Extreme Hold Joins

[Lafyar Cokov]

Hello

Obviously without an FMC - of you were in a jet and looking to manually join a hold from the Direct side arriving over the fix - but it requires a very hard turn to turn onto the outbound leg - is there a 'correct' way to do this?

For example joining a hold that is inbound on 180 Right turns and joining on a heading of 105 - what would be the correct way to join the hold??

Thanks

[Amadis of Gaul]

Probably parallel entry, keeping in mind that recommended entries are just that, recommended, not required. I'll tell you what's NOT recommended: flying a jet without an FMC. That sounds like way too much work.

[FlyingStone]

Probably parallel entry, keeping in mind that recommended entries are just that, recommended, not required.

Well, technically speaking, wording in ICAO Doc 8168 includess the word shall, so it's a strong obligation.

1.4.1 The entry into the holding pattern shall be according to heading in relation to the three entry sectors shown
in Figure I-6-1-2, recognizing a zone of flexibility of 5° on either side of the sector boundaries.

However, practically speaking, I'd choose the simplest entry (lower workload) with the smallest turn (less chance to deviate outside of protected area).

For example joining a hold that is inbound on 180 Right turns and joining on a heading of 105 - what would be the correct way to join the hold??

If I understand correctly, inbound course is 180°? In this case you are really on the limit (sector boundary + 5° flexibility). Why would you want to complicate your life by picking (since you are within +/-5° from the sector boundary, you can pick the entry) the more difficult entry of the two? And by the way, if you are above MSA, you can do just whatever you like.

Keep it simple, stupid. Works every time.

[RTN11]

Realistically if you stay in the protected area of the hold, I don't think it matters at all which entry you do. Even then, I've often heard people request two minute hold legs for passenger comfort if holding above MSA for a prolonged period.

On an IR test you obviously have to convince the examiner that what you did is sufficient to pass, but most are realistic about holds these days.

I don't think ATC ever saw what a hold entry or holding pattern was supposed to look like until they invented the FMS :ok:

[DooblerChina]

Just do as the book says. All joins will have a protected area. In your example, the book says direct so fly direct. What would be more important however is to be at the correct speed. In the example stated if one arrived at the fix a little fast (250 say) with a tail wind and below MSA then that could really spoil you day.

[172_driver]

FAA and ICAO, slightly different wordings. Recommended vs. Shall.

[aterpster]

172 Driver:

FAA and ICAO, slightly different wordings. Recommended vs. Shall.

For Part 121 pilots the AIM "recommended" entries are de facto mandatory. They are a pass/fail item on company simulator check rides.

At a jet operating at maximum holding speed, which is usually the case for the least fuel burn, the correct entry can be critical in congested airspace. Of course most modern FMSes will do the correct entry.

[172_driver]

Ok, didn't know that. Never flew part 121.

Can someone tell Amadis?

[FlightDetent]

... At a jet operating at maximum holding speed, which is usually the case for the least fuel burn, ... V max endurance vs. V max holding speed... please elaborate. Present type at typical LW differs by about 100 km/h