New Visa Requirements for Training in the U.S.A.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

On May 27, 2002 the New York Times printed an article titled, "Flight Schools See Downside to Crackdown"

In the article it is stated:

But under the new rules, schools and colleges cannot admit foreigners carrying tourist visas. A school that does so, including a small flight school, can lose its right to admit any foreign students, according to Russ Bergeron, a spokesman for the immigration service.

The INS is no longer talking about minimum flight times for exemptions to the rule. Now you cannot be granted entry to the U.S.A. without the proper Visa.

(Note to Moderators: I am double posting this thread in Wannabes and Private Flying since it applies to both threads. I hope that is not a problem)

Happy Flying,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[FlyingForFun]

That sounds like bad news.

What exactly does this new restriction apply to? Is it just for recognised training courses (you mentioned "schools and colleges")? If it is, how does it differ from the existing rules?

Or does this apply to hour-building too? In which case, how can a school diferentiate between someone who is hour-building, and someone who is a tourist but wants to do a couple of hours flying?

Also, how is a school supposed to be able to tell if a potential student is a foreigner? Or do they require ID for all students? It sounds like the responsibility belongs with US Immigration, rather than schools.

Cheers,

FFF
---------------

[Evo7]

:(

How long is the visa valid for? I'm planning on doing some flight training in the USA next year (with your chaps, Capt. Gentil :) ), but I regularly visit family in America and once I have the PPL (a few months, if it ever stops raining) I am undoubtedly going to try and fit in a few hours flying whenever I'm over.

However, I'm never going to be around for long enough to maintain any sort of currency, so flying will always involve instructors - sounds like I will have to apply for a student visa every time I go on holiday?!?

[StrateandLevel]

So what is the Visa requirement for foreign students embarking upon a course of European Training?

As I understand it, US Visas are only issued for US Training, not European Training.

[slim_slag]

As I understand it, US Visas are only issued for US Training, not European Training.

Do you mean only issued for FAA training, not JAA training?

All training here is conducted under FAA regs. JAA regs have no standing. Is I was feeling mischievous, I might argue that there is no 'JAA' training done here at all. You learn how to fly here in the FAA system, coincidently happen to fulfil the requirments of the JAA, and just happen to pass a JAA flight test at the end of it!

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

StrateandLevel,

It is and always has been any flight training. There has never been any distinction between FAA, CAA, JAA, etc.

Evo7,

The J-1 Visa is good for 18 months to 2 years. The M-1 Visa can be issued for a period of up to 1 year with an additional 1 year extension possible. It is tied to the course you plan to attend. It is supposed to be issued to meet the expected time requirement for you to complete your course.

FFF,

I do not have many answers at the moment. I currently in contact with the chairman of the House aviation subcommittee and hope to get some answers on procedures and requirements soon, so we will have concrete facts for all our students.

Take Care,

Richard

[Ian_Wannabe]

Hi,
This might come in usefull, it just outlines the M1-Training Visa etc which you need to have if you're going to learn to fly in the USA.

http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web/visa/niv/student.htm

[VORTIME]

Amazing how NAC are the only school to post such information. I guess other schools aren't to keen on scaring students away? I remember Jane insisting on refunding fuel money even altough it was some nominal amount...I always found them exceptionally upfront which should be noted.

VT

[Julian]

Just got a reply from to an email from the flight centre I use in CA. They have said if you are hiring aircraft then the primary purpose of your visit to the US is a vacation with plane hire involved. He stresses DO NOT lie to the INS on arrival, tell them you will probably hire an aircraft if you are asked.

They have had people turn up and then decide they want training part way through their holiday, they have sent them to Embassy to obtain the required visas - good news is that so far no one has been refused one.

Julian

[poetpilot]

So, just to clarify.... If I hold an FAA licence (which I do), I go on vacation with my family (which I am) and I want a Biennial Flight review then some aircraft hire (which I do), then that does not constitute training and does not require a visa?

[Facts Not Fiction Pls]

I suggest that anyone who has questions to contact the US Embassy - they have the answers!

[FrontWindowSeat]

Julian - The scenario of deciding to become a student during your holiday is no longer possible. You must get a student visa (J or M) before you enter the US, or explicitly declare your intention to convert to a student visa when you enter as a tourist.

There is still considerable uncertainty about the need for any student visa for initial training. Some immigration professionals view training for a PPL as similar to training for a scuba qualification - purely recreational - and therefore no student visa is required. Others argue that entering the US for any form of aviation requires careful immigration planning. There is no doubt that extended training and/or professional licences do require a student visa - this probably includes any part 141 course.

Purely recreational flying, such as renting (including the checkout), hour building, BFR etc. does not require a student visa, and in fact it would be fraudulent to use one unless you were enrolled on an approved full-time course.

Finally, don't fall into the trap of thinking that getting the 'maximum' visa will help if it isn't strictly necessary. Immigration officers at the port of entry are now very suspicious of anything out of the ordinary, such as EU passport holders travelling on something other than a visa waiver. Expect far more scrutiny at the POE if you are entering under a student visa.

[Flying Tooth Driller]

Richard,

Do you reckon you need an M1 to take the IR written, do a green ride and then the oral and checkride?

[notice]

FWS made a very good point.
The other point is that any accredited institution, such as an FAA school, can only admit students with visas.
The US does not accredit JAA training and isn't worried, anyway, about Tommy Atkins flying for a few weeks, with a tourist visa waiver, so don't worry about these wind-ups.

[Facts Not Fiction Pls]

I am not sure the US Embassy, US Immigration or the tragedies victims would agree with your callous comments! :mad:

Afterall, if what you say is true then the next suicide bomber will go to the US and say that he is doing the JAA program so can be admitted without a Visa!!!!

Do really think that would happen!!!!!:rolleyes:

[englishal]

Afterall, if what you say is true then the next suicide bomber will go to the US and say that he is doing the JAA program so can be admitted without a Visa!!!!

Or he can just go on "Vacation" as far as the INS is concerned.

Besides there's enough nutters already in the USA, look at the anthrax attacks for a start.

EA

[BRL]

Back on track please. This is about Visa requirements not terrorists.

[slim_slag]

Back on track please. This is about Visa requirements not terrorists.

The reason visa requirements have become even more relevant is because of terrorism. The two are inextricably linked.

Anyway, One-Nil !!!!!

[Facts Not Fiction Pls]

I agree with Slim Slag as this was not such a big deal before the attacks.

By people trying to go around the system it makes the free world a far more unstable place to be.

Englishal

I think the point is, they want to know if you are flying a plane as this seems to be the more devastating point of attack rather than from the ground.

[BRL]

I agree with the last two posts. I am just stopping it now before it got out of hand.

Example.....Besides there's enough nutters already in the USA, look at the anthrax attacks for a start.

Oh yea, thats all about visas isn't it.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

I started this thread because there was new legislation coming and students should know about it before they head to the U.S.A. to do any training.

I have been in contact with Homeland Security and they are taking this VERY SERIOUSLY. I know there are people that are going to argue that you do not need Visas, etc. but they do not make the decisions.

Everyone needs to contact the American Embassy in their country before they plan their trip to the U.S.A. Make sure you meet all the requirements. This way your trip to the U.S.A. will be a pleasant one.

Happy Flying,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[englishal]

Please feel free to censor my posts BRL if it'll make you happy.

(I was simply trying to make the point that whether or not someone holds a visa will make no difference to certain determined individuals).

Cheers
EA

[slim_slag]

What the authorities are trying to do in the US is get a handle on people who fly small aircraft. Reading between the lines, I think GA scares the Feds ****less, but they cannot really do much about it right now as GA is just too big and powerful over here.

I suspect at the end of all this, all pilots in the US will require a FBI background check. Problem is, the procedures are not yet in place to check every pilot (though the infrastucture definitely is), and the GA community would need to go along too.

So right now the easiest start point is to check 'aliens' coming into the country before they arrive, ie make them get a visa. As this progresses, I guess the prospective foreign pilot will need to get a background check performed by the embassy in his home country. Then as the procedures mature, even US citizens will need some background check.

So eventually the homeland "anthrax nutters" will be looked at too. Doesn't mean they all will get found out of course, but some will. So yes, I think that bringing up the point that there are plenty of loons in the US who have pilots or drivers licences is relevant and valid to this thread.

[BRL]

englishal I won't censor anyones posts unless i really have to and yours i don't. I get what your saying and totally agree with you, i was just nipping a potential 'Terrorist free for all' hi-jack' (excuse the pun) of this thread. Simple really.!!!

I am not having a go at anyone personally and i am not disagreeing with anyone either, just trying to keep this thread on track as i think its a pretty important thread and don't want it going off all over the place.

[englishal]

Fair enough BRL :)

Just to stray off topic one last time ;)...but it is sort of related, here is a couple of extracts from AOPA regarding foreign students .....

FOREIGN FLIGHT STUDENTS FACE NEW RULES
The expansion of an existing law will better track foreign nationals including flight students and will allow flight schools dependent on foreign students to return to normal operations. According to U.S. officials, those "high risk" visitors who wish to remain in the United States for more than 30 days for flight training will undergo registration, fingerprinting, and will be photographed. Unlike the state of Michigan, which recently passed legislation requiring U.S. student pilots to undergo rigorous State Department and FBI background checks, this federally imposed law will focus on the foreign pilot population rather than imposing a burden on the U.S. flight-training community. In a recent letter to the governor of New Jersey, AOPA President Phil Boyer said, "A more logical approach to addressing aviation security and airman requirements should be left to the federal government to implement, something that is occurring now." In addition, Boyer pointed out that flight training is regulated by the FAA, not individual states. AOPA continues to urge other states to stop any legislation that would unnecessarily hinder the training of U.S. students and jeopardize the future of the aviation economy in the United States.

[mparas]

Seeking clarification:

Can somebody (Capt. Gentil?) please summarise the visa requirements for the following situation, which I think describes a lot of us:

FAA or CAA PPL holder goes to the US for a couple of weeks and gets checked out in a light aircraft. They then proceed to tour a part of the country in the aircraft for most of their stay. Can they do so on the visa waiver or tourist visa? Or do they need a student visa?

And another situation particular to my case:

Aforementioned PPL holder's fiancee decides to do a "pinch-hitter" course involving 4-6 hrs, to guard against the PPL conking out whilst flying. Can she do so on the waiver or tourist visa?

Thanks in advance,
Emmanuel

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

I just had a lengthy meeting with Homeland Security. After discussions over the last several weeks they finally came with answers to my questions.

If someone wants to come to the U.S.A. to build hours or do any other pleasure flying they are ok to enter the country on the Visa Waiver Program and have a holiday flying.

As of April 12, 2002 no person can enter the U.S.A. and train on a Tourist Visa or a Visa Waiver. The 18 hours of study per week loophole has been removed. If you are going to train in the U.S.A. after April 12, 2002 you MUST BE ON A F-1, M-1, or J--1 Visa.

Here is a printable link to the new Regulation:

Requiring Change of Status From B to F-1 or M-1 Nonimmigrant (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=2002_register&docid=02-8926-filed)

Here is some of the points in the new code:

DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

Immigration and Naturalization Service

8 CFR Parts 214 and 248

[INS No. 2195-02]
RIN 1115-AG60


Requiring Change of Status From B to F-1 or M-1 Nonimmigrant
Prior to Pursuing a Course of Study

AGENCY: Immigration and Naturalization Service, Justice.



SUMMARY: This interim rule amends the Immigration and Naturalization Service (Service) regulations by eliminating the current provision allowing a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant visitor for business or pleasure to begin attending school without first obtaining approval of a change of nonimmigrant status request from the Service. This change will enhance the Service's ability to support the national security needs of the United States and is within the Service's authority under section 248 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (Act). The amendment will ensure that no B nonimmigrant is allowed to enroll in school until the alien has applied for, and the Service has approved, a change of nonimmigrant status to that of F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant student.

DATES: Effective date: This interim rule is effective April 12, 2002.

What Is the Service Changing in This Interim Rule?

The Service is eliminating the ability of an alien admitted to the
United States as a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant to begin attending classes without first applying to the Service, and obtaining the Service's prior approval, for a change of nonimmigrant status to that of an F or M nonimmigrant student. This rule expressly prohibits a B nonimmigrant from enrolling in a course of study or taking other actions inconsistent with B nonimmigrant status unless and until the Service has approved the B nonimmigrant's change to an appropriate student nonimmigrant status.

Why Is the Service Instituting This Change?

The terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, highlight the need of the Service to maintain greater control over the ability of an alien to change nonimmigrant status once the alien has been admitted to the United States. This interim rule will allow the Service to fully review any request from a B nonimmigrant to change nonimmigrant status to that of full-time student before allowing the alien to enroll in a Service-approved school. The elimination of the ability of a B nonimmigrant to begin classes before receiving the Service's approval of the change of nonimmigrant status is also consistent with the Act's requirement in section 101(a)(15)(B) that a B nonimmigrant not be a person coming to the United States for the purpose of study.


The Service's implementation of this rule as an interim rule, with provisions for post-promulgation public comments, is based on the "good cause'' exceptions found at 5 U.S.C. 553(b)(B) and (d)(3). The reason and necessity for the immediate promulgation of this rule are as follows: The rule is necessary to ensure the national security of the United States by eliminating the ability of a B nonimmigrant to enroll in school until the Service has approved a change of nonimmigrant status application filed by the prospective alien student. The previous rule allowing such enrollment prior to adjudication of the application was used by some of the September 11th terrorists to obtain flight training in the United States. Closing this loophole is essential to efforts to prevent this abuse from recurring.

Dated: April 9, 2002.
James W. Ziglar,
Commissioner, Immigration and Naturalization Service.
[FR Doc. 02-8926 Filed 4-9-02; 1:54 pm]
BILLING CODE 4410-10-P



If anyone has questions, please ask me and I endeavor to get the answers from my contacts in Homeland Security.

Take Care,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[Note to the moderators, I have posted this on the threads in Wannabes and Private Flying.]

[BRL]

Thanks Richard for taking the time out to post all that information. Much appreciated. :)

[paulo]

most US schools want to do nothing other than give you training in return for cash. Not a bad thing per say....

...but it's nice to see a school giving something back here by way of researched advice. Whilst that doesmnt guarantee they'll be the best trainers in the US, I'm guessing that they v.definitely will be cut above.

[slim_slag]

As of April 12, 2002 no person can enter the U.S.A. and train on a Tourist Visa or a Visa Waiver

Where does it say in any document that you cannot 'train'? All I see is that if you want to enroll in a school but your immigration status does not permit that, you now have to first wait for INS approval. They are closing what appears to be a loophole.

enroll in a school
enroll in a course of study

What is a 'school' for INS purposes? I would say it was a 'school' if it could issue an I-20. If it doesn't have that INS approval, then surely it is not a school.

What if I am a freelance CFI who teaches people to fly in my own plane? No school, no course of study (Part 61), no enrollment. I certainly cannot issue an I-20.

So lets say you entered the USA on a student visa, with the purposes of learning to fly under Part 61 (so not at an approved school). Isn't that behaviour inconsistent with your immigration status? If so, that's illegal and might get you deported and banned!

Are you saying it's now illegal for anybody to learn to fly with somebody who is not an educational establishment authorised by the INS?

Is it forbidden for me to take a CFI on a hour cross country flight so he can 'train' me on local procedures? Isn't hour building 'training'? You specifically said that sort of thing was OK.

I am sure regulations which specifically cover flight training are coming, but is this is one of them?

If anyone has questions, please ask me and I endeavor to get the answers from my contacts in Homeland Security.

You did ask :)

Cheers

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

slim_slag,

Anyone who is not a U.S. Citizen and does not have resident status wanting to train in the U.S.A. for a license or rating is required to be on a student Visa.

If you have your own airplane and want to train a student from the U.K., for example, for an F.A.A. Part 61 Private Pilot License, you will have to have visa authority and the student will have to have a student Visa. Without it you CANNOT train that student.

Look at the language in the rule:

The Service's implementation of this rule as an interim rule, with provisions for post-promulgation public comments, is based on the "good cause'' exceptions found at 5 U.S.C. 553(b)(B) and (d)(3). The reason and necessity for the immediate promulgation of this rule are as follows: The rule is necessary to ensure the national security of the United States by eliminating the ability of a B nonimmigrant to enroll in school until the Service has approved a change of nonimmigrant status application filed by the prospective alien student. The previous rule allowing such enrollment prior to adjudication of the application was used by some of the September 11th terrorists to obtain flight training in the United States. Closing this loophole is essential to efforts to prevent this abuse from recurring.

INS is having anyone (Non U.S.) who is going to flight train in the U.S.A. checked out prior to commencing any flight training. The way INS does this is with a Student Visa. The officers from Homeland Security were very clear on this point today.

Take Care,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[slim_slag]

INS is having anyone (Non U.S.) who is going to flight train in the U.S.A. checked out prior to commencing any flight training. The way INS does this is with a Student Visa. The officers from Homeland Security were very clear on this point today.

Well, if that's specifically what they said, it must be true. It would not surprise me and I think it's coming, but the document you cited does not state that.

I put another question up in Wannabes, I guess you are getting to that now....

Cheers,

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

On the Fourth of July Saddam's stepson tried to enter the country in order to do flight training. Here is the article and a quote.

Saddam's stepson arrested in Miami on immigration charges (http://www.naplesnews.com/02/07/florida/d771696a.htm)

Saddam Hussein's stepson was arrested Wednesday on immigration charges in Florida, where he had enrolled to take classes at a flight school, federal authorities said.

According to the Immigration and Naturalization Service, the Iraqi leader's stepson was traveling as a tourist and had not applied for a student visa that would have allowed him to take courses.


Take Care,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[Bouncy Landing]

Richard, if I come over and you do my BFR and checkflight (again) prior to me hiring from you for a few hours / days as part of my holiday do I need a visa (I hold a CAA PPL & FAA PPL based on my CAA PPL)?

If you are able to give a clear answer to this I think it will help many of us carify this aspect.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Bouncy Landing,

If you come over to do some holiday flying and are not looking to add a rating or license you are fine. The checkout is for insurance purposes and that is allowed. The BFR is for currency so for now, that is allowed. (There has been talk about requiring a Visa for the BFR but there is a strong voice in the government opposed to requiring a Visa.)

If you are here and then decide to add a night rating, as an example, you would need to change your status prior to training. If you are on a Visa Waiver, you will not be able to change your status since you do not have a visa and you waved all your rights when you entered the country.

Happy Flying,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[Bouncy Landing]

Many thanks Richard, very helpful and very clear.

[MLS-12D]

Sounds like nothing but a big hassle to me.:confused:

If I were travelling from the UK (or elsewhere in the EC) with the primary intention of building hours, I would probably avoid the aggravation and go to Canada or Australia. It would be a shame not to be able to take advantage of whatever opportunities might present themselves to qualify for a new rating, simply because of these new visa restrictions.

If I was just a tourism and might have the chance to squeeze in a couple of hours, I would not be deterred from going to the USA ... it's still a great country to visit. :)

Can't really blame the Feds I guess. It is just too bad that it had to come to this. :(

[Facts Not Fiction Pls]

No hassle with the Visa mate.

It is purely pop in the bank with their paying in slip (46 quid) then send this to the US Embassy with your passport, the INS I-20 form that the school sends you, plus another form you fill out that the school sends you. Paperwork filling should take 5 minutes.

You will get you visa back in the post 5 business days later.

The only time it will be a hassle is if you have a record.

If you are going to Canada then you might as well stay at home;)

[mattpilot]

YO! I have a question :)

I have to be honest with you guys. I haven't read every single post in this thread because its mainly about tourist visa. I on the other hand have a differen't visa problem.

I'm a foreign citizen living in the US on a R/I Visa (journalist visa). Valid for 5 years. From my understanding it is the most privileged visa. With this thing i can go to press conferences were, i suppose, important US political people speak. Or get into trade shows were only press people get into. Anyhow, ...

Now the question: Does the R/I visa eliminate the need for a Student Visa to fly aircraft (because it is obviously better than a tourist visa), or would i still have to get a student visa to fly planes?

This isn't to clear to me. If it has been already posted somewhere, please just link me to it. Thanks!

The local 141 school i attended did let me attend their school on this visa last year without making me 'degrade' to a student visa. I hope nothing has changed though.
Any of you experts know?

Thanks!

** edit : I'd ask the INS but quite frankly, i'm afraid they'll kick my ass. They'd probably get suspicious and paranoid about me or something. If it were not allowed, i broke the law (because i flew at the local FBO this year - they didn't even check my visa) and they might send me home :mad: .

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

mattpilot,

Go back to page 2 of this thread and look at what I posted 27th June 2002 18:00.

That should answer your questions. The summary is: Yes you have to change your Visa Status and you cannot train until you have the new Visa.

Take Care,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[mattpilot]

thx nap!

I read that yesterday before i posted my reply. It was unclear to me if a R/I visa must be 'degraded', so to speak. To qoute from your text: "Requiring Change of Status From B to F-1 or M-1 Nonimmigrant". Since i dont have a B visa, i personally dont see a need to change since R/I is not specificly mentioned. Or am I looking at this wrong? Is the above qoute the exact wording it uses in the rule?

Here a little theory of mine :) : Assuming the letters in the alphabet give priority to the Visa's (so it seems to me). B visa being less privileged, with F & M being more privileged. R being even further back in the alphabet would have to be even more privileged then, wouldn't it? Just a theory though :)

I dont really know who/where else to ask but the INS, but i'm kinda afraid of what could happen, since i also attended school well into June.

So if you have any insight or knowledge of this, that would be awesome.

[MLS-12D]

No disrespect to our friend Richard, whose helpfulness in this thread we all appreciate, but what it this "Captain" stuff?

:confused:

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

mattpilot,

You will find the answer in here:

Why Is This Change Limited to B Nonimmigrants?

In the process of drafting this rule, the Service considered making its requirements (i.e., that nonimmigrants obtain a student visa before being able to take courses) apply to anyone in the United States not currently in student status. Such a requirement would be broader than the rule as presently drafted, which applies just to nonimmigrants in B-1 or B-2 visitor status.
B nonimmigrants generally enter the United States for purposes of tourism or for a business trip. Pursuing a course of study is inconsistent with these purposes, and thus inconsistent with B status. However, pursuit of studies generally is consistent with most other nonimmigrant statuses, and thus such a broader rule could have unintended and overly burdensome consequences for such nonimmigrants. For some, such a J-1 au pair or an H-3 trainee, the courses might be an integral part of the program for which they obtained their status. For many dependent spouses, such as H-4s, derivatives of A or G diplomats, or NAFTA TN-2s, studies may be their only permissible pursuit while accompanying their spouse who is working in the United States. Dependent children are, in fact, expected to attend school. Even some principals in nonimmigrant status (e.g., H-1Bs, L-1s) may take courses incident to status to enhance their professional development. Requiring that these individuals change to F-1 or M-1 status in order to pursue studies would eliminate their ability to attend part-time, since by statute F-1s and M-1s must be pursuing a full course of study and since a nonimmigrant is prohibited from holding more than one onimmigrant status while in the United States.

They did not list other Visas since on some Visas you are allowed to pursue studies. In your case this is what your Visa allows you to do:

(I) upon a basis of reciprocity, an alien who is a bona fide representative of foreign press, radio, film, or other foreign information media, who seeks to enter the United States solely to engage in such vocation, and the spouse and children of such a representative if accompanying or following to join him;

Take Care,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[mattpilot]

thanks!

[MLS-12D]

Well, I see no explanation from Richard as to his "Captain" title.

Perhaps he might want to check out another thread on this forum: "Shirts, Ties, Epaulettes and Flying Suits". :D

You can call me "General"; no wait, "Admiral of the Fleet" has a nice ring to it ... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

MLS-12D,

Sorry I missed your question. You will find your answer here:

Captain Title (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7387)

Take Care,

Richard

[MLS-12D]

Richard,

Many thanks for your reply, and for the link.

Personally I think it is in questionable taste to continue to use a title when one is no longer occupying the position, but I concede that this practice is widespread in the USA: witness all the "Senators", "Judges", "Ambasadors" and "Presidents" who have been out of office for many years.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

As airlines are simply private corporations, I have to agree with "Sensible" that anyone who holds any pilot qualification is perfectly free to designate him or herself as "Captain". It's sort of like all those "Pastors" (even "Bishops", now!) that you see on television: yes it's completely pretentious, but why are those religions any less illegitimate than the more established churches?
:confused: :confused:

If you enjoy calling yourself Captain, more power to you. I speculate that you are much more approachable in person ... hope so anyway! :) :)

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

MLS-12D,

Not sure what you are trying to get at. If you would like to know if I am actively involved with an airline, the answer is yes. I am currently the Director of Operations for an Airline that is expanding in my region and I am a Captain.

If you have a problem with the title or some other issue feel free to email me.

Take Care,

Richard

[englishal]

Thanks for posting the info on PPrune Richard...you've been most helpful.

Rgds

EA:)

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I must support Richard also, to try and belittle him for such unimportant drivvel as how he signs his name is rather more a reflection on those who find this to be worth mentioning.

I judge Richard by what he contributes to aviation not what he calls himself.

He could dress in drag and call himself Miss Richard for all I care. that still would not change his contributions to aviation.

Cat Driver

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Hey Richard:

I just re read what I posted.

I don't know if I helped or made it worse. :D :D :D

[MLS-12D]

Chuck,

Well you have shut me up anyway ... I'm not going to touch that last one!:D :D

MLS-12D

[a pilot]

The USA is great for timebuilding,many local pilots will guide you for free,instruction or training is such only if LOGGED as training,the local opinion is that you will get better training at a 61 school and much more value for your money if you choose the right one.Not being able to train at a local school is UGLY.I am not familiar with naples or any other 141,I know what the locals do.Due to the latest restrictions by the GOV. and the PEOPLE I would doubt the benefits of training in the USA and go for touring and timebuilding only-cant beat 25$ an hour on a muscle cessna 150/150 2 people.Remember that many that came for training left without the certificate due to hidden costs and bankrupt schools.The average 61 school allowed you to PAY AS YOU GO,AND CHANGE SCHOOLS IF YOU ARE NOT HAPPY WITH THE INSTRUCTORS ,CRAPPY PLANES ETC. A student visa might put you in a blackmail situation-be cheated-then deported and lose your money too! I really hope other countries will be able to improve and pick up what the americans threw away.

[Facts Not Fiction Pls]

A few facts in answer to your post.

1. If you are unhappy with you 141 school you may tranfer to another 141 school. Should the new school follow the same syllabus such as Jepessen then you can just pick up where you left off. Should the new school use a different approved syllabus, then the CFI will fly with the student and apply for a credit from the FAA.

2. If you are unhappy with the M1 school, then you may go to another Visa approved school and transfer your visa there. It is merely one form called an I-539 which consists of one page of personal details. Your options are open to transferring to an M1, a F1 or a J1 approved school therefore broadening your choice. Merely a paperwork process.

3. If you are looking for a structured professional course go 141. If you can study on your own and prefer the tick all the boxes route then go 61. The advantages of a 141 school though is that they are under far greater scrutiny for:
a. aircraft - inspect far more frequently than 61 schools
b. paperwork - god help you if you ticked a box you shouldn't have
c. success rate. (Need an 80% first time pass rate over a 2 year period)
d. Qualified personnel - at different levels of approval

Some of the 61 schools would not get approved for one of the above, however most would if they put in the effort on the paperwork, facility and structure. JAA approved schools are already following a similar paper trail so it would not be much adjustment.

[mattpilot]

few comments on your post, Mr. 'Facts not fiction pls'


a) aircraft do not really get more inspections. Just the regular ones required by regulations & the 100h which is mandatory at 141. But i believe most part 61 schools do it anyway, even though they are not required (afaik)

b) happens all the time here at spartan - just fill out a new one :)

c) here at spartan (which is a pretty well known school), it is, depending on how many credits you have attempted, anywhere from 45%(24 credits = one academic year = 8 months) to 67% (114 credits)

d) qualified? yea right :p :cool: most part 141 schools hire their own students.. and since all of them have no teaching experience the school has to get a waiver for each instructor they hire :) - and you can tell they are inexperienced, cause i got one who just finished training 1 month before i got him.