Night flying

[mary meagher]

Now is the perfect time of year to do some night flying....practice, get the rating. There will be clear weather, crisp cold air from the Northwest, your power plane incorporates a heater! if you are equipped with the night rating you can make full use of your UK license in North America. It is also simply beautiful flying at night.

Perhaps others can suggest a good place in the UK to fly at night?

[thing]

Now is the perfect time of year to do some night flying

Pedant mode/I thought any time of year was fine for night flying? As long as it's night?...:)/pedant mode off.

[stevelup]

Yes, but in our wonderfully backward country, most airfields close long before it gets dark throughout most of the year!

[thing]

Don't know, lucky enough to fly from two that don't...:}

[ChickenHouse]

Do you also have this strange concept of magically disappearing airfields at sunset in the UK? I was flying in continental Europe for a while and was always surprised to see airfields legally "vanishing" when sun sets ...

[7of9]

I think it's good that if your home airfield is military or regional airport that it stays open long enough for you to get night flying in.
When I was a member of another airfield, staff needed paying to stay late, if there wasn't enough pilots wanting to fly, it didn't pay to have the fire crew or radio operator remain after their usual finishing time.
I love to fly at night, but I can only do it at weekends, my work stops me night flying during the week, the weather doesn't always permit this! So still waiting to go up this season.

[mary meagher]

Do tell us about these two airfields where you fly that don't shut down at night in the UK?

[7of9]

Mary, they are military airfields which would cost you & I a mortgage to land at?

[thing]

Mary, they are military airfields which would cost you & I a mortgage to land at?

The gentleman may be correct. Hi Trev.

[LAI]

Oxford is open 0630 - 2230, 7 days a week now. Quite useful if you fancy a bit of night flying :ok:

[thing]

Gamston is open until 1800 every day, chance to get a couple of hours of night trundling in at this time of year.

[maehhh]

If this complacent and backward country was a little more open to flying at night (just open those damn uncontrolled airfields 24/7 as they do in Australia or in the US!) I'd have an aircraft with a chute and would probably fly at night most of the time. I just love it and it fits very well with my working hours.

Sadly this is never going to happen. :{

[ShyTorque]

Airfields open at night? Who needs airfields?

[gemma10]

Been there, Done it. Didnt enjoy it.

[MrAverage]

Elstree until 8pm Tuesdays and Wednesdays. Sometimes possible on other days at greater cost.....................

[piperboy84]

My recent night flying induced a considerable amount of ass pucker. Flew down from the grass strip at Forfar on Sunday to visit a friend at Strathven, ended up leaving later than planned and got wheels up at 3.55pm for the 80 mile flight home, light started fading fast after Glasgow. The route takes me past the extended centerline of Dundee where the fully lit up runway was extremely tempting but decided to push on the final 14 miles. I did check in with Dundee on passing to enquire as to the closing time which was 9pm so I knew I had an option. The light really faded fast thereafter and turning final
at the home field the only thing I could make out was the loch and trees that run parallel to the strip but not the landing zone itself, so it was full flaps in, trimmed right back to 1.2 of VSo then clinched my ass cheeks and waited,,,, best landing I've done in months ! :ok:

[Cusco]

Is 'ass pucker' the US equivalent of 'ring twitter'?

Cusco ;)

[On Track]

Why would your airports close just because it's night?

[9 lives]

I can think of two airports near Toronto which close late at night, but that's not because it's night, but rather to keep the neighbours happy with no noise after 11PM. All the other airports I can think of are either always open, or have ARCAL lights, so you open it yourself.

Here at home, my wife turns on the runway lights when I text her. I quite enjoy night flying, though I don't make a habit of really long night cross countries any more, unless it's a beauty night over a relatively populated area.

[thing]

Why would your airports close just because it's night?

Maybe because people who have been working there all day might want to go home?

[Tinstaafl]

In Oz & the US you don't need anyone at the field to be able or allowed to use it. PAL/PCL or HN lights are usually available. Also don't need ATC (or FISO if approved as an alternative by the CAA) at the airfield for instrument approaches.

[thing]

I think the main issue here is noise what with not being able to fly for more than a minute in any direction without being over some town or vilage.

[Pirke]

All you people have luxury problems... In The Netherlands night VFR is simply not allowed. We have to be home before dark :(

[Rhino25782]

All you people have luxury problems... In The Netherlands night VFR is simply not allowed. We have to be home before dark :(

... or land at your friendly airfield with a Flugleiter across the border. :)

Is NVFR going to remain banned in NL after SERA becomes effective (which would be tomorrow, as a matter of fact)?

[Pirke]

Is NVFR going to remain banned in NL after SERA becomes effective (which would be tomorrow, as a matter of fact)?

I've heard of several changes, but NVFR was not one of them. The AIC also makes no mention of it: http://www.aopa.nl/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/EH-eAIC-2014-07-A.pdf

[PA28181]

All you people have luxury problems... In The Netherlands night VFR is simply not allowed. We have to be home before dark

Nl & UK are in EASA land? so when the UK changed the rules for night from IFR to VFR to allow everyone to carry on as before, why didn't it happen for all those covered by EASA or are we just claiming an exemption?

[Pirke]

Aren't there more exceptions than rules in EASA?

It has probably something to do with all the big mountains here in NL, the government doesn't want to risk us flying into them...

[funfly]

Airfields open at night? Who needs airfields?

Lysanders used to do it a lot but I do think that runway illumination of some sort is a distinct advantage.

You need a number of men in black leather coats carrying flaming torches and a heroine carrying a torch with a red/green piece of gelatine.

[FleurDeLys]

North of Scotland is a wonderful place for night flying (training and just for the pleasure of it). Inverness (Dalcross) with access to lots of uncontrolled airspace and uncomplaining neighbours and, frequently, unrestricted visibility under spectacular starlit skies. Oh, and it gets dark early too!

[ShyTorque]

Lysanders used to do it a lot but I do think that runway illumination of some sort is a distinct advantage. You need a number of men in black leather coats carrying flaming torches and a heroine carrying a torch with a red/green piece of gelatine.

We're lucky if we get a car with its hazard lights on.

[B19]

Funny you post winter is best time to fly at night.


I would like to fly nights but the geography were I live is not good for that. Airport (PAJN) is open 24 hours controlled 6:00am to 10:00pm with runway lights that are turned on by radio.


Airport is at sea level and mountains rise to 4 to 10 thousand feet all the way down the coast. South East Alaska has unforgiving terrain. No real place to ditch if you have to, rocky shore lines, and steep mountain's.


Summer on a full moon is best here. Daylight 18+ hours, Winter OK with full moon, but it rains/snows so much that there is normally a cloud layer that hangs close to mountain's.


Enjoy your night flying it is few and far between were I live.:)

B19 Sport 1974

[londonblue]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there no such thing as a night rating? Isn't it a night qualification?


Pedantry aside, as part of "operation get my SEP rating back" (which starts with an instructor at 1400 this afternoon) I intend to do some night flying. Even though it isn't a rating in that I have to renew it, I haven't flown at night for nearly 10 years so I want to spend a few hours with an instructor before I fly by myself at night again...

[stevelup]

It used to be a rating, then it was a qualification, now it's a rating again:)

[On Track]

Well it depends where you live.

In Australia it's a Night VFR rating. To qualify you have to do a cross-country flight test at night and -- Australia being what it is -- that usually means flying over plenty of dark landscapes.

You also have to demonstrate proficiency with navaids (for track keeping) and my NVFR is endorsed NDB and VOR. There was no GPS in those days.

No doubt some of the requirements may have changed since I did mine many years ago. At the moment I'm not current for night flying but I used to find it most enjoyable.

I believe that once upon a time a NVFR rating was known as a Class 4 instrument rating. I have no idea what was meant by Class 1, 2, 3....

[piperboy84]

What areas of training are involved in the "night qualification" is it half assed instrument training or just "large dark object creeping up your line of vision and obscuring the lights = bad, large dark object falling away revealing more lights on the ground = good" ?

[Steve6443]

In my (new) EASA licence, it's actually entered as a rating so yes, it is a rating and not a qualification, as far as EASA goes.

With regards training, I think every flight school will do it slightly differently, when I did mine, we first spent an hour on ground school, discussed things such as human factors as it pertains to eyesight, especially the impact of fixing your sight on a stationary point, loss of night vision due to hypoxia or sudden bright lights (Pax taking flash pictures), legal requirements for a night flight, filing IFR flight plans, the black hole phenomena - in particular when flying to NVFR airfield with nominal lighting - and so forth.

Then the obligatory circuit training - 5 with the instructor, 5 solo (always full stop, no touch and go) followed by night navigation which basically covered VOR radials and the like (no NDBs cos there weren't any in the area) and a 3 hour cross country flight.

Was good fun and I'm hoping New Year's Eve will be a good night for flying, the moon will be nearly full and I'm planning to fly above the Ruhr Valley, videoing the fireworks going off below.....

[B19]

When I got my license almost 20 years ago it was simply 1 hour flight time, 3 full stop landings and some ground instruction. To remain current you do 3 full stop landings every 90 days. Sounds like the rules are a little more lax in the U.S. vs. Europe.


Have fun:)

[Skeeve]

"To remain current you do 3 full stop landings every 90 days. Sounds like the rules are a little more lax in the U.S. vs. Europe."

For keeping the rating current, EASA is more lenient than the FAA.
For EASA you need 3 full stop landings, ONE of them must be at night.
FCL.060(b)(2)(i)
Or NONE at all if holding an IR rating: FCL.060(b)(2)(ii)

FAA: ALL of the three take-off and landings must be at night, and no credit for IR.

And to be even more clear: That only applies for carrying passengers.
Flying solo at night has NO currency requirements (FAA or EASA).

[Level Attitude]

filing IFR flight plans, the black hole phenomena - in particular when flying to NVFR airfield Just curious why you are being taught how to file IFR Flight Plans for a VFR qualification?

[B19]

Wow, thought the U.S. was more lenient. As I stated on an earlier post we don't fly to much at night around here unless the conditions a real good. When I lived in the lower 48 I flew nights and really enjoyed it. We once took pictures of fireworks in Chicago along Lake Michigan on New Years. Flying in South Dakota at night was fun. No GPS in those days just VOR and ADM, and a map of course. Landing light burned out one time, that was interesting.


Have a good one
:)

[Steve6443]

Just curious why you are being taught how to file IFR Flight Plans for a VFR qualification?

Because the German ATC will reject any NVFR flight plans which are not filed using IFR way points......

Re currency: IF the passenger to be flown is in possession of a valid pilot's licence for the machine and type of flying to be flown, any pilot, even if non current, can take such a pilot with him flying as a passenger.

The background to the currency rule, at least from a german point of view, is to allow passengers some sort of certainty about the abilities of the pilot and the risks involved in flying. A PPL licence holder can judge these risks for himself.

[Binners93]

Just completed my night rating at Shoreham - most fun I've had in the air so far :ok:

[londonblue]

Sounds like I'm out of date.


I wish they'd make their minds up!

[Above The Clouds]

After around 600+ hours at night flying single engine aircraft in very inhospitable places around the planet I really do not see what the attraction is, with two engines yes a little more safety agreed but night VFR :confused:

[Mach Jump]

Re currency: IF the passenger to be flown is in possession of a valid pilot's licence for the machine and type of flying to be flown, any pilot, even if non current, can take such a pilot with him flying as a passenger.


Do you have that in writing from the LBA?

I don't think the UK CAA's interpretation is so lax, and the LBA also has a track record of adopting the most onerous interpretation of the rules.

Anyone who can't be designated as 'crew' is a passenger, and therefore the pilot is subject to the currency rule.


MJ:ok:

[Steve6443]

Re currency: IF the passenger to be flown is in possession of a valid pilot's licence for the machine and type of flying to be flown, any pilot, even if non current, can take such a pilot with him flying as a passenger.
Do you have that in writing from the LBA?

I don't think the UK CAA's interpretation is so lax, and the LBA also has a track record of adopting the most onerous interpretation of the rules.

Anyone who can't be designated as 'crew' is a passenger, and therefore the pilot is subject to the currency rule.


MJ

Not in writing but I've discussed this with LBA inspectors in person as they were ramp checking aircraft at my home field. I asked for clarification about the rules as they, the LBA inspectors, believe them to be and they told us - a few fellow pilots were listening in by that time - that currency should be seen as a safety net for those non-pilots who wish to fly.

Their thinking is that someone who hasn't flown - well, taken off and landed 3 times - in the preceding 90 days could be a serious risk, for himself and his passengers. A pilot can assess those risks, but a non pilot can't.......

So, even if a Pilot with valid licence / rating sat in the back of an aircraft and flew with a non current PPL, the flight would still be legal. The issue is less of the non flying pilot being able to step in if things went pear shape, more that the non flying pilot can better evaluate the risks.......

[cumulusrider]

Night flying_ try a glider!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XXfLcN9r3U

[ChickenHouse]

Just curious why you are being taught how to file IFR Flight Plans for a VFR qualification?

Very simple, FIS INFORMATION commonly closes around SS+30 in these countries allowing NVFR and you will be handled by RADAR during night. RADAR is used to handle IFR & Airliners, so you are on one frequency with heavy metal - and you will be treated equal, Hosiannah! FPL is mandatory für NVFR (almost?) everywhere it is allowed and the instruction for FPL@18 RMK/N VFR-NIGHT states a reporting point compliant with standard routing every 30 minutes. If you try to use VFR waypoints, FPL may pass i.e. Eurocontrol, but you will find out on the second call, that the controller does not know VFR and guides you through IFR waypoints. You could insist you are VFR-NIGHT, but will confuse controller and after a short while, you give up and follow the IFR-light behavior.

[mary meagher]

Cumulus rider, amazing film of Guy Westgate flying over Lasham with fireworks strapped to his wings! from a 4,000' airtow, I suspect...loops.all the way down to his landing!

Once upon a time at twilight I took up a youngster on his 21st birthday....from WAP, over High Wycombe. Those of us who fly gliders know that cities simply OOOOOZE warm air in the evenings....and warm air rises, and so did we, until well after dark! I was quite happy to do so, having just secured my UK night rating...and my plan B, if I couldn't see the ground on the gliding side of operations, figured I would plonk down on the power runway, which was nicely lit. And as it came to pass, the ambient lights reflected from the overcast and made the loom of the grass on the glider side Ok, landing no problem at all, even without cars lined up with their lights on!

The wierdest thing and I never noticed it before, was that the instruments (not exactly the latest) in the K13 ..... glowed in the dark!

[cumulusrider]

Guy westgates display was done at dusk, so not "night" under the legal definition. Lasham did some proper night flying last december in a Bocian. It is the only glider as far as we know that is approved for night flying and is fitted with nav lights.. The runway was lit with £250 worth of lights and batteries from Poundland.
Lasham members Gordon MacDonald, Colin Watt & Patrick Naegeli all took to the skies in their specially prepared Bocian E glider.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/s851x315/1551634_760184237342512_1756362280_n.jpg?oh=32c11e38c5e4e683 cb5e1cc1a3db8f8e&oe=55094409&__gda__=1426769728_e5bbe2061d73ea6607e2486488c529bc





(https://www.facebook.com/lashamgliding/photos/ms.c.eJw1z9ERAyAIA9CNegEMwf0Xawvi3zsxEiWsjofiOM0~;Gtv4rNVGPf 8OcI3rCKRYkXuvtm8e0ba7Vr8~;fBbasfNl~;3nV5leO4~;mO1Y7ymwr3jDs OcIyZJ~;Kfj~;v2o~;V~_4vuP0~;9sf04fbR8G~_31q8zH5~;AJmd0Ci.bps .a.760184110675858.1073741850.154728621221413/760184237342512/?type=1)

[Mach Jump]

Their thinking is that someone who hasn't flown - well, taken off and landed 3 times - in the preceding 90 days could be a serious risk, for himself and his passengers. A pilot can assess those risks, but a non pilot can't.......


Although this seems a logical and sensible point of view, it is in conflict with the letter of the rule, and I would want it in writing from the LBA before relying on it.


MJ:ok:

[ShyTorque]

Lasham did some proper night flying last december in a Bocian. It is the only glider as far as we know that is approved for night flying and is fitted with nav lights. The runway was lit with £250 worth of lights and batteries from Poundland.


A question: A pilot of a powered aircraft sees the "nav lights" of a glider. The rules of the air state that he must give way to a glider. However, in the dark, because he is observing "conventional" navigation lights (rather than the alternative of a single red) he will assume it is a powered machine because there is no way of knowing otherwise unless he can see the aircraft itself and recognise it for what it is. If he is on the glider's right, he will expect the glider to give way to him. Obviously, the rules require him to hold a steady course.....

Presumably, glider pilots using "conventional" navigation lights will take this into consideration, especially so because these nights(!), gliders are so seldom encountered.

[mary meagher]

Night is defined as being half an hour after sunset in the UK.....

A rigid bureacratic definition for a condition in these latitudes that is variable, to say the least! In December, the sun sneaks around the sky at very low level. In June it hardly disappears at all. If the weather is crap, night comes quickly. Several times, when retrieving a glider from an outlanding, while slowly increasing height to keep the glider stable on the long aerotow, it comes as rather a shock to realise that it is getting awfully dark down there! Did anyone happen to find out what time was sunset today? errr.....umm... seem to have overlooked that detail.

Gliders that are pushing the boundaries of night flying from their local airfield will stay local....thermals are scarce after dark. On one occasion the neighbouring helicopter operation, not receiving any answer from their radio call (training gliders seldom carry radios), proceeded boldly straight across the gliding field and caused consternation to the gliders in the circuit. Apologies all around.

Also possible that a glider could be sliding in late and low from a field retrieve. Best to keep well clear.

[Level Attitude]

Just curious why you are being taught how to file IFR Flight Plans for a VFR qualification?Because the German ATC will reject any NVFR flight plans which are not filed using IFR way points......the controller does not know VFR and guides you through IFR waypoints. You could insist you are VFR-NIGHT, but will confuse controller and after a short while, you give up and follow the IFR-light behavior. Without an IR, IFR flight is not allowed so, you have to be VFR and therefore would have put 'V' in the Flight Rules box of a Flight Plan - so the Controller should not be confused at all.

Learning how to file VFR Flight Plans acceptable for VFR flight at night in your local area (Country) is not the same as being taught how to file IFR Flight Plans.

[ChickenHouse]

@LA: VFR-Night is not allowed where I live now, so my experience may be outdated, but from the time flying night in Europe I remember quite many occasions, where the controller gave a **** on what I filed. They usual case was picking up knowing my destination and then route me where they think it may fit - I don't remember any night flight flown as filed. During night routine they always treated me flying NVFR exactly same as any other IFR flight, so my past experience is that NVFR is better told dark IFR-light.

[27/09]

Thing:

:
Why would your airports close just because it's night?


Maybe because people who have been working there all day might want to go home?

What people? Are you saying there needs to be someone on the ground at the airfield before it can be used? That's a bit quaint!!! What do they actually do that enables an aircraft to fly from that airfield?

Here in New Zealand, like the US and Oz, so long as the airport is equipped with runway lights that are operative you are good to go for night ops. For private ops day or night there is no requirement for any ground based personnel.