Training questions

[Dofi27]

Hi fellas, please I need help for you. Im working in a flight school where I found some important differences how I have to tteach and How have been learnt.

Becuase I think in my school they are wrong, could you please answer a few questions int the follow link.

Thank you very much; I appreciate your help,

<iframe src="https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1AVdypEqjUIhahYvwSEjpoY7r2vA_ErhCxL-MFXdNObc/viewform?embedded=true" width="760" height="500" frameborder="0" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0">Cargando...</iframe>

[keith williams]

Oh that's an easy one. The answer is

1AVdypEqjUIhahYvwSEjpoY7r2vA_ErhCxL-MFXdNObc

I think that you need to recheck your post.

Sorry

[Tinwacker]

Oh that's an easy one. The answer is

Check your spelling please......

TW

[josemarb]

Here is the link :)

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1AVdypEqjUIhahYvwSEjpoY7r2vA_ErhCxL-MFXdNObc/viewform?embedded=true%22%20width=%22760%22%20height=%22500% 22%20frameborder=%220%22%20marginheight=%220%22%20marginwidt h=%220%22

[TheOddOne]

Posted questions:


When you instruct an EFATO and that occurs above 500ft... *

That old chestnut. Been done to death here and everywhere else. You could argue that if you're above 500' AGL, you've already turned crosswind so it's not strictly EFATO (unless you're going to argue that the t/o isn't complete until you've levelled off in the cruise). In any event, low-time pilots, students or new PPLs will survive much better going for 30 deg rather than attempt anything more extreme. (In my view)

when you insctruct for engine failure, you (a)follow the traffic pattern(b)you dont teach sideslip

don't understand the first part of the question. If it's PFLs, then these are usually taught away from the airfield to give field choice a prominent part of the lesson. We do a few in the overhead once the basics of field choice and circuit planning are mastered, in which case, yes OF COURSE you follow the circuit pattern!
Sideslip. You're only going to be doing this if you've already deployed flap. Our Cessna is placarded 'no slips with flap' so that's a no-no. PA28, sure, good technique.

when you land on short final as a normal weather conditions

you use maximum 20º of flap in a cessna 152
you use full flap
none of above

don't understand the question. May be something's lost in the translation???
Anyhow, normal landings in my book should be 'full flap', except where 40 deg is available, then only use 30.

Cheers,
TheOddOne

[Whopity]

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1AVd...nwidth=%220%22Can be best described as complete and utter tripe!

Has instructing really sunk to this level?

[foxmoth]

Agree with Whopity, utter tripe, where does it come from?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Another vote for complete cobblers. If that was created by an instructor, of any kind, anywhere in the world - they should be having a deep meaningful discussion with their Chief Instructor, not involving tea and biscuits.

G

[Big Pistons Forever]

Sideslip. You're only going to be doing this if you've already deployed flap. Our Cessna is placarded 'no slips with flap' so that's a no-no. PA28, sure, good technique.



Another example of flight school urban myths mindlessly passed down from instructor to instructor. You need to immediately actually read the POH for the airplane because you have demonstrated by your post that you do fully not understand what is in it, something that IMO is unacceptable in an instructor.

Specifically No Cessna 150,152,172 model is placarded as "no slips with flaps". The limitations section of the POH for all models of Cessna 150, 152,172 does not contain a limitation prohibiting slips with flaps deployed.

Since it is not detailed as a limitation it is not prohibited. What the POH does say about slip with flaps comes in the "Normal Procedures" section of only the C 172 POH (Not the C 150/C 152). It cautions that slips should be "avoided" with flap settings of greater than 20 degrees due to the potential of elevator buffeting or on pre 1973 models a pitch down moment.

This distinction is important as students should know that if they have to get down the option of a full flap slip is available. This is especially important in the forced approach exercise as if they are too high even with full flap than the only option available is a slip or even a slipping turn which will resulted in the greatest possible altitude loss without increasing the airspeed.

[jokohsamui]

Hi, I am looking for a flight school (in any country) which provides on tow take off training. I need to follow this training in order to match the requirements for an aerial advertising company job offer. Thank you for your help.

[thing]

Specifically No Cessna 150,152,172 model is placarded as "no slips with flaps". The limitations section of the POH for all models of Cessna 150, 152,172 does not contain a limitation prohibiting slips with flaps deployed. I'm not an instructor but it's surprising how many people think you can't slip a 172 with flaps extended. Another old chestnut is to drop 10 degrees flap for a short field t/o in a 172. No, you don't.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Another old chestnut is to drop 10 degrees flap for a short field t/o in a 172. No, you don't.

It depends on the model. The C172 P,R,S models have the following direction in
the "Normal Procedures" section in the "Wing Flap Settings".

Quote
-On a short field takeoff, 10 deg wing flaps and an obstacle clearance speed of 56 KIAS should be used.
Unquote

However earlier models have different direction. This is from the same section of a C 172 N POH.

Quote
-Normal and short field takeoffs are performed with flaps up
Unquote

I find it discouraging that there are so many flight school propagated urban myths when accurate information derived from an approved flight test program is available in the POH. :ugh:

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Another question which has always puzzled me:

The POH for the PA28 series states that flap 25 (second stage) be used for short field take-offs.

I always understood that flap settings above 10-15 degrees created more drag than lift.

Why use 25 degrees (Cessna don't).

Is there a rational explanation for this setting (other than Piper's own figures)?

Different situation - but the Boeing 737-300 use flap 15 for the approach (150 knots, gear down, flap 15) and flap 30 or 40 for landing.

Hence the flap 25 setting on the humble PA28 seeming excessive?

Genghis and Co your input would be appreciated.

[thing]

It depends on the model. The C172 P,R,S models have the following direction in
the "Normal Procedures" section in the "Wing Flap Settings".
Crikey, I don't fly stuff that modern. I should have clarified and said 'for the K and M models.'..and they still fly in MPH! The K I fly incidentally has 40 degrees of flap. Mmmm, nice.

Quite right though, the POH is your friend.

I always understood that flap settings above 10-15 degrees created more drag than lift.

Why use 25 degrees (Cessna don't).The 182P in my logbook (I'll be model specific this time!) has flaps 20 for short field take off.

[Piltdown Man]

Why use 25 degrees (Cessna don't).

I'm with thing. It is vital to read the aircraft's manual and you must expect surprises. There are huge variations between different marques of the same aircraft. Some C172 models state a short field takeoff should be performed with 10˚ of flap and other models state flaps up. The C206 I used to fly performed considerably better with 20˚ on short fields than the 10˚ I was told I should should use. You'll never guess what the manual said...

The statement "...that flap settings above 10-15 degrees created more drag than lift." suggests that you might not quit understand what flaps really do. Yes, as the flaps are lowered, the lift generally increases in percentage terms greater rate than drag, until a certain setting when drag will increase at a faster rate. But as long as lift is increasing, all things being equal you will be able to fly at a slower speed with increasing flap. But having maximum lift will not necessarily result in an improved short field performance. What you need is the optimum ratio between lift and drag for the job in hand. It is also important to consider obstacles in the climb out path. Getting off the ground is only one aspect of the take off. Also, an engine failure on departure with the maximum possible flap selected might mean the aircraft becomes un-flyable by a normal pilot.

So returning to where we started, an aircraft's operating manual describes how it should be flown. Not a chap in the bar or an idiot like me on the internet.

PM

[darkroomsource]

My recollection (and it's not what it used to be) is that a Cessna 310 Q POH had the statement that flaps more than the first position creates more drag than lift. (which, I think is 10 degrees)
And my instructor told me that it was more drag than the gear, and we experimented and found it to be true.
But I don't recall seeing it anywhere else.

[Big Pistons Forever]

C 172 = Fowler flap

PA 28 = plain slotted flap

C 310Q = Split flap

All flaps are not the same !

The "correct" amount of flap is model specific so what works on a Piper has no bearing on what should be used on a Cessna.

[Level Attitude]

C 172 = Fowler flap

PA 28 = plain slotted flapC172 has a slotted Flap
PA28 has a plain flap (I have never seen a slotted one)

Discussion Point:
I have been told that a fowler flap means that the surface area changes over the full range of flap settings and that C172 flaps should not, therefore, be called fowler flaps as the area only changes over the first 10deg of deployment.

I like to say they are slotted flaps with a 'fowler action' over the first 10deg.

Any comments ?

[Big Pistons Forever]

C172 has a slotted Flap
PA28 has a plain flap (I have never seen a slotted one)

Discussion Point:
I have been told that a fowler flap means that the surface area changes over the full range of flap settings and that C172 flaps should not, therefore, be called fowler flaps as the area only changes over the first 10deg of deployment.

I like to say they are slotted flaps with a 'fowler action' over the first 10deg.

Any comments ?

You are correct A true fowler flap will extend almost to the edge of the wing before significant flap angles are achieved. So the initial flap selection is almost all area increase, not camber increase. I think it has become common to call any flap that has an area increasing component a "fowler" flap in order to distinguish it from ones that are simply hinged. The Cessna SEP POH describes the flaps as "a single slot type". The Piper Pa 28-140 POH I have does not give any descriptor of the flap type. They are IMO slotted however, unlike the ones on the SEP Grummans which are a simple hinged plain flap.

In any case while both Piper and Cessna flaps are slotted there is no question the area increasing action of the Cessna style design them more effective.