Elstree - Has R/T Improved?

[CaptAirProx]

Lots of comments on here recently saying Elstree FISO/AG operators had improved.

Well I was there a few weeks ago and went to the tower to collect some aircraft keys. Was extremely polite to the fella in the tower particularly as I know of their snappy personalities. I asked if I could go to the back room to get the keys and I was greeted with an evil stare and a response of just looking through me and turning away. Quite rude really. I responded with "I guess thats a yes then????" If I was a Tyro Pilot I would be getting a picture that all operators in towers were horrible little men...............

Secondly, I state at the hold "ready for departure". No response from tower. Try again, no response. PA28 then calls 4 mile final. He gets told call 2 miles by FISO. I then ask for radio check. We also swap boxes. Aircraft on final confirms he's reading us 5's. So we announce our intention to back track and line up for immediate departure. All of a sudden a voice on the R/t says " No you don't there's an aircraft on final"

I say "why will you not respond to our transmissions". He's says "you have an aircraft on final you should wait". We'll excuse me mister but when In your FISO training did you get told to ignore an aircraft's request for departure because you believe he should'nt line up. What about saying, "G-#### hold position - aircraft 4 mile final"

As it happened the aircraft called two miles as we lifted off the runway, so I cannot see this guys problem accept that he has a serious attitude and should go try another career. If you don't like your job - do something else.

Anyone else still find Elstree as Elstree has always been?

[FlyingForFun]

Since when is a FISO allowed to tell you not to line up, anyway? It's "at your discretion" - and if there's traffic which, in the FISO's opinion, would affect your decision, he should inform you about it. At least, that's the way I thought it was supposed to work...

I'm sure I will fly in to Elstree one day, since most of my family and many of my friends live in the area, but I haven't been there yet, so wouldn't like to comment on their R/T procedures...

FFF
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[Aussie Andy]

T*ssers

[Dannyboyblue]

In response to flyingforfuns reply, FISO's have full control on the ground, up to the holding point of the runway so they can indeed instruct an aircraft to hold position at a holding point.

If in any doubt this rule can be found in CAP 410 part A and B and cap 427

[FlyingForFun]

Thanks DannyBoy.

Of course - now I think about it more, it makes sense. They don't have control over the runway - but you can't get onto the runway without using one of "their" taxiways :rolleyes:

Still doesn't excuse what CaptAirProx says happened to him though.

FFF
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[M14P]

I flew past Elstree on Sunday and was pleasantly surprised by how polite and normal they sounded. I hope that a new leaf has been turned!

I had just visited Denham who were absolutely fantastic in accomodating to my requests and needs. I believe that the chap on duty is a Northolt TWR fella and was a model of professionalism - thanks boss.

AFISOs do have 'control' on the ground but like any other controller they do not have the power to 'prevent flight'. I am absolutely sure that coordination of landing and departing traffic is outwith of their technical remit but it is a really vague point. Can anybody clear this point up? Surely unless there is a clear and immediate danger of collision the phrase should be "At your discretion"?

I know that I am verging on a rant but I find the AFISO/Controller/AG thing very confusing and almost impossible to teach to students. I think that we should be moving towards abolishing AFISOs and their half and half responsibilities and be making it easier/cheaper to train a basic Tower Controller. That way we have two very distinct systems: A/G (or even a UNICOM-style system) "it's your own responsibility" and Tower "You are in a coordinated system".

The current system is absolutely mental and is open to all sorts of interpretations by more zealous AFISOs. Proper TWRs or nothing I say! I wish AOPA would lobby the CAA on some real issues.

[FlyingForFun]

I agree with M14P about abolishing AFISOs - can't really see the point of them. If anything, I'd rather be controlled in the air, but not on the ground.

I logged 100 hours flying out of a field with full ATC (Chandler, in Phoenix, AZ). Although there was a seperate frequency for Ground, which controlled the main taxiway, the ramp area was uncontrolled, and aircraft could move around freely without bothering ATC. In fact, the most common action by ATC when there was a conflict on the taxiway was to direct one of the aircraft onto the ramp... in other words, "I can't be bothered with these conflicts - move over to the area that I don't control and sort it out yourself." That's no a criticism of the controllers, who were excellent - but demonstrates that even at a busy field where ATC is needed, pilots are quite capable of taking care of themselves on the ground. The idea of being controlled on the ground but not in the air seems completely the wrong way round to me...

FFF
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[Min Sink]

I have to agree, having flown in Florida a bit I found the UNICOM system worked very well. If there was someone listening on the ground they gave you the R/W and wind etc. if not you use your common sense. Everyone made their own traffic decisions and I didn't have any close encouters or problems.

[QNH 1013]

Are the AFIS and A/G systems unique to the UK or are they ICAO systems?

[FlyingForFun]

I think AFIS is peculiar to the UK - but I'm willing to be corrected if I'm wrong.

A/G is not completely unlike uncontrolled fields anywhere else in the world. The difference is that A/G are a ground station - you call them up, and you expect someone to answer. In other systems, such as Unicom/Multicom in the USA, you might not get an answer - although many larger fields will always have someone on the ground during normal hours.

FFF
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[Final 3 Greens]

In general terms (not with specific reference to alleged incident at Elstree) it seems to me to be unreasonable for ATC or AFISO to hold an aircraft due to a PA28 on a four mile final, unless it had declared an emergency and the runway was being kept clear.

At a typical PA28 approach speed of 75kts (assume still air) four miles means over three minutes before touchdown, ample time for a smart departure.

[distaff_beancounter]

Under the latest system, promolgated by the Elstree airfield operator, to avoid noise complaints, there are no overhead, or dead-side joins.

All aircraft, on straight-ins, now have priority over circuit traffic. The straight-in join is at 4 miles. Once a stright-in has called "4 mile finals" then the AFISOs seem to hold any departing traffic.

At least, that is what I understnd the present syetem to be, but as I have not flown in/out of Elstree since last Saturday, it may well have all changed, AGAIN :(

[CaptAirProx]

Thats fine if the AFISO wants to hold me. Thats why we call ready for departure. Just seems odd that he feels it necessary to ignore you rather than tell you? And then gets shirty for being asked can he hear our transmissions and as he can why will he not respond! Weird guy!

Bit of an odd procedure to hold traffic for a four mile final landing traffic. Mr Misery in the tower asked the PA28 to call 2 miles. One would think this would be a better cuttoff for blocking departures.

Mind you I suspect I would feel depressed if I worked at an airfield in such a state.

P.S

If anyone wonders why I am going on about this, well I shall tell you! As an instructor, I have learnt that it takes lots of time, patience, understanding, and empathy towards any student pilot for them to learn and become confident, therefore competant in what they are doing. IT TAKES SECONDS TO SHATTER IT.
Guys like this in the tower are doing our profession and the world of GA very bad injustice and the sooner "we" clamp down on this sort of behaviour the better. Elstree isn't the only airfield like this. I also appreciate that it is not always the guy on the ground, it can also be the arrogant pilot that thinks he knows it all with his 1000 hrs and *oh, I used to fly in the military old boy!" old cronnies.

Aviation is one of those last things in life where we are taught to respect, accomodate, and appreciate those around us. Lets not let this safe tradition which seems so "untrendy" in todays world get lost forever. Amen!

[ppl(a)]

"Elstree Radio" was the A/G arrangement for many years. Some time back, it became "Elstree Information".

Also, giving way to those on 4 then 2 mile finals is the latest in what has been MONTHS of alternating systems of traffic flow aimed at appeasing local noise sensitivity. In a way it is now simpler than the previous "circuit changing on the hour!" lunacy - other than for flying schools, there are no circuits as such at Elstree, and even those based there need to do huge "local flights" rather than "circuits" in the normal sense.

And I can't say I'm surprised that comments about the field and controllers continue ...

[BRL]

I sent off a copy of this to the ATC forum. Check it out, there are a couple of good replies to it there. :)

[Red Four]

Without knowing the ins and outs of this, or wishing to defend the chap concerned, occurs to me that perhaps the reason that your call was not responded to may have been because FISO was busy doing something else that needed doing (eg: Phoning for clearance, answering telephone, taking landing fees, arranging fuel, answering complaints of pilots in the office!, or even visiting loo on the call of nature!)
Not sure whether the FISOs at EGTR work on their own all day, or is there a relief FISO available when needed?

Also, remember that a FISO is probably working with next to no aids to assist him in his job. With no disrespect intended to the light aircraft fraternity, a pilot that calls with '4 miles' to run can be anything from 10miles out, to virtually over the threshold at the airfield. With no means of verifying the range, the FISO is perhaps understandbly reluctanct to commit himself to encouraging a certain course of action.

Anyway, almost certainly best to follow up your difficulties with a quick phone call after you land, talk it over, and see if there was a reason this occurred that you were not aware of. There are often 2 sides to a story! If you do not feel satisfied with the response, you always have the option to consider writing a letter of complaint to the aerodrome managment and/or CAA.

[CaptAirProx]

Red Four, you are quite right that a lot of GA can't judge the distance on final, however, this was an Elstree based aircraft using Elstree procedures which have actual stated ground features to tie up with the distance from threshold.

Secondly, the AFISO only has responsibility up to the hold of the active runway. If he was not sure of the DME to run he could have quite legally said "A/c believed to be 4 miles, enter, backtrack and line up your discretion" This is indeed what they would normally say. He can't clear you to line up.

Thirdly, yes I understand he could be doing other things. I have many times worked the A/G station at a busy weekend at my local Wiltshire strip. It is very hard work. But if he then comes back and I am getting concerned about my radio, and have asked if he received my calls etc...........why does he not say, "Apologies, just on the land line, reading you 5's, line up at your discretion. Etcetc"

Regarding ringing him back........Well I can't imagine I'd want to speak to him again! What I might do is if this happens again with him, I will chat to the CAA regarding non standard use of AFISO. Sod it.

[srs what?]

While we are on the subject of FISO's and their duties it is worth mentioning that SRG are trying to increase the reponsibilities of FISO's by giving them control of aircraft on the ground e.t.c. and currently looking into the possibilty of FISO's being able to do Procedure Approaches.

Going back to the original post in this thread, it is clear that the person in question has a serious attitude problem and by no means should have ingnored the aircrafts call. However, FISO's only have control upto the holding point and can't clear you past it. Can they therefore not allow you to go past it!?!

The response to the pilots call of holding short should have been either:

1) G-CD Roger. No known traffic, take off RWY26 at your discretion, surface wind 260 at 10 knots, report lining up.

2) G-CD Roger. Your traffic is a PA28 on 4 mile final report lining up.

In the case or No. 2, the pilot should then either report holding if he/she deems there is not enough room to line up and take off or report lining up.

Once the aircraft reports lining up the FISO can then give the surface wind e.t.c. e.t.c.

The problem mainly lies with friendly bunch at ATS Standards who very kindly change the rules in in CAP427 and CAP410 A&B but don't inform pilots. The result: Pilots accusing FISO's of making incorrect calls and FISO's getting frustrated at Pilots making incorrect calls.

The phrase "lining up" and FISO's having control of aircraft on the ground upto the holding point has infact been in place for a good few years but only appeared in the latest CAP413 printed a month or so ago.

[FNG]

The current Elstree system (forced on them by noise complaints) can leave aircraft stuck at the hold for ages whilst people drag in, low, over a dense urban area with zero (I mean zero) forced landing options (that's on 26, it's not much better on 08). I suspect that people call final when more than 4 miles out, to gain a pointless priority.

Flying from Elstree the other night, for the first time in nearly a year, I thought that the FISO was a bit gruff, but mostly OK. He was tetchy with someone downwind who asked if there was traffic on 4 mile final. Answer: "Affirm, and you might like to monitor the frequency, as we are busy". OK, the pilot should have been listening and maintaining awareness, but, if in doubt, ask, and the FISO is an, er, Information Officer.

So, a little improvement on the radio, but it's still my least favourite airfield. Such a shame that Leavesden closed.

[Hairyplane]

Sorry to hear that Mr Nasty's charisma bypass was permanent. I thought he had been to the shrink following my letter to Pilot last year.

Nasty bloke, horrible place, plenty of other nice places to go.

Having just returned from Stockholm (in my 1936 Miles Falcon!) I have a good experience of how they do it in Holland, Germany, Denmark and Sweden.

We aren't good at it I'm afraid. They knock us into a cocked hat.

If you want to visit nice places why stay in England? Midden Zeeland to Old Warden at 1936 speeds only took me 2 hours - great restaurant, charming people, nie hotel within 5 minutes walk (if you can fight off the people who want to drive you there...)

Loads of other great places within easy reach.

Go for it.

[Flying Tooth Driller]

The latest departure and circuit diagrams were already provoking discussion and amazement last Saturday morning, just after their release. Looking forward to seeing the Mk 578 version this weekend ;)

[distaff_beancounter]

I went to fly at Elstree last Saturday morning, & asked only jokingly, if the pattern had changed AGAIN, & surprise, surprise, I was handed a photocopy of the new departures chart.

Elstree's aerodrome operator, has risen to new heights in defining "variable circuits"

Variable Circuits .... meaning to change the whole pattern, at least once a month :mad:

PS: I heard a rumour at Elstree, that they are now about to change the helicopter entry lanes, as well! :eek:

[Flying Tooth Driller]

posted 7th June 2002 07:56
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Elstree Variable Circuits?
I went to fly at Elstree last Saturday morning, & asked only jokingly, if the pattern had changed AGAIN, & surprise, surprise, I was handed a photocopy of the new departures chart.

Elstree's aerodrome operator, has risen to new heights in defining "variable circuits"

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Many procedures outside the ATZ! However, he showed us some photos of allegedly low flying helicopters, taken by a NIMBY. No evidence of where or when the photos were taken, and for all we know, they were taken with a telephoto lens!

BTW, you were up early! See you tomorrow?:cool: