Officially entering the hold

[flying apprentice]

When do you report to ATC that you've entered the hold ?

When you first pass over the 'beacon' to commence the join, or first time over the 'beacon' on the inbound track after the initial join is completed ?

[Superpilot]

The latter.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I'd have thought the former but, hey, I was just an ATCO. In a radar environment it hardly matters as the controllers will see you enter the hold and they will note the first time you cross the fix..

[India Four Two]

HD,
As a lowly PPL with a (now lapsed ) Canadian SE IR, I vividly remember reporting "Entering the hold" at the first beacon passage, during my training.

[172_driver]

Second passage over the beacon, if ATC asks me to report established in XX hold.

Entering the hold, not sure about that term and what it means really.

[Level Attitude]

"Cleared to enter the ABC Hold at xxxx'. Report Entering the Hold"
Requires you to report first time over the Beacon.

The fact that the first pattern flown may not necessarily be the classic racetrack is irrelevant - you have entered the hold.

[Superpilot]

LA, not according to my IR training!

[Charley]

During my IR I was taught to report 'entering the hold' first time over the beacon, and 'established in the hold' once in the racetrack, if so requested. Seems to have worked so far.

[Level Attitude]

SP, So what do you do if you've managed to arrive at the Beacon on a Heading that exactly matches the Inbound Track? One perfect Hold before reporting 'Entering the Hold'?

[flying apprentice]

Maybe there's a wording issue

Entering = first time over fix ( I previously said beacon, but you might be on a gps wpt or if you're really unlucky a vor/vor radial cut)

Established = first time over fix on the inbound track

But what would you report if your inbound trk is 180 deg and your join heading was 190 deg?

[Superpilot]

LA, if on the inbound in any case you are on a DIRECT join, i.e. there is no PROCEDURE required to get you established into the hold. Thus, the first time you pass over the beacon you are "entering the hold". If on a parallel or teardrop one would obviously delay the message and "entering the hold" is the only phrase I can recall ever being used.

Well truth is during IR training it was the same bleeding NDB we practiced with so only a couple of different situations ever came about. Since I've been flying slightly bigger metal commercially, I've only entered the hold 3 times in about 4 years! all occasions they were direct joins. My experience with holds is limited so I could be wrong.

[InSoMnIaC]

The fact that the first pattern flown may not necessarily be the classic racetrack is irrelevant - you have entered the hold.

Agreed.

Why would the type of entry be relevant to ATC? You would be separated Vertically anyway. They want to know that you have commenced holding. They don't care about your position in the hold

[Amadis of Gaul]

Just enter the hold UNofficially, problem solved.

[BOAC]

Would you then be held in contempt?

[glendalegoon]

superpilot is right

really I should say: correct


Cherokee 1234 holding bozo VOR at 5000. Entered holding at 21 EFC 27


I think originally the idea of being inbound to the fix became important because that was really the ONLY time you had precise navigation (back in the days of VOR/ADF).

IF you crossed the fix outbound before going inbound you were guessing about the wind etc. ONce inbound on the holding course you had positive nav, as opposed to just flying a heading and hoping for the best. You still had to compensate for winds to adjust your inbound leg to 1 min (or other)

Holding clearances and understanding and holding side etc all came about because OF DEATHS DUE TO MISUNDERSTANDING.

I still recall the man who examined me for my US Instrument rating drilling me endlessly about holding. WHY? His best friend entered holding near Salt Lake City, Utah, USA with an incorrect holding clearance and slammed into the Wasatch mountains killing all aboard.

Back in the good old days, we would report holding, and on approach, Outer Marker outbound, procedure turn OUTBOUND, procedure turn INbound, Outermarker inbound .

A man named Taylor wrote a great book a very long time ago called: INSTRUMENT FLYING. I encourage you to all read it. It is the "Stick and Rudder" of instrument flying.

I have poorly paraphrased him here. Good luck.

And remember, ATC is not a flight instructor and they screw up.

I once got a holding clearance from a controller near Modesto, CA, USA. The format was wrong and I called him on it a number of times and finally told him we were unable to comply with his holding clearance and demanded that he clarify the clearance (this was shortly after the controller's strike). He gave up and just vectored me for delays.I called him on the land line and told him how he had screwed up the clearance.

There is another thread here about why a direction is included in a holding clearance, it is important that we understand why we do it this way and the friend who crashed into the mountains is why!


Hold south of Bozo VOR on the 182 radial, right turns, 1 minute legs, EFC (the most important part) at 37, time now 18.

[172_driver]

There is another thread here about why a direction is included in a holding clearance, it is important that we understand why we do it this way and the friend who crashed into the mountains is why!


Hold south of Bozo VOR on the 182 radial, right turns, 1 minute legs

I agree, holding instructions can be particularly challenging when single pilot.

In my airline we have an E.F. escape route that takes you to the VOR to pick up the hold "325 inbound, LT" - that's all it says. The way I read it first time was to hold on the 325 radial. My colleague read it as holding on the 145 radial with a 325 inbound track.

Whoever is right or wrong, not sure (probably him).. but the instruction is obviously not clear enough if we read it differently.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Why would the type of entry be relevant to ATC? You would be separated Vertically anyway. They want to know that you have commenced holding. They don't care about your position in the hold>>

Really...? Is that so? Guess you don't fly in busy airspace. Holds don't only separate you vertically from other traffic. In busy airspace traffic at the same level has to be considered too.

[glendalegoon]

Heathrow Director is correct.

There is a holding side, a non holding side (protected side and non protected side) for a reason.

Sometimes that reason, for a non protected side, is air traffic.

Sometimes it is because there is a mountain.

I have a feeling, the children of the magenta line , really are like little monkeys , pull the handle and get the pellet. And they really haven't read up on the subject.

Visualization of holding patterns using either a paper chart or a directional gyro is actually an art and surely weeded many pilots out of the profession.

[BOAC]

And they really haven't read up on the subject. - don't forget in the education process to make sure they know that the 'non-holding' side is also 'protected' out to a certain distance to enable joins?

[Level Attitude]

- don't forget in the education process to make sure they know that the 'non-holding' side is also 'protected' out to a certain distance to enable joins?Exactly - and to allow for errors in flying the hold.

Holds don't only separate you vertically from other traffic. In busy airspace traffic at the same level has to be considered too.Irrespective of the type of join, once over the Fix and Heading Outbound the aircraft will be in the Protected Area of the Hold (indeed the Teardrop and Parallel Joins mean the aircraft will be within the 'standard' Racetrack Pattern).

ATC would like to know that you have remembered that you are to Hold (stay within a certain area) and are not going to fly on miles and miles outbound from the Fix.

Therefore 'Entering the Hold' should be reported the first time over the Fix.

[Level Attitude]

The way I read it first time was to hold on the 325 radial. My colleague read it as holding on the 145 radial with a 325 inbound track.Holds are defined by the Holding Fix, the Inbound Track to the Holding Fix and the Holding side.

I would, therefore, suggest that your colleague was correct and you were wrong.

A Fix could, obviously, be defined as a point (ie DME Distance) on a (VOR) Radial but the inbound Holding Track (QDM) also needs to be specified to know what Hold is required.

[aterpster]

Here's an article I wrote for the ALPA Magazine about ATC instructions for uncharted holding patterns. Although the article was written in the last century :) it is still valid today, at least in the U.S.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/aterpster/unchartedholding_zpsc222e40b.jpg

[glendalegoon]

thanks wally, I read it back then.

I also offer my unofficial reason why RIGHT turns are standard.

Back in the DC3 days, the captain liked the takeoffs and landings and the copilot didn't get the sweetmeats. So when holding came along, the copilot got the hold and he was on the right.

what do you think? ;=)

[aterpster]

glendalegoon:

Back in the DC3 days, the captain liked the takeoffs and landings and the copilot didn't get the sweetmeats. So when holding came along, the copilot got the hold and he was on the right.

what do you think? ;=)

Good as any. :)