Jumpseat with EZS

[TC-DCA]

Hello again !

I'll fly with EasyJet Swizerland, SunExpress and Pegasus Airlines the following week.
I think to write a letter to the Captain to get access to the jumpseat during t/o, CRZ, or LDG, for the first time.
I already flew many times with EZS, and I always had access to the cockpit but only at the end of the flight, with simply asking to flight attendants, but they never asked to the captain when I asked them at the boarding, (that's normal, they are busy in the same time..) but only at the end of the flight..
So that's why I'll write a letter this time, and for Turkish companies, I also flew with both of them, SXS accepted me before the flight one time (I was lucky as the Steward was in training to become a pilot), but I can't say the same for Pegasus that never accept before or after flight..

So, what can I write in my letter to maximise my chance ?

Thanks ! :)

[halfofrho]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but you won't be able to access the cockpit of any EZY/EZS aircraft during any part of the flight regime. Unfortunately it is company policy. You will of course be able to ask to visit the cockpit before of after the flight.

Can't speak of other airlines, but I seem to remember it being an EU/EASA rule. Maybe someone can confirm this?

[TC-DCA]

Thanks for the answer !
I also think the same but I'll try my chance, maybe he can accept with the letter. :)

[Doors to Automatic]

Not a chance even if you know the captain I am afraid to say. Maybe in time the rules will be relaxed but for now it is against the law in most countries following 9/11.

[INeedTheFull90]

It won't happen on EZ unfortunately. The crew will loose their jobs if they do.

[DaveReidUK]

but for now it is against the law in most countries following 9/11

Not so. With the exception of the US (obviously), most countries don't have regulations that specifically prohibit flight deck visits while airborne. Many individual airlines prohibit them, but that's their choice.

[OhNoCB]

In my company (EU based but not EZY) it is forbidden and as above this is I believe a LAW not a company policy. Our policy itself is that only employees in uniform displaying valid ID or inspectors with appropriate ID are allowed on the flight deck during flight. I think I also read somewhere a while ago that one of the post holders of a department (perhaps post holder flight ops) was able to authorise someone else if they received a written request for exceptional circumstances. Never heard of it happening though and I might have recalled that incorrectly anyway.

[Doors to Automatic]

Every airline has forbidden it since 9/11, so I would be surprised if it is not law in the US and EU at the very least.

[Hotel Tango]

Every airline has forbidden it since 9/11

Absolute nonsense!

[No comment]

Agree with Hotel Tango. Its certainly rare but not unheard of today...even in Europe.

[Laarbruch72]

It's certainly contrary to EU law (EU185 and Commission Decision 774) and therefore (naturally) it's prohibited in easyJet's company manuals also. Some of the less scrupulous EU operators might (unlawfully) allow it, but as easyJet aren't cowboys I'm sure that your letter will get a polite reply in the negative. Sorry for the bad news.

[Hotel Tango]

Some of the less scrupulous EU operators might (unlawfully) allow it

Interesting statement.

[DaveReidUK]

It's certainly contrary to EU law (EU185 and Commission Decision 774)Can you quote the section of EU 185 that relates to airborne flight deck visits ? It's not immediately obvious in that document.

[Laarbruch72]

I'll quote it tomorrow Dave, once I'm in work and have access to the lot. It may well be in the 774 which of course is restricted so couldn't be quoted, but either way I'll let you know where it resides.

I'm also wondering if the SCD applies to the easyJet Swiss fleet, I'd guess that it likely does. There's a fair bit on in flight security in there too. Not sure what MSMs the Swiss Government set, if any.

[Doors to Automatic]

Hotel Tango if it is such "absolute nonsense" perhaps you would be kind enough to furnish us with a list of EU and US airlines who allow it?

[Hotel Tango]

That was in reply to your post stating, I quote: "every airline". Where did you stipulate British and American in that statement?

[Doors to Automatic]

I meant it in post #8 although having re-read it I admit it wasn't very well written.

[Hotel Tango]

:ok: sorted ;)

[Laarbruch72]

Can you quote the section of EU 185 that relates to airborne flight deck visits ? It's not immediately obvious in that document.

Sorry Dave, I quoted the wrong regulation. It's referred to in the framework regulation rather than the detailed instruction, so it's in EC300.

The baseline comes from ICAO annex 17 which states:
4.3.3 Each Contracting State shall require its commercial air transport operators to take measures as appropriate to ensure that during flight unauthorized persons are prevented from entering the flight crew compartment.

So the EU loosely do that in the framework regulation in typical wishy washy style: (Chapter 10)
Without prejudice to the applicable aviation safety rules: Unauthorised persons shall be prevented from entering the flight crew compartment during a flight;

Which does leave a lot of room for interpretation as to who exactly is "authorised", but then each member state sets out in writing in their MSMs what they would specifically regard as "authorised".

In the UK, the SCD has a definitive list of categories of persons who the regulator would accept as being authorised. All of my colleagues in other member states have similar lists. Sadly for our OP, "polite chaps who write nice letters" don't appear on those lists, it tends to be crew, training crew, positioning crew, some other categories of airline employee, and regulatory bodies.

It might be worth a punt for the OP, easyJet's Swiss fleet may not be subject to the UK MSMs, and Switzerland's definition of authorised may be looser than ours.

[DaveReidUK]

Thanks for that.

Which does leave a lot of room for interpretation as to who exactly is "authorised", but then each member state sets out in writing in their MSMs what they would specifically regard as "authorised". Yes, I would agree that, given the captain has absolute authority, it would be hard to argue that anyone legitimately invited to the flight deck by him/her isn't then duly authorised to be there.

[Hotel Tango]

it would be hard to argue that anyone legitimately invited to the flight deck by him/her isn't then duly authorised to be there.

Exactly. From personal experience I know that some European carriers still leave it to the Captain's discretion and ultimate responsibility. Since 911 I have never asked to go to the FD but, to my surprise, I have on three occasions been invited to the front office during the cruise and then later also for the landing. These were respectable European carriers including one major. Yes, my ATC I/D was checked but basically they didn't know me from Adam. Additionally in some areas outside Europe/USA/Canada things are still much more relaxed. Not with all, but with quite a number of companies. Again, those companies leave it at the Captain's discretion. I have also witnessed friends/girlfriends/family members gain access quite openly on a few occasions.

For sure, the strictest adherence is by British and North American carriers and worldwide major carriers. But my point is that there are more exceptions than many in the industry care to believe. However, not many, if any, who work for these more "liberal" companies, frequent PPRuNe. And those who might, probably will not particularly wish to advertise the fact.

Bottom line for the O/P: probably zero chance with EZS but you might get lucky elsewhere someday ;)

[Laarbruch72]

I'd disagree Dave. I agree that the Captain does have absolute authority to deny entry (even to those on an "authorised" list), but I'd argue that his authority cannot override his national law. So in effect, he can't "add" to an authorised list, as that list is set by legislation. That's certainly how my company sees it.

it would be hard to argue that anyone legitimately invited to the flight deck by him/her isn't then duly authorised to be there

Not so, the UK SCD lays out in black and white which categories of person can be authorised by a company. As I alluded to earlier, it doesn't include "anyone invited by the Captain".

[Bealzebub]

An airline captain doesn't have absolute authority to permit or deny anything. They are certainly empowered with various authorities, and are likely to be held to account in the exercise of those authorities. The absolute authorities are normally the statutes, orders, rules, legally mandated instructions, and directed procedures on which those authorities are based.

There may arise occasions when a captain has to vary from those mandates, however he would likely be held to account if there wasn't a very good reason for that variance. I can think of a very few situations when a variance to "authorised persons on the flight deck" might fall within such a judgement, however none of them have been alluded to on this thread.

Some countries, and their registered airlines are not subject to statutory or regulatory prohibition in this particular regard. Of those, some have operationally mandated instructions to restrict and prohibit. As to the remainder, given the current global tensions, it is unlikely they would want that information to be published.

[DaveReidUK]

but I'd argue that his authority cannot override his national law.Agreed. That's why I made a point of saying legitimately invited by the captain, i.e. not ignoring any regulations to the contrary.

[Laarbruch72]

An airline captain doesn't have absolute authority

I'm sorry Bealzebub, that was an inaccurate choice of words on my part, specifically the use of "absolute". Depending on company and country of registration of course he'll likely have authority from his company to deny entry to his flight deck to anyone on the authorised list, should he deem that necessary for reasons of safety, concentration, or anything else he himself deems important.

I think at least we're all agreed that his authority doesn't extend to overriding national law, generally speaking, when it comes to who may be authorised.