Vote on "Offer"

[monster330]

I vote NO effing way.

Resounding NO

[ron burgandy]

Monster, I think it's safe to say almost all that frequent prune or the AOA boards will vote no. The problem is engaging the other chunk that seemingly don't care.

[cxorcist]

Feeling unfit? Mentally and emotionally, I seriously question whether I should be flying for the foreseeable future. Anyone else?

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

i find i get a little more unfit the further i get from Hong Kong! Might be able to get to New York, but i might struggle to get back!

[Bo Wing]

I have to agree with Ron on this one, you're preaching to the converted here, it's the G & L flyers as well as the company "yes men" that'll you'll need to convince to vote NO! := However (sigh!) there'll still be those "let's take what we can get" lot who will vote, yes. :ugh:

[Yonosoy Marinero]

Let me get this straight:

We were about to engage in CC when they walk in with a white flag and a last minute offer...

Meanwhile, at the lair, many of the flights aren't properly crewed until the day before, CC is red lining plugging holes in the roster.

It seems to me that the whole thing is about to fall off the hinges and that they simply cannot let CC happen, yet they walk in with just before the shutters close to offer us less than what the CXcity janitors got without even asking for it.

They are asking us to accept a pay cut for this year and the next two, not to mention the last 5 or more.

Hmmm. Let me think about that one...

...nope.

[Blowback]

Okay the offer is derisory and insulting BUT my opinion is to take it
Tell the company that the membership is accepting it but under duress
there is absolutely nothing to stop us enacting contract compliance the next day and doing our own thing , With all the new aircraft arriving crew control is having an increasingly difficult time crewing flights so a well managed CC will be very effective , but it should have been done during the summer rush ,now fall is here it will not be as effective until Christmas and New Year
Unless you are all prepared to do something about G day workers the small minority will undermine the efforts of the majority

[DropKnee]

You couldn't be more wrong. Take the crumbs while they eat cake?
He'll no!!!

[dartman2]

Like the update says, vote YES if you feel that is all you are worth. Most of the guys I work with are worth far more.

[Sand Man]

When and where is the focus night?

[Red Hot Poker]

Sand Man
If you have to ask that question, you are most likely not a member and not welcome.

[Will fly for Cash]

As Blowback alluded to, the timing is perfect for the company. Summer peak is over, and winter holidays are a few months away. If membership happens to accept the offer, good for the company. If the offer is rejected, CC now won't be nearly as effective as it would have been over the summer or will be in winter - also good for the company. I hope HKAOA takes a play from the same playbook.

[XFR8]

Accept the offer, take the money.

Don't work G's
Don't answer your phone (S/O's are organised, everybody should be)

We can go back and demand more when they start parking jets.

If they want to play silly buggers, so can we. There is absolutely no need to reject the offer or announce CC. There are no strings attached to this offer, any future offer would certainly have strings. RP's etc.

No need for a "focus night" this is not the sort of advice that the GC can give you.

The key is unity, everyone on the same page. Stop answering your friggin phones!!

[OK4Wire]

All fair points, though I tend to agree with XFR8.

But I have never heard of a company such as this that makes US vote on a pay offer! WTF?!

Did they make the ground staff vote last year? I thought not...

I run a small business and when (rarely, I admit) give a pay increase, it just APPEARS in my peoples' pay.

If CX wishes to pay us more, just put it into our pay packets, and have the testicular fortitude to deal with the fall out later. To do this they are just giving themselves an out.

Don't fall for it. Take the money and go into CC if you want - maybe over 25 year housing?

[Soul planet]

This is what you call EXPECTATIONS vs REALITY


http://www.dramafever.com/st/img/wp/2013/03/Screen-Shot-2013-03-20-at-4.17.31-PM.png

[airplaneridesrfun]

In order to keep my family supported in a sustainable way, there is no way I can vote yes for this. If this truly what CX believes as fair, then it's time to move on to greener and more local pastures. Not sure how they have extorted me to stay this long anyway..... the beatings will continue until morale improves. Fortunately, I believe this will be the first 100% vote against anything in AOA history.

What this offer has not even addressed:

Pollution override
Expensive city override
Education costs override (they don't pay 100%)
School bus override (it's free in most of the world)
DB bus cost override (it takes a small fortune to go to work)
Political instability override (china is about to take over HK and merge CX with Air China)
Insurance that sucks override
FOC override (it's not free! and it's not always confirmable)
"We don't follow your contract" override - because CX does what they want with minimal AOA resistance


and the list goes on..... WHY are we here still?????

[LRpilot]

Take the bloody money now and deal with the future tomorrow! We are still in time for official CC and nobody force you to work on G days or answer the phone......
My two cents.

[betpump5]

Agree with all your sentiment guys.

However, after Pay and Rostering is sorted, then the issue of Housing will come up. Be warned, they are COMING for it.

Isn't it better to save the One Round in the barrel for that?

[FlexibleResponse]

XFR8

take the money... carry on as normal.
Accept the offer, take the money.

Don't work G's
Don't answer your phone (S/O's are organised, everybody should be)

We can go back and demand more when they start parking jets.

If they want to play silly buggers, so can we. There is absolutely no need to reject the offer or announce CC. There are no strings attached to this offer, any future offer would certainly have strings. RP's etc.

No need for a "focus night" this is not the sort of advice that the GC can give you.

The key is unity, everyone on the same page. Stop answering your friggin phones!!

Listen to an old guy...we have seen all of this before.

Accept everything that is offered...but stick to the same game plan that is already in place.

PS. Stop answering the phone. Having said that, unfortunately, there will always be guys out there feathering their own nests. This will NEVER change so we need to factor that in and work with the reality. :-)

[Threethirty]

If we accept this nonsense then they will conclude that we're likely to be a pushover on everything else; including RP's and housing. Start as you mean to go on!

[airplaneridesrfun]

So, how many managers are on this forum saying "take the money"? This is crazy..... people should be saying "give the money" because that is effectively what is happening if anybody votes for it. If we agree to anything short of inflation, then of course the company will come for housing because we are spineless. If we make our position known and are willing to act, then they will not dare touch housing. Housing is in writing anyway, right? that was part of the last craptacular deal we shoved down our own throats.

[RAT Management]

It's a fair deal. Just take it and shut up with all your whining. If you can't carve out a good living on b scale with housing you need to be complaining some place else. The guys on the pilots allowance need a better deal if they are single they do ok but once family comes along these guys struggle. For those of you that think the 49ers won't happen again. Think again. They have air china and china southern on standby to operate our flights. Our little disruption will be un sustainable to all you guys on the poverty line as your wife's go to their tennis lessons and luncheons. Be real. The job is good but like everything there are plenty of brown grass in our field. But don't think the next field will be any greener. Take the deal live your life and be happy for once instead of always bitching about crap.
:D:=

[XFR8]

So 330, you reject the offer. they come back with a lower offer, except its not an offer, it will appear in your pay-packet.

What are you going to do? Strike?

Been there done that. Take the money and stick to the plan. If no-ones explained the plan to you, ask an SO.

[fly123456]

Obviously, guys calling for a YES vote are not NZ, AUS or US based, or LEP...

Just a bunch of selfish pricks.

[Sqwak7700]

What are you going to do? Strike?


No, we will continue in CC. And most important of all,

WE CAN WALK WITH OUR HEADS HELD HIGH.

You should try it sometime XFR8, you might like it.

:ugh:

[gofor]

If a union board needs to get it's members to vote then they do not have the confidence of their members, and thus gives the company the confidence in a weak union to manipulate - in other words you are at the mercy of the company.

[Shutterbug]

@RAT

The job is good but like everything there are plenty of brown grass in our field.

I read this four times and still don't know what it means. Next time you wanna pretend you're a mngt stooge, maybe have your wife do a grammar check for you sweetie. Or one of the girls at the cash register at Cafe Coral. Their Engrishee is better than your sh1te.

[BillytheKid]

Ask the USAB FO's how it worked out when they took the COS08 deal now so they could negotiate it years later. Make no mistake, if you take this deal now that is all you will get.

[boxjockey]

Threethirty,

Were you able to attend the focus night? This one is a long game, and many who have been here to see it all recommend we take the money with nothing attached and continue on down the path we have already chosen. I tend to agree with them. The big fight is going to be for RPs and housing, and we better still have a bullet in the chamber.

box

[Anotherday]

The pay for oz and NZ is based upon CX paying something close to what the widebody carriers down there pay. So on the case of NZ, though those on the base don't like to mention the elephant in the room, it's pretty obvious why they got the 1% offer by the company. Don't have an opinion on it, can't say how long the current situation will last, just saying.....

[Mill Worker]

The concept of taking the money that is on the table is divisive and floored. Under this deal the Canadian Base gets nothing, the Australian Base gets nothing, the NZ Base gets almost nothing and the rest get a very poor percentage increase (which we all know is negative in real terms).

There is no point further debating if this offer should have been presented or not. It has been presented so it is what it is. There now seems to be two options:

1. Vote yes, and some elements of the group get a minor increase in pay and many get close to nothing or absolutely nothing. As I understand it, those represented by the HKAOA will then be stuck with this for three years and those in Canada and Australia will have no leverage at all to improve their lot.

2. Vote no, lose nothing at all and be in a strong position to have a better deal presented in the coming months.

[newiereef]

20 years in CX with the AOA lead me to want to accept. We have rarely if ever been offered anything without other strings attached. This is . Salary is important but we have bigger issues as a pilot group. The companies problems with moral and sickness etc don't stem from Salary. They come from Rostering,Housing,Bases... If they believe that the offer will solve those issues they are delusional. We take the offer and carry on pushing hard for the issues that really matter as mentioned above. The thorns in their side of sickness and an noncompliant workforce will remain , if not worsen..

[Blowback]

Okay shoot me down in flames if you like but
1) contract compliance will hurt them to a point , but I don't think enough to make them come back with a better offer
2) I have seen the union reject a pay offer before , We never got the offered increase , or the figure we were demanding so loose loose
3) there will always be crew who will break ranks and help out, working on G days etc , Unless we are prepared to take unified action against those individuals the effects of contact compliance will be diminished but there are ways around this
4) 4% is on the table now , for most anyway , as for those who are getting less we can fight for more later .

Take the offer, secure the pay rise , and then move immediately to Contact compliance and the old WOE campaign( withdrawal of enthusiasm ) . Combined they will be much more effective You are an intelligent group of people ,work it out for yourselves how best to achieve that goal . I don't want to put ideas down in print but I can think of any number of things to do

I understand the frustration with the offer, it sucks!! but unless you are ALL prepared to do everything that is required CC will in all probability not bring them back to the table . So why not take the increase and do CC anyway, the end result will be the same if its going to work we will secure a better deal in a few months , if it doesn't we are still 4% ahead

My 2cents worth

[777300ER]

Take the #$%ing money and move on to other pressing issues.. Rome wasn't built in a day.

[fly123456]

Why the rush to discuss housing and RPs?
The company needs them, not me.

They can wait until we all get a proper salary adjustment.

[goathead]

This is extremely worrisome reading all this baloney.
This is about pay and pay only , its not matched anybodies expectations whatsoever . Pay rise first then we march on , this is not the time for all this bickering , everyone just needs to keep calm . Sit on your hands and do not blink. There is a myriad of other issues that need sorting out . If we blink now we throw away our advantage .Rostering and housing can be sorted with the RPs
Do not budge ladies and gents.

[Chaac]

How many would leave if the rise was 1/1/1 for all, not many.

The current deal.

It's targeted at retention not fairness or inflation. If it is rejected then in 6 months time there will be an inferior one on the table, perhaps no back dating. If it is accepted then the next target will be xxx and pitched accordingly. This is no longer a career airline and has not been for several years.

Reject the offer and see no pay correction for years, but will perhaps make the co think twice about axing too quickly.

The present CEO is intent on cutting costs our salaries are in his gun sight.

[fly123456]

The question should be: "how many would vote NO and go into CC if the offer had been 1% for all"

Ask the SOs how many have already applied to other airlines in their home country. And that's after only 2 years in the company.

[airplaneridesrfun]

A lot of people forget that we got 0% last year. The company's bench-marking does not take into account what other pilots make at all, but it is in line with what most other "raises" will be this year. We are way behind in terms of wage only.

The company is happy.... because it knows some yahoos here will want this offer. It also knows that this will be a breaking point for some and they will leave. Then, they can replace these pilots with cheaper C scale, no housing, CEA, etc... workers that heard about CX through "I can fly" rather than flying airplanes for a living.

[Frogman1484]

Ive been here long enought to know that Contract compliance does not work. It will make zero differance to the way we are crewing our aircraft. Been there done that!

The offer is not going to get better

There are no productivity increases attached.

It is backdated to January.

I will vote yes and take the money. Will fight for more when it comes to RP.

[buggaluggs]

FFS Froggy, now is the time to grow a pair and go toe to toe with these guys. They've already blinked once by sending the GMA with this 'Offer', they're short of crew, everyone is in O/time, the roster is a shambles, freight contracts are being pulled, and they've got LOTS more jets incoming. Now is the hour! We're never going to have more leverage!

If we take what is effectively a pay cut for the next three years, I guarantee they'll push even harder on RP's. Oh, but we'll make it up on housing... and before you know it you've been screwed three times in a row!

Lets be realistic, are they going to give us 10%, hell no, will it get ugly, maybe , are we ( and I mean EVERYBODY ) worth at least the same pay rise as the guy who cleans the ****ter got without even asking! Hell yes!!!

Buggs Out

[airplaneridesrfun]

Did they offer to give us dosimeters for radiation?
Are the 'other improvements' good for the company , or us?
Will we get a divorce override due to the high rate at CX due to bad rostering and living in Hong Kong?
Why don't they offer real insurance?
How can the company unilaterally say you have to switch yo Cos 08 to take a base? One guy has a set of balls I wish we collectively had.
Are they giving us displacement pay like every other airline?
How is that full credit for online modules coming along.

[geh065]

It isn't that much money anyway, even if you are HKG based. I'm happy to pass and vote no and send the company a strong message. Worst that can happen is they don't offer anything for a while and we launch CC. They will come back to us after that.

[goathead]

Anyone that has an ounce of brain fluid
Will ignore the massive amount of pro company trolls that are all over this site and think accordingly....
Dont blink

[airplaneridesrfun]

Why do we have to negotiate RPs and housing? The current arrangement is fine. I vote No. I further vote to let the company wait to negotiate these things until our contract is complied with, including adequate pay reviews.

[airplaneridesrfun]

Can we get screened for skin cancer at our medicals? Maybe the cad can make this mandatory? Remember, we are one of the few airlines that pilots have a chance to pay for their own medical and not get reimbursed.

[Shutterbug]

@Buggaluggs

Lets be realistic, are they going to give us 10%, hell no, will it get ugly, maybe , are we ( and I mean EVERYBODY ) worth at least the same pay rise as the guy who cleans the ****ter got without even asking! Hell yes!!!l yes!!!

Agreed. BUT... what precludes voting 'yes,' securing the raise, and moving forward with CC within 6 months? Better one bird in the hand, no?

Swire create a Prisoner's Dilemma... and everyone falls for it. This is Game Theory 101 stuff. Very straight forward.

[cyrex]

What's wrong with voting yes for the raise, pocket the money now and continue doing cc? Haven't you all been doing "CC" for the years passed already?

[Frogman1484]

Trust me mate...contract compliance does not work!:ugh:

All of the G day worker, commuters etc will make sure it does not work.

Voting yes...taking the money... Fighting for more with RP.:ok:

[mngmt mole]

Frogman: firstly, anyone who starts a thread with the words 'trust me'..... Secondly, if CC doesn't work, then why does the company get so excited and start threatening us whenever we mention the subject? The Freighter network is in utter chaos, most of us are in multiple months of overtime and my phone rings every G day. CC will be enough to push things right over the edge.....trust me ;)

[airplaneridesrfun]

Everybody in the office has gotten a compounded 10% since last year roughly. Why is 10% unreasonable now given our last concessionary contract? Then 4.5, 4.5.

[Silent Running]

Mole, agree with you entirely!

Who in their right mind would agree to a three year deal in the current financial uncertainty and 'Compounded 10%'; try looking at the projected compound inflation expected over the next 3 years before giving away your future...

...and while we're at it what about the increments? Many of you who will be unfortunate enough to stay until 65 will top out of the current scales long before you retire. have you thought about that?

Get the pay sorted THEN address the other major issues.

Heaven help us... 9 months of negotiations to get less than everyone else got :ugh: give me strength!

Compliance will work and, yes, it did work before. Unfortunately we were the first to blink and as a result 49 guys lost their jobs and now, as a result, they p**s all over us

Grow a pair and fight for what you want and deserve!

[Captain Dart]

Even more than CC, the Recruitment Ban during the last 'unpleasantness' really hit a nerve; they went on and on about it, even at senior management level. The DFO squealed like a stuck pig.

I am not commenting on the morality or effectiveness of such bans, just that it really got their attention.

[Shep69]

I can't believe what I'm hearing.

Take the money ?!!??! WTFO

The offer is designed to divide us into fragments and factions--and then exploit these factions against each other. No more, no less. Some get a LITTLE bit more, some have a pay cut and don't recover it for more than 3 years.

It ALSO locks us in to NO pay rise for 3 years "you want ANOTHER raise ? I just GAVE you one."

And a raise that isn't a raise at all--it doesn't even keep up with inflation. It's a net loss disguised as a "raise." We work more for less--how can one frame THAT into any kind of good deal ?

"Well, they could offer zero" Maybe.....but that'll be a hard one to sell to shareholders when planes wind up parked and the company loses money hand over fist because they REQUIRE goodwill from pilots to keep the place running--and REQUIRE them to work beyond their contract in order solely to break even. If we have to pitch in to keep the place running we should be paid as such; or at least not LOSE money as the years advance--which is exactly what has been happening due to inflation. Companies raise prices to deal with inflation. Our price of fuel has gone up but why not the price of skilled labour ?

How many have seen the price of food go down ? Or housing ? Or transportation ? Or education ? Or insurance ? Or taxes ? Or for commuters their commutes and hotels ? Are the suppliers of these goods and services simply sucking it up and operating at a loss or passing it on to their customers. Why are WE supposed to suck it up ?

Does Boeing lose money on airplanes because they cost more to make in 2014 than 2006 ?

I'm starting to feel like that sales guy on TV who says "I lose money on every deal--how do I do it ? VOLUME !!!" Only this time it's real.

If this damn thing is rammed down my throat I'll answer the phone and work G days; why not ? If we do so we've just PROVEN we can't negotiate or stay together--we've proven we will capitulate at the first sign of difficulty (even preemptively--we haven't even gone IN to CC yet -- yet we're giving up before a shot is fired) and the follow on offers will keep this in mind. White flag now, white flag later on every issue. We'll cave on rostering to protect housing--or maybe the North Americans will get a sweet rostering deal to offset the shiite pay deal and remember how the HKG crew sold them out on the pay end--twice-- for a meager pittance. Or maybe it'll be C scalers against A scalers. Or B scalers against C scalers. Or maybe FO's against SFOs. Or JFOs against SOs. Or CNs against the world. Why would based crew now care and function in solidarity with HKG to keep housing and education because HKG crew sold them out on pay ?

See how it works ?

It's a bad deal and one accepts it at one's own peril.

[goathead]

Shep has got this 100% spot on , if we fall for this we are paving the way to disaster....vote accordingly.
Do not let your brothers and sisters down
Do not think for an instance they will not remember this when the tables turn
DO NOT BLINK.

[Near Miss]

Am I missing something? The latest letter from the company has the effective date of April 1st, 2014. Whereas the AOA stated the pay would be backdated to January 1st, 2014. Time to check the small print, or it this just another typo that will be corrected, "trust us"?

[freightdog188]

read it again, and slowly.
effective date 01APR14, backdated to 01JAN14, all future increments on 01APR

[pritzlbaer]

If we accept this deal, we show ourselves to be as disjointed, fragmented and spineless as management views us.

Are aircraft and flights still being as affected crewing wise as what we are led to believe through CC and abandoning of 'goodwill'?

Is the company actually hurting or concerned about this, because the recent offer seems to suggest not... Are we running out of tools to use?

[Pucka]

The percentages offered by this mob are insulting. Many of the older, long term guys haven't had a pay rise since 1996..yes, A scales and all that bollox, but in real terms, 30% should be on the table. Keep it simple..as a non arguable percentage across the board for all..separate from benefits and a stand alone. Non acceptance will be at the risk of the company..notice, small case.

[Near Miss]

freightdog188, got it thanks. I was missing something, the word "retroactive". I read the effective date and thought "The :mad:". Although I still can't work out how it is too hard to include HDP from Jan 1st.

[DropKnee]

All you "yes" voters are clear exams a
Of why western civilization is declining. You have all lost your wits. Accepting a **** deal always sets you up for another **** deal. That's why since the A scalers caved in the CX pilots have continued to get a crap deal. Enough already. Grow a dam pair.

[Oasis]

Seems like there is much disagreement.
Expectations vary all over the shop.

Partly the AOA is to blame for this.
If we knew what the AOA asked for in the first place, expectations would be more in alignment.

What did % they ask for, and what was the previous offer from the co?

[sleepercell]

I am a HKG based airbus captain that been here for 16 plus years and I am voting Yes...period. The company have made an offer, which is at the lower end of what's acceptable but has no strings attached and I'm going to take it, the fight will go on and that's fine by me.

I am getting sick and tired of reading about our USAB pilots, half of whom are direct entry captains and FO's who are disadvantaged by this deal....and how selfish I'm being by wanting to accept it. I've been in the AoA 15 years and seen more, and paid more towards the fight, than most on this site and will continue to do so.

Goathead, don't preach to me about looking after our brothers and sisters.

These are the same people who were happy to take basings and rank out of seniority and who get 18 days off per month while living where they want to live - yet it is me that is 'selfish'?

And then our NZ based pilots...for years I watched senior NZ based FO's - half of whom aren't even AoA members (yet it was my AoA that negotiated them 2 years of grandfather rights!) get bypass pay - getting paid 20-30% more than me - a HKG based captain while sucking up EFP and getting 15-20 days off a month while living at home.

These days I get minimum G days per month and do 83.75 hours while my 777 peers do 3 long hauls/month and pull 20/30G's per month extra in OT consistently.


If I can get a bit extra I will, saying No will mean a lesser deal will be 'awarded' to us wether we like it or not.

[XFR8]

I love to read posts about A scalers written by morons that joined on Sh*t conditions, lecture everyone on how its done. Hilarious.:ugh:

[Frogman1484]

Cathay will pay cash to anyone who will help them out.

This is what they did in the past, when we were doing CC. They will keep on doing this until you figure out that it will not work and give up. The end result will be zero pay increase and them steam rolling you with their new RP, because our only weapon of CC did not work:ugh:.

Well said sleepercell. You also forgot to mention that cost of living in the US is a lot cheaper than here in HKG. As for the NZ boys, they just got a big win by only having to pay HKG tax!

[dartman2]

It's really simple, vote NO and you are no worse off than you were yesterday with significant potential upside. Harden up guys.

[flyingbynight]

As an aside: have a read of the comments section of SCMP for a laugh.


"Cathay should recruit their plane drivers locally, and mass culling them overpaid foreigners!

Modern passenger plane can virtually be flown from Hong Kong to London Heathrow; taking off and landing without any pilot on board, and in perfect safety!

Yep, it goes by the name 'drones'.
In fact judging from the MAS incidences of late, human navigators in the cockpit maybe the most dangerous factor involved in modern passenger planes."

[ACMS]

They must think CX management are pretty damn stupid then, otherwise they would already have replaced us if it was that easy.........:D

:mad:

[goathead]

Sleepercell

My heart bleeds for you :{ and for your 83.75 hours and for your 16 years In Hong Kong

Your just another troll

How is my grammar monster330

[AQIS Boigu]

Trust me mate...contract compliance does not work!:ugh:

All of the G day worker, commuters etc will make sure it does not work.

Voting yes...taking the money... Fighting for more with RP.:ok:...and the based guys too; most of them are worried if they don't "help out" CX will close the base...

[monster330]

Goat

Poor

[4 driver]

Some people will be pissed off no matter what the offer is by the company.
I will vote no.
Not because I think we will get a better offer. In fact, the opposite. I think we will put less dollars in our pocket in the end.
But we need to take a stand sometime. If we roll over now, so much for the roster practice and housing negotiations.

[Frogman1484]

4 driver....what a plan!:ugh:

[Anotherday]

I'm guessing

70%yes
10% no
20% won't vote, don't care

The 10% is approx 300 crew of which maybe 100 post on the forums venting why we should vote no.

[Oasis]

Yes for me.
I'll save CC for something more important... NEXT!

[illtellyouhowitis]

Yes for me.
I'll save CC for something more important... NEXT!

Oasis,


Care to share what is going to be more important than pay? I thought pay effects everyone!

To all those folk that want to save CC for something else, I would love to know what is going to get a backing as big as a pay deal...

Rostering? well, a lot of based and 777 guys are pretty happy, I am.
Housing? I'm sure all the based guys (1000+) are really going to get behind that one.

[Sqwak7700]

Yes for me.
I'll save CC for something more important... NEXT!

You would probably not use CC even if your life depended on it. You've bent over so much that you are unable to stand up when it counts.

So go do as you're told, you are fully out of your depth. :ok:

[Frogman1484]

Yes for me!:ok:

Will keep on fighting during RP for more!:D

[Oasis]

Squawk, I could also say you'd go into CC for anything or nothing.
It does not matter. Believe it or not, there are more important things than money.

The risk of a failed CC does not outweigh the upside in pay increase.

We got our increase without concessions, like we should, I'm happy, why aren't you?

[Yeager]

Good evening,

As if nothing has ever changed. Making the same mistakes over and over again.. That's why you're stuck with a **** company with a ****ty ****** management (pulling your b@lls to your heads) and ultimately a **** flying job, and once again (surprise, surprise) feeling pathetically sorry about yourselves.. It is hilarious.. Someone smart (probably an outsider) said something in the lines of - take the deal, and then do CC every god damn day of the year - in other words take the money on offer and call sick.

Good luck with it all boyz and gals and congrats on the offer :ok:

Chuck.

[bellcrank88]

In my mind you have three choices -
1. take the money and be happy
2. take the money and start looking for somewhere else to go
3. take the money and keep fighting for more.

To turn this down and start CC? Weigh the possible up and down sides. How much do you have to gain?

We have turned down raises in the past. Terry Hayes' one regret was turning down the 5% the company offered. We never got it back. We have tried CC and that ended up with 49 guys out of a job, a few deaths, a few nervous breakdowns, many, many many stressed out pilots, ...

CC is best kept as a threat. It is all you really have to pressure the company with. You really can't expect too much more than what the company offered for pay alone, so why waste the only bullet you have?

[Shep69]

^^ I don't believe this true--it assumes CC is the ONLY thing that will happen (i.e. that folks won't leave, recruiting targets will be met, and that folks can legally continue to fly when last minute changes to rosters induce sickness and fatigue). We are also bounded by FTL limitations and regulatory mandates (which don't favour the company) so there's an external regulatory limit as to how bad things can get.

It ALSO-and more importantly--assumes CC is a bluff or short term deal which it isn't. While there will be immediate effects, its real threat is in the longer term. Either pay and conditions are improved, or more people are hired (which offloads the burden on people currently at the airline to make up for them-something folks have been griping about anyway). At the end of the day in some fashion the airline WILL pay for it. The key point is that it is more efficient (and beneficial to both airline and pilots working there) to HAVE people go beyond their contract on an "on demand" or contingency basis without incurring the significant direct cost (and associated collateral costs) of more workers. I don't know that the airline fully appreciates this or understands it--it just assumes it can happen as a given and that (mostly irrational and unfounded) fear will motivate its workers to stay in line.

CC is a reduction in productivity caused by people refusing to do more than their contract requires. Nothing more. People working above and beyond have masked an ongoing manning problem at the company--such that the schedule can be perennially juggled to keep things working. Manning to the level required means hiring new people which means more money, benefits, housing, and training--it's costly. It also results in a contraction of labor to man capital assets (jets) which are very expensive when they are not making money--at a time where more deliveries are taken and the company faces pressures of market forces and its expansion plan. The training pipeline can't keep up as it is; now it has an additional loading of needing more qualified individuals to fly airplanes. This skilled labor doesn't come cheap (compared to some other career fields) and requires training, experience, and licenses. Market forces also constantly compete for this labor and there's no real way to "lock in" people to prevent them from leaving save either offer them working conditions and pay they like or exploit boundless fears of the unknown of going elsewhere.

CC can (and may well) run for months or even indefinitely. During this time the company will bleed cash (albeit maybe slowly) because it will realize the loss of productivity and be forced to spend more on assets--of some kind--to cover this. The effects of this may not be immediate, but absolutely will hurt the bottom line--the company will be paying much more than it has to to run the place. No one likes to see this happen (in a sane company workers profit when the company does)--but it's a regrettable situation caused by a power agenda rather than a profit agenda driving negotiations. There's no "team" effort which realizes everyone can gain. In time maybe this will be realized, but it WILL take time.

The pain to the flyers will be difficult rosters and a SOMEWHAT hostile work environment. Firing a few to intimidate others to keep in line won't work this time IMHO. This trick only works once. Difficult rosters can be managed too. And what is the big deal about some temporary pain ? --many flyers have fought in REAL wars and all have had much more adversity in life. There's nothing to be afraid of, but it would be better if we could have an offer which is genuine, keeps up with inflation, and doesn't have divisive strings attached.

What's the best solution ? A REAL pay adjustment that reflects not only inflation but also the increase in prevailing market value of pilots due to increasing demand for the skilled labour (and remember real inflation is often higher than a nation's declared inflation--especially in the US where the numbers are juggled to exclude food, energy, and other nondurables). As well as meaningful all to gain roster and ancillary condition improvements. Such an offer MUST be equitable ACROSS THE BOARD and not divisive in any way by nature.

All this is happening because we are facing an obstinate power (or positional) style of negotiation which assumes that something is given up if one acknowledges a need to adjust pay as living costs go up. It assumes that if any meaningful deal is reached (or that people are happy) somehow the company has lost and lost position and power (when in reality nothing could be further from the truth).

It really amazes me that a group of such well travelled individuals (who HAVE seen first hand living conditions in Mumbai, Manila, and many other places where people make a go of it under much harsher conditions than we have or ever will face) can be so afraid of resolutely making good decisions and doing the right thing.

The goal of CC is to demonstrate--by affecting the long term bottom line over time--that a reasonable pay rise and all to gain working conditions improvement is cheaper than hiring a bunch of people who wind up hating their jobs and where they work. The regrettable cost of this is the money lost by the company during it (which workers could share in the profits of) as well as the pain of the workers having to deal with unpleasant working conditions.

[XFR8]

Listen to Chuck, for he is wise.

[Threethirty]

Great post Shep!

[Oval3Holer]

Shep, some people will just never get it.

Those that think bases and freighter commands were taken "out of seniority" when they were offered to all, in seniority order, will just never get it.

The argument that the pay was lower so therefore it's "out of seniority" is not valid. Anyone who has ever worked at an airline with a REAL seniority system and different pay for different aircraft knows this.

The old "save the bullet for the real fight" has been heard time and time again. The bullet is not a bullet, it's a carrot.

Didn't we hear the same arguments before the LAST pay adjustment passed by a 75% vote? When was the bullet, that was promised to be used for FTLs, used?

My guess: the majority will roll over just like they always have and always will. The pilot group will be further divided, as intended.

[Frogman1484]

Sheep nice post, but you are mixing pay and RP as the overall solution.
That is what Cx wanted to do at the same time.

With this offer we have managed to get them to split it up. This works in our favour as we can take the pay offer and then work on RP for more money.

The longer CC goes on for the less effective it is! CC is not the silver bullet that some of you think it is.:ugh:

[mngmt mole]

Frogman. Explain. Why would CC be LESS effective the longer it went on ? Considering the state of the operation as it currently stands, it would seem to me that CC would become more effective every day it was employed. As an example, during the 'Great Sick Out' of 1999, that became very effective and resulted in 26 jets being parked. CC is a similar tactic, effectively 'less' bodies doing the work, ergo, more jets 'parked'. Happy to hear why you think differently.

[Frogman1484]

Mole do not confuse a sick out with CC. They are very different actions. The 29 jets you are referring was due to a sickout not CC! In a sickout most of us do not go to work. In CC we don't help out on G days...not the same!

CC did not work in the past as we will always have people that will go and help out crew control. In the past Cx paid cash to individuals to man the aircraft, they also doubled up on reserve standby, they offered personal roster changes to commuters if they helped them out. The list of incentives goes on and on.
As you know, there will always be a guy that will accept the bribe out of self interest. The longer CC goes on the more guys will say it is too hard and accept their offers to help. That is why CC does not work on the long term.:ok:

[joblow]

Well now it's decision time . Either take the money or be prepared for a long fight

[raven11]

No one likes to see this happen (in a sane company workers profit when the company does)--but it's a regrettable situation caused by a power agenda rather than a profit agenda driving negotiations. There's no "team" effort which realizes everyone can gain. In time maybe this will be realized, but it WILL take time.

An excellent point.....sums up their approach for the past 20 years....

Their strategy is now costing them and needs to change. It's time we were treated as members of the same team.

[goathead]

My grandfather fought in fought In WW1 , he'd be rolling in his grave listening to some of you
Shep another excellent post.
The powers that be must be laughing all the way to the bank with this hoodwink of a deal they have offered.

[Bob Hawke]

Goathead, me thinks it will be a short sighted laugh to the bank. Shep has done it again - explaining it all rather succinctly.

[airplaneridesrfun]

I can't read very well. Did the offer include proper BPP payment for FCN's, and compliance with the E/O? Also, how did we lose 4 months on our pay increment! We used to get raises Jan 1st.

[White None]

Pilots positioned in, lets say the centre 80% of the bell curve, arguably justifiably, like to think of themselves as logical thinking, intelligent, and decisive. This generally makes us cautious, through wary, towards defensive of the idea of seeking the advice of others. It's a failing.

Consider whether Branson, Trump etc make their own decisions or seek the opinion of others who are firstly better informed, but also on their side.

In the face of this decision, we are surrounded by "Noise" including our own; however, we actually have a ready made team of generally like-minded individuals with generally similar motivations who are genuinely on our side, not just paid to be - Lucky Huh?

Whilst I intend to continue listening to others opinions and do, as it were, the 'Due Diligence' before going firm on Yes/No, I am yet to find a reason why I should not regard as 'Best Practice' the counsel of the NC and GC who have lived and breathed this way more than I. I would aspire to the above mentioned character traits, but maybe rejecting the guidance of my 'experts' would be a little arrogant? Sure don't aspire to that.

[Mill Worker]

For those of you that didn't bother to read the "recommendation":

"You must now decide on whether this Offer meets what you consider to be your worth to this Company" 10/9/14

Seems fairly straight forward.

[White None]

Exactly! In a democracy the leadership makes recommendations but above all else respects the right of the masses who elected them to choose freely. They do however wholeheartedly recommend following their recommendations.

And I'm still doing due diligence, just trying to cut through the noise.

[Pogie]

Blowback wrote:

Okay the offer is derisory and insulting BUT my opinion is to take it
Tell the company that the membership is accepting it but under duress
there is absolutely nothing to stop us enacting contract compliance the next day and doing our own thing , With all the new aircraft arriving crew control is having an increasingly difficult time crewing flights so a well managed CC will be very effective , but it should have been done during the summer rush ,now fall is here it will not be as effective until Christmas and New Year
Unless you are all prepared to do something about G day workers the small minority will undermine the efforts of the majorityBrokeback,

Is your keyboard broken, or are you just retarded? The kids that took the short bus to school knew more about punctuation and grammar than you do.

[Shep69]

G day workers and folks answering phones/cutting deals can certainly detract from the effectiveness of CC, but how much ? Overtime costs money, G day pay costs money, shuffling schedules and delays costs money, and positioning people costs money. Off station reserve costs money and FTL clocks tick. Defensive reserve runs FTLs and if someone is used burns more hours as well as often overtime which is expensive. Shuffle and delays also start to induce FTL problems. Many are in overtime even without formal CC. High time flyers will time out by FTLs and have to sit. As long as there remains a strong baseline coalition I think it will be effective. If we were dramatically overmanned things might be different but we're not. Folks cheating might extend the time necessary to stay in CC but the loss of productivity will still be there. One never gets something for nothing.

Thanks and Cheers

[iceman50]

Nearly everything there you have described, in your last post, can be discussed under RP's. So why blow "official" CC away on the pay offer. The cost of overtime etc they are quite happy with as it is still lower than the full cost of extra pilots!

[Shep69]

Who says "official" CC is blown while it is happening ? And that extended time in CC WHILE negotiating won't have effects that worsen down the road ? We've blown enough time already and what do we have to show for it ? The GFBA was largely a stall.

There are many facets of work to rule which can be implemented in stages at times and places of our choosing. In the US it took being in work to rule to start negotiations in earnest.

The only thing that would detract from entering CC while negotiating is if WE are unsure it would work or WE believe it to be a bluff.

CC IMHO isn't a "trump card" -- it's a process which well may take time and pave the way for follow on activities would they become appropriate. It can be turned off at any time when an acceptable deal or deals are reached. Or portions can be scaled back if there is definite progress (things like NO discretion becomes limited discretion). If the coalition can be held together (and here is the sticking point) it becomes more effective with time--and can serve as a great adjunct to force real negotiations in earnest.

In many insurgency wars, a force with limited resources meets a much larger force and prevails through a war of attrition--effectively attriting the other side's will to protract a conflict over time--fighting the conflict ends up costing too much. Although CC isn't the be all end all we would all agree straight up work-to-rule IS limited in its assets and scope. While these are significant, and costly over time, they aren't massive. They decrease productivity; not end it altogether.

A key point being while in CC WE become the ones driving the fight--not reacting to some 'offer.'

[Anotherday]

Shep, some people will just never get it.

Those that think bases and freighter commands were taken "out of seniority" when they were offered to all, in seniority order, will just never get it.

The argument that the pay was lower so therefore it's "out of seniority" is not valid. Anyone who has ever worked at an airline with a REAL seniority system and different pay for different aircraft knows this.

The old "save the bullet for the real fight" has been heard time and time again. The bullet is not a bullet, it's a carrot.

Didn't we hear the same arguments before the LAST pay adjustment passed by a 75% vote? When was the bullet, that was promised to be used for FTLs, used?

My guess: the majority will roll over just like they always have and always will. The pilot group will be further divided, as intended.

I needed a laugh. Yes they offered commands to everyone, right now irrespective of your seniority if you ditched $60k plus in housing and took $24K instead. Yes while fighting to convince the company we need more pay some took command and the opportunity to get paid way less.

Good for you. And much like now, if no-one selfishly took the cheap command offer it would send the company back to the drawing board for something better. Didn't happen then, won't happen now.

Everyone has their own unique set of circumstances and at CX they will always act in their own best interests.

[Mill Worker]

No expert on RP07, but I imagine the next time RP's are "negotiated" it will go something like this:

CX: we want more productivity. If you bend over and don't squeal too much we may give you a couple of extra dollars (in normal circumstances).
AOA: we don't want to work more for virtually nothing.
CX: no problem, you are now on 90 days notice to terminate RP07 after which we will be rostering to the AFTL's (utilising some extra variations that we have tricked the CAD into).

Negotiation complete. Whats's next? Housing...

[Mill Worker]

I don't disagree Rod, but one will come before the other...

[JPJP]

April Fools Day ?

Did they really just offer you this insulting "raise", and then make it effective on April 1st ? April Fools day.

The Swire Group certainly have an interesting sense of humor. :ugh:

[meanagre]

They introduced B scales on April 1st as well

[CowardlyPilot]

I don't understand how the public doesn't know about the new deal the new pilots are getting. They think we are all greedy pilots that get 100k a year for housing etc etc.

Why doesn't the union let the people know that the new guys are only getting 37k a month plus 10 hkpa???......don't think they would believe it personally.

[goathead]

Now is the time
they are on the edge , we know it , they know it . Vote accordingly. Don't let this moment pass, only to be disappointed again ......vote with your gut