Question about SRAs

[FlyingForFun]

I'm looking at this approach (http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-8D95C91DCB5A8EE3BD0966DD19F929D4/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/AD/AIRAC/EG_AD_2_EGHH_8-7_en_2014-06-26.pdf) - a SRA terminating at 2nm, with a misses approach point at 1nm.

I notice that the plate has timing from the termination of the approach to the missed approach point. But would the controller provide the pilot with guidance as to when he reaches the missed approach point? Or would the controller stop giving guidance at the termination point, and expect the pilot to time to the missed approach point?

Thanks!

FFF
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[ZOOKER]

FlyingForFun,
many years since I did one, but at 2 miles it was always "continue approach or go-around at your discretion".
Why not give EGHH ATC a call? I'm sure they will be delighted to help, (if of course you don't get an answer here).
SRA's were very satisfying to do.

[chevvron]

Doing a PAR to touchdown was satisfying too. My effort is occasionally seen on Discovery in a film about the Challenger 604 bizjet. I think it's been edited though, as when I say 'radar touchdown NOW', you see a puff of smoke from the tyres!!

[Talkdownman]

I notice that the plate has timing from the termination of the approach to the missed approach point. But would the controller provide the pilot with guidance as to when he reaches the missed approach point? Or would the controller stop giving guidance at the termination point, and expect the pilot to time to the missed approach point?

I can't figure out the reason for locating the MAPt after the RTR. The RTR is 2nm therefore radar azimuth guidance terminates at 2nm. Thereafter the pilot is on his/her own navigation to the MAPt without any FAT guidance whilst diverging from the nominal GP at a critical stage of flight and losing energy management options. The pilot is therefore 'in limbo' for that one mile.

Why is it necessary for the published MAPt not to be coincident with the RTR?

[FlyingForFun]

Zooker - I'm hoping to get something I can point other people towards. But if I can't get an answer here then yes, I'll do that - at least I'll get an answer myself, even if I can't show anyone else. I'd guess that this isn't the only approach like this though, so there must be a standard answer?

Chevvron - I've only ever flown a PAR once, never heard of doing one to touchdown but that sounds scary/cool! And I like the edit!

Talkdownman - very true, but that's the way it is, so I'm just trying to understand what's there, not why it's there! For the last couple of years, it would have been mandatory to fly the approach as a CDFA, and go around at a DA that's at or just above the published MDA if you reached that before the missed approach point, so that would probably allay most of your fears. But it still doesn't explain why it was designed this way.

[BDiONU]

I am pretty certain I'm not the only Military/ExMil controller who, having done many 100's of PARs, when the weather was 'dodgy' called 'Passing Decision Height' to have the pilot come back, in that tense voice 'keep talking!'

[chevvron]

MOD(PE) (later called DPA) air traffic units were authorised to carry out talkdowns using PAR to touchdown provided specific circumstances were met. At other MOD airfields, they could be done in emergency or simulated emergency.
On the occasion shown on the Discovery programme, I was unaware it was being filmed (otherwise I would have terminated at DH) and I've never received any royalties!!

[FantomZorbin]

BDiONU
As you say, Sir, you are not alone!!!

[spekesoftly]

Some large UK civil airports no longer offer SRAs. I think the logic being that with multiple ground aids (ILS, VOR/DME etc) and modern aircraft kit the likelyhood of an SRA is too small, and the controllers would also find it very difficult to stay proficient. However, I do recall one such airport accepting an urgent medivac RAF SAR helicopter for an SRA because it was not equipped for any other type of instrument approach, and the weather was very poor. The ATCO concerned had not done SRAs for many years, but I'm pleased to report that the helicopter landed safely from its first approach.

[OhNoCB]

Is a controller permitted to do an SRA if they haven't done one for many years?

Genuine question as I have more than once been asked if we could accept an SRA for controller training and I always assumed they would need to do them now and again to remain signed off for them.

[ZOOKER]

spekesoftly,
When EGCC approach went from flouride tubes to processed radar, (NODE-M), the SRA facility was removed. Other airfields continue to do them using processed displays. EGPF still has a requirement for u/t ATCOs to carry out SRAs and, I believe remain proficient post-validation.
For many years, we kept a log-book at 'CC with a list of SRA 'runs' undertaken by individual ATCOs. For validation, we had to do 25 on each of the 2 approach radar systems we had, a Marconi S264H and a Plessey/Cossor 4011. Great times indeed.
Many Cessnas from EGCB came and did practice runs with us.

[spekesoftly]

Is a controller permitted to do an SRA if they haven't done one for many years?I'm not up-to-date with current UK SRG rules, but at my last unit prior to retirement, I think we had to do a minimum of two SRAs per year, one of which had to be assessed by an OJTI. This was to retain currency post validation, and generally we tried to do more, perhaps at least one a month.

Obviously the situation I described earlier was exceptional, safety of life etc, and I expect the pilot was made aware of the circumstances when he requested the SRA as his only option.


PS - Zooker, thanks for the info. Your man did well! ;)

[ShyTorque]

One of most bizarre radio exchanges I heard was at Kai Tak. The eye of a typhoon had just passed directly through the harbour and so there was a sudden wind reversal, meaning that the runway was changed from 13 to 31. There was a stack of aircraft waiting to have another attempt at an approach, many had already diverted because at one stage all were going around due to the horrendous crosswind.

After the runway change, the first aircraft was vectored round to begin the ILS, only for ATC to inform the crew that there would be a delay because the localiser wouldn't come on line. ATC then offered the crew a PAR instead. This seemed to confuse the crew, who eventually said they weren't equipped to carry out a PAR and went around and back into the stack! I've often wondered what equipment they thought they needed, other than the radio they were already talking on.

[Talkdownman]

On a similar 'Bizarre-Level' recently had an aircraft filed in, but wx not too good so informed company before departure that 'radar out of service'. Reply was 'Oh, we'll come and have a look anyway…'. Confirmed on initial contact that Radar out of service. After several approach attempts crew asked 'any chance of an SRA?'. Reminded crew yet again that 'radar out of service'. The penny then dropped 'Ah, right…' (thinks...'so that's what the 'R' means'…)

[chevvron]

I think the currency requirement at my unit was 3xSRA/month, but it's 6 years ago so I may be wrong. Certainly when we had PAR it was 6/month. My old unit is one which asks pilots doing practice iaps if they can accept an SRA for 'controller training'.

[almost professional]

At EGNX for UCE it's 6 per year with 2 assessed by LCE, some can be done on the Sim, and both ends also

[OhNoCB]

Someone I used to work with who trained at one of the sausage machine integrated schools was once positioning an aircraft and had some interesting failures along the way which killed both nav boxes. The weather wasn't good and he asked for help and was offered an SRA, which he declined thinking he didn't have the kit required and ending up doing a no compass no gyro instead.

[Helen49]

Couldn't help being amused one day [many moons ago]. One of the local airline DOs, who was in the habit of listening in to the half mile SRAs, asked why we always informed the pilot that it would be 'standard mist approach procedure'?

H49

[360BakTrak]

Oh how I miss giving no-compass no-gyro 1/2nm SRA's on a ****ty primary radar! :eek::E

[Talkdownman]

No you don't, 360. Anyway, you had the luxury of a 430, I have to do NCNG on a 424...

[mgahan]

Try being the GCA instructor on FPN36 in the shoulder period during the introduction of the (then) new digital technology phased array equipment. This meant the instructor had to do all the manipulation in the trays while the stud just did the talk down.

"Talk to him ...2 1/2 miles - 750 feet... don't worry about what I'm doing down there..."

Much more fun than reviewing long term CNS/ATM strategic plans.

[360BakTrak]

Alas no sarcasm smiley TDM......anyway, surely a 424 is cutting edge technology for a man of your vintage!:E:}

[Talkdownman]

424 is about as 'cutting edge' as flint...

(360, a beer next time in UK..)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

SRA recency was taken seriously at Heathrow. One supervisor, recently arrived at the unit, took it so seriously that one morning he had the ILS turned off so we had to do them all morning!

[obwan]

I really must spring to defend the reputation of the 424, an elderly machine indeed, but very accurate in the hands of a skilled operator.:D

[TCAS FAN]

obwan

I'm with you, my record 43 1/2 mile SRAs in one "day radar" 13 1/2 hour shift, eating my sandwiches in the black hole between going into continuous transmission for the last five miles of the approach - the joys of the job before some b***er invented SRATCOH!

[chevvron]

We've talked about recency, but for those who don't know, in the UK you need to do 50 SRA's as part of your MER for an initial C of C, and 25 for a subsequent one at another unit.

[Loki]

Sadly all the SRAs I ever did were on a souped up 264 (2 milers)....still quite satisfying though. Last one I gave was in the early Autumn of 1983 to an Air Ecosse Bandeirante....ho hum.

[running dog]

For my sins I've done 1 milers on a 424 and a 430, 2 milers on watchman and a new digital.

As a talking ILS you couldn't beat the 424 as long as the aircraft followed the correct slope otherwise it fell out of the beam and had to be sent round for another go.

Usual routine was - standard SRA, standard with step downs, no compass no gyro, ncng with step downs and if that didn't work go somewhere else!!

Ah! Those were the days! I can still hear the whine of the frequency converter!!

[Talkdownman]

Oi, running dog, what's all this 'past tense'?
Some of us are still doing it...

[chevvron]

You could beat the 424 by using a PAR.
Mind you, when Farnborough had a localiser installed (didn't fit the glidepath initially as the thresholds were due to be moved) I made sure it was set up so that the QDM of the localiser was co-incident with the PAR centreline thus enabling the pilots to fly a 'hybrid' LLZ/DME approach but with GP information passed by the talkdown controller down to half a mile ie a pilot interpreted ground controlled approach.(but I didn't tell you that).

[running dog]

Sorry Talk down man!

Still do 2 milers on a digital radar but the 424 is DEFINITELY in my past!

The thought of the 400hz whine still sets my pulse racing. Will I be able to find the moving dot amongst all the still ones? Will he stay in the beam? Will the map stay erect? Etc,etc!!

Lovely!!!