View Full Version : Manning of Emeregency Exit row Seats
Terry K Rumble
5th Dec 2014, 08:45
Could I please ask my civilian colleagues what the rules are regarding the manning of emergency exit row seats is?
I have complained aboout this issue before, mainly because I have seen these seats occupied by everyone from an infant to someone who could barely walk, let alone a fit, healthy and relatively strong individual who could comfortably handle the door in an emergency. It has always been a pet hate of mine to find that the most inapropriate people have often been given the seats.
So, could I formally ask you all:
a) What is the CAA advice/instructions on such seats being occupied? and
b) What is the airlines take on all of this?
Last night I was returning from sunny climes and was seated in row 27 of an A321. Row 26 is the Emergency Exit row and seats A, B and C were all unoccupied (it might have had something to do with the airline wanting another £30 per seat)
However, on a more serious note, there was no one in those seats in a position to open the door if the wlorst happened. So I told the nice Stewardess that I was happy and confident in using the emergency exits and would occupy one of the seats. She replied "that will be £30 please Sir" to which I replied that I wouldn't charge the airline £30 if I was needed in an emergency, so I was happy to fill the position free of charge.
This didn't go down too well and the nice lady insisted that I pay £30 or stay in my seat (27C)
I know that the airlines will do anything to make money, (we had a 5 hour 'sellex' from Egypt last night), but come on guys, this is safety isn't it?
I'd be interested to hear from both sidess as to whether on n ot there is any rules or advice on the occupancy of these seats during take off and landing at least?
Kind regards
TKR
Dash8driver1312
5th Dec 2014, 09:09
You will find that someone will be tasked with sitting there should an emergency situation develop. Not useful in case of emergency literally developing on ground, but do you forsee the need to open it in flight?
On my firm, cabin crew will only allow able-bodied adults to sit there, they will check that you are happy to operate the door, and if you are not then you get reseated by someone who is willing.
And the surcharge to sit on the emergency row on the long-range fleet is 50€.
Scinfaxi
5th Dec 2014, 11:30
Can't comment on the regulations/legislation...
But on the airline/airport side of things for airlines we handle...
BE do not charge for seat assignment at check-in so we issue the emergency exits there for free if not already advanced assigned online (£15 I believe for an extra legroom/EXIT seat online) (PINCODE passengers obviously not being allowed to sit in exits) Pregnant Infants Non-English Speakers Children Obese Disabled Elderly). The self-service check-in will not assign exit seats or seats blocked for trim reasons which is a handy bonus. We get the occasional complaint from the cabin crew when we do not assign both 2C and 2D, but that's a rare occasion.
U2 do charge for exit seats and 'upfront' seats both online and at check-in and we are asked to upsell these, but on a 40 minute flight to LPL it's pretty much pointless asking, but we do our best. We also do all the passenger handling manually inc. manual manifest, seat map, bag tags and bingo sheet boarding rather than on the reservations system, and about 95% of the time on the seat map rows 6 backwards are occupied/preassigned and the seats left empty are the EXIT and upfront seats. We are not asked to assign these for free at check-in and it's left to the cabin crew to deal with onboard if we don't manage to upsell any.
4U...much the same as Flybe...except we do manual boarding/manifest/seat map etc, they do charge online for an EXIT seat but it is free at check-in and we are asked to assign these.
tasked with sitting there should an emergency situation develop..............but do you forsee the need to open it in flight? - a strange comment from someone who probably does not understand RTOs and crashes.:ugh:
TKR - you need to follow this up with the CAA I think. The row should not be empty and if it is because it is a 'premium seat' then things need to change in that airline. The crew were stupid to decline your offer. Where I have worked there were strict rules on occupation of these seats - and adhered to.
Was there a crew station at the exit manned during takeoff and landing?
Doors 3 on A321 sometimes have crew stations which are manned for take off and landing.
On U2 over wings are always covered and pax are moved free of charge is nobody has paid to sit there. This is not done on row one as there are two crew stationed there for for takeoff and landing and will operate the doors.
The over wings are self help exits and there's always at least one person sat next to it, hey are briefed and have instructions on seat backs and the door to operate them.
Dash8driver1312
6th Dec 2014, 01:09
BOAC, you are so right, I have literally this second started on a Cessna course...what are these TLAs of which you speak, o wise sky God from whom all wisdom falls.
Don't cherry pick, you condescending bar steward. Include the complete paragraph.
glendalegoon
6th Dec 2014, 01:58
in the usa the over wing and other exit door seats are given out at boarding time and a cursory analysis of the fitness of the passenger to operate the door is made.
onboard, the flight attendants give a quick briefing and offer a change of seats if the person is unable to use the doors.
what are these TLAs of which you speak
RTO - Rejected Take Off (a ground emergency)
TKR - Terry K Rumble - the OP - sorry, Original Poster
CAA - Civil Aviation Authority
Terry K Rumble
6th Dec 2014, 12:32
Thank you all for your comments.
It has been a long standing concern of mine how the civilian world seem quite happy to place completely unsuitable pax in positions of significant importance on an aircraft and I do genuinely worry that when push comes to shove, they will be unable to fulfil the duties that go with their seating location.
I do feel that if someone offers to perform these safety duties for an airline, then to decline that offer (even at the expense of £30) displays a clear disregard for pax safety. And if that means that I question the ability of the little 90 year old lady's suitability for her occupancy of an exit seat, then so be it, I have no qualms about doing so. At the end of the day, the airline is asking me (and hundreds of others) to put my life in her hands, and that cannot be right.
Thanks once again for your comments, I might just take it up with the CAA.
Kindest regards
TKR
Was the exit manned during take off and landing? If so then there is no need to have pax sat there and that is likely to be why they won't let anyone sit there. U2 and LS (that I know of) won't let people sit in row one without people paying as there is no need as the exits are both manned
Terry K Rumble
6th Dec 2014, 13:22
The seats were empty for both take off and landing. Seats 26 A, B and C were all empty for the entire flight
Sorry, I meant was there a flight attendant station opposite the door?
Terry K Rumble
6th Dec 2014, 13:54
No.
There was a flight attendant station opposite 26F which was occupied. 26Dwas also occupied but A,B,C,E and F were unoccupied
jackieofalltrades
6th Dec 2014, 14:51
a strange comment from someone who probably does not understand RTOs and crashes. :ugh:
My thoughts exactly. I'm sure there's nowhere in the checklist for an aborted take off "Do we have a person sat in the emergency exit row able to open the door, otherwise we need someone to move there before we slam on the brakes and reverse thrusters."
My understanding, albeit without an actual link to the legislation, was that there had to be an able bodied person capable of opening the emergency exit sat by each for all taxiing, take-offs and landings. An airline could not forego having somebody sat there for want of payment.
Yes, jackie - can you imagine the PA by the c/crew after the aircraft has slid to a crumpled smoking heap on the grass after an abort?
"Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls in the middle of the aircraft - please remain seated. Would Mr Dash8driver1312 kindly make his way to seat 26A and open the exit so we can get the **** out of here?"An airline could not forego having somebody sat there for want of payment. - it would appear some may do, hence my suggestion to TKR to follow this up, which I hope he does.
TKR - forgive my reference to the Daily Wail, but you may wish to read this (2012). You will note the CAA 'rubber teeth' in evidence again:ugh:
Safety probe into Ryanair £10 charge for emergency exit seats | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117452/Safety-probe-Ryanair-10-charge-emergency-exit-seats.html)
Terry K Rumble
6th Dec 2014, 16:42
BOAC
Thank you for the reference. It is interesting that the CAA chose to 'discuss' the matter with the airline and I concur with your 'rubber teeth' response.
I shall continue to offer my services (free of charge of course!) to any airline that would like me to, but the safety aspect does concern me. I think I'm right in believing that the Captain is ultimately responsible for the safety of everyone on board his aircraft and therefore I wonder why it is not part of the FRC's?
I would hate for a Captain to be found culpable of manslaughter (or whatever the Lawyers would say) simply because his Chairman put a few pounds before pax safety.
Kind regards
Terry
I think I'm right in believing that the Captain is ultimately responsible for the safety of everyone on board his aircraft and therefore I wonder why it is not part of the FRC's? - you are correct ('Ops Manual' in civvy street), BUT airline policy is what guides the 'Captain', leaving an interesting dichotomy between being (ANO) RESPONSIBLE for safety etc, but being REQUIRED to operate IAW company policy.
We ex DanAirs hit this in BA, where cabin crew were NOT required to check the supply of lifejackets per seat for each sector (as with DanAir - they got 'borrowed' by amateur sailoring pax- ljs, not c/c....:)) but it was moved to a cyclical engineering 'function' (I think every 3 months) which, due to a computer up-cock in engineering resulted in the early 2000's in an LHR Airbus flying for several weeks with two rows of seats - 12 pax - with NO lj's, since new seats had been fitted but no ljs provisioned - and, of course, no-one checked. I got into 'difficulties' with BA management over this and the Captain's responsibility and in a written reply, the department of rubber teeth told me to follow company procedures. So, 'responsible'?? 'I voss only following orders':rolleyes:
You'll love it out there...........
jackieofalltrades
6th Dec 2014, 18:18
Like you BOAC, I offer my services free of charge once on the aeroplane. Several times I've been moved there, other times they've found some sucker with money burning a hole in their pocket.
CAP789 sates:
Passengers likely to assist evacuation. Only those persons who appear reasonably fit and strong should be seated adjacent to self-help (type III and type IV) exits. So only able bodied persons should be sat there.
Doors 2/3 are type one doors and will be easy to operate as you simply need to life a handle, there will likely be power assist and an automatically deploying slide. The vestibule area is wide too and will allow for a much faster evacs.
Compare that to the over wings which can fiddly, heavy, and need to come inwards before they're thrown outwards and weigh around 16 kg. They are also within a fairly narrow area for people to get through and therefore it is important these be manned by suitable individuals.
Likely doors 2/3 are extremely easy and quick to use and requires minimum force when armed therefore there's no need to get anyone next to them as having someone sat next to it would only be marginally quicker than someone sat a few rows away. Let's face it, if it hit the fan people would be at the exits within a couple of seconds.
A321 doors are type 1 and then I don't see any risk involved with doors 2/3 being unoccupied however the over wing hatch type doors definitely do. I can't find any guidance material that states non type 3/4 type doors must be occupied.
I suppose every airline will have its own policy, but it would be interesting to see any official reference.
Additionally,nits not fair on the passenger who paid to sit there if people can just sit there for free. It may seem poor customer service to deny a volunteer to sit at the exit but it would also be much worse for the person who paid, when you sit there for free. I know I would.
Dash8driver1312
7th Dec 2014, 21:25
Y....Not useful in case of emergency literally developing on ground...
;.
Just wishing BOAC was able to read more than abbreviations. But at his age...Try reading instead of cherry-picking.
No need to take this up with the CAA.
On the A321 doors 3 are manned by Cabin Crew seated on the crewseat on the DEF side. Perfectly legal and happens frequently.
The question, then, is is it acceptable to have an overwing exit that cannot be opened by said crew in the crush of an evacuation 'cos having opened 'their' exit they will not get across the aisle to the other. All for the sake of trying to 'grab' money off the punters.:mad:
It seems to me that if an 'overwing' row remains empty ('un-bought') at boarding the 'dosh' is lost anyway, so why not move an AB there in the interests of, heaven forbid, passenger and crew safety rather than profit?
FR and U2 already do that.
Just a technicality but Doors 3 on an A321 is not overwing!
You can't realy comare it to FR or U2 as they don't operate the A321 so all their aircraft have overwing exits.
On the A321 there is also only one member of cabin crew in the Front Galley and at Doors 2 to operate the doors in case of emergency. How do you suggest to solve the issue of having a pax closer to R1 when there is a bloody big galley in the way?
.....and a good 'technical point' too! I can see I was misled by some of the posters into assuming these were passenger operated doors. They should, I assume, be operated by crew, so the question of who 'mans' these doors is still valid since I would have assumed there should be crew cover - or have the accountants won again?
Terry K Rumble
11th Dec 2014, 12:06
I am grateful to you all for your comments, thank you. I do however still have concerns over this issue and the manning of emergecncy exit seats in general.
CEJM Whilst I bow to your superior knowledge of the A321 and probably every other civilian aircraft, I simply do not understand your apparaent cavalier attitude to the manning of the doors. I think we would all agree that the doors are there for a reason, and therefore not manning them, for ANY reason, but especially one regarding lack of payment, shows an unacceptable level of safety towards the pax. Infact, in my opinion, it is an unacceptable lack of safety, bordering on negligence frankly.
I still remember the Manchester 737 (I think) that caught fire on the runway and I have had a ground evacuation and seen at first hand the sheer panic, terror and total pandemonium that occurs, and this was for a precautionary evacuation. God only knows what it would have been like if the aircraft had actually been on fire.
My personal opinion is that, apart from moaning at the CAA (which I doubt will do any good) there is little that you can do other than complain at the time and ultimately boycott the airline in question. It is one of the reasons why I won't fly with some of the big Asian airlines, apart from their general safety record.
I'm afraid that any airline who thinks that £30.00 for a seat is more important that passenger lives (and lets face it, that's what we are talking about here) should NOT be in the aviation business at all, and should have their operators licence withdrawn.
That's it. rant over! A very Merry christmas to you all and all good wishes for a safe and Peacful 2015.
(ps, the Airline was Monarch if you hadn't already guessed!)
INeedTheFull90
11th Dec 2014, 13:39
Just to play Devils advocate, airlines have been doing this for at least 20 years. Either you pay to sit at the exits or you must have status. I've not seen any evidence of airlines I fly with who don't have passengers sat by the over wing hatch type exits. And pax are shifted gratis as as and when needed.
Furthermore I don't see any evidence of safety being compromised by not having passengers sat by the easy/quick access exits but this is not the case with the over wing hatch types so your comment about an airline who charges to sit there going out of business is a bit odd to say the least.
What about the flag carriers who will only allow gold/silver/emerald/diamand/beige/whatever members to sit there whilst those who don't have a club card are stuck in the normal seats? Shal we shut them down too?
And lets be honest, you offered to sit there so you could stretch your legs NOT so that you can help operate said door. :ugh:
ShyTorque
11th Dec 2014, 18:21
I flew back from the Med this summer on a "loco" airline and sat behind the centre fuselage emergency exit row. It became immediately obvious that the female passengers in those seats were extremely nervous about flying at all and were the worse for drink.
At the time I though to myself that irrespective of who sits in those emergency exit seats, if a dire enough situation arises and I get there before the £10 extra legroom pax get that door open, they will get all the help they need. They will probably get helped out, too.