ATR 72 landing problems

[AT72]

Hi,

I have been flying the ATR 72 for just over 1 year now as FO and have about 600 hours on the type and 2000 hours total time. I am having problems with the landings and wondered if any pilots here, familiar with the type, have any advice.

To summarise, my approaches are stable and the touch downs are in the touch down zone, on the main gear and safe, no bounces, balloons etc but they all tend to be on the firm side. Are there any tips for landing this type, especially when using the normal speeds? My landings with the icing speeds tend to be a little smoother if that is any clue to my problem?

Any advice would be great, thanks.

[GearDownThreeGreen]

It's always very difficult to explain how land an airplane. I have never flown any ATRs, but several other turboprops. I guess one tip can be to maintain a little more power during the start of the flare, and very slowly reduce it until touchdown.

A lot of wing lift is lost on turboprops when you idle/reduce power, so it's important to treat the power levers gently during very final approach/flare.

I can still positively and definitely feel a good precentage of my landings, and I feel no shame.:O

One day you can get all kissers, and the next only hard smackers.

Better get over it. It's just how it is...:ok:

[AT72]

Thanks. I have tried that but the manuals state a slow reduction to flight idle at 20' combined with the flare. I would rather not leave power on due to runway length issues, especially with autumn and winter approaching. Maybe I need to try sitting in a different position, although I am sitting as ATR suggest.

[1jz]

You need to reduce the power slowly, about 2-3 secs. Make sure that you are not low at speed as that is also a factor contributing to firm touchdowns and along with this judge the descent during final flare.

Most of the greasy landings I have are when I round off the airplane smooth and the pitch attitude is near level - a bit nose up. With 72's you need to take care of the long tail and avoid tail strikes so, pitch attitude plays a major role.

First priority should be to touchdown in the required touch down zone then secondly u can concentrate over greasers. But, I wouldn't prefer floating alot either.

[Amadis of Gaul]

So, proper power and pitch management seem to be the key to smooth landings. Phew, glad we got THAT figured out!

[Piltdown Man]

It sounds like you have already achieved perfection. The really important bits are being on speed, stable and in the right spot, so I would not worry.

[AT72]

Thanks all. I generally reduce the power levers to flight idle fairly smoothly and slowly, as I commence the flare, typically around Vref +5 knots. All else being equal, why does a low speed contribute to a firm touch down? I understand that holding it off doesn't help, my best landings seem to have followed a constant pitch attitude in the flare and letting it fly on, rather than driving the main gear in by increasing the pitch.

Maybe the gear settles better with lower pitch attitudes? I have never been near a tail strike, which should require about 8 degrees. Most my landings seem to be around 3-5 degrees at touch down. I don't check but asked the Captain to let me know, just to learn.

Only other things I can come up with are trying to change my seat height and possibly making sure the aircraft is lined up properly with zero drift.

[OhNoCB]

All things being equal, a lower speed will require a greater pitch (AoA in reality) to reduce the rate of decent to the same level than at a faster speed. This is of course essentially why being faster than required will lead to floating, because the same amount of flare can reduce the rate of decent to zero or give a positive rate.

I have never flown the ATR 72, but also make sure you are not flaring too high, as if you flare too high even at the correct speed you're going to end up plonking it on. I know you said you flare at 20' (I have know idea what is normal for the type) but make sure you are actually flaring at the right height, not in anticipation of the right height.

[1jz]

AT72 the most important part of flying is being organised and seat position is a major factor that contributes towards the perception / visual detection of the runway for proper judgement. Make sure that you have the same seat position every time you fly.

If you come to land at AOA closer to stalling angle then the wing has the possibility to stall as well because in ground effect the induced drag reduces and increases the effective AOA and may reach stalling angle. But, am sure that's not the case as you have good enough speed as you talked about it, try be gentle with flare and don't flare too high, YOU CAN LEARN BY BOOKS BUT, CAN'T FLY WITH EM, so 20ft you should start the flare and Adjust as per your judgement as, there are alot of factors that contribute in favour/against less firmer landings like wind, thermals, wind gusts etc.

By the way when you bring the PL back to FI position, there's a drag induced over the props so, if you be gentle with PLs then it would be more advisable.

[AT72]

Thanks. I agree. No where near the stall though, tend to touch down at just below Vref. I think that the gear may compress better at lower pitch angles, though it just feels this way to me, never heard anything about that. It is a trailing link type, or something like that.

Will play around with my seat height a bit. When following ATR's guidance I feel very high. This gives a good view ahead and I can see the panel fully but it just feels wrong. Too high and too far forward. What would sitting high do to the judgement in the flare?

[powerstall]

as far as i can remember, the white ball should be cpvering the red ball. and should be both level. :cool:

[Miserlou]

3000 hours on -72.

Firstly, notice the very brief pause after the reduction in power before you feel the deceleration as the props windmill.

Now, at 20 feet begin the flare as normal. After a very brief pause retard the power levers.
Then the deceleration from the props coincides with the moment you want to touch the ground, killing any float. Once this timing becomes second nature you'll be greasing them on every time.

You can also use the cheat, Pilot Induced Crosswind, as the sudden drag of 4 wheels touching simultaneously can make a perfectly good landing 'feel' like a firmer one.

[NEKEKE]

3000 plus hours on the ATR72:
I think everyone have his own technique.
Mine is the following:
On final leg, seat height adjusted so that the anti glare panel border is level with your eyes height.
Vref+5 max.
Over runway threshold, both TQ 20%.
Wait for the 10' radioaltimeter callout.
Reduce PWR smoothly to idle.
Flare the aircraft with little up and down pitch commands.
For more smoothness, try to touch with one main landing gear before the other one.
This technique allows for short landing run and smooth touchdown.
Best luck.:)

[Miserlou]

AT72,

Seating position according to the white and red balls is for best view of approach lights at minima in low vis conditions. You decide if that seating position is good for you but I advise keeping whatever position you find works best for you.

NEKEKE,

Little up and down movements? That's called over-controlling. You should have noticed by the 3000 hr mark that the aircraft isn't reacting to all of those movements.

Try one smooth increase in back pressure.

[AT72]

Thank you for the help and suggestions, I will give them a try and see how it goes. :)

[1jz]

Another little trick, once you find what seat position works for you, try and memorize the Position with regards to other panels and panel screws etc (eg right arm rest position with respect to the right side panel screws) and make sure you always adjust seat height at the same position for better height judgement (a/c height). You can use the far end / farthest visible part of runway for reference as well. Kisser landings would be a piece of cake but, your priority should be safe landings within the required runway distance and not float half the runway for a kisser. Also to touch down a bit more firm on contaminated / wet runway.

[glendalegoon]

try counting the seconds from crossing the threshold to touchdown...don't look at your clock, just count.

the FAA certifies planes and does everything like reducing speed at 1 knot persecond.

so. if you are at Vref plus 5 and you are allowed to touchdown at Vref minus 5, slowly reduce your speed at 1 knot persecond in the flare envelope.

or just be happy with firm landings where they are supposed to be.