HOUSING

[Apple Tree Yard]

Rumour has it that CX wants to change housing. My response: mess with the stability of my family and I and you will see a sickness rate that will ground the airline overnight. Go ahead...call my bluff. See you in two or three months after I'm back from 'stress leave'. Seriously, push that button. Just give me a reason (well, give me yet another reason ). As soon as I hear Nick has taken a cut in his housing. Otherwise....make my day.

[The Management]

We will fire many pilots with you being the first. Problem solved.How will YOUR FAMILY deal with that?

We don’t care about YOUR FAMILY, We are here to make money and yes we are going after housing, rostering and very low pay rises.

Haven’t you figured it out yet, your threats are meaningless. Next.

The pilot group has no idea how to do contract compliance properly, most don’t want to do it. Every pilot is looking over their shoulder thinking they will stick out if they should try contract compliance.

To My Bonus
(Sent on behalf of “The Management”)

[Apple Tree Yard]

Yes, back in 2001 that was the case. This time round, we'll see. As for me, see you after my sick leave. Fact

[Apple Tree Yard]

Good luck with keeping your check and trainers after that move. And Management...save the predictable comments. Housing is sacrosanct, and it will be THE red line. We'll see though wont we.

[stevieboy330]

No housing = No work
I was seriously considering a "yes" vote on the pay offer, mostly coz I'm sick of all the arguing & negative sentiment, but if this rumor turns out to have any truth to it my "No" vote is a lock!

Everybody should educate themselves on how the boys at Air France are dealing with their situation & grow a pair ! Their pilots have already cost the company $25 million Euro this month by standing their ground.

[Loopdeloop]

I wouldn't worry about the C&T dept too much. Break even would be at the SCN yr 6 point and most of them are at, close to or beyond that.
Given that everyone keeps telling me the housing market's about to crash, it might not be a bad idea!;)

[stevieboy330]

The housing market has been about to crash for the last 10 years!
Most guys who use the housing to cover a mortgage have the repayments maxed out now, so what will they do, just simply sell their house for whatever they can get & go rent in Tung Chung?

[fly123456]

If true, where's the letter?

It should be published on the AoA website.

Anyway, a 25 years grandfathering would be adequate.

What about the captains who were renting at ceiling? I suppose it's okay for them to move out to a place half as small because they were just renting?

Maybe they will offer that 'cash' allowance in London, now that RH is taking a base? :yuk:

[Yonosoy Marinero]

Just vote yes to the pay offer, and watch as CX immediately comes at housing and RPs with a chainsaw...

Why do you think they're such in a hurry for us to accept it?

[Vtwin]

Excellent point.

[iceman50]

Y M

The company is not in a hurry for us to sign it, 9 months after the start of negotiations?

We need to look at the long game they are playing, is this "rumour" to get everyone to vote no? This will save them money and play into their hands as CC is NOT the magical charm a few vocalists think it is.

They have been planning this "attack" on housing for a long time and a cash "allowance" will make us very similar to other HK expats, to spend as you wish.

A new contract anyone?

Swire are NOT fools, treat them like that at your peril.

[monster330]

It's a wind up.

[goathead]

Its a great Wind up love the timing of this one .......mmmmmmm

Swire aren't fools just bully's who have got away with it for a along time

Look at the gazzillions they have lost fighting the 49ers
Base closures etc etc etc
Being A bully you pay the price eventually

[XFR8]

Wind up or not. CX will be phasing out all expat benefits over the coming months and years. The whole shebang is on a downward trajectory.

Get out, while you still can.

[Yonosoy Marinero]

We need to look at the long game they are playing, is this "rumour" to get everyone to vote no? This will save them money and play into their hands as CC is NOT the magical charm a few vocalists think it is.

It's not a rumour, it's what I believe. That said, I'll bet you my overtime that both RPs and Housing are going to come under duress very soon. The sooner that pay raise issue is sorted, the sooner they'll come at it.

And no, a 'NO' vote does not necessarily mean CC. The pressure is on the company to come up with an acceptable offer before they can engage us on RPs, which is their priority, and housing. They're tied by the GFBA too, after all.

The few percent more they could easily give us are nothing compared to the savings they are seeking on productivity.

Oh, look. Pay raise propaganda is item #1 on the management 'wrap-up' again. That's only seven times in a row...

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

It's quite simple, ignore RP's, ignore the next step, ignore all the issues that are being used to cloud this offer....look at the offer and decide if it's good enough or not. Don't just shrug your f***ing shoulders and mutter 'the NC think it's the best we'll get so we may as well take it whilst we can'.

Focus, purely on pay. Is it good enough? Is it not?

just say NO!

[Oasis]

Interestingly, the housing allowance and it being tied to an index is the only thing that protects us from inflation.
If we lose the tie to the index, we will have to fight for a rise year after year for a pay rise, only to break even.

This sucks balls.

[fly123456]

Yeah, isn't funny, how easy all this could be?

If they had offered 4% in January, everyone would have been happy, showing goodwill, saving money, etc...

But no, we had to fight for it. And it's because we had to fight for 9 months, that even if the offer is accepted, most pilots still won't show any sign of goodwill.

Now imagine doing the same for housing.
We'd have to come with benchmarks, show the company that rents are at an absolute high. And we'd have to accept a 20-50% reduction in housing? Maybe go on strike to keep what we have? Just to achieve what? Status quo for us, millions lost for the company?
These managers have absolutely no clue how to get the best productivity out of us.

Look at our brothers in France, Germany and soon Luxemburg.
All the managers achieved there is losing shareholders money, and losing their staff support.

[ChinaBeached]

When C-Scale occurred very few B-Scale guys said much & did far less against it. Those of us who said no voted with our feet: 59/60. All we (like many of you) worked so hard for the "CX Career" & patiently sat by & watched career progression time wasted while waiting 3+ years for the offer promised.... Now when all the predictions rumoured may / probably come true the vitriol & threats are remarkable at best.

The AOA did nothing but for some pitiful lines in the monthly updates.

It didn't affect you/them so you did nothing.

No threats of "sick-outs" or long term "stress leave" to demonstrate against the SEVERE degradation of pilot remuneration, recruitment standards or heaven forbid, housing: the entire crux of C-Scale. Not even a "stern letter" to management. Nothing.

How many pay negotiation talks have similarly been treated with contempt from management?? And then the AOA speaks of CC, & then they sit idle to decide exactly what CC "is"..... Since 1994 it's been the same story.

Now if predictions & rumours come true C-Scale will come to bite. And so many will ask "How did this happen??"

Warham wrote that the only way to protect the present is to protect the future.

Prima Nocta. You're being bred out & didn't see it coming.

[fly123456]

People would be happy without housing allowance... if they were able to get a base!

Be careful: less housing allowance in HK = less incentive for the company to open bases, or to keep them open.

[crwkunt roll]

If they had offered 4% in January, everyone would have been happy, showing goodwill, saving money, etc...
Or if they just imposed it like they did for every other employeee.

[fly123456]

Exactly.

And why do you think the manager on charge (DFO) decided for no pay raise for the last couple of years?

No, it's not to save money for the company in a difficult time, or for the shareholders. It's just for his own bonus!
Now, how much money in lost opportunities (cancelled flights) did this cost?

[SOPS]

I don't understand how Cathay expects people to live happily in Hong Kong with no housing. Ok, I know all the I cadets are doing it, but they aren't " normal" yet. ( wife, kids, lack of big jet syndrome). I don't get it.

[Soul planet]

http://www.scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/980w/public/2013/08/23/93872da564f4b1cbefed482639475b74.jpg?itok=AYz_xbdD

Welcome to Hongkey town, where you and your future kids will live in this pollution jungle.

[cpahka]

HKG is dying, seriously thinking off to sandpit then:yuk:

[plainpilot11]

The same thing will happen with housing that is happening with pay.

There will be just enough added again to the SO HKPA to get 550 of them to vote in a decrease for the rest of the gang. That's the way it's working now, that's the way it's going to work for housing.

Unless you figure out a way to inform the 550 most junior members of your workforce who have never played this game, and quickly, that they're in the big leagues now, this workforce will continue to enjoy degrading conditions of service for years to come. No thanks to the current "association," we'll see if the next ones have the wherewithall to stand firm. It's trial by fire, boys.

It's like walking into a shop in Bali, and looking at a t-shirt, which the gal announces is for sale for 400 USD. Do you take the first offer? You NEVER take the first offer, folks. Never. Especially in light of current conditions!

[bangout]

I wouldn't be so sure, there is a lot more solidarity in their ranks than the others

[SloppyJoe]

The main reason HKPA should not be included in pay offers, just like housing. Both should be negotiated as separate issues. Only those eligible for the benefit should be allowed to vote on said benefit. Lumping in HKPA with pay is setting a precedent and housing will follow.

Any pay deal with either HKPA or housing should be instantly thrown out.

The time will come when an increase to HKPA and a decrease in housing are voted for in the same motion by all members.

[ChinaBeached]

I think you give the SO body too much credit. They lined up in droves begging for a shiny jet job when C-Scale Mk I didn't have housing at all.

What do you think will happen in the very near future when those on C-Scale are in the majority and they hold the balance of power when it comes to voting and numbers?

[AndontcallmeShirley]

The SO's are the only one playing this game properly.

Out of my SO friends Kiwi'sOz/Brits/Locals/Canadians I think we are around 90% No for this pay offer. We see what the company are trying to do but we have a lot less to lose than full housing guys with time in so we can afford to stand our ground and support you even though these days you need us a lot more than we need you (this is not meant to be divisive, just statement of fact). We don't work G days and we call in sick when we are tired or otherwise f@cked off. We discuss things on Facebook where people feel they can contribute and educate each other and have an opinion rather than going on the AOA boards and getting shot down by a 20 year Captain who has the political nous of a baked potato, purely on the basis we have only been here 5 minutes. We understand a lot more than you guys realise. You should be looking at your B Scale friends and asking them what they see going forwards if they vote Yes because they don't want to rock the boat.

ChinaBeached: If this contract does stay as a sh1t sandwich most of us take our wide body hours to a better airline whilst still in our mid/late 20's. Most of us lined up for a job when the world was up **** street and it offered a guaranteed salary and career progression. If the contract improves great, if not we are here as a stepping stone as per the plan. Half my friends are JFO's on a 777/330 in their mid 20's. Yeh, we're all completely stupid!

[Tres cool]

It's in our best interest to keep YOUR housing?

I would have thought it was in EVERYONE's best interest to keep expat housing 4 years ago? But thanks for trying I guess :ugh:

Guess what, B scale housing is going to be cut to pieces at some stage in the not to distant future, whether this current proposal gets voted in or out.

I would start living on a budget and pouring money into the war chest so when the cut comes, it's not too deep. If you need help with tips living on a budget, just chat with your SO next time you are at work.

[Tres cool]

And yes when C scale has the voting power china beached, we will likely fold and vote in OUR best interest and eat the old so to speak, after years of being given less. But maybe we could all actually work together before then.

[ChinaBeached]

Shirley - yes you are.

You accepted a job that crapped on the contracts, terms and conditions of the rest of the pilot body you all so proudly "Facebook" amongst each other.

Shiny Jet Syndrome at it's peak. Golly gee whiz.... My mates are JFOs on pretty jets. When was the last time you hand flew a an NDB approach at night, breaking off in the circling area to land after being offset 90 deg? My point? These are skills you decided you don't want or need and instead took a short cut and impatiently and greedily undercut the market to take a job that those of us with the experience and credentials turned down.

Those 20 year Capts you have the audacity to mock are the ones who have more experience about HK and CX than you will ever be able to "tweet" about. Your arrogance reeks only slightly more than your petulant nature. (Look it up).

So CX is a stepping stone? So where are you going to take your P2X hours to? ICAO does't recognise them. But of course you all knew that and understood the ramification of this before signing...... They're only valid within the CX through a CAD dispensation. So your Facebook buddies are JFO's reverse high 5-ing at Shek O beach while playing volley ball..... So when they have > 4000 hrs TT they "MAY" be competitive for an interview at EK, EY or QR. Friends of mine work at all 3 now and without those type of hours you're simply not competitive with respect to other candidates.

If not for you and your Facebook buddies such threats on the terms & conditions, as per this thread, of the general pilot body would not exist.

Quickly post this to Facebook so your buddies can best decide on the direction CX should take and how you all should vote. Hurry!!!!! (Too many characters to tweet - apologies.)

[ChinaBeached]

Tres: I wish you were right.

Past behaviour is the best indicator of future behaviour.

[404 Titan]

Silberfuchs

You and I I'm pretty sure are roughly of the same vintage at CX but if memory serves me correctly, for our first two years in Hong Kong we received 50% of the zonal housing allowance then 100% after that irrespective of our rank. At the time I joined that equated to HK$18000 per month for the first two years. The housing allowance also wasn't based on official HK government housing figures but on average housing allowances paid out by CX to expat employees. I think it was reviewed every six months rather than monthly as it is done now also.

[Access denied]

Tres Cool,

It's posts like yours that help convince the FO/CN sitting on the fence for the pay deal to vote YES! I was thinking of voting NO, but you have helped me see that people such as yourself most certainly would throw me under the bus if given the chance.

I think it's very unfair that I wasn't given a big chunk of money when I left Adelaide like you guys were, but I accept that was the contract I signed so I won't be fighting to have part of your salary deducted and put into my account to make up for it.

One day you will be the majority, but that will be years away still. Maybe you should stop crying like a baby and appreciate that you have absolutely won the lottery by getting straight onto a widebody, without paying for your training and not having to do the grind in GA/regionals/military.

[AndontcallmeShirley]

ChinaBeached...

I wasnt brand new when I joined and I have my share of war stories in everything upto single pilot twin turbine ops. Ive done a lot of other jobs within the industry too not just flying. I am sure I could show you a thing or two about a thing or two if you'd pull your head out if your ass long enough to listen, as too could a lot of current SOs. And IF I was brand new so ******* what? Cadets have operated 737's etc straight out of flying school for as long as ive been around in good airlines. You are calling them stupid because they want to sit in a 777? Best take that 210 job in the NT and turn down the 777 career gig because thats going to be best in the long run? Pull your head out!! You're pissed off because they have it easier. Dont hate the player hate the game because you would have done the exact samw thing in their shoes and if you wouldnt you either a) came from money or b) are lying. Best be sure to slate all of our ex RAF guys too while you're at it.... They were obviously distracted by tweeting about how to log their P2X to see how **** the package was. And they are worth so much more!!

So you turned C scale down, good for you. Pehaps next time I turn down a job offer when im unemployed you can tell my wife and children that I was right to do it because I was really just being impatient, greedy and undercutting the market by accepting it. Maybe if I waited long enough B-Scale would return. I am sure my Mrs and kids would understand that when I was signing on every month. When the world hits the skids, packages drop. Not rocket science its called market forces and no amount of integrity will change that. Read an economics textbook. You don't have a single ******* clue about peoples situations and reasoning and your arrogance jumps off the page.

And yes Lets blindly listen to the Captains who have watched market forces and weak leadership get us from A scale to C Scale tell us how to fight management. Flightdeck= Yes. Generally, TONS of respect for their opinions. Industrial relations= Ill take you on your merits. Thats not arrogance its common sense.

To the rest of the CX pilots, I don't think I am only speaking for myself when I say in general new guys have a lot of respect for your experience and abilities and we are keen to listen. I certainly do, and I think you will be pleasantly surprised when the **** hits the fan over housing because we realise it affects us too so we will stick with you regardless.

You think you are a shining light of moral intengrity but in all likelihood you are a self righteous cock who thinks he has the right to question other peoples decisions and reasoning. Walk a mile in my shoes and then tell me im a child. Your arrogance is astounding.

[Long Dong Silver]

AndontcallmeShirley,

thanks for that. Glad someone put him in his place...

[goathead]

Tres and Shirley
Are you ' c scale' ? If you are , then what are you doing commentating on the thread ' housing' , you did not sign for it when you joined.period.
What are you doing here commentating on it
Do you see me going after A scale fixed benefit pension ?
Is it your sense of entitlement thats causing you to comment on something that you did not sign up for or what?? Please enlighten me

[ChinaBeached]

Justify your decision to accept a contract FAR below the greater pilot body as you wish. Yet you blame those who ho went before you for C-Scale?? And I'm arrogant? You made your decision & sold out. Full stop.

Market forces??!! YOU are the force behind this micro economic culture of CX! YOU & your Facebook buddies were presented with the sh!t sandwich, begged to eat it & say thank you for it daily. You even justify the flavour via forums like these. Had none of you have taken it then there would be no DEMAND for what they are SUPPLYING. Supply & demand. Heard of it? How am I going with the economics?

I'll agree & apologise for the misrepresentation that all iCadets have zero experience. However the majority do not. RAF guys? Yep, met a few of them. Not one however had actively been flying or had begun flight training back in the UK. That's not to say others had or were. They were made redundant prior to flight training (the several whom I've met).

How are you going to justify your decision to your wife & kids you ask? Dunno fella. I'd start with an apology though. When your wife & kids are stuck in a 500-600 sq ft apartment in the NT's living on a single C-Scale income, housing a pittance of other expat contracts & industries, housing NOT factored to the housing market hence an ever depreciating figure in real terms, considering kids' education costs also...... Retirement on that income & trying to raise a family???

Yep: start with an apology.

Dong: Yeah, I've been put in my place all right: an airline job that I EARNED without under cutting my colleagues while paying me what I deserve. Best you get back to the reverse high 5's with Shirley. You made your bed, I made mine. Biggest difference is that I didn't crap on the industry or colleagues to get here.

[NoseGear]

That is the TRUTH spoken.....and I'll refrain from any A Few Good Men quotes about truth and handling it etc etc....epic post:D:D :ok:

[AndontcallmeShirley]

Simple question... You're unemployed, struggling to make ends meet and your offered a job like this. You honestly turn it down because you're worth better? I bet you're a privately educated only child from money aren't you? And I would bet all of my C-scale salary that you're single (maybe you could put it towards another oversized Breitling??) One mans rags is another mans riches and you show no appreciation for that nor personal circumstance borne from necessity. Youre only interested in ramming your opinion down everybodys throats to prove youre better than the rest of us. I wont comment any further because if by any chance we ever met and you had the spine which you speak of to say this the conversation wouldn't be very long and even at a able of B-Scalers they would all be telling you to pipe down. As will I. Seeing we have zero common ground ill leave this now to go work on my NDB's on flight sim so hopefully one day ill be as good as you.

goathead: I initially commented on this thread because it related to an incorrect assumption made about SO's which putting right may or may not help you in your future plans, i.e whether or not we were likely to shaft you in any upcoming divisive pay offer/housing etc. I'm sorry if this post on this public bulletin board offends you. Believe it or not it was an attempt to help you in your forward planning. In the future i'll be sure not to have an opinion on anything that doesnt affect me whether that be the notams below FL200 or whether Man U played well at the weekend. Ill be a good boy.

[sorvad]

AnddontcallmeShirley....you're absolutely on the mark...but don't expect any of the holier than thou malcontents on here to change their tune...they pretend they're all out for the greater good, but the reality is that they want to feather their own nests....just like we all do...it's just that they can afford to do so without too much jeopardy. The reality is, most of them joined during a prolonged period of industrial unrest too when those senior to them bemoaned them for being responsible for eroding everyone's T's & C's by joining on B scales....did they care?...did they F**k...because they recognised that the job was better than most others available to them..they made the most of the job market at the time....just like you have...it's very easy for them to accuse you in your 500 sq ft shoebox of jeopardising their housing while they sit in their 2000 sq ft villa's paid for by the company to the tune of $75,000 a month....Ivory towers spring to mind.
All I can say is make the most of whatever you've got , enjoy it , and sod everyone who blames you for their woes

[Bangaluru]

Shirley,

Good man. Well said. I'm B scale but I'd have taken what you did in a heartbeat for the same reasons you did. I dare say EVERYBODY would have. It's every man for himself here.

Although I agree that previous experience in small aeroplanes is invaluable. It's not what is sensible career wise/financially when CX offers what they did in the way of free training etc.

Get your FO job and keep your eyes open for a better deal. I know you will.

[kmagyoyo]

Which one is it guys? Your leaving for greener pastures or your sticking around to outvote B scales? They're mutually exclusive.

[McNugget]

No, they aren't.

Those greener pastures may await our newly anointed JFOs soon. For the rest, well, they have potentially years of voting before the same opportunities arrive.

That said, it's not my style (nor the LEP body as a whole) to separate the workforce into factions, but ultimately, the LEP workforce will be the dominant one within the AOA, and they have the GC membership to represent them.

Everyone needs to come to the realisation that a UNION is a body representing a unified body, not sub-representing the various factions within, as an individual concern.

Expats will have the full support of the (highly unified) LEP group, but for that to happen, they need to feel that they have the support of the expat pilot group.

Sounds fair enough.

Goathead- it's not about going after anyone's stuff. We all need to stick up for each other and understand the impact of what we're separately concerning ourselves with;

I (an LEP) want the best possible housing outcome for expats. It puts upward pressure on our terms, so it does involve me.

You ought to fight for better LEP terms, as those terms put downward pressure on yours, and I believe it to be in your best interest to minimise the discrepancy. To that end, I would state that HKPA terms & negotiations also involve the expats.

Be assured, however, that although you'll hear most of us may be looking elsewhere, but if conditions improve, LEPs will stay. I reckon most would like to stay if it is viable. It's a dreadful industry for job seekers, and CX is far from the worst. The only complaint you'll hear resonating time and time again from us is that we will be unable to accommodate a family in HK when that time comes. That has to change, and it will, lest hundreds leave the company each year when the time comes. What we must collectively ensure is that what we get offered to stem that flow minimises the downward pressure exerted on the expat package.

Consequently as a group, we're not short-sighted enough to just sell out our peers over a few measly dollars. It's in everyone's collective interests to look out for each other's benefits.

A Scale allowed B Scale to happen. B Scale allowed C Scale to happen. What's done is done. I believe CX has found the floor, and will be intent on bringing everyone down to it/in that direction.

[bushbum]

I understand that generally most LEP/HKPA pilots are not out to undermine B or A scale conditions. And most B or A scale are very keen to see an increase to the HKPA as well. I think one thing that unites us is Housing, be it HKPA or Expat even if they are completely different in $ terms. We both want to see an increase in HKPA and while no changes to Expat allowances.

So my question is, if we all vote a united NO on the pay proposal, based on the small HKPA increase, what do you expect to achieve in subsequent negotiations?

And what is to say the HKPA pilots won't undermine the A and B scale pilots in the future, regardless of this vote outcome?

[ChinaBeached]

Sorvad - your history of posts shows a distinctive trend: name calling and that everything is excusable due "personal circumstance": from G-Day workers to all manner of other topics. Your stouches with "Yeager" spring to mind.

For the record (and feel free to read my history of posts on the topic) when I was offered C-Scale I was never on easy street. I was living pay cheque to pay cheque and saving what and where I could for my expected / promised move to HK. I looked into every sentence, paragraph, chapter and verse of the contract given to me. I sought independent financial advice from sources in HK to see if the contract was workable LONG TERM. All advice given was that it simply wasn't. So why waste ?? years at CX only be use it as a stepping stone to re-join at the bottom of a seniority list somewhere else? I spoke to friends at CX all saying the same and what it would mean for LONG TERM pressure on the pilot T&C's generally. Unmistakably C-Scale is and was wrong all accounts. C-Scale is NOT a better job than the others out there. I and many others who turned it down are living proof and can attest to it.

The 3+ years I was in limbo waiting for the promised offer was nothing but shear HELL. Working short term contract jobs anywhere I could get them in order to bide my time: treated like crap as all of the contract guys were by way of rosters, routes and general conditions. Only after I turned C-Scale down was I able to plan for a future and then interview for a career job. No short cuts and no undermining anywhere.

And the ivory tower you accuse me of living in has been built brick by ivory bloody brick with hard work, study, determination and patience. If that offends you then I'll wait for your reply and name calling..... And Shirley: yes, I have my pretty Breitling. Such a pleasure to wear when you earn the privilege to afford to do so. Shall I tell you about my Patek Phillipe or my holiday bungalow? You'd be amazed what hard work, credentials, experience, determination and patience can get. And no, we won't meet for a drink. I visit 7/11's only rarely for a quick soft drink as I pass by when in HK. But if by chance we were at a bar that didn't require Groupon coupons and with my B-Scale friends I know they'll be telling you the same. Keeping the peace on the flightdeck while you guys all rant about how tough the C-Scale package is to live on, hearing you justify your decision, how you're going to tell CX to shove it and run to EK, etc, etc.... is one thing. Doing it socially at a bar and expecting the same tolerance and patience is definitely another.

As said before, B-Scale did not lower the standards (recruitment and other) to what C-Scale has. B-Scale did not prevent pilots from securing a financially responsible career for them and their families. B-Scale did not lower the global applicant experience levels to zero hours. B-Scale did not lower interview questions to "Tell us what your parents think about you becoming a pilot" (as per another's interview experience shared on this web site). B-Scale did not cut the training from 14 FFS's for DESO's with 1000's of hours experience to 6 for iCadets applying with zero experience. Harp on as you wish regarding A to B Scale but the differences from A-B and then B-C are lightyears apart by way of severe detrimental affects on a pilot's long term career and financial security at CX.

Bangaluru: No. Not "EVERYBODY". 59 out of 60 of us on the hold file immediately as C-Scale was offered said NO to C-Scale. 98.33% said NO.

Your comment of "it's every man for himself here" speaks volumes.

Silber: Some airlines will accept a maximum of 500 hrs of the P2X rating. This is their uniform approach to other airlines operating with SO's such as QF. But to be competitive for a position at EK, EY or QR you're going to need a recognisable circa 4000 hrs TT. I do not doubt for one instant the comments you make about your friend. However he must have had close to or more hours than fresh CPL when joining CX. If 6 years ago he would most likely have been a DESO which means he would have had close to those hours already (plus Command time) to even interview for CX for the DESO position. (When I interviewed the min TT was 2500 hrs ex military guy, max was around 6500 hrs TT. All of us had > 1000 hrs Command time. All but one had jet experience and the one that didn't was a turboprop Capt).

I've many, many friends at CX who are worried and see the pressures that C-Scale has undeniably placed on their contracts. The evidence is this entire thread and your latest AOA update. How so many of you can pat the backs of those placing undeniable pressures on your own career and financial security is amazing.

[fly123456]

China,

It's sad we couldn't count on your experience because of the ****e deal the company decided to implement.

C-scale pilots,

You believe B-scale pilots shouldn't have let C-scale happen?
I'm with you here.
But that would have been to Chinabeached's benefit (and to others with extensive experience), not yours.
Do you think CX would have offered you free training if they still had access to candidates with more than 3000h?

[McNugget]

You, in a self-righteous way, do make some valid points. At the same time, you come out with some real drivel. I'm not going to pick your post apart point by point, as you seem to enjoy doing.

What I will say, is that despite the bulk of your rants being emotive rubbish, I do agree with some of what you say, but ultimately, we took an offer that was the best available at the time. Just like others did before they got to what they consider to be their career airlines.

It came with a great lifestyle, great roster, good experiences, and an upgrade in short order (in the grand scheme of things) to a position as a wide body long-haul pilot. Then, you're well placed to move on if you so wish. No different in concept to the way you built experience, flying GA/contract/regional etc. before committing to your career airline. Just like your experience building, it may not have the terms and conditions to be a career outfit, but it was better than what else was on offer as a low-hours pilot back home. Such is life. US$85k as a year one SO is a lot better than most starter jobs, and getting US$100k as a lump sum to retain me until about the time I am marketable elsewhere was a nice kicker, too. So, you tell me who's the fool for taking it on the way up?

Get over the fact that it didn't work out for you. Claiming that we are responsible for the downward pressure on expat conditions is nothing short of hysteria. The fact is that B scale pilots let it happen. There is no two ways about it. Those at the bottom of the ladder will do what they need to - take poor jobs, take uncertain jobs, take badly paid jobs, et al to get the experience necessary to move on. Those at the 'top' of the ladder, ie. those in career positions are the ones responsible for protecting their conditions. Not those on the outside.

I'm eager for more housing. I will almost certainly stay if that becomes more reasonable. However, I don't consider my conditions to be poor in comparison to the rest of the industry. Inadequate housing, indeed. But, I will soon be a QL'd FO, my package will be around six figures per month in HKD, averaged over the year. Housing aside, anyone in the industry would agree that such a package is a very competitive one financially. So, it seems, in most respects, C-scale is a better job than most out there, particularly when you consider one could be in that position less than four years after starting, and still be in their early twenties. Again, as an experience building job, which will make you very marketable in the future, I will strongly disagree with anyone who says it isn't a great stepping stone at least. Let's face it, most 'career' destinations will offer a pretty heavy pay cut for a QL'd FO. You'll have a bigger house back home, I agree.

I assume now, that you're going to go on about how we should all be flying BE-200s on non-precision approaches etc. to build experience. That would be great, I'd love to do it. But, the market has spoken, and nobody cares or values such experience anymore. It's sad, but airlines want folks with airline experience. International ops, type-ratings, all the academic/procedural background that goes with it. This has taken precedence over physical flying ability. I suppose you think that's our fault, too.

So, much as most of us would like to do the low-paid GA fun flying for a while, we're not stupid enough to do so at the expense of our careers. For those that wish to leave when they can, this is their golden ticket. BE-200 time doesn't cut it anymore; we have to do what it takes to ensure the success of our careers. Not sure if you're up to date with the EU market right now, but sadly even Q400 captains can't get a look-in with jet operators for the most part. It's disgusting, I agree, but you've got to do what it takes. Times are very different to even 5 years ago.

Before you lambast me with your emotive presumptions, because you seem to care so much - I joined with experience, I have 3 properties, and my watch collection comprises of 8 pieces, all of which far better (and, as it happens at least twice the price of) than the tacky, tinny Breitling Aerospace quartz powered heap that folks like you show up to work with. Such a pleasure to wear when you earn the privilege to afford to do so.

[AnAmusedReader]

Good luck to the BA applicants.

Perhaps that will make the DFO revisit his words when the HKPA came in. He said something like 'We will revisit it when we have to , when market forces dictate.'

[McNugget]

I don't think many HKPA guys are competitive for this BA intake. Still a year or so before there are sufficient numbers of guys with 1000 hrs as a JFO to cause any eyebrows to raise.

[Arfur Dent]

Cathay used to set trends and was a 'market force' - now it just follows what others do. No innovation, no investment in the future or its' people. Led by 'yes men' who are terrified of their own shadows and afraid to upset the apple cart.
Yes, they get paid well and rewarded for their loyalty to Swires in London but, well managed (or managed at all!), this Company could be so much better.
Ex DFO - now 'Director People' - what a joke!:mad:

[AndontcallmeShirley]

Sorry, I couldn'r resist...

The 3+ years I was in limbo waiting for the promised offer was nothing but shear HELL. Working short term contract jobs anywhere I could get them in order to bide my time: treated like crap as all of the contract guys were by way of rosters, routes and general conditions.

From where I am sitting you've just done your own C-Scale without even knowing it. Why didn't you march into the Chief Pilots office and demand equitable treatment... Or leave because you're allowing the industry to degrade your skills?

Hypocrite much?

(Ok, I am done now. I'm too busy working my 3rd job to spend time arguing on the internet)

[ChinaBeached]

I thought assumptions made you an ass, as you put it Shirley??

The "C-Scale" I created for myself? You really are miraculously naive as to other options in the world's international airline sector. I took jobs to maintain employment, maintain my flying skills & currency, and progress in experience. I took contract jobs accordingly in order to bide my time for the promised CX job. I didn't interview for any job (contract or other) that was of a lower standard in terms & conditions of the pilot body or recruitment standards. (Often higher standards & better pay due the short term nature). The treatment of us by definition of a being a contractor and hence without a seniority number, and as a foreigner, the relocating around the globe, RP's etc was damn hard. Some places better than others. If you took the time to research before ass-ing around with assumptions you'd see what widebody contracts pay around the world and the airlines associated.

And for for the record I did request and met with CX Recruitment Management (KC to be precise) about C-Scale. It was in (her) exact office where I said no.

Try as you will to bring me down to your level & to justify your actions. But for your actions & choices threats like this one on housing at CX would not be so prevalent.

Hypocrite? No. You just put as much effort into your rebuttals as you do your long term career planning. Aim before you shoot. You're the cheapest ass in a seat: literally. You know it, I know it.

[McNugget]

You said it, CB. Nobody else. You also said you lived paycheque to paycheque, before you edited that bit out.

Get on with your own life.

[missingblade]

You lot get my vote for most pathetic self justifying zero achieving thread on pprune ever!

Grow up!

[ChinaBeached]

McNugget: re-read post #56. No editing. Just your poor comprehension and shoot from the hip mentality. I'll await your apology, but that would take integrity.

You defend C-Scale because it's what you did. Emotional? No denying it. And for reasons that you can't fathom when all you worked for for so long was crapped on. You are part of the problem, not the solution despite your robust self adoration. (Have you seen what actually goes in to make McNuggets????? Quite apt I think).

Curtain Rod & Missing Blade: Agreed. I'll leave it here.

[Flying Clog]

What Rod said :D

[goathead]

Shirley
You just be a good boy and read the paper
Hows this
You write a motion proposing company wide CC for all to have Housing !
Ill second it if you do , seriously!
Goat

[betpump5]

Remember this, in the event of a miracle that a No vote is passed, It will be the Icadets you can thank.Read between the lines guys. These guys have been playing the game better in the last 2-4 years than any of us whinging muppets have in the last 12 years.

Sticking together, never work Gs, go sick when they want (on top of the 18 Gs a month), and will F-off when the magic 1500 is entered in the log book after 5-6 years of joining this circus.

Whilst we will still be moaning like a bunch of baby cats.

[monster330]

What's Facebook?

[744drv]

FB is a web based tool that allows disparate groups, or individuals, to unite towards a common aim. It can also be used to tell the world what colour panties you are wearing .... which is how the pilot body in CX can probably make best use of it.

[broadband circuit]

Are they using Yammer as well?

[CISTRS]

Broadband...
You know that Yammer is only authorised by CX for discussion of spiky hairstyles.

[Kitsune]

Ooohhh... the schadenfreude of listening to 'B' Scalers like China Beached bleating and whining about 'C' Scalers undercutting their terms and conditions... it's just too delicious. :cool:

[XFR8]

And yet another FH thread descends into farce .....

[MACH.88]

Everyone should step back and take a deep breath. This back and forth is not doing any of us any good. There is a common enemy and we are not it, so stop behaving that way. What is done is done, there is no point fighting amongst ourselves about it. Let's try and fix this train set one bit at a time. Re read Rod's last post.

As well, don't let history make you a defeatist. Now is the time to effect change. Now is the time we are gaining a bit of an edge. Let's use this to our advantage and ply a bit of the company's grip from our wallets and our lives.

VOTE NO! STAND AND REMAIN UNIFIED FOR THE GREATER GOOD!

MACH.88:cool: