MAN ENGINE START AIRBUS

[AF330]

Hi everyone,
Check this link: Engine Manual Start and Ignition Panel | Engine Manual Start Switches (http://www.efbdesktop.com/engines/sys-5.6.0.html)
And this: Engine Manual Start and Ignition Panel | Engine N1 Mode Switch (http://www.efbdesktop.com/engines/sys-5.6.1.html)

What is the use to have this????
What do these buttons do? You use apu bleed, isn't it?

Thanks to explain this!

[safelife]

"PPRuNe" translates into professional pilots rumour network.
Sorry to say but your questions aren't really appropriate here.

[Amadis of Gaul]

safelife, as regards to this being a pro-only forum, I think you'll find that that ship has not only sailed, but has long since disappeared beyond the horizon never to be seen again.

AF330, the links you posted describe the functions of those switches pretty well, but I'll give you a little more info: a manual start can be performed regardless of what the bleed source is. The circumstances under which a manual start may be called for vary by airline, but typically a manual start is recommended (though not required):

After aborting a start because of:

•Engine Stall
•Engine EGT Overlimit
•LO START AIR PRESS
•No N1 Rotation
•Hung Start

When expecting a start abort because of:

•Degrading bleed performance, due to hot conditions, or at a high-altitude airport.
•An engine with a reduced EGT margin, due to hot conditions, or at a high-altitude airport.
•Marginal performance of the external pneumatic power.
•Tailwind greater than 10 knots.

Hope this helps.

[TURIN]

Does anyone else get the feeling that AF330 is just sending you all up?

I mean, look at the questions. You would have to be a pretty spectacular 13 year old to write that sort of stuff in your own language never mind a non-native one.

OK AF330, come clean. Who are you and what's your purpose? :suspect:

[ACMS]

Some Airbus's went missing in Libya recently, maybe he's doing a self study course to fly one :eek:

Seriously I must say for someone who purports to only be 13 he does ask some pretty direct technical questions.

Mmmmmm

[AF330]

??????
Are you serious? Just found this on efbdesktop and if you check my previous topic, about engines, I don't get the use to have this button. For me, there is nothing technical in this, it is just a button that I found on efbdesktop, where I didn't understand what was the N1 and the EPR stuff means! And are we not allowed to learn for our passion?
And for your info, I am going to be 14. You could check that my previous posts were all basic questions for you but I don't understand it.

[Turbine D]

Sorry to say but your questions aren't really appropriate here
Nor are your comments…:E

[AF330]

Turbine D: "Nor are your comments…"

Thanks Turbine D to help me to be able to learn something that I really like!

I did some researches and I think that I have understood but not sure at all:

The engine 1 and 2 button is to open the starter valve so that the air goes to the turbine starter. Right?
The fuel quantity to add is decided by the FADEC system by looking at the EPR to know the quantity. If you press that button it will add fuel by looking at N1, am I right?

Thanks a lot.

[Amadis of Gaul]

We should bear in mind that young people today have access to a lot more information than we did at that age. When I was thirteen, I was very heavily into airplanes, but it would have taken months for me to get a hold of anything like an FCOM or similar document. It didn't help that at that age I was on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain, but even had I wanted to get training materials for Eastern Bloc aircraft, it would have taken writing to relevant officials and hoping for the best. AF330 and his ilk can get all that in a keystroke or two, and I'm a little jealous (in a good way). Also, out of a 7 billion population of the Earth, is it really so far-fetched that some young people might, indeed, be "spectacular"? I give AF330 credit for actually admitting that he's just a kid who loves airplanes. I suspect there are a few here who are in the same position, but will never admit it, as if it's something to be ashamed of.

AF330, as to the answer to your latest question, there is a bit more to it than that, but in essence you are correct, in N1 mode the primary parameter for thrust setting is N1 % instead of EPR. Keep in mind that CFM-powered 320s ONLY have N1 mode, thus that switch is not present on those aircraft. That's also the reason why CFM and IAE-powered 320s have slightly different EDs and SDs

[Turbine D]

Hello AF330,

First of all, you need to know there are difference between jet engine manufacturers and what they use as their main thrust control parameters. Rolls Royce and Pratt & Whitney use EPR to control thrust. GE uses N1 to control thrust. N1 is fan speed. GE believes fan speed is a better overall indicator of true thrust as it takes into account the air that bypasses the core engine. So if the A-320 is powered by a CFM56 engine (partly a GE product), it will have the N1 mode button and the EPR button will not be present. Some of the A-320 have IAE engines that are a product of Pratt & Whitney, Rolls Royce and others that use EPR as the measure to control thrust. Other than the N1, EPR, your understanding is basically correct. :ok:

[Turbine D]

Turin,
I mean, look at the questions. You would have to be a pretty spectacular 13 year old to write that sort of stuff in your own language never mind a non-native one.

You need to go back to school and have a look see. Today, pre-schoolers are taught to count to 100, foreign languages are taught starting in the 3rd grade. My grandson was proficient in speaking Japanese in the 5th grade and he is now into Mandarin Chinese in the 10th grade. Science and Engineering also are accelerated from when you were in school. So, if you are doubtful, take some time away from PPRuNe and discover what is happening in education today, it isn't the same as when you were 13 years old.

[ACMS]

Sure that's reflective of the education standards I see everyday in 21 year olds!!:ugh:

Crap, a hell of a lot of 21 y.o's can't string a sentence together on paper and need a calculator to add simple numbers. And that's "educated" second officers I fly with :D

Lost without spell check and an App.....

[TURIN]

A point taken Turbine D, and this discussion is probably not for Tech Log.

However,
AF330's grasp of the English written word is, imho damn good for a 13 yr old.
His grasp of technical concepts is obtuse (no offence) to the point of being written by someone who has a perfect understanding of the systems but is deliberately skewing the answers from those in the know just to wind them up.
Have a look at the other threads, especially the ones in the North America forum.

I still think he/she's having a laugh and doing it very well. :D

[EcamSurprise]

Over here where I live they have bi-lingual kindergardens and then there are many bi-lingual schools where they actually learn certain subjects in a different language (Biology will be taught in French for example) and they will even take the A-Level equivalent in their own language, English, French & Italian (or whatever the languages are at the school) so they also have qualifications for the different countries. But, if they don't do amazingly in them, it doesn't matter because that's just an extra so (apparently) they don't feel any extra pressure.

I wish I had that when growing up in England rather than a lazy French teacher who was just reading out of a text book and teaching us nothing!

I struggle to speak the basics of the languages where I am whereas my partner speaks 6 fluent languages. It makes us Brits look pathetic.

[Ghost_Rider737]

Folks why is it that after an automatic (fadec) aborted engine start (and after 30 sec dry crank sequence) do we need to do a manual engine start ?

Why not do another automatic engine start ?

I initially thought that maybe we need both igniters but according to fcom - an automatic engine start after aborted start does use both igniters....I can't seem to find the reason for a manual start....

[AF330]

Hi everyone,

@TURIN: I don't get what you are saying. Haven't you ever met a 13-14 year talking (only) 2 languages? I have been to the British council aux Invalides in the "bilangual" section. My first language is french and I am in a French school and mostly all my friends speak at least 2 languages: French- german or chineese or even portugees.
And just for your info TURIN, I am also learning German since 3 years as my second language. And when I am on pprune, of course I make mistakes but, It will show that I have made mistakes. Right click and then I see the different spelings and I chose the one that I think is the right one! ;)

@EcamSurprise: Exactly! When I read your last line, I am also thinking to learn chineese or spanich next year when I will be in Lycee (sorry don't know it in English!). Maybe it will help me to enter l'École National de l'aviation civile (ENAC) at Toulouse, or maybe to enter an airline? Well, it's my dream! So I really like to discover new places, new cultures and learn things about aviation! I am maybe thinking to pass my BIA next year which will give me the opportunity to fly a C-172 around Paris with an aeroclub!

@Ghost_Rider737: Really? Very intresting!

@Turbine D: Thanks a lot to let me learn and to have answered my question. You really are very helpful! So can I say it like this: basically when I put for example Climb thrust, it adds the fuel in the combuster. But to know where to stop it will look at the EPR or N1. So the FADEC systems know each EPR/N1 for each speed to be able to add the right quabtity of fuel, do I have the concept?

Thanks a lot to everyone.

[Tinwacker]

AF330
The engine 1 and 2 button is to open the starter valve so that the air goes to the turbine starter. Right?
The fuel quantity to add is decided by the FADEC system by looking at the EPR to know the quantity. If you press that button it will add fuel by looking at N1, am I right?

Now I have read all these notes I am getting the idea....

1/ Yes, manual mode
2/ Yes, but....

The N1 button is not for starting. It's an Alternate mode function.
It's for changing the datum from EPR to N1 because possibly the FADEC engine control has a fault. The MEL will direct you to now use the Alternate mode setting by switching to N1 mode.

[AF330]

Thanks,
Related to ventilation: Ventilation Control Panel | Blower Fan Switch (http://www.efbdesktop.com/pneumatics/sys-15.5.0.html)
And does this air ejected to the atmosphere or do the fans keep adding air without removing it?

Could anyone explain me the center tanks system for Airbus?

[Amadis of Gaul]

With respect to avionics ventilation panel, read more here:

A320 Fire Protection (http://www.smartcockpit.com/aircraft-ressources/A320-Fire_Protection.html)

Proceed to page 1.26.30 "Avionics Bay", where you will read more about how that system woks.


With respect to center tank, what do you want to know?

[AF330]

Thanks a lot Amadis of Gaul,
I read the F-COM and I still would like to confirm this as It was a little bit complicated to understand.
When we press on the Blower fan switch, does the air in the avionics, dumped in the atmosphere with an outflow valve?
How does the cargo part get air? Is it the compressed air in the cabin going to the cargo part of the plane?
And I didn't understand what was the center tanks concept. Why do we have to wait to put fuel inside the wing tanks?

Thanks

[Amadis of Gaul]

And I didn't understand what was the center tanks concept. Why do we have to wait to put fuel inside the wing tanks?


I'm not sure I understand your question. Firstly, there is a substantial difference between the way the center tank fuel behaves on the 319/320 and the A321. Secondly, what do you mean by "wait"? Are you talking about during the fueling process or during flight?

[AF330]

Thanks,
If possible, both, during flight and ground

[EcamSurprise]

I'm not sure I understand your question. Firstly, there is a substantial difference between the way the center tank fuel behaves on the 319/320 and the A321. Secondly, what do you mean by "wait"? Are you talking about during the fueling process or during flight?

Interestingly the new A320s are fitted with 321 style fuel jets, allowing gravity feeding from the centre tanks.

[AF330]

Hi,
What do you mean by gravity feeding?
Check this: Fuel Control Panel | Fuel Mode Select Switch (http://www.efbdesktop.com/fuel/sys-9.2.3.html)
Could you please explain this? For the A320 or the A330 if possible!

[Ghost_Rider737]

Gravity feed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_feed)

[AF330]

Thanks,
But what is the story with the center tanks which will have to wait for 5 minutes or something like that? I dob't understand why there is no fuel in the center tanks during tge flight...


Thanks

[Tinwacker]

AF330

Your questioning is starting to become annoying over details that were mentioned in the notes that you displayed.
I will answer a question but you should go to an Aviation School and learn some very basic concepts to help yourself here.....

But what is the story with the center tanks which will have to wait for 5 minutes or something like that? I dob't understand why there is no fuel in the center tanks during tge flight...

Centre tank pumps will run automatically as mentioned until the pumps low pressure is sensed, fuel card logic will switch these pumps off after 5 minutes to prevent damage to the pumps.

MAN selected you have control manually of the centre fuel pumps

FAULT the centre tank still has fuel when it should be empty as comparing to the level of fuel in the wings at that moment.
Crew action, I think, would probably be to select MAN and manually pump the centre fuel. Cockpit observation would possibly have detected this inbalance before the FAULT appeared.

No fuel in centre tank, engines have used that fuel earlier in the flight, if centre tank fuel was uplifted.

[BOAC]

Absolutely, Tinwacker, and it is a site-wide moderation issue.

There are two forums where folk like AF330 and EINULL should be - Spectators Balcony (Spotters Corner) - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner-52/) and/or Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies) - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies-14/) where the forum headers say it all. Dealing with ??13 yr olds?? (or ??trolls??) who claim to fly Airbus or 'anonymous' users providing no clues here is a waste of time, and on those other fora most of us, myself included, will be more than happy to 'point' genuine posters in the right direction with answers or links. This endless series of 'questions' is a total farce, mostly all solvable with a search engine. If you recall we had that awful 'SSS' or whatever he was called a while back with similar postings (remember his 'reduced power' saga??) until eventually I think JT 'sorted him out'.

These are certainly not 'the best in practical technical discussions on the web'!!

[john_tullamarine]

Probably time to finish the discussion.