Oops that's bad timing

[4everAD]

So a couple of days after the personnel bulletin is published with a big article showing why going to NATO tours is a good thing the LOA for Belgium is cut by 33% Germany has been cur as well but by less gotta love the irony!

[Party Animal]

Yep - gotta love the one sided propaganda on how great life is on an overseas tour.


What is not mentioned is that you will be expected to live in a house far smaller than you would have in the UK because the rental allowance is so small. Your neighbours will work on the tills at Wal-Mart or be receiving unemployment benefit because, that's the kind of neighbourhood you will find yourself living in.


Your kids will be in sh1t state schools and you will just have to accept it because MOD will not pay for anything better. Your wife will almost certainly not have a job and the allowances will not cover loss of earnings. In fact, the allowances will barely cover the extra insurance you will have to pay for the privilege of driving a car at the same insurance rate as an 18 year old.


What else? Plenty but maybe Whenurhappy may wish to add to the downsides of an overseas lifestyle?

[Bob Viking]

It's a shame that your experience of life overseas wasn't great but it is unfair to suggest it is like that everywhere. I agree there are downsides that can come as a surprise but from where I'm sitting the positives definitely outweight the negatives.
BV:O

[4everAD]

Bob, I think the main point is you should never be worse off serving your country just because you serve overseas. Just because it may be sunny/perceived to be nicer than the uk is no recompense for the shoddy accommodation/loa/lack of employment for partners etc.
The way things stand the RAF cannot get people to volunteer for overseas tours hence the proganda push, the reduction in LOA seems strange when you consider the lack of volunteers. We have posts here that have been open for over a year with no volunteers, the only way to fill them is the carrot/stick of promotion (which many turn down rather than go overseas!) alas that doesn't work on SACs.

[MPN11]

Hmmm ... LOA in Singapore in the 60s was based on the premise that one had Roast Beef and a bottle of vino on Sunday Lunch.

Stuff that ... we ate chilli crab and prawns and drank Tiger. Happy days!

[salad-dodger]

We have posts here that have been open for over a year with no volunteers, the only way to fill them is the carrot/stick of promotion (which many turn down rather than go overseas!) alas that doesn't work on SACs.
So, there are posts in the military that can't be filled because people don't want to go. Interesting how times have changed. :ugh:

S-D

[MPN11]

Indeed ... but then it's all MONEY these days. ;)

No sense of adventure, no acceptance of hardship, just me me me .

Glad I did my 30 years when going overseas was a treat, and something to really enjoy.

[Pontius Navigator]

And my SiL has two children in a small international school, my daughter has a paid job as a teaching assistant (in UK it was unpaid). They have a duty free car, BX, NEW house, great access to Europe and he regrets nothing at all.

[ValMORNA]

In bygone days you went where you were sent.

[Selatar]

A little harsh MPN11,

Manning policy is swiss cheese, gaps everywhere, so unfilled posts not exclusively due to people not wishing to deploy. My overseas tour was good and in truth I didn't really want to go but followed deskies orders. Today's RAF is increasingly just a job for countless reasons. Still a Bl##dy good one but people are more selfish now. Not because they are less loyal but for starters because redundancy rounds are every 5 years, pay is flat and career management awful. And that's before NEM. As such those that want a NATO post come from a small demographic.

[NutLoose]

Surely a posting to NATO would take you off the Afghan merry go round... In my day you had to apply for it, and even then struggled to get it, does it still increase your point score towards promotion, I seem to remember serving in RAFG added one point to your annual assessment.

[Bob Viking]

If you were to re-read my post you will see that I wasn't denying that what you are saying is true in certain cases. I was merely suggesting this is not the case everywhere.

I am overseas and my house here is considerably larger than my UK equivalent, my wife is allowed to work (she stays at home with our three kids instead though) and the LOA seems sufficient (although I'd happily accept more). The schools are fine as well.

I just don't agree with tarring all overseas jobs with the same brush.

BV

[Selatar]

Nutloose,

NATO is no get out of AFG or any OOA. Whilst in NATO you may get a pass noting that many NATO postings involve a det to AFG. In truth you are likely to have just deployed or be top of the list after your tour. I deployed to Iraq during my NATO tour. :D

In recent years NATO tours have been easy to get and bad for promotion. Manning told the promotion element to an audience of 150 officers 3 years ago, of which I was one. Today there is a very strong push to reverse that.

[Melchett01]

From what I heard at a conference earlier in the year, NATO tours are going to be coming round more often and in certain areas are now a priority. I believe this stems from Libya when the UK tried to take up key posts in HQs various and were told no, you can't gap them and then swan in when you feel like it for the Ops.

Seems a little disingenuous given the UK contribution to AFG, which many of those nations being critical of the UK conveniently forgot that was the biggest NATO op ever!

However, as a result, if the conference speakers were correct, you will need a NATO tick in future if you are to be seen as competitive on the boards.

[Selatar]

Melchett,

Good to see the change of emphasis. I believe for Libya the case was more that when we had to fight down south it was realised the RAF had emptied Pogio. Other areas equally bare in terms of posts and influence. There is an element of closing the stable door to this I venture.

[Melchett01]

Referring back to the OP's point, a question if I may as someone who has been told he is in the frame for a staff job Stateside on returning from his current sunny and sandy appointment.

Does anyone know if the LOA cut mentioned by the OP is across all locations or was it Europe specific? What are the general financial considerations of taking a post in the US these days? Is it going to leave me out of pocket if I took it?

Before anyone says google is your friend or speak to the Adminers, my current job is in a slightly less technologically advanced bit of desert - not AFG - and I can't download the JSP for some reason. Plus as a digital appt ie it really is just me on my own here, I don't have any Admin support to bounce questions of. So as ever, I throw myself on the mercy of fellow Pruners to help out where the system can't.

One thing that does worry me about the offer though - I'm not a volunteer and you would have thought there'd be plenty of volunteers for a couple of years in the States. That's the bit that worries me .... why does nobody else want it

[BATCO]

Melchy

Can't confirm outside Europe, but LOA in France also cut. And without warning too. Just a note on payslip showing a lower rate for 18-31 Oct than for 01-17 Oct.

Regards

Batco

[jumpjumpjohn]

Melchett,

LOA cut certainly isn't across the board - ours has been slightly adjusted to take into account currency changes recently but otherwise it's been pretty constant.

As far as a lack of volunteers goes, often a lot of people love the idea of loan/exchange posts, but when they (and more importantly the family) do a bit more research they find out that it doesn't work as well for them as they'd hoped.

That said, I agree with BV - we're having a great time and wouldn't swap it for the world. If people go overseas and try to live their UK lifestyle they don't seem to enjoy it, if you embrace the culture and climate that you're going to you'll have fun wherever you go. Some people could be miserable on a tropical island!

[BATCO]

J3

I quite agree. I have to pinch myself every morning as the Eiffel Tower heaves into view as I head towards the 'MOD',or should I say M de la D?

Regards
Batco

[kintyred]

Overseas postings are not all about the financial rewards. My 3 years abroad taught me another language, that British is not always best, just how sh1t the NHS is, broadened my outlook on life in general and made me a number life-long friends.
I certainly couldn't fathom out why I was getting so much LOA, I just shrugged my shoulders and put it in a savings account. I also flogged the tax-free car some ancient NATO regulation devised in the aftermath of WWII said I was entitled to, to buy the holiday of a lifetime for my family.
Anyone who doesn't want an overseas tour should seriously think about why they joined the Service and perhaps think about a career change.

[Courtney Mil]

Melch,

The RAF will still be paying your salary so you won't be out of pocket. Just being paid to do your job.

[Whenurhappy]

Plenty but maybe Whenurhappy may wish to add to the downsides of an overseas lifestyle

I've spent the last week on the road in my area doing a bit of military tourism; stopped in for a rather grand Trafalgar Night at an Embassy on Friday night (think 'Carry on up the Khyber') and have just got back home after staying in a dodgy array of hotels and Government Guest Houses. Great fun except: I now have to scan (or fax - fax) travel claims in for everything; provide justification for all 'ents' expenditure over £25, for example. I have to deal with dodgy accommodation (the freezer has packed up sometime over the last 5 days) and the power has gone off twice this morning (as I type this message) and the Management Team will have to be called in as the landlord won't speak to us directly. But so much for these 'hardships'. COLA was reduced by £10,000 imi £10,000 on 1 Apr (equivalent to a Teaching Assistant's salary); on 1 Oct it went up by £2300. Fluctuations, you see. MTL no longer Business Class; no longer able to convert these to the equivalent costs and go somewhere else than London even though that was part of the package.

And let's no even mention the considerable daily inconvenience of the changing security state - the awkward 7 point car checks in car parks; ensuring someone always stays with the car, the body armour and trauma kit in the boot 'just in case'; have neighbours and others wonder why our cars look an awful lot heavier than normal...the routine closing of the Mission due to threats, wiffs of tear gas on a regular basis, the constant risk of 'sharing' of our phone calls and emails with our, err, 'hosts'.

[nimbev]

One thing that does worry me about the offer though - I'm not a volunteer and you would have thought there'd be plenty of volunteers for a couple of years in the States. That's the bit that worries me .... why does nobody else want it Perhaps somebody on high thought that you'd been doing a good job and deserved a reward? Or do people nowadays only go where they want/ask to go?

[Whenurhappy]

Principally the fiscal and career costs of going abroad means that many just won't take the risk. As mentioned, in many locations spouses can't work, schooling is an issue (howsoever arranged - local schools, BFS, Boarding, DoDEA), quality of housing is very variable (although generally DIO do try), bonkers rules on allowances, BFPO...I could go on. But ultimately it falls in to the 'too difficult' tray for many.

I've been on a number of really interesting and wacky overseas posts but my career has stood still (happy with that) and the overall value of the package to make up for all the minor troubles has massively eroded (not happy with that). This is compounded by a generation of personnel across the RAF and the MOD with no experience of serving abroad apart from the perception that it's a doddle, involving a constant round of cocktail parties and little work...

Time to get the mess kit ready. Another do to go to...;)

[Skeleton]

Can't see the problem or the need for the carrot and stick.

Can't get bums on seats by asking for volunteers, post someone and tell them they are a volunteer.

They are in the Military, not the Boy Scouts.

[Just This Once...]

Any chance you are confusing servicemen with convicted prisoners?

[Skeleton]

No not confusing the RAF with anyone. The RAF I joined worked on a simple basis....

Your opinion was duly noted but if a decision was needed, the committee was dismissed and the Senior Rank made a decision.

Im glad you were not around when I served my 27 years. If you think the RAF are "convicted prisoners" because of a cut in LOA, you really would have been in a world of hurt.

Life in a blue suit, get on with it.

[Just This Once...]

Things may have changed, but I suspect not.

The problem with the 'all stick' approach is that people get fed up and leave. Leadership, motivation and management cannot rely on the stick approach 365 days a year. If you have a retention and recruitment problem then the stick is counterproductive. This is especially true when families are involved.

I'm not sure if you are trolling or an ex-3 star, as your approach is common to both.

[Skeleton]

The good old he disagrees, must be a troll.

I am far from stick, many will testify to that.

Want to have another go at replying to my post without dragging the debate into the gutter.

[Just This Once...]

Im glad you were not around when I served my 27 years.

Can't see the problem or the need for the carrot and stick.


No, I think you have covered every angle on your own.

[Whenurhappy]

Things may have changed, but I suspect not.

The problem with the 'all stick' approach is that people get fed up and leave. Leadership, motivation and management cannot rely on the stick approach 365 days a year. If you have a retention and recruitment problem then the stick is counterproductive. This is especially true when families are involved.



Could not agree more. The problem is when lives become more complex with partners and families. The old 'you are a volunteer thus you are to do what you are told' might apply for operational detachments and training (and quite rightly, too), but is not a valid argument for tours that fundamentally change the world of those around you who don't get a vote in things. The RAF has been hemorrhaging many experienced personnel who would like to stay in and indeed, serve abroad, but there is so little flexibility now with massively reduced numbers (roughly 1/3rd of the 1990 Establishment of 92,000) that assignments are faced with a binary option: go/no-go if no-go then leave.

[4everAD]

I don't want to be treated any differently (better or worse) for serving abroad compared to those in the UK. Like it or not part of LOA is to compensate for a partners loss of earnings which in my situation is very relevant as my wife has tried for the last year to get a job here but to no avail and our families overall income has suffered as a result. As for the send them abroad whether they want to go or not brigade that might work for the singlies but not i would imagine for the majority of married personnel, I have to think about my wifes sanity and my children's education etc. In my case it was the right time to go abroad but at any other time it wouldn't have been and I would have pvr'd if pushed to go.

[Melchett01]

Thanks for all the replies, I hadn't intended to lob a grenade, it was a genuine question having been taken completely by surprise by the suggestion, but interesting to read the replies from both sides of the fence.

As alluded to, life in the 21st century RAF is a little more complex than some might remember, and I have to agree with JTO and Whenurhappy that for an organisation aspiring to attract AND retain the best, then outside of a wartime scenario 'you'll do what you're told and like it' really doesn't work and certainly isn't a school of leadership I subscribe to and wasn't how I operated during my command tour. It seemed to work for me as it's left me in what many would see as an enviable situation now. However, to add a little context:

Yes the RAF will still be paying me, so in that sense I won't be out of pocket. But how does cost of living work out overseas? Or is it just a given these days that you accept a reduced standard of living because of the difference in cost of living? A valid question I feel. A reduced standard of living due to higher costs and currency fluctuations working against ever reducing allowances could well leave individuals taking a hit financially to maintain standards. I guess it just depends on where you go and the specifics of the location but it's not much of a reward for a job well done, if that's what overseas job are and not something that families and loved ones have to put up with.

Also, whilst you are still getting paid, does the RAF pick up the bills associated with going overseas? And I don't mean moving and shipping, for which they do. I mean things like the costs of swapping mortgages from fixed term to buy to let because your bank won't let you rent your home out under the current terms? Does the RAF pick up the costs of unravelling car finance agreements that have time left to run on them and incur charges for early redemption? Those sorts of issues are a factor as much as cost of living and must be taken into consideration as much as LOA. Anybody that doesn't look across the board at all the financial implications may well find themselves out of pocket through unexpected costs. If they went into an overseas venture in the knowledge that should such costs arise they were either happy to or able to absorb them, then that's one thing. If they are suddenly surprised because they haven't considered all the angles, it could be an unwelcome but entirely avoidable surprise.

As for

Anyone who doesn't want an overseas tour should seriously think about why they joined the Service and perhaps think about a career change

Well it's great that people have been able to enjoy their time overseas, but not wanting an overseas tour shouldn't mark anyone out as being in the wrong job, it's why there used to be volunteer lists. For me personally, I would probably agree with you to an extent, otherwise why not go to the Civil Service for a more stable career. But 8 op tours in a decade is plenty of overseas time for now and is already a source of domestic discord, made even more complicated by elderly parents. And I don't think the prospect of a tax free car is enough of a sweetener on the domestic front!

Anyway, thanks for the replies, genuinely appreciated as I'm stuck out here with precious little than a flaky internet connection and only local IT systems with no access to the UK J1 chain. It's good to see PPrune is still capable of playing the role of Handbrake House when required.

[Whenurhappy]

Yes the RAF will still be paying me, so in that sense I won't be out of pocket. But how does cost of living work out overseas? Or is it just a given these days that you accept a reduced standard of living because of the difference in cost of living? A valid question I feel. A reduced standard of living due to higher costs and currency fluctuations working against ever reducing allowances could well leave individuals taking a hit financially to maintain standards. I guess it just depends on where you go and the specifics of the location but it's not much of a reward for a job well done, if that's what overseas job are and not something that families and loved ones have to put up with.

Also, whilst you are still getting paid, does the RAF pick up the bills associated with going overseas? And I don't mean moving and shipping, for which they do. I mean things like the costs of swapping mortgages from fixed term to buy to let because your bank won't let you rent your home out under the current terms? Does the RAF pick up the costs of unravelling car finance agreements that have time left to run on them and incur charges for early redemption? Those sorts of issues are a factor as much as cost of living and must be taken into consideration as much as LOA. Anybody that doesn't look across the board at all the financial implications may well find themselves out of pocket through unexpected costs. If they went into an overseas venture in the knowledge that should such costs arise they were either happy to or able to absorb them, then that's one thing. If they are suddenly surprised because they haven't considered all the angles, it could be an unwelcome but entirely avoidable surprise.

It depends whether you are taking a 'normal' overseas assignment (eg NATO or Cyprus), or something a bit different, such as Loan Service or as an Attache. In the latter cases different packages are offered; indeed the attache package uses different methods to calculate the COLA (rather than LOA) and child-care, and other factors (cost of a land line, maintenance of a posh wardrobe, Club membership etc) are included. certainly if it is Def Dip/LS appointment, you do not pay for housing or utilities (including furniture and white-goods). My last tour, the cost of a nice hiring, garage, furniture, CILOCT, utilities, was just under £1000 pcm; that's an obvious and immediate saving on taking up these posts.

In terms of mortgage change charges, it could be argued that this is within the Disturbance Allowance/Grant/whatever it has been renamed. However, I think that you could make a case to PACC to highlight the costs incurred, but I would imagine that they will respond by saying that the Service is not obliging you to rent your property. I encountered same problems several times in the past and speaking with the Lender eventually resolved the matter (yes, I had to get a bit shouty). Car finance charges - hmmm, I feel that there could be a stronger case to support this, especially if you are posted somewhere where it is not practical to take your car or (as is probably the case) the finance company may not allow you to do so. However, such costs may be expected to be covered by LOA - for example, German LOA does include an element, IIRC, for headlight conversion and winter tyres. (ps: if you are going to Germany, use Halford stick-on converters. I used them happily for three years and passed the rigorous TUV tests (MOT) with them)

The biggy, though, is loss of spousal earnings. LOA is not designed to replace these, although most of us have taken this in to consideration, but didn't expect such swinging cuts over the last 4 years. If you have kids in Boarding school and want to see them more than 3 x a year, additional flights become v pricey at half-term, etc. Also too, you will spend more on travel and tourism than a UK tour; expect to meet all manner of friends and rellies at the local airport if you are in a picturesque or popular location!

feel free to PM me - I can prolly give you more targeted info.