How would you fly PAJN LDA X Rwy 08 Approach?

[joshuahsong]

Please refer to the PAJN LDA X Rwy 8 approach chart.
According to the chart, MAP to the threshold is 3.2 nautical miles.
So we have to loose almost 3000 ft for only 3.2nm? I don't think that's usual flight. How would you do this approach?

[BOAC]

Please post PAJN LDA X Rwy 8 approach chart.?

[joshuahsong]

http://wayiam.com/pajn.PNG

[mustafagander]

Josh,

The minima has almost nothing to do with the MAP. Minima is the altitude at which you must be visual, MAP is the position where you must carry out the missed approach if not visual.

MAP is often past the threshold hence absolutely geometrically impossible to land after passing. This MAP is similar, not doable from minima.

Naturally circling is an option if you get visual late.

[Piltdown Man]

Assuming you this with a 3.7˚ descent you'll be about 8 nm at 3,200'. But I'd fly this approach as you would for any other localiser only approach, but with the proviso that a missed approach after MDA will be non-standard - you'll have to be creative. Personally, whilst climbing I'd follow the approach track, track the runway and then follow the standard departure from Rwy 08. For an N-1, I'd do the same and then follow the non-std N-1 profile, all the time knowing that I already had a fair bit of height in the bag.

[AerocatS2A]

Piltdown Man, why does a missed approach after the MDA have to be non standard? A standard missed approach would be to track to the MAP then conduct the missed approach. Why could you not do that?

[OhNoCB]

Read note 2.

A go around after passing the MAP will not provide standard obstacle clearance.

If you want to fly the published missed approach then really you MUST go around no later than the MAP. Otherwise you have to improvise.

[hvogt]

So we have to loose almost 3000 ft for only 3.2nm?No, you can descend below 3700 ft after passing BARLO. Still, the approach is rather steep (3.70° as indicated in the profile view).

[BOAC]

Purely of pasing interest - the 588 mast appears to be about 1nm on final approach track, or very close to it. How do you line up?

[BOAC]

Not quite the answer? Do I assume that a curving approach needs to be flown probably down to wings level at about 300'? Starts to get interesting at Cat C.

[AerocatS2A]

Read note 2.

A go around after passing the MAP will not provide standard obstacle clearance.

If you want to fly the published missed approach then really you MUST go around no later than the MAP. Otherwise you have to improvise.

We are confusing terms here. Piltdown said a go around after the MDA would need to be creative, you are pointing out the note that a go around after the MAP doesn't provide obstacle clearance. The MDA is not the same as the MAP! A normal approach would have you at the MDA well before the MAP so a go around can easily be made after reaching the MDA but before getting to the MAP.

[OhNoCB]

Very true! Completely misread Piltdown's post. Sorry!

[aterpster]

Here are the Jepp airport diagram and a topo snippet of the critical area. If you think this approach is weird, keep in mind the minimums are above basic VFR. What is really interesting if the IFR takeoff on Runway 8, where you must level at 1,000, and turn into very high terrain (while avoiding it visually) until clear of the close-in terrain:

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/aterpster/PAJNJeppAirport_zps77dcbf78.jpg

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/aterpster/PAJNTopo_zps5ffaeff9.jpg

[BOAC]

Thanks for the charts. Sporty as you say. I'd like to see the Magenta Line kids try that.

[JeroenC]

There is a fix page for that. Just brief to follow the GREEN in stead of magenta curve;)

[aterpster]

In the late summer of 1971 an Alaska Airlines 727-100 crash into terrain at the approximate point indicated by the green arrow. 111 people perished. They were arriving straight-in on terminal routing from the west.

The NTSB couldn't really figure out what happened so they punted to "misleading navigation display for reasons undetermined:"

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/aterpster/727crashsite_zps38936020.jpg

[BOAC]

Thus the answer to the OP is "not like that".

[glendalegoon]

getting back to the question, in some planes you might not be able to fly this approach well, easily and legally.

it is important to note the arrows after the MAP indicating that this portion of the approach is visual reference.


as a practical matter if you didn't have the runway in sight about 8 miles from the runway, you might not get in with an easy, stable approach. IF you did have the runway in sight you would have to continue descending below the MDA to maintain the stable approach criteria.

So, if you stayed at the MDA to the MAP and then WENT FOR IT, you would have to get CREATIVE in your flying. Or just enter the traffic pattern from the overhead and circle to land if too high.

This is the country of the bush pilot and he could probably get in just fine while eating a ham sandwich and telling a joke about a Kodiak bear and a fisherman's daughter.

[aterpster]

FWIW, PAJN is a special qualifications airport for commercial ops PICs.

[West Coast]

Thanks for the charts. Sporty as you say. I'd like to see the Magenta Line kids try that.

I'd say they do it about 3X a day on average. Alaska airlines services it daily. Flip the airport around and look at the Gastineau channel that leads up to RWY26. Alaska uses an RNP approach that goes up the 1.5 mile wide channel flanked by mountains rising almost immediately up to about 3000 ft. Hairy to say the least.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/divisions/alaskan_region/media/JNU_LOA_R18.pdf

Page 13 has a copy of the RNP approach down the channel.

Anyway, back to the chart, there's a special approach that follows the same track, just with much lower MDA, 1000 ft. The trade off if I remember correctly is a healthy FPNM climb gradient. The training requirement of the 8260 for the approach requires sim training with graphics specific to JNU or in aircraft. Funny enough, it doesn't state any currency requirements like other specials.