Gatwick / UK runway sanding

[RMC]

I fly from Scandinavia a lot where it is common to sand runways for improved braking capability. Have started to fly in LGW but no one I have spoken to has heard of it being done here. Am I speaking to the wrong people or is this not something which happens in the UK.

[mad_jock]

Also most UK runways are grooved.

All runways are kept black even when we both know leaving them white depending on the snow gives a better surface.

Its a completely different mindset when it comes to dealing with snow and low braking actions than scandi land.

They don't have the same level of equipment or for that matter skill in using it.

The few days a year that it does cause problems its deemed more cost effective to shut or severely limit movements than it is to get to the equipment and manning levels to deal with it.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Doesn't the sand cause FOD or is it very fine?

[mad_jock]

Not really its different over there.

Its a lot colder for a start.

They have two types wet sand and hot sand.

Wet sand freezes on the surface layer and then acts as sand paper.

Hot sand melts the ice and then sinks a bit then freezes again giving a sandpaper effect.

The type they use is very dependant on what type of surface they are treating.

They are also a lot more inclined to mange the surface and not treat at all.

ie they will brush the loose but leave a hard packed base.

If it gets to slipperly ie down to 0.25 they may use a chopper to roughen the ice surface up.

You might think management is impossible but when you have boys that know what they are doing they can easily keep the BA in the .30-.35 region with no chemicals or treatments.

And this business of sweeping and ploughing with a couple of mm just doesn't happen. They just say 5mm dry snow can you accept. If you say yes you land on it.

When they do hit the runways to clear them its a form of art.

Helsinki is especially impressive. They have about 5 staggered of each bit of equipment so a line of ploughs, line of brushes and maybe an other line. Followed by two ops vehicles doing a runway inspection. They have a run up area to build up speed and as the last aircraft comes over they hit the runway at speed and belt along the whole length, once at the other end they have a run out area which they slow down in. 2.5k of runway is done in under 4-5mins.

They start practising a month before the snow season starts.

The kit is high powered and well looked after, nothing like the rusty heaps you see at UK airports which normally break down the first day they are put to use and require a spare part from japan or some such place to get them working again.

[mad_jock]

Don't take it that I slagging off Brit runways. They are much better in the wet which is what the majority of the bad wx they have to deal with.

They don't get the same level of constant rain that we get and they have 4-5 months of snow which we don't.

So things have be optimised in both places for the conditions.

Although I would say the UK needs to go and have a visit to learn some of the surface management techniques/ what actually works and is acceptable instead of shutting the runways down for sweeping when they have a bit of spin drift going across them.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

OK Jock.. many thanks for all that. It always was a total nightmare at Heathrow when it got cold!

[mad_jock]

http://youtu.be/Yas5NdrmixU

http://youtu.be/myaH9ClDjW8

You might like these.

Although I would say the finnish are the nutters of the snow clearing world. twice as fast as anywhere else. And the back ends cutting loose on those brushers isn't un-heard of.

I think most UK apron ops types would have nervous break downs just looking at the conditions that aircraft continue operating in over there. BA of 0.1-0.2 are not uncommon on aprons and taxiways.

[RMC]

Thanks for the replies....so are the UK runways only brushed...no treatment at all. Boeing advises that take off should not be attempted on untreated snow if melting is present.

[mad_jock]

They spray them with chemicals.

And when there is a bad spell there is a huge fanny about market in between airports if they haven't bought enough in.

[jangler909]

RMC, exactly where in Scandinavia have you seen sanded runways?

[mad_jock]

Basically anywhere west of Borlanger in Sweden and anywhere north of Tampra in Finland with a few exceptions.

I believe its linked to if the airport has the containment ditches etc. to stop the chemicals going into the ground water.

[west lakes]

Gatwick, yep those really do look like a few rusty old bits of kit as mentioned earlier

I'd say there are as many as at Helsinki!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms8M-9trj6o

And of course those newish model Unimogs are waiting parts from Japan (well they're German)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd1s2yHfNqo

[mad_jock]

:D two airports in the UK have semi decent gear.

Just look at the speed difference with the Fins going at it.

And there kit is more akin to open cast mining equipment. Not a trailer stick on the back of a modified commercial cab.

Different environment different equipment and different skill level.

If the Brits went for it the same as the fins everyone of the drivers would have lost their driving permits for speeding within a morning shift.

[RMC]

As MJ says "Basically anywhere west of Borlanger in Sweden and anywhere north of Tampra in Finland with a few exceptions"

[Chro]

Doesn't the sand cause FOD or is it very fine?

The sand that is used is a very specific diameter that that doesn't harm engines.

I'm working at Arlanda(stockholm) and we very rarely use sand on the runways and when we do it's usually spread before the sweepers to get a better effect from the acutual sweeping.

We do however use it on taxiways and aprons.

I've heard the argument that UK snow whould be diffrent but I can assure you it's not. We in scadinavia have seen pretty much all types of snow and ice. It's all manageble, arlanda still haven't closed due snow.

[Liobian]

RMC - don't forget, too, that some runways have a porous surface to improve drainage. This was laid at one place I worked and MoD banned us from using grit on said surface. Feared it would eventually block the holes but not wash away. Only approved urea-based products IIRC. Don't remember what their plan was for dealing with the biological residue, from all the migrating geese, which also washed into the holes.