rely on the support on the community you yourselves decided needed a makeover contrary to advice given by the industry even tough you decided to be the cheapest available self-funding labour.

Supporting your cause all the way through own and union actions.

That said not one of you clowns who got us/our industry in to this mess will be given a jumpseat, favour or help down the line.
You bought your way in to this business creating this mess on the way, buy your selves out of it.

[somethingclever]

Aaaw, look it's trying to think...

[AUTO/MAN]

Refering to me clever something?

[davidjohnson6]

To put NAN or any other pilot-employing subsidiaries into bankruptcy would be very much a nuclear option. Maybe relevant law would permit it, maybe not - my knowledge of bankruptcy law as applied specifically in Norway is nil.

However - this would likely permanently destroy any kind of mutual respect between pilots working for NAN and the parent airline. If BK wants to pull this trigger, he'd better have very serious contingency options available - like having a large pool of pilots ready to start flying at short notice; wet leasing over a prolonged period will be costly when DY has a fleet of its own sitting unused, and may be unattainable over the spring/summer.

Furthermore, if large numbers of flights are cancelled for a long period of time, it will take far far longer and be very expensive to regain the trust of passengers to book with Norwegian as a reliable airline.

Bluster is cheap, and over a number of years much can be done to further BK's interests, but with what is essentially a large company there's only so much that BK can really do in a short period of time without causing damage to his own long-term interests.

[deptrai]

...one weakness in BK's legal fiction that NAN (or whatever front end) is the legal employer, is that all important decisions seem to be taken by NAS. A court of law may accept that a subsidiary is a separate legal entity if it has some degree of independence, and makes it's own decisions. According to Norwegian law, an employer can decide that employees can no longer self-certify, and ask for a medical certificate from day one if employees are unfit to work...but where was that decision taken in BK's empire? And who communicated the decision? NAS, and NAS again. That might lead a judge to believe that NAS and NAN are one and the same, not really separate, independent entities, and that NAS is the actual employer...

I'm willing to take bets BK will give in at some point.

[TypeIV]

I hope so, but let's not forget that BK is one of the top lawyers in Norway and has had a long career turning the T&C in the shipping industry into a mess. He probably has an ace or two up his sleeve.

[SMT Member]

I am at a bit of a loss trying to understand, why some are still peddling the 'bankrupt NAN/NAS' plan, when BK has already publicly stated what his intended solution is: Transferring all current NAN staff to three new entities; Pilot Services Denmark, - Norway and - Sweden, effectively splitting an existing pilot group found to be unruly into 3 smaller and separate groups, making the managing of any one conflict at lot easier.

With reference to my previous rant on the egoistical nature of many pilots, and in agreement with a previous poster, there is no doubt the Norwegian pilot group are - to a certain extent - themselves responsible for having to have this fight. Much the same as with RYR, with the obvious difference that RYR pilots have allowed themselves to work under even worse conditions, making any hope of a collective action on their part virtually impossible. But the budding FO didn't care to part with a large wad of dosh, to pay himself into a seat and 500 hours in the book. Neither did the skipper mind setting himself up as a company, 'cause there was a way of being 'creative' with the taxes and social contributions.

In so many words, having been :mad: on from ever greater heights for a prolonged period, it's about time the pilot group in one of these, pardon the expression, contractual bottom feeders grew a set and stood up for themselves.

[itsnotwhoyouknow]

All credit to the Norwegian pilots for not joining in with this thead. But :rolleyes: Many did not create this mess and were scandi pilots flying elsewhere in Europe or Indonesia etc. so get off your high horse and and realise we all created this mess or just shut up and sit back down. If you are a pilot in this game for the past 20yrs you sat back and let this happen. If you paid for a rating you let this happen. We all did this. Let's sort this out once and for all and be a part of the greater good. If this fails we are screwed to an extent. Let all grow a pair and take this ride to let's hope better T's&cs.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Actually not all of us sat back and watched it happen, we were just ignored.

So, no, not all of us did this. But now you expect our help.

[BrianM]

Just wanted to voice my support for the Norwegian Pilots. Stay strong, stay together:D

[deptrai]

Lord Spandex Masher, I'd assume Scandinavian pilots with a right to vote (for a government) were among those voters who elected governments that create and uphold relatively decent labor laws. Let me cite Stefan Löfven, Swedish Prime Minister, a former trade union chairman, answering a question in parliament what he thinks of the strike: "I think it's despicable to use strikebreakers". Frankly, Scandiland pilots will be quite ok without the help of others, they're capable of helping themselves, and I don't think they're expecting the help of others, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Itsnotwhatyouknow expects it.

[somethingclever]

I wouldn't waste much breath here deptrai, just let the useful idiots play their blame game. Their attitude toward this strike is a fine example of why this industry is headed for certain doom.

[EMJ CDR]

For all Norwegian pilots: Very best for You all and stay strong with Your fight! This fight is going to affect all of us, despite of which airline we are working at. If You break under pressure, other airlines with their managements are going to follow this trend... This could also be "The moment" for all Norwegian pilots from different bases to unite!

Keep up the good work and disregard some strange posters with their very strange opinions concerning this fight!

[AUTO/MAN]

What very many posters seem to fail to understand is that Norwgian from the start of the transition from a small domestic turboprop operation to an international B737 operator was one of the few places where you could buy a job by paying for your rating.

Most of the guys back then happily joined, buying their job, not really thinking more about it or reflectintg over how the goalposts and standards of an entire industry were moved as typeratings used to be a cost for the employer
at the time. Apparently not caring much either, only happy to join an innovative operator promising a new future for airline transport.

Then the owner/operator decided to move the goalposts again by stopping the hiring into the airline and creating a subcontractorbusiness in to the same flightdecks. Bitching ensued but not to the point where the various European cockpit assosiations and unions were ready and geared to support their colleagues because a deal that didn't affect the initial job-buyers was made.

Given comfortable time to adjust and tune the operation the owner/operator struck again. This time by moving the goalposts by trying to get everyone get under less favourable contracting.
Why not, as any- and everything dished out before was accepted.

Happy to accept any corrections to factual faults in the above.

Now being strange or on high horses might be a matter of perspective I guess.

Strange:

Do I believe that Norwegian core pilots are fighting a battle for the sake of all of us?
Not really, they are mostly getting what they paid for.

Do I support their case?
Definitely. I have no choice and their business is affecting my business.

Funny because I still (sentimental reasons) hold a copy of the polite letter to decline the kind offer to join the Norwegian succes story from more than ten years ago sent when asked to pay for a rating to join a "small but growing company that will take the lead of European skies"

Norwegian (core) pilots not sticking it to the community by buying a rating are easily counted.
Likewise the contributors to this forum who seem to think buying a job makes you a professional instead of a customer.
Most of the followers likewise.

High horses:

Consumer advice/disclaimer
All of the above is written on employer provided hardware on paid time off excluding any of the annual eight weeks vacation, user(s) discretion mandatory.

[LNIDA]

The Sunday Times is reporting that Norwegian have applied for a UK AOC

It would be good to see G plates on Norwegian aircraft

[gorter]

Why would it be good?

[Direct Bondi]

The Sunday Times is reporting that Norwegian have applied for a UK AOC

Looks like there will be some vacant office space in Imbus House, Dublin.

One point missed in this marathon of union busting by Kjos, is that all those who oppose NAI in the USA have been watching events very closely indeed.

The AFL CIO and its affiliate unions, with 12.7 million members, is an opposing party to the NAI, Foreign Air Carrier Permit application, as are the 60,000 members of ALPA.

A UK AOC would change nothing. The Norwegian Airline Group has its principal place of business in non EU Member State, Norway. EFTA and EEA Agreements do not include the EU US Open Skies Agreement.

Too many "yes men" surround Kjos and compete to blow wind up his ass. Kjos will always have labour problems because he has no empathy whatsoever for workers standards, rights and principles.

[LNIDA]

One of the reasons that Norwegian's opponents in the USA have used is that in their view Irish oversight is weak and that the opportunity for the IAA to inspect Norwegian's operation is limited given that they do not fly to Ireland with EI plate aircraft, not an unreasonable point, SAFA's remit is somewhat different.

I think that with G plates on an UK AOC it would be much more difficult to deny them (Norwegian) open skies rights from the UK and elsewhere in Europe. The UK CAA for all its faults is respected world wide.

In a global economy it is increasingly difficult to define the principal place of business.

So yes i think it would be good to see DY flights with G plates

[deptrai]

Most flights to Finland have been cancelled today, because of a sympathy strike by Finnish ground handlers. Cheers.

http://www.finlandtimes.fi/travel/2015/03/08/14921/Norwegian-Air%E2%80%99s-labour-strike-expands-to-Finland

[gorter]

Ah right. So you're hoping DY get an air of respectability by trying it on with a different "regulatory" agency (I use the term loosely when it comes to the CAA) and therefore shoehorning the shoddy employment practices through a different avenue via a country with only marginally tighter employment regulations than Ireland. Gotcha!

Tell me again why they don't just want to leave it all on the Norwegian register? Diversity?

[joe two]

So yes i think it would be good to see DY flights with G plates

I strongly disagree with that , and it appears to be the same "bending of rules" that has got Norwegians (mis)management in this bad situation anyway ...

[captplaystation]

I only see one good point in G registry, and that would be associated with what/who we would get rid of, rather than what we may gain. . . . . all in my humble opinion of course. :rolleyes:

[fox niner]

As someone pointed out, sympathy strikes are forbidden in the UK, so that might be a reason for BK to switch to the UK.

[itsnotwhoyouknow]

Lard spandex I don't expect it. Nor am I a Norwegian pilot. I am however there to try and help my fellow pilots. Luckily you are one of the few who feel as you do.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Itsnotwhatyouknow, and how exactly is it that I feel? You're assuming quite a lot if you think you know. So let's hear it.

[itsnotwhoyouknow]

I'm not on here to have an argument with you, if you want that go chat to lady spandex.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Not how it works. You can't accuse me of something and then weasel your way out of it. You can't put words into my mouth and expect not to have to back up your assertions. Explain yourself.

[LNIDA]

Setting aside what you call shoddy employment practices, the principal reasons why Norwegian applied for an AOC outside of Norway is that Norway is not an EU country, Norway has an open skies accord with the EU allowing unrestricted access to/from for all European airlines and Norwegian airlines, but this will not allow Norwegian to operate on routes between EU countries and other countries where an open skies agreement exists e.g.; Europe to the USA, they have a temporary permit for LGW - USA but that will expire in March 2016.

The Norwegian social taxes are very high and can near double the employment costs of hiring a pilot this would make it impossible for Norwegian to compete on a level playing field even if it was giving employees the same package as BA pays it would still mean its costs would be far higher than BA.

Norwegian, like Ryanair and to a lesser extent easyJet are a trans European airline and it makes perfect sense for them and for many employee's to pay their taxes and social contributions in the country where they are based as required by European law. The have also invested heavily in both Malaga & Barcelona in ground based activities such as customer call centres and marketing amongst other things.

Whilst they have migrated from agencies such as Parc, Arpi & Confair to OSM the bigger change is that all employees are now on permanent contracts with 3 months notice rather than the old 1 months temp contracts, OSM also manage the HR functions for NAR.ES which employs pilots after 24 months, OSM are an agency NAR.ES is an wholly owned subsidiary, its activities are outsourced to OSM

All pilots will very shortly be fully complaint with the requirement of the tax authorities where they are based as required by law, ask any ex Ryanair ex pat and that is a huge peace of mind, its not perfect of course, Spanish based pilots of Danish origin and there are lots of them have difficulties over the lack of a double tax agreement between Spain and Denmark.

UK based pilots are now paid in GBP removing the exchange rate risk from UK pilots is a huge bonus, ask any Ryanair pilot paid in Euro's how much his/her converted salary has fallen since the pound surged before Xmas.

Much of Norwegians problems this past year have been down to the long haul project/vanity/fantasy take your pick and the knee jerk reaction to the red ink last Autumn and subsequent 60 layoff's, most of that was sorted before it happened and the damage to individuals was reduced, not all where high in debt and some took extended holidays/reduced working and in a couple of weeks that will be history.

The present dispute in Scandinavia is much more complicated and i will leave that alone, but no one i know off in the past 24months+ was ever promised a core contract or core T&C'S and certainly no Euro base pilot expected one, some Euro based pilots have moved into core but only off the back of moving to a core base in Scandinavia some are temp in core (seasonal) some are now permeant.

Hopefully an agreement between the company and the union will reached this next 48 hours and an agreement that both parties can live with for longer than the 12 month here we go again dispute that has been so damaging, having said that anyone who feels that this will set a new bench mark in pilot employment will likely be disappointed

[itsnotwhoyouknow]

Lord Spandex Masher

Actually not all of us sat back and watched it happen, we were just ignored.

So, no, not all of us did this. But now you expect our help.

Nah you're right. Dunno what led me to think what I do. Nor can I be bothered to post anything more to you on the matter. Most of us are behind the strike and that is enough.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Yet because I have to spell out reality to you you think I am not? That's very presumptuous.

[ZAV]

Ermm Interesting LNIDA your comments what makes it possible for OSM to hire pilots in Spain, are they licensed there?

[737Jock]

Norwegian, like Ryanair and to a lesser extent easyJet are a trans European airline and it makes perfect sense for them and for many employee's to pay their taxes and social contributions in the country where they are based as required by European law.

I believe easyJet is still over twice the size that Norwegian is. With about 50/60% of its fleet based ex-UK.

Although easyJet pilots are heavily unionized, the matter is that IA in any continental base are broken by the use of pilots on a UK contract. They cannot refuse to operate under UK law.
The pilots in easyJet have already been split up in to many different contracts per country in order to comply with the law so that social security is paid in the country where the pilot is based.

I'd say that easyJet is THE example of a trans European airline. Unlike Ryanair who continues to employ people on contracts in Ireland.

[LNIDA]

OSM offices are in Malaga near the port, not sure if that helps answer your question

[ZAV]

Thanks but just wondered how they employ the crews based in Spain?. Anyone know ?

[captplaystation]

LNIDA


" OSM also manage the HR functions for NAR.ES which employs pilots after 24 months, OSM are an agency NAR.ES is an wholly owned subsidiary,"


What have you been drinking man ? ? :eek: :rolleyes:



"manage" ? well, the tsunami has passed, and the mopping up continues

OSM would not like to be called an agency, they are a very respected employer of seamen . . . . . .

NAR ES , last time I checked, was an " inmobiliaria" I.E an Estate Agency. Still waiting to see who is the "accountable manager/chief pilot/HR Director" etc etc of this "wholly owned subsidiary" . . . . I do hope you haven't been drinking too much Koolade (nothing else up there affordable) working up in OSL on your days off, you are normally at least accurate when you try to offer praise. . . .

[deptrai]

"OSM would not like to be called an agency, they are a very respected employer of seamen"...laughing out loud. Isn't OSM, behind the cypriot companies, the former SAS pilot who got fired after a flight from SFO to CPH after SAS figured out he was body-leasing pilots to Nor Shuttle.

[captplaystation]

Yep, got it in one. . . . . I don't think the SAS Cabin Crew were too enamoured with his involvement in hiring Spanish CC to crew Finnairs BCN "base" either.

[gpsavd]

That for sure is interesting news

Kan gå mot fusjon mellom Norwegian og Ryanair (http://www.nettavisen.no/na24/kan-ga-mot-fusjon-mellom-norwegian-og-ryanair/8551861.html)

[speed_alive_rotate]

@gpsavd; that looks like a great read, any way of viewing it in English or could you translate the headline and I shall search for it online.

[Greenlights]

@gpsavd; that looks like a great read, any way of viewing it in English or could you translate the headline and I shall search for it online.

Take a seat.

The 2 airlines may merge. (FR and Norwegian).

my god, good luck in this industry guys.

[speed_alive_rotate]

OH MY!!! Thanks Greenlights

[stn]

Take a seat.

The 2 airlines may merge. (FR and Norwegian).

my god, good luck in this industry guys.

Highly doubtful. MOL/FR is known for doing anything for publicity (like this stunt, I imagine) and secondly, one does not make these merger talks public before anything happens. The statements usually come out after the merger has happened :rolleyes:

[Greenlights]

maybe maybe not.
Personnally, after all what we see, I would not be surprised at all. So I don't doubt a single second from what I read. :bored:

[gpsavd]

Sorry, running late...

Here's a go with Google translate, but read with caution, it is a bit of a wacky translation.


https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nettavisen.no%2Fna24%2Fkan-ga-mot-fusjon-mellom-norwegian-og-ryanair%2F8551861.html&edit-text= (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nettavisen.no%2Fna24%2Fkan-ga-mot-fusjon-mellom-norwegian-og-ryanair%2F8551861.html&edit-text=)

[speed_alive_rotate]

gpsavd thanks so much that is brilliant!!

[ZAV]

And who are they?

[deptrai]

Westforce Aviation is a company set up by Norwegian.

[Iver]

A merger makes strategic sense but it is unlikely. Merging with Norwegian would give MOL access to 787s and options he covets for a longhaul operation that he could legally operate out of 20+ Euro bases to the States. More importantly, a merger would remove a growing competitor. Common Boeing fleet types would facilitate a merger - let BK keep the Airbus NEOs for his leasing company.

That said, I also agree with others that a merger is unlikely due to politics and a battle of wills/egos between MOL and BK...

[fade to grey]

Well,
Whatever happens I don't think I want o'leary to get control of my plastic plane.
That won't be an improvement I'm sure.

[freightdog]

There seems to be no limit of airlines and pilots ready to fill in while the Norwegian pilots are fighting their battle. All kinds of shady airlines are already "stepping up to the plate" with pilots lacking all kinds principles.

At OSL airport spineless creatures in uniform are observed tip toeing from the terminal with overcoats to hide those uniforms. Pathetic! More worrying is the two more established airlines affiliated with both Star Alliance and Sky Team, CSA Czech Airlines og Aegean Airlines, that has joined the not so honorable activities.

Is it maybe time for the Czech Air Line Pilots Association and the Hellenic Air Line Pilots Association to wake up?

Like the front page of the Eastern Air Lines :mad: list once said: Its better to die while standing, than living on your knees!

[carbheatout]

Wow i find it amazing some of the aggression on display from a few individuals lurking around here. Mate, we are just making a living. We don't get to pick and choose what we want to do. We get told what to do and get paid for doing it. If you have a problem with some of the 3rd part operators then i suggest you get in touch with their Head Offices or go and give your own boss a smack instead of threatening individuals doing what they're paid to!

[tprop]

The spotters in Norway have been very active and have posted this list of airlines dba NAS over the past 10 days. Spotters tend to be more reliable in these matters than the parties involved, meaning more or less neutral.
I had no idea some of these airlines even existed.

- Avion Express
- Small Planet
- DAT
- Czech
- HiFly
- EuroAtlantic
- Jet2
- White
- Privilege Style
- Aegean
- Air Berlin
- Germania
- SmartLynx
- Titan
- SunAdria
- Go2Sky
- Moldovan Airlines
__________________

[somethingclever]

Agreement is in place and strike is over. Seems like a victory for the pilots.

[captplaystation]

What is it we used to harp (pun intended) on about in Ryanair Pilot Group & REPA before them UNITY UNITY UNITY ! ! ! absolutely vital result for all of us both within & outside the Norwegian company :D :ok: ;)

[CaptainProp]

Norwegian strike over (http://www.thelocal.no/20150310/norwegian-strike-over)

So this "deal" is valid for 3 years?

[Aluminium shuffler]

Well done the NAS pilots and NPU.

Freightdog, you are an idiot. Those pilots you are attacking don't have the choice of flying those sectors - if they refuse, they face the sack. Why should they jeopardise their homes and families for someone else's benefit? If their companies were also represented by the NPU, then perhaps with a ballot they could refuse, collectively, but they're not and so any withdrawl of labour on their part would be illegal.

I'll bet that you, as one of the gobbiest, would be the first to betray any other pilot in need, just as you attack them on here. Don't alienate the rest of the community, because one day when they are in a position to back or help you, they will chose not to. Grow up and get a perspective on reality and stop thinking the entire industry is about you.

[tprop]

They caved in. Again. They took the 3 years.
In 3 years they will be gone, replaced by cheaper contract pilots from :mad: Egypt or similar. Guys that have no training, no experience, no other prospects, and will be happy to work for next to nothing because it is still more than anything they could hope for back home. No way any of us can compete with them.
BK will have 3 years to figure out a way to get rid of NPU completely (and it will be brutal, he´s got the past 11 days to avenge. He might even figure out a way to do it quicker than that).
The NPU guys have 3 years to look for another job. Contract job of course.
We were all cheering you on, NPU. Thanks for nothing.

Poll: Who´s got the bigger grin on his mug right now?
a) BK
b) MOL
c) the boys at OSM
d) 3 way tie

[somethingclever]

I won't say who will win or not but you can rest assured that NPU will be spending the next three years preparing for all out war.

But long term? Surely anyone with half a brain can see that this profession is dead and buried. We will be replaced by pay to fly Asians who do as they're told, follow SOP mechanically and report each other for poorly polished shoes.

5-10 years it will be utter crap. 20 years it will be unbearable. My quest to change careers has already started.