Army threat to Dornoch Airfield at weekend(s)

[Maoraigh1]

The Army will be using Tain Range for live firing on the first weekend in December. This will be NOTAMMed. It was stated earlier that the Army would make more use of Tain. Initially, this appeared unlikely to affect us - just avoid overflying the landward area.
However, an enquiry produced the information that no circuits would be allowed south of Dornoch Airfield - and circuits to the north are not permitted by the airfield owner. The tower at Tain will not be manned, and contact will have to be by telephone. The enquirer has been told no-one is available at present to give more information. This would effectively close Dornoch at weekends when the Army are using it. It should be possible to fire in a direction that would not affect Dornoch traffic.

[Mach Jump]

I don't have my Scottish chart to hand at the moment. Is Tain just a standard Danger Area, or does it have local byelaws to support it as well? You can tell by the symbols on the chart.


MJ:ok:

[Curtis E Carr]

This might help (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/39430/tain_gunnery_bombing_range.pdf)

[Mach Jump]

Wow, Curtis. Where did you find that?

Fascinating as it is, can it be that the byelaws have not been updated to take into account the increased size of the range Danger Area, and to provide for a fine of more than £5?

Maoraigh1:

If the byelaws have not been updated, then I would be inclined to inform those in charge of the Range that you will continue to use Dornoch Airfield at weekends, and during the week for that matter, without any restriction, or change to the circuit, as the area in the byelaws does not cover the Airfield, or it's present circuit pattern, and the existence of a Danger Area alone does not prohibit your entry.


MJ:ok:

[riverrock83]

Brilliant - although the danger area doesn't match those coordinates... :}

[Mach Jump]

...although the danger area doesn't match those coordinates

Exactly! The mere existence of the Danger Area doesn't prohibit entry, unless the byelaws have been updated to include the larger area.


MJ:ok:

[Flyingmac]

Fine increased to £500 in 2008.

[mad_jock]

you have to find out who the person was talking to.

It may be the prat that thought he could stop all aircraft flying in class G in Scotland for the period of 7 days during joint Warrior just by issuing a NOTAM.

I don't have the chart either to hand and from memory the danger area doesn't encompass dornoch.

Even if you can't get your normal downwind, just go through the over head and do a tear drop over the sea onto final to a right base. Or come straight in at the other end.

I don't think I have been there outside a spot landing comp when there as been more than one aircraft trying to land at a time.

[NorthSouth]

For all air weapons ranges there are two danger areas - the air danger area, and the land/sea danger area. The latter is the one that the byelaws apply to in the case of Tain. If you look at the OS map of the area you'll see the boundaries of this area marked - they extend out to sea east of Dornoch airstrip, but don't cover the airstrip. This is the same boundary as set out in the 1937 byelaws. It hasn't changed since then.

The air danger area - D703 - is marked on the chart as having byelaws associated with it, that prevent entry. But those are the 1937 byelaws, which only apply to the area shown in those byelaws. they don't apply to the rest of D703.

One caveat. The AIP entry refers to the byelaws as SI 1940/684. There isn't an SI ref number on the 1937 byelaws so I don't know if they're the same thing. But I'm pretty sure they are.

Looking at the operational consequences, you could still join on a right base for 28 from the Embo Lane and avoid the danger area (giving you about a half mile final). Climbouts from 10 would also be OK with a relatively early left turn out, or even a right turn out.

There's even room for a left hand circuit on 28 although it would involve a pretty tight base/final, keeping a good lookout for those artillery shells whizzing past your right ear!

Seems to me this is just the usual MoD overkill. Best bet is for Highland Aero Club/Highland Aviation to seek a meeting with RAF Tain and whoever the Army people are and sit down and agree the best procedures.

Also a good idea to get things firmly established for the future because the Tain byelaws are up for review at some point and it will be important not to let them sneak in something that will make ops at Dornoch and Easter more difficult.

NS

[mad_jock]

I doudt very much its artillery. The nearest guns are Glasgow and Edinburgh and you would be quicker going to Warcop or Otterburn than go up North.

Its more than likely the usual arse covering for smoolies (lighting flares) etc.

If its weekends only it will mostly be TA and they tend not to do moving live fire exercise at weekends only on annual camps after a weeks build up training. And you need 5km splash behind and 1 km ricochet to the sides which they wouldn't be able to get.

They already have a mortar range at Fort George but I suppose they want somewhere for the heavy mortars.

Suppose it could be anti-tank but realistically they don't fire them very often in training as they cost so much.

My money is on some clueless Captain putting together training order and has over stepped his knowledge base. More than likely after being fed utter bollocks by Lossie who are the parent controlling command for the area.

[Maoraigh1]

The use for live firing is being promoted by a Major(Rtd). It's now being raised at MP and MSP level. It was being done on the quiet. It is a serious threat to GA.
PS. D702 Fort George has been unofficially extended - listen to Inverness ATIS on 01667 464255 - "activity of a dangerous nature between D702 and the Black Isle up to 500'" refers to live firing.
PPS. Thanks Curtis.

[NorthSouth]

D702 Fort George has been unofficially extendedI don't think that's right. The situation at Fort George is that the air danger area is SMALLER than the surface danger area. The latter extends much further out to the north, towards the Black Isle east of Rosemarkie, than D702. Small arms ranges typically have a surface danger area but no air danger area but they are listed in the AIP and you'll find the Fort George one in there at ENR 5.3-2.

NS

[mad_jock]

Why on earth would you want to be feet wet at below 500' to the north of the Fort?

[Maoraigh1]

Fort George is no bother - not anywhere I'd want to go - just odd euphemism on the Inverness ATIS. I wondered at first if it referred to people swimming or sunbathing, with all the warnings in the summer about the dangers of these activities. When it got colder, I asked about it.
D702 existed for years before that ATIS.

[fisbangwollop]

I can confirm that the original post is correct after I attended a brief recently at Lossimouth given by the Range Safety Officer at Tain who did indeed indicate the Army would be using D703 on the occasional weekend for weaponry training. I guess it will give the same problems as it used to do in days gone by when the range was often notamed as active on occasional weekends for the demolition of Unexploded ordnance. The big problem at weekends is that there is no one there to contact to give you an entry clearance into the range to allow access to Dornoch airstrip which indeed does lie within D703.

I think the solution should be simple by modifying the area of D703 for ground gunnery only.

Tain is close to my heart......I started my ATC career there 42 years ago. Checkout the link below in which the operator of Dornoch gives information about access to the airstrip.
Mid America (UK) Ltd | Dornoch Airfield Information (http://www.dornochairfield.com)

[fisbangwollop]

http://s3.spanglefish.com/s/32304/documents/tain-1.pdf

[Maoraigh1]

From the Lossie AUWG 4/11/2014: “FS Knox reminded the AUWG that Tain Range is now licensed for ground firing (groundtroops)
and that this was likely to happen when the range tower was not manned by controllers. All activity will be notified by NOTAM,
however there are no confirmed procedures in place to enable the deconfliction of flights to/from the local airfields.”

Rumoured/leaked
“Activity will be two weekends a month” “It will be mainly RAF Regiment TA from Lossie”
“The proposal is to reinstate the previous SFC to 5000’ for both land and sea areas.”
“Permission to land and take-off at Dornoch will have to be sought by telephone.”
Just the landward area, but avoiding Fearn and Easter Airfields and the Tain Microlight strip would keep everyone happy.

[DeltaV]

fisbangwollop

Checkout the link below in which the operator of Dornoch gives information about access to the airstrip.
Mid America (UK) Ltd | Dornoch Airfield Information
Whoa there. Can't let you away with that. Mid America (UK) Ltd in the person of Dickie Bird might like to be the operator of Dornoch but neither he nor his business is. He, it, operates two aircraft from Dornoch but he is not the operator of Dornoch airfield.

[fisbangwollop]

Deltav.....OK, well maybe not technically the operator. :cool:

[Maoraigh1]

air danger area is SMALLER than the surface danger area

That has interesting implications for the Tain Range. The air area has a lot of habitation/public use land under it.

[Mach Jump]

The air danger area - D703 - is marked on the chart as having byelaws associated with it, that prevent entry. But those are the 1937 byelaws, which only apply to the area shown in those byelaws. they don't apply to the rest of D703.

They have no right to exclude you from any area outside that covered by the byelaws.

The byelaws do not prevent operation in the Dornoch circuit pattern.

Just remind them that THEY are responsible for ensuring the safety of THEIR operation, and that firing must be stopped if their operation even looks like becoming unsafe, and then tell them firmly to SOD OFF!


MJ:ok:

Ps. I remember in another life flying regularly into Dornoch. At the time there was no facility for tying aircraft down for overnight stays, and the Council were asked to install some tie down rings.

To our amazement some workmen arrived shortly afterwards and concreted two metal rings into the apron.

On closer inspection, we found, to our dismay, that they were installed about 50m apart and weighed about half a ton each!

Are they still there?

[NorthSouth]

Yes but in the Tain case the danger of bombs being dropped on you/ricochets from cannon fire etc applies only to the surface danger area; the air danger area is there to protect the range circuit patterns from other air traffic - it's not there to stop bombs falling on the good people of Dornoch.

[Maoraigh1]

This notice has now appeared at Dornoch:

Dornoch Airfield Departures
Dornoch Airfield lies within EGD 703 Tain Air Weapons Range and permission must be sought prior to departure

PROCEDURE
Personnel are to contact Tain AWR Tel 01862 892185 or on Frequency 122.75 prior to departure, and pass departure details. In the event that no communication can be established with Tain AWR, contact is to be made with RAF Lossiemouth ATC on 01343 817426 to establish status of EGD703 prior to departure.

[cockney steve]

Irrespective of the legalities, flying lead may not have read the rule book. It does not seem a good idea to argue with it. :8

[Mach Jump]

This notice has now appeared at Dornoch....

Oops.

As the airfield operators seem to have rolled over, and made it a condition of the use of the airfield that departing aircraft do not operate within EGD703 without a clearance from either Tain AWR, or RAF Lossemouth, then that trumps any geographical limitation of the Byelaws.......... for departures.;)

Check the PPR information for a similar condition for arrivals.


MJ:ok:

[Maoraigh1]

As the airfield operators seem to have rolled over,

Probably not so - the Council were asked to put up notices after alleged infringements of the Danger Area, and have probably accepted the suggested wording without question. It's rumoured they are asking for an RAF representative to meet them.
PS. in February the RAF said there would be ATC cover when live firing was taking place.

[rateone]

D703 extends significantly to the north of Dornoch airfield and as we know is active during weekdays, presumably for fast jet traffic. Do we know why the Army/RAF now want such a large area active during weekends as well? If this is for small arms, mortars, etc? Can we negotiate a smaller area for weekends? The MOD can't argue that the area needs to cover the Dornoch peninsula for safety reasons as members of the public use the beaches and the golf courses, not to mention the caravan site and these are all in D703. A an area that would allow a tight RHS circuit off 09 would not seem to be a big ask.

[Maoraigh1]

Thanks to John Brady of the LAA and everyone else who contacted MPs etc.
a rather zealous controller over-dramatized the situation.
There will, therefore, be no changes in the foreseeable future that will affect the local GA community.
:D:D:D

[mad_jock]

So lossie haven't changed thier spots then.

[Mach Jump]

There will, therefore, be no changes in the foreseeable future that will affect the local GA community.

That's good to hear. Shame the local powers couldn't have been more inclusive in the first place.

Make sure they take down the sign though. If they don't you are still restricted.


MJ:ok:

[Maoraigh1]

New signs have beeninstalled by the Defence Infrastructure Organisation at Dornoch airfield

The signs were news to the Highland Council official who manages Dornoch Airfield. Permision was not given to stick them on the Highland Council property wall and door.
There are safety concerns, as Safetycom 135.475 is used at Dornoch when the Range is not active, but they imply the Range frequency is in use all the time.
They have the same legal status as an A4 sheet stuck without permision to a terminal wall at Heathrow saying "Non-radio aircraft are welcome provided they join overhead at 1500' QFE and follow the instructions on the Signals Square"

[amwaluk]

Funny that considering that initially I believe that the user of the based aircraft wanted the signs placed at the hold but the highland council said no and that they had to be placed upon the shed where landing fees should be paid. I believe that there have been at least 3 or 4 dasors submitted this summer due to aircraft infringing the danger area. At least one of these could quite easily have ended up being a near miss with a tornado if it had not been for the military controllers actions. Maybe it would be a good idea for the highland council to ask the military to log all movements in and out of Dornoch for statistics purposes and to compare against the landing fees register. The sign can't be too bad an idea as I believe that one of the other local airfields as asked to have similar produced for display.

[mad_jock]

And how on earth do they know that its been busted anyway apart from visual estimate from the range tower?

[NorthSouth]

And just as we thought this over-zealous MoD action had been dealt with, take a look at this:

Q) EGPX/QWULW/IV/BO/W/000/005/5750N00407W001
B) FROM: 14/12/01 07:00C) TO: 15/01/04 16:30
E) UNMANNED AERIAL SYSTEMS OPERATING WI 1NM RADIUS LOCATION 575005N 0040632W (DORNOCH, HIGHLAND). ON-SITE CTC 07738 179046.
14-12-0094/AS6
LOWER: SFC
UPPER: 500FT AMSL
SCHEDULE: 0700-1630
and
Q) EGPX/QWULW/IV/BO/W/000/005/5746N00354W001
B) FROM: 14/12/01 07:00C) TO: 14/12/04 16:15
E) UNMANNED AERIAL SYSTEMS OPERATING WI 1NM RADIUS LOCATION 574623N 0035359W (FEARN, HIGHLAND). ON-SITE CTC 07738 179046. 14-12-0093/AS 6
LOWER: SFC
UPPER: 500FT AMSL
SCHEDULE: 0700-1615

The "Dornoch" location is on the A9 at the south end of the Dornoch Firth bridge and just inside D703. The Fearn location is at Cadboll, about 1.5nm NE of Easter airstrip and also just inside D703.

[Maoraigh1]

I see the need for the signs - but worded to NOT imply this has to be done at all times. eg "If you have not checked Tain Range status." Some people trail in and assemble trikes, and never get near the runway ends, so the apron is a good location. My point was to answer the suggestion the notice was a Highland Council condition of using the airfield.
I did 2 touch and goes there on 23/11. I have a landing card for Dornoch. I didn't phone, but I had checked the NOTAMs on my Android. I used Safetycom.
The UAVs might not be the MOD - there have been a few UAV notifications in the Highland Region lately

[Maoraigh1]

Looking at the height, I don't think they'll bother us - and I don't think it's MOD operations.

[mad_jock]

there are a couple of owners of heavy quad copters in the area for survey work and photography.

[Mach Jump]

And just as we thought this over-zealous MoD action had been dealt with, take a look at this:

The CTC numbers are the same for both locations. Try giving them a ring to find out whats going on.


MJ:ok: