Rostering Insanity!

[KRMQQ]

Crew Control: "Ah but it's legal"

Wonder if our fare paying passengers would get on the aircraft if they saw our rosters?

CX905 (https://iconnect.cathaypacific.com/f5-w-687474703a2f2f696e74726163782e636174686179706163696669632e63 6f6d$$/CRS/servlet/EnquireMayfly?Request=CrewList&Action=roster&stdate=20141012&fltno=0905&sectorfr=HKG&sectorto=MNL) HKG MNL 777 20:50 22:00 00:05
CX904 (https://iconnect.cathaypacific.com/f5-w-687474703a2f2f696e74726163782e636174686179706163696669632e63 6f6d$$/CRS/servlet/EnquireMayfly?Request=CrewList&Action=roster&stdate=20141013&fltno=0904&sectorfr=MNL&sectorto=HKG) MNL HKG 777 05:20 07:20 07:50

Off duty (so to speak!) at 00:35 and back in the seat 5hrs 15 min later. Minus the 30 min each way by bus to the hotel.
Total rest = 3hrs 45 min.

Why does the HK CAD allow this insanity?

[crwkunt roll]

Yeah it's called a Split Duty and nobody gives a sh1t apparently.

[FERetd]

KRMQQ,

Don't be too concerned. Split duties are only going to be used on the odd occasion. Split duties will not be normal rostering practice.

I know that because that's what they told us when I was on the Tristar!

Trust me!

[SASKATOON9999]

Wake up and smell the coffee - better still, drink a cup on the 2hr sector and have a good rest in the first class cabin before flying the 2hr sector back!

[goathead]

KRMQQ
Why dont you ask the CAD ?
No point right ! Waist of time and effort
You wont get a reply or sensible at the least .....
Someone has got someone in there backpocket

[BuzzBox]

Some of you lot need to get over yourselves. Split Duties have been around for at least 20 years and aren't likely to disappear any time soon.

A Split Duty is one continuous duty period, not two separate duties. The 'rest' in the middle is used to extend the FDP, the same way as in-flight rest is used to extend the FDP.

[binzer]

What was your rest before and after,, then we may be able to get an idea of what you're complaining about

[ACMS]

What a complaining bunch if pussies.:D

We've all had to endure split duties for 20 years and IT'S NOTHING NEW.

You can fly ULH in a noisy bumpy dry Aircraft getting 3 to 6 hours in a crappy bunk yet you somehow cannot fly to MNL and get 3 to 6 hours in a quiet cool comfortable stable hotel bed................

What's the difference???

For gods sake get a grip.

Apart from it being a waste of 2 days and very unproductive I know which one I'd rather do, it ain't the ULH....

[AQIS Boigu]

Sorry ACMS...you must be the "1%" of CX pilots who like split duties.

How about we go HKG-BKK-HKG-MNL 12-14hrs off in the hotel and the next day do the same pattern in reverse. Very efficient (as efficient as regional flying can be) and not a waste of two days.

I know which one I'd rather do...and it ain't the split duty!!!

[raven11]

Here's the rub....

The cabin crew get a compulsory day off following any split duty....

Hmmmm....do they get more tired than the two schmucks in the cockpit? Why the double standard?

I also noticed a nice shinny "new" ISM room in dispatch.....well, well, well....

I'm still waiting for a "old" captain's room....

Why the double standard?

Everywhere we fly long haul, the cabin crew get twice the rest the pilot's do.....

Again, why the double standard?

ACMS, do you think it's ok to have two sets of standards? It's not us being pussie's....it's a question of CX respecting their pilots as much as they apparently respect their cabin crew.

And if it's not already obvious, it's another reason why Cathay needs to institute a pilot get-well program.

There is a lot that needs fixing....

[Bob Hawke]

Raven,

My dear chap. The reason is they don't want us...they don't care about us, they don't even know us. We don't exist except in the guise of piddly pointy end personnel that complain to much about the crew meals, crew rest, poor uniforms, salaries, rosters, medicals, training (opps Checking!), bed bugs, coffee from the 1940s floor scrapings and hats.

Get yourself a red blouse, a hello kitty dongle thingy bobby, lots of hand lotion and five words of "engrish" stringed together for dispatch greetings and you would earn some respect.

[betpump5]

Sorry. Have I been living under a rock for the past 10 years. The MNL split duty has been here since I have. Why only now the complaint?

Or has a based 777 guy with 20 Gs a month living a cushy roster suddenly had to work for a living?

[Soul planet]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Chinese_Opera%3B_Makeup.jpg


RESPECT!

[bm330]

Bet..


The only complaint you'll ever hear about split duties from based crew is the brutal lack of efficiency when doing them. Spending three days in Hkg to fly 3 or 4 hours when the company is so short handed to start with is unacceptable. Split duties for based guys are DAY trips and usually involve watching TV for a few hours, not trying to scratch out a nights sleep.


BTW- Based guys get the same G days as everyone else.

[oriental flyer]

I'm with ACMS on this one , the hotel in MNL is pretty nice and I actually do get some sleep vs tossing and getting bounced around in the bunk on a long haul
Then for the return trip it's only 2 hours , If any of you want to swap a NY for a MNL split consider it done

[letsfly75]

Wow, I wish an 11 hour overnight duty was the worst of my complaints about rostering. It probably wouldn't enter my top 10.

[Arfur Dent]

Did one of these as an AL a while ago! Slight delay and we were in to discretion. Checker filled in all the forms for us. There are some good men out there!:ok:

[The Management]

This is a very tight pattern WRT flight duty limitations however we receive very little paperwork for Commanders Discretion.

Most Captains and First Officers do not realize they are going into discretion and don’t trouble oneself with filling out the paperwork for Commanders Discretion (the flight crew don’t keep track of their duty time). We like this lack of attentiveness in our flight crew, going that extra mile to get the job done.

If Commanders Discretion were not used, Scheduling would have to change the pattern or use outport crew but most Captains are very dedicated to “The CPG” and don’t bother with such small details that could hinder our operation.

We thank you for a job well done.

To My Bonus
(Sent on behalf of “The Management”)

[fly123456]

Of course, I'd rather do a split MNL than a ULH.

The problem is you need to do 20 of them to get to 84h.

Conclusion: I'd rather do 3 JFK than a month of MNL split...

[Arfur Dent]

Once again - good info from The Management. Pay VERY close attention to FDP because it's easy to slip into discretion without even realising.
Get that paperwork flooding in and maybe 'they' will have to think again.
ie You can bitch and moan all day here but if this pattern produces discretion reports by the hundreds or - even better - pilots go back to the Hotel for 10 hours (actually over 11:15) then CC would start to feel the heat and the pattern would be modified.

[CXtreme]

To my knowledge, split duty's was approved by CAD during a time when the growth of aircraft numbers filled parking space at Kai Tak. Approval was given for split duty's to relief parking bays. Due to the obvious advantages CX management just let it roll over when Chek Lap Kok opened, by which time it was seen as "normal" to crews.

[Flying Phoenix]

Sorry it is a split duty. That's the only legal way around this.

[airplaneridesrfun]

Many airlines have agreements with their unions allowing split duties, but the contract wording just talking about split (continuous, stand up, etc). Is thicker than our entire contract! Normally, individual pilots would have to nominate themselves to do split duties, and the credit is based on half the duty. I.e, 12 hours duty = 6 hours pay, even if you only fly to TPE and back. Seems reasonable to me.

[404 Titan]

Flying Phoenix
Sorry it is a split duty. That's the only legal way around this.
With all due respect it isn’t a split duty. Silberfuchs is quite correct and I strongly advise you to re-read 7.1.14.3 Para A again very closely. It only becomes a split duty when the rest in the hotel is used to extend the FDP. In this case it isn’t and is only a Normal FDP. The company could legally leave us at the airport if they wanted to. While I personally don’t like the pattern, 2-3 hours in the hotel is far better than sitting around the airport which is a dump. Having said all that if the flight is delayed and normal FDP needs to be extended, CC can advise you it is now a Split Duty and your max FDP is now 12:45 hrs/mins as long as you had 3 hrs in the hotel.

[OK4Wire]

3 hrs in the hotelI am not in the habit of correcting you, but I'm sure you mean 3 hrs "REST".

Sometimes that's the same as "in the hotel" and other times it can mean "in the room".

All comes down to the definition of "rest" and "repose", I guess. My dictionary says it means "dignified calmness" or "absence of movement". I don't think I have ever experienced that in Manila!

[XFR8]

17.3
In the case of split duty, it pretty much means in the room. I.e. Excludes travelling time, post and pre flight duties.

Not convinced you can turn a regular duty into a split duty. The regular duty is just that and doesn't include any rest. #justsaying

[Numero Crunchero]

404titan
As you correctly said - it is not a split.

The flight can be delayed about 5hrs without using Split duty provisions or discretion. Eg using the original posters times and keeping it all Local, signon at 850pm - 5hr delay so new pushback time 3am - blocks on MIA 5am. Original MIA departure blocks was 520am - say it is delayed to 6am(ie one hr turnaround) - you blocks on HK at 8am. That is 11:10 minutes after signon. Duty allowed 11:15(acclimatised)

So there is no way you can use split duty to recover a delay in this case! I am sure you can extrapolate from the above to see that!

ok4wire
Rest is defined as sleep or repose, but under the Split duty provisions it is all time that is NOT pre/post flight duties or traveling. So walk in to walk out of the hotel.

Lastly - FDP is from signon to blocks on - not end of duty. That starts 30mins(usually) after blocks on.

As I said I am using the original posters times - I can't recall what the usual block to block time is nor pattern timing but you get the idea.

clear as mud?

[The Management]

This discussion illustrates how many pilots don’t know the difference between a normal duty and split duty.

Pilots can fly airplanes but sure are dumb on paperwork and industrial matters and we like to keep it that way.

Very few pilots keep track of their duty day and don’t know the FDP limits. I’m sure many don’t know the definition of a FDP without looking it up.

Many regional and medium haul patterns are very close to max duty and minimum rest but most pilots don’t know the rules and therefore don’t apply them. What we like mostly is the Captain’s don’t have the balls to challenge us and when they do, we interpret the rules in our favor and tell the pilot he is wrong on the interpretation. It rarely goes any further.

Pilots never challenge us on our interpretation of the FTL’s and never write to the CAD (as a MOR) to clarify that interpretation. Your AOA will never Challenge us on FTL interpretation, so why would a Captain stick his individual neck out? He likes his job and will not do anything to jeopardize it. We own the Captains and AOA.

BTW, we have a 15 year implementation plan on housing, but that is another matter.

Next will be rostering and then housing, Hong Kong schooling and then overseas schooling. We are coming for you and your families. We have plans.

To My Bonus.
The Management

[Arfur Dent]

Unfortunately, he's right again!!....................:{

[OK4Wire]

NC:

ok4wire
Rest is defined as sleep or repose, but under the Split duty provisions it is all time that is NOT pre/post flight duties or traveling. So walk in to walk out of the hotel.You have quoted the words, and the intent of OMPA correctly, and it is certainly the company's ideal interpretation that "because we have told you rest does not include traveling time, or post-flight duties, therefore everything else IS rest".

I put it to you that your 3 hours of rest must, in addition to OMPA, meet a reasonable person's definition of rest, ie repose or sleep.

Standing at a crowded, noisy, smokey, check-in desk for 20 minutes, listening to doof-doof music is not rest (and I therefore delayed our pick-up accordingly). We were in the hotel, but we were not resting.

[SloppyJoe]

After wake up call is also NOT rest for a split duty. You extend by 1/2 of time at rest, minimum 3 hours. Once you get the call, having a shower etc is not rest. Who do you think will be responsible if something happens?

[404 Titan]

“Rest” as defined in "Part A" is to mean “Repose” or “Sleep”. Repose can mean anything from sleep to as little as relaxation as defined in the dictionary. Now with that in mind and playing devil’s advocate, how do you think the company is going to interpret what rest is?

[Numero Crunchero]

ok4wire,
whilst I also agree with your comments in general, or rather the gist of them, CAD do not. They agree with how I described it earlier - not sleep - anything but pre/post flight duties and also excluding travel time!

Yet again 404 titan has it right - but i will keep reading and hoping I can catch him out;-))))