42 Days

[plainpilot11]

42 Days takes us to December 18th, 2014, exactly one week before Christmas. As the effects of CC will be cumulative, I sincerely wonder as to the recommendation of the motion by the GC to be able to delay it this long.

As Rod pointed out, there will be progress when "forward bookings" are impacted, and this will NOT happen 1 week before Christmas. Now is the time for that to happen.

I would expect a serious and easily understood explanation from the GC as to why there is the latitude for them to delay the implementation of CC up to 42 days after the closing of the vote, which is open for nearly 2 weeks. That in itself is ridiculous. It should be open for 1 week only.

It looks like our own are dragging their feet on this one. Come on guys, how about an explanation!

[Sam Ting Wong]

How about we vote first if we should allow an election to decide if we should vote for a CC membership referendum on CC??

[ColonelAngus]

Sam Ting Wong... Sam Ting Vewy Wong.

[DropKnee]

We need a vote on the color of the ballot😛 And we need it now!!

[asianeagle]

Like I said on another post somewhere about a week ago, come February we will be saying we missed another opportunity.:ugh:

[never ready]

No surprises here sadly........ I imagine we will still be "talking" about this as we run up to Xmas in 2015.

[meanagre]

GC is worse than management with all this delay and prevarication.

Why another vote, why another 2 weeks, why did we drag out for many weeks the vote on the TA?

Amazing

[plainpilot11]

It's the elephant in the room that no one is talking about, that nothing has been explained from the GC in regards to this delay.

If it looks like fish, and smell like fish, it's probably fish.

[MoonandBack]

I see a lot of posts regarding this subject in this forum, but have absolutely no idea what it is about... would anyone care to explain? What vote is happening exactly?
Thanks!

[asianeagle]

I see a lot of posts regarding this subject in this forum, but have absolutely no idea what it is about... would anyone care to explain? What vote is happening exactly?
Thanks!

so you really did go to the moon and back :eek:

[Shep69]

The CC vote (which will now likely be very high in favor of) has to be implemented WITHIN 42 days--not wait 42 days. So the strategy would likely go into effect 7 November with the actione of the work to contract/work to rule being implemented at the discretion of the union leadership within this time constraint. The strategy is clear and well written out and I'm sure we'll have more guidance as things move forward.

The good thing is the CC terms--as I understand it--will not be optional for union members.

[MoonandBack]

Great, really helpful answer, thank you so much. Could you possibly answer my question now? I'm not living in HK currently, but moving in the New Year.

[BillytheKid]

And how much would your money be worth if you had invested in a stock that lost money? Or are you the next Wolf of Wall Street?:ugh:

[Trafalgar]

bridgeport. management mole much....? pathetic. All posts like yours accomplish is to convince even more of us that the ONLY way forward is to stand up once and for all for what is right and what we deserve. And we 'deserve' ONLY what we are willing to fight for. I'm willing to fight. You would rather live on your knees. Enjoy

[Progress Wanchai]

How did you invest the remaining 99 percent of your salary bridgeport?

[asianeagle]

No, I'm the Wolf of Wan Chai

Just because I point out some obvious possibilities, doesn't mean I'm a management mole. I'm not.

I, like many others, are just sitting in the middle. Not militant unionists, and not management stooges.

Just sitting in the middle,..minds unclouded by radical unionism, or CX kool-aid propaganda. Just watching the AOA constantly ignore the wishes of its membership, and watching the management try to nickel and dime their way to big bonuses.

couldn't agree more :D:D:D

but stand by for the "you either with us or against us" speech :ugh::ugh:

[main_dog]

but stand by for the "you either with us or against us" speech

And that's because, er... you are.

Management are most definitely not on our side and are not "sitting in the middle" either, so if you don't sit on the pilot side of the table, essentially you're sitting on theirs. You may not like it, but looking at it coldly, that's the way it is.

Also, albeit painfully slowly, it does seems the union is finally listen to its members.

Democracy is a slow and painful process boys and girls!

[Pucka]

Dog, the geography of where the pilots is hugely different. It is a variable feast. Some are nearing their career end and others mid stream whilst some are starting..it's a spectrum of desires, benefits and wants. Some wanted a pay deal..irrespective of sense. Others CC..some just wanted a fight ...forgetting the history of the 49 and the polemic of 92. Some haven't had a pay rise since 96 and the very thought of recovering at least a mere nano percentage of what should have been, is worth it..if not just to continue to fight of a better front foot. YOU are not the generic...

[Shep69]

For the self - proclaimed sitting in the middle 'Wolf of Wan Chai':

"But the man in the middle is the knave who blanks out the truth in order to pretend that no choice or values exist, who is willing to sit out the course of any battle, willing to cash in on the blood of the innocent or to crawl on his belly to the guilty, who dispenses justice by condemning both the robber and the robbed to jail, who solves conflicts by ordering the thinker and the fool to meet each other halfway."

--Ayn Rand

[main_dog]

Dog, the geography of where the pilots is hugely different.

I agree, and this is why we are a weak opponent, always thinking about number one and not our fellow pilot. Personally, the proposed deal enough was actually good enough for my own category/base but I don't think it was good enough for several others, so I voted it down.

Pay is the is one element that should unite us all! United we stand. Divided we get pecked to death. I'm a fairly "sitting in the middle" kind of guy too, but I'm also pretty tired of getting pecked at.

Just my two cents (continually eroded by inflation)

[Pucka]

Dog...admirable reply but sadly we are a bunch of selfish individuals when it comes to bottom lines....

[bridgeport]

Shep69 - A good quote from Rand. Worth thinking about.

I resigned from the AOA the week after they blatantly ignored the membership's vote on Contract compliance. This was a weak, pathetic bypass of a democratic process worthy of some third world dictatorship.

The moment they respect this decision of the membership, them I am back in the fight. But I am not going to side myself with an organization that sees its place in the fight as more important than winning the fight.

[Captain Dart]

Yeah, that showed 'em. Good luck on your own, especially if you are involved in an accident or incident.

[McNugget]

True, but;

Given how the union have conducted themselves, is it any wonder we have members like this?

There's really very little from the AOA to demonstrate they listen to the wishes of the membership.

[bridgeport]

Captain Dart - It didn't show them anything. If the AOA ignores 90+% of the membership, then they don't give a toss about me.
But its myself I have to live with, and I can't justify supporting a body that is acting contrary to what I believe is in my best interests.

Dan Buster - I joined the AOA when I joined the company, and stuck with them till this point. I will be back in when I see myself getting value for money out of my union fees.

McNugget - I agree the AOA has conducted themselves poorly on a number of issues.

To quote Kenny Rogers - You have to know when to hold em, and when to fold em.

[airplaneridesrfun]

Back on topic.

The DFO says there is only so much in the pot for his bonus, and that we should believe him.

Apparently, the company is ok with 6/4/4 across the board, with an additional 50% HDP (15% total) beginning Jan 1 2015. If the company makes a total profit of more than $8 Billion HKD for this year on they have also conceded they will pay at least 1 month profit share; and anything over 13 Billion, at least 2 months. Not quite good enough, but at least they are budging. Only because they have to in order to retain pilots who give a crap.

The profit this year is set to be huge, so upper mgt is keen to have the pilot contract behind them by March 2015. They could care less about Christmas.

In other news,some of the aircraft leases that are leased from 3rd parties have some interesting financing arrangements. Mark to market is not fair value but mgts implied value.... The numbers are cooked, so that other related entities profit (ex directors, air china, and Swire pacific, Bermuda, BVI, etc). Tell me something I didn't know. Check the finance plates on the aircraft and that will have you scratching your head.

Finally, SK and AT are having an internal battle over who is really in charge. Apparently, SK is very arrogant.

[Pucka]

SK??AT??? Just spit it out..if you have insiders then name and shame..WTF!

[joebanana]

Apparently, SK is very arrogant.

Who'd have thought? :rolleyes:

[Blowback]

I don't understand ,if the union won't or refuses to do what the majority of the members want, then just start CC on your own , it's not difficult , why is everyone waiting for the AOA when clearly they are not listening to the members

[Loopdeloop]

Pucka, I assume you're joking!

SK is one of the root problems as it's not possible to come to an agreement when he's in the room. I understand he was annoyed when RH walked the last offer into the AOA on the eve of our focus night a few weeks ago and of course he would appear to be angry on the surface.

SK's job is to negotiate for the company to get the best deal he can. He will never sit in a room with our NC and come to an agreement as by his definition, if we agree then there must be room for him to do better. That's why the rostering talks went very quickly to mediation. In this instance he knew that we wouldn't find any common ground so just wanted it over as quickly as possible to get to the next stage.

Pay was different. We want that resolved more quickly so he can just sit there giving unacceptable offers, not budging position and just wait it out until we've gone through the whole GFBA steps followed by our voting process knowing he's on a win-win at the end because either:
a. He'll have managed to get a sub standard pay deal done or
b. The company will go behind his back and do a fair deal while he's not in the room. In this case, he'll just sit back and say they'd have done better had they listened to him.
Either way he's done a great job!

It's not possible to come to a fair agreement while SK is in the room so we can expect a last minute out of the room deal every time.
I think AT would prefer to be more grown up and negotiate like a first world company which may be why there's a bit of an internal battle going on at the moment.

[crewsunite]

I'd love to be a fly on the wall - when the vote is walked into the office by Rod.
:D

All together now !

Due to full loads ST - is still only waitlisted on his last FOC home.

[Ex Douglas Driver]

From SCMP:

Cathay pilots set for Christmas work-to-rule protest as pay row rumbles on
PUBLISHED : Thursday, 06 November, 2014, 3:40pm

Cathay Pacific pilots are set to press ahead with industrial action during the busy Christmas season after union members, disappointed with the level of pay rise offered by the airline, voted overwhelmingly in favour of working to rule.

More than 90 per cent of the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association’s (HKAOA) 1,900 members voted in an online poll which asked if they wanted to press ahead with a work-to-rule protest, according to a letter sent to the members and obtained by the South China Morning Post.

The letter showed that 93 per cent voted in favour of the motion, while 7 per cent voted against it. The result was released on Thursday morning.

The motion did not state when the work-to-rule, or contract compliance, protest would take place. But another letter from the association said that the action “must” commence within 42 calendar days after the result of the vote was announced.

The association’s general secretary Chris Beebe said that the pilots are targeting Christmas to make their point.

“I don’t believe the plan is to drop to contract compliance immediately,” he told the Post on Tuesday, before voting closed. He said then that he expected the motion to be passed.

The protest would involve pilots working according to what their contract requires. For example, pilots would refuse to work on rostered days off.

One source with knowledge of Cathay’s operations said that the impact of a work-to-rule protest on passengers would be “significant”, especially in unexpected situations such as a typhoon, because Cathay did not have enough pilots on standby.

Flight cancellations and delays could be expected if the actions eventually took place, the source said.

Under the airline’s proposal announced in September, Hong Kong-based crew members would get pay increases of 4 per cent this year, 3 per cent next year, and 3 per cent in 2016.

Pilots based in Europe would get a worse deal, with wage increases of 3 per cent, 2 per cent and 3 per cent. Those based in New Zealand would see their pay go up by only 1 per cent each year. Cathay has around 2,900 pilots.

A Cathay spokesman said on Thursday afternoon that the airline had not been informed by the association of the result of the vote but added that “if the results are as suggested, then we are disappointed”.

“We have been in regular communication with the negotiating committee of the HKAOA and look forward to further discussions later this month,” he said.

He also said that the nature of Cathay’s business requires the airline to prepare resources to cover any operational irregularities.

“We will do our best to make sure that we continue to operate our flight services as scheduled,” he added.

A Cathay pilot, who asked not to be named, said on Thursday that the pilots would refuse to work on their days off during a work-to-rule protest.

Other sources said that many pilots, especially the junior ones, were being called in on days off two or three times a month, disturbing their time with friends and family.

The last time Cathay pilots pressed ahead with industrial action was in July 2001, which led to the sacking of 51 pilots. They have become known collectively as the 49ers because 49 were sacked on one day.

Three months into the action in 2001, the association cited an analyst as saying that Cathay had lost HK$800 million as a result. But Tony Tyler, then Cathay’s director of corporate development, said the action had stopped having any effect on passenger numbers or flight delays after three months.

[Just Do It]

Three months into the action in 2001, the association cited an analyst as saying that Cathay had lost HK$800 million as a result. But Tony Tyler, then Cathay’s director of corporate development, said the action had stopped having any effect on passenger numbers or flight delays after three months.

Then they have nothing to worry about and we get to keep our days off......every one is happy! Still costs the same either way!