Use of iPhone whilst in light aircraft.

[BlueJays]

Good afternoon

I was just wondering how important it is to have a mobile on 'airplane mode' when flying. I sometimes take photos and I've always wondered the importance of using that mode when flying recreationally. Hopefully someone can shed some light on this for me.

Thanks in advance,

M

[9 lives]

If you are PIC, and you continue to fly the plane with due attention, use of an Iphone will not interfere with the safety of your flight. If you think that is it interfering with an aircraft system, turn it off. For my extensive experience with this, any interference from a cell phone in flight is the most minor in nature. It's good to check, you have go ahead...

[Rod1]

10 years ago I was involved in a less paper in the cockpit system for airlines and there were telecom rules that banned you from using mobiles from aircraft because you can log into too many towers. Not sure if this is still in force.

Rod1

[Flyingmac]

Saturday, September (http://en.mercopress.com/2014/09) 27th (http://en.mercopress.com/2014/09/27) 2014 (http://en.mercopress.com/2014) - 08:58 UTC
European airlines cleared to allow passengers use mobile phones and PEDSs

Airlines across Europe have been cleared to allow passengers' use of mobile phones and portable electronic devices (PEDs) throughout flights. The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) said there would be no restrictions in place from a safety perspective - a long-held reason for devices to be turned off or placed in “airplane mode. http://www.pprune.org/images/infopop/icons/icon9.gif

[piperarcher]

In my experience an iPhone has never caused any interefence of any kind whatsoever not in flight mode. A blackberry on the other hand will constantly be a disruption to at least the COM channel.

[ShyTorque]

I was just wondering how important it is to have a mobile on 'airplane mode' when flying.

Just make sure you put yourself on 'airplane mode' when flying.

[worrab]

My experience is that if you leave your phone on the comms will quickly remind you to turn it off. Not sure whether it's the radio or the intercom but something picks up the RF and buzzingly reminds me to switch it off.

[John R81]

At low height and low speed (120 knt) never had a problem

Faster causes tower problems (I am told, Vne for me is 150 Knt so I wouldn't know). Higher and you loose signal from the tower and you burn battery whilst it hunts. Even then for me no coms interference.

No, I don't make calls or text in flight. Too noisy and no free hands in an unstabilised helicopter.

[thing]

I use SkyDemon on my iPhone while flying with it plugged into the fag lighter. It must (I'm assuming) be OK otherwise the guys at SkyDemon wouldn't have released it for iPhone. I would imagine they looked into all of that. Anyway it doesn't interfere with anything.

[Pirke]

In the C172 my phone used to interfere with the com. Now I'm used to putting it to airplane mode.

[stevelup]

The problem with iPhones (and iPads) is that if you put them into flight mode, this also disables the internal GPS.

It's likely that if you've gone to the trouble of mounting your iPhone in a cradle and supplied power to it that you're going to want the GPS working!

So you have three choices.

1) Don't put it in flight mode
2) Take the SIM out (although you'll still get occasional chirps)
3) Put it in flight mode and use an external GPS

I get no interference at all from my phone - in my aircraft, it seems the key is to simply keep it away from the headset cables.

[thing]

The problem with iPhones (and iPads) is that if you put them into flight mode, this also disables the internal GPSI always thought that it was a bit of a design fault. There are lots of situations where you might want to be 'dead to the world' as it were but still need the GPS. Anyhow, I leave the whole shooting match on with my phone and it doesn't seem to bother anything. You get live updates, weather and what have you while you are flying as well if you leave it on fulll fat mode.

It's quite an amazing bit of kit really cf what pilots had twenty years ago, and it just goes in your trouser pocket when you aren't flying.

Disclaimer: for the old and bold here I still fly with a marked up map and plog.

[stevelup]

Yes, it's very silly...

The reason it happens is because the GPS receiver is in the cellular baseband chip, and when you put an iOS device into airplane mode, Apple power down that whole chip.

[Heebicka]

never had any issues with iphone in plane at all, even using data transfers when 1000AGL and bellow (update weather etc..)

[Pirke]

My android devices keep the GPS working in airplane mode.

[darkroomsource]

I have seen a mobile phone (cell phone, I was in the US at the time) when placed within about 300mm (a foot) of the panel cause the VOR needle to deviate by a good 3 dots. Never had the nerve to try it flying an ILS approach.

[Heady1977]

there were telecom rules that banned you from using mobiles from aircraft because you can log into too many towersFaster causes tower problemsI've been looking into this on & off for years and asking anyone I have come across with appropriate knowledge or skills in the mobile network area...

Seems to be a common refrain as I hear this around the bar at the flying club from time to time and on here more than once in the last many years.

I've never been able to get a definitive answer and would appreciate it if someone is able to point to something tangible.

The best I've been able to find was an article that referenced another (American) article on the subject saying that either the FAA/FCC had come to such a conclusion. However, how the conclusion was reached was not disclosed and the actual mobile network "tested" was not defined. Its been quite a few years and I no longer seem to have the bookmark but I believe that the article was written in the late '90s. At that time America was pre-GSM so the mobile networks were based on AMPS & D-AMPS. So I have always assumed that any "test" that may have led to the conclusion that "using a mobile while flying causes problems with the mobile network because the mobile camps on many cells because it can see many cells at the same time and therefore clogs up the network" was based on these older mobile network systems.

GSM systems were designed for the fast inter-city trains found in Europe at the time the GSM system was defined. Most small GA aircraft fly at or slower than these fast trains. The GSM system is designed to measure the speed of the mobile and decide which coverage layer to push the mobile to (macro, micro, pico) to reduce the handover rate and therefore, the amount of signalling within the core network. GSM systems have cells of different frequencies and reuse frequencies geographically for capacity reasons. However, even if your high enough to see many of these cells at the same time - you'd have to be higher than typical GA (over 10,000ft at greater than 5W) to have any affect. Mobile phones are typically 500mW only. As macro cells are typically 35miles wide - at 2000ft @5W the radio horizon is approx. 40miles and you'd see maybe three cells. At 5000ft @5W the radio horizon in approx. 70miles and you'd see maybe seven or so cells. At 10,000ft @ 5W the radio horizon is approx. 110miles so you'd see maybe a dozen or so cell sites. The typical macro frequency reuse distance is 9 cells. So at 10,000ft you would typically only see maybe two cells of the same frequency. At 500mW the distances will be less than the examples above...

Now UMTS and LTE systems are totally different. The UMTS system was designed for the newer high speed trains found in Europe and can cope with higher speeds. Also UMTS & LTE systems are actually designed so that a mobile can transmit and receive from multiple cell sites at the same time in normal operation. In many cases; these cells all work on the same frequency so in the example above it would be normal operation to have multiple cells talking to your mobile and your mobile talking to multiple cells all at the same time. The download speed increases in LTE and LTE-A are from techniques where data is sent to the mobile from multiple cells at the same time. The same is true for upload speed increases. So in the situation above even if your mobile signal was received by multiple cells - the system would either make use of it or ignore you. If the cell ignores your mobile then you are seen as just noise to be filtered which is normal operation.

I have to put the caveat that I'm knowledgeable of many areas of mobile networks but would not consider myself an expert. I'm also not a frequency planner (but sit next to one on a day to day basis). So I'm happy to be corrected on any of the above.

So from my thinking and understanding - and I'm happy to be corrected with tangible evidence. The issue of "using a mobile while flying causes problems with the mobile network because the mobile camps on many cells because it can see many cells at the same time and therefore clogs up the network" nobody looses any sleep over as by the nature of the current mobile network systems it is not a problem and the systems deal with it as designed.

However, you will burn through your mobile's battery much faster as if it is GSM it will transmit at maximum power until it gets a response. If UMTS/LTE it will try an educated guess at an appropriate transmit power - if no answer from the network it will increase the power and keep going through this cycle until it is transmitting at maximum power where it will remain. If the mobile has a signal and camped on the network; when flying there is a greater chance of the mobile moving between location areas and routing areas faster than when walking, driving or on fast trains so the mobile will be very chatty. (this is what you hear when a GSM mobile interferes with audio frequency amplifiers - the chirp chirp you hear in your headphones)

However, the legal side of using non-approved telegraphy equipment in an airplane is another matter entirely...

[Agaricus bisporus]

Simple.

It is illegal to use a mobile phone from an aircraft. (excepting licenced systems installed in airliners, obviously). To do so is an offence - probably a criminal offence and for very good reasons against the Wireless Telegrapy act of 19**. (related to a historical rule about antennae attached to elevated structures I believe)

You may choose to ridicule this but it doesn't alter that fact that you may not do so, and of course responsible citizens won't.

[thing]

and of course responsible citizens won't. Quite right too. I wouldn't dream of using mine your honour.

I take it then that Skydemon are breaking the law by producing an app to be used on a mobile phone whilst flying? Or is the onus on the user? And can said user then sue Skydemon if found to be falling foul of the law?

[500ft]

This is one of those threads that makes me curious about how rules can differ in different places.

I have always encouraged my passengers to text if they want and leave my phone on. After a quick google I found this from 2010. Use your phone in NZ but perhaps don't divert your office phone.


Cellphone Use VFR

On 10 November 2007,a Fletcher FU24-950EX aircraft collided with terrain while top-dressing near Opotiki. The pilot was killed in the accident and the aircraft was destroyed.

The aircraft was fitted with a cellphone hands-free kit, which enabled the pilot to speak on the phone through his headset. Phone records showed that the aeroplane’s cellphone had been connected that day for more than 90 minutes, on 14 voice calls, and that the pilot was speaking on the phone at the time of the accident. Earlier that year, the same pilot had been talking on the aeroplane cellphone while taking off on a top-dressing flight when the aeroplane hit a sheep on the airstrip.

The Transport Accident Investigation Commission (TAIC) report into the November 2007 fatal accident said, “No single conclusive reason, such as sudden incapacitation, was found to explain why the pilot did not pull up, but the circumstances suggested a combination of factors involving distractions and fatigue.

“The use of cellphones by agricultural pilots flying at low level was not uncommon, and the pilot evidently did so regularly…The accident occurred after more than 7 hours of work and more than 90 takeoffs and landings for that day.”

The TAIC report recommended that the Director of Civil Aviation address the safety implications of the use of cellphones during critical phases of flight while operating under visual flight rules (VFR). The Director has accepted this
recommendation, and rule development will begin on this issue.

Until the rule development process has been completed it is essential that all pilots apply common sense to their use of cellphones for voice calls and text messaging while VFR. Just because there is no rule against it, doesn’t mean it is a safe practice. Never let yourself be distracted from your core task of flying the aircraft, particularly during takeoff and landing, and low level operations.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that the use of cellphones by pilots is happening not just on private flights, and during agricultural operations, but also while on VFR air transport operations. It can be tempting to divert your office landline to your cell and continue to do business, or organise your social life, while flying. The privilege of flying, however, comes with the responsibility of maintaining good airmanship and professionalism at all times. This applies equally to both private and commercial pilots. Make safety your top
priority







.

[thing]

Interesting but I'm not advocating the use of a mobile has a mobile phone. I use it simply as a GPS, the way you would use a Skydemon stand alone unit, an Aware or a Garmin. It's just that with the iPhone you can't disable the phone without disabling the GPS unlike some Android phones. So technically I have to leave the phone on, although it's not used as such.

[ChickenHouse]

There are two sides on the use of an iPhone in flight.

First is the easier one, the legal part. Quite simple in almost all countries the use of active mobiles is forbidden in cockpit, or to say other - there is no certification of an iPhone for use in the cockpit and whoever uses it, does impose additional risk. This risk might be lower now, compared to what we knew a couple of years, but it definitely is a risk. So, legal wise - you are obliged to put the iPhone in Flight Mode if it is on during flight. If you don't, you usually will hear disturbances in COM and intercom and maybe a misfunctional compass.

Second is the more complex, technical part. The design of the iPhone is somehow flawed as it was never designed to operate in a cockpit environment. So, in order to reduce costs they chose a chip design, where the mobile part and the GPS part are on one chip set. So, if you disable mobile net, you disable GPS - which is quite bad. BTW: this is one of the most important differences to an iPad, where you are able to switch off mobile data and the device is quiet network wise. So, if you have a choice - go take the iPad instead of an iPhone. Another option would be to switch on Flight Mode on the iPhone, then switch on Bluetooth and use an external BT GPS - which could be more wise anyways.

[mixture]

Yes, it's very silly...

The reason it happens is because the GPS receiver is in the cellular baseband chip, and when you put an iOS device into airplane mode, Apple power down that whole chip.
t's just that with the iPhone you can't disable the phone without disabling the GPS unlike some Android phones.
So, in order to reduce costs they chose a chip design, where the mobile part and the GPS part are on one chip set

Actually, that's all a load of nonsense.

Just checked on my iPhone. Airplane mode on, location services on .... can still see my location on a map.

Maybe you're confusing yourself by trying to use maps that are not stored on the device but require an internet connection to download (those will need either cellular or wifi to be turned on, obviously !).

P.S. ChickenHouse ....even if what you said were technically correct, its not about "reducing costs" ....its more like efficient circuit design, reducing the prospect of chip failure AND reducing power consumption.

[stevelup]

No it is not nonsense at all!

Location Services is just reporting the last known position fix.

I absolutely guarantee you that the GPS is not functional in Airplane mode.

[mixture]

No it is not nonsense at all!

Location Services is just reporting the last known position fix.

Nope. I don't have Location Services on by default (for battery life & privacy concerns)....so my last fix would have been where I was last time I had to use maps rather than where I am now when I don't need maps.

Anyway, believe what you like, I don't really care, but I reckon the reality is you're just using it wrong.

[BackPacker]

3) Put it in flight mode and use an external GPS

Will only work if you have a wired external GPS. But most of the external GPSs I've seen communicate via either Bluetooth or Wifi. Which will be turned of in flight mode.

For the record, I have a simple suction mount that I stick onto the windscreen and put my iPhone in. Turn on SD and off I go. No ill effects whatsoever, apart from the light interference on the intercom. A full charge will give me about 1.5 hours of flying time without having to faff about with chargers and such. If the flight is going to be any longer I charge the phone via the cigarette lighter, if available, and otherwise I've got one of those 5000 mAh power packs.

With the iPhone on the windscreen I've never had GPS reception problems.

[stevelup]

Nope. I don't have Location Services on by default (for battery life & privacy concerns)....so my last fix would have been where I was last time I had to use maps rather than where I am now when I don't need maps.

Anyway, believe what you like, I don't really care, but I reckon the reality is you're just using it wrong.

You are completely and utterly incorrect.

Put your phone into airplane mode, then go and walk outside. Your position will not change.

[stevelup]

But most of the external GPSs I've seen communicate via either Bluetooth or Wifi. Which will be turned of in flight mode.

Once you've activated airplane mode, you can turn either (or both) Bluetooth/WiFi back on. The cellular radio (and internal GPS :ugh:) stays off.

That said, we're not disagreeing - I've never had a problem with interference either.

[OBx2]

Many moons ago (1995ish) I made a call while flying a glider out of Dunstable. Not long after I landed, I received a call from someone at Orange asking me not to do it again, or my number would be barred. I suspect that in the digital age they wouldn't be so bothered.

[Sam Rutherford]

Sorry, but it's all bollocks!


If there was any real risk, at all, to safe flight do you really think they'd rely on the SLF to 'please turn off your phones'??!!


No, if it was a serious issue the phones would be removed at security and placed in a lead-lined box (or whatever) for the duration of the flight.


So, my simple deduction - it does not have, and never has had, any safety issues whatsoever.


I'll duck behind the parapet now!


Fly safe, phone on or off, Sam.

[Mach Jump]

So, my simple deduction - it does not have, and never has had, any safety issues whatsoever.

Hahaha You may well duck for cover, Sam. :=

I can tell you that it's a real pain in the ass, (and in the ears) for the Flight Crew when 20 odd mobiles are trying to make a connection as you pass 2000-3000' during a complex SID, and then another in the baggage hold sets off the smoke alarm. :eek:


MJ:ok:

[Sam Rutherford]

I get that - but clearly 'the system' has decided that this does not constitute a safety issue (ie nail scissors are considered a greater risk).

Have you tried to change policy and have phones removed from SLF before flights? If not, perhaps it's not that big a deal - and if it is a big deal, why not try to make this change?

Sorry, throwing petrol on the fire, I know...

Cheers, Sam (heading for bunker, with helmet on head).

PS for what it's worth I switch my phone off because I know about the annoying noise it can make when looking for a signal.

[nkt2000]

This is an interesting discussion. Here is my twopenneth:

I always put my Iphone on silent when flying (I am a student pilot) so I do not annoy my FI if the phone rings. However, both my FI and I have bluetooth capability on the headsets and my FI has used his phone to contact airfields when out of radio range to check on VMC during one or two of my cross country flights.

It seems to me that the ability to use you phone from the cockpit in an emergency (Radio failure, for example) is a potential lifesaver.

I may have this wrong but I believe that Airbus, maker of the first totally FBW aircraft, did some tests and found there was no interference from mobile phones that affected aircraft systems.

I have just checked and it is correct that you can turn wifi and bluetooth back on in flight mode. looks like everyone is a winner!:)

[thing]

I've always thought that the mobile ban on airliners was more about getting you to use their squillion quid a minute phone system.

[nkt2000]

Me too but I think a certain amount of caution has also been in the thought process.

[B19]

Well I don't have I phone or IPad, but the wife always has hers. Its not used during our VFR flights. I have a friend who lost radio during a flight and it helped him out. He called tower and informed him as to the problem, solved the problem of landing at a controlled field without communications.

[ChickenHouse]

Well I don't have I phone or IPad, but the wife always has hers. Its not used during our VFR flights. I have a friend who lost radio during a flight and it helped him out. He called tower and informed him as to the problem, solved the problem of landing at a controlled field without communications.

This is the major reason I chose a Bose A20 with BT (which has its own battery compartment even when connected to plane power, thus still working even when total plane power is off), for emergencies. Usually the mobile on RAM Mount next to the pilot is put to flight mode, but already coupled to the Bose, so in case COM fails it just takes one action to get the phone as backup communications channel.

[Whopity]

I've never been able to get a definitive answer and would appreciate it if someone is able to point to something tangible.In the early days of mobile phone licensing (the Cellphone company buys a licence to operate the system) there was a prohibition of use in aeroplanes i.e. it was a condition of the operator's licence. Whether that is indeed true of later 3G and 4G licences I don't know, but that is the place to look.

[maxred]

Well with the marvel of Bluetooth, I link my phone to my Lightspeed, listen to Bowie, then call my wife to get tea ready as I start my descent.

Technology, marvellous.....