why oh why does flaring suck the lemon :-( [Archive]

9 lives

4th Sep 2014, 14:51

The idea is not to land, but to keep it flying ever more slowly.

This is the key.

Arrive over the threshold at about the right altitude, and airspeed, and with everything pretty stable. From there, pretend as though you're in bare feet, and the runway is very cold and wet. You know that you're going to have to put your feet on it at some point, but you'd like to delay that unpleasant experience as long as you can.

To do that, you will not climb the plane, but you will try to prevent it from touching for as long as you can. With the power at idle, it's not going to fly off the end of the runway, so don't worry about stopping, just slow down, and down, and down, holding it off the ground, until it settles on for lack of lift.

Oh, by the way, the stall warning horn will be sounding by then, and that's excellent! And, bonus, as you just stalled nicely onto the runway, the aircraft is very unlikely able to bounce!

The flare seems to be something pilots want to get over with as quickly as possible. Why, it's fun! Play around there, get a few extra seconds of pleasure from it! If you have a nice long runway, you can even feed in a bit of power to hold yourself there. Take the time to look more "around" to get a better sense of the visual cues. The more time you can spend in the flare, the better you'll be at landing. Don't rush to get through it.

For fun, in the winter, I'll fly my C 150 for miles over a suitable (for landing) frozen lake, a foot or two up, with the stall horn screaming - for miles. It's like playing that game with your significant other of getting as close as you can, without touching. See it as being fun to perfect the skill of the flare, and it will come to you easily.

If you've ever seen the videos of one wheel landings, that's exactly what those pilots are doing, holding the plane in a very prolonged flare.

Good luck, you'll get it....

funfly

4th Sep 2014, 15:07

Correct set up when you turn final
right speed on approach - not too fast.
then when you are just off the ground - TRY NOT TO LAND just continue holding it off by pulling slowly back on the stick and you will land without knowing it.

Discorde

4th Sep 2014, 15:13

My initial progress was slow (I was learning on a taildragger), hampered by airsickness (esp during stalling) & inability to judge flare height.

Change of instructor: the new chap got me to line up but instead of opening the throttle the following exchange took place:

'Look ahead, note where the horizon intersects the cowling.'
'Okay.'
'Memorise that image. Now, look down a bit, note how high you are above the ground.'
'Okay.'
'Memorise that image.'
'Okay.'
'Right, now fly a standard circuit and don't let the aircraft touch down till the horizon's in the right place and the height is the same as now.'

It worked. I soloed a few circuits later. The aircraft was a taildragger but the same principle applies on a trike. Just get your instructor to demo the landing attitude and then memorise it.

Stay with it! You'll get there!

ChickenHouse

4th Sep 2014, 16:01

Arrive over the threshold at about the right altitude, and airspeed, and with everything pretty stable.

*ROTFL* absolutely correct, BUT ... that is not the tricky part, as most training planes will settle almost by themselves, if you are that far. Add headwind, crosswind, a little too fast, a little too low and you get the shaking. What helped me in that days was landing at large airports and asking for a very long final - just playing on long final with the aiming point.

Don't try to learn "the perfect landing", it is an illusion and similar to the wow girl - most probably, you will never met her. Landings are dirty fun instead ... ;-).

Mach Jump

4th Sep 2014, 16:17

why oh why does flaring suck the lemon :-(

Because 'flaring' isn't a single significant action, but a series of very small pitch up movements, separated by small, but varying 'gaps'.

StepTurn is right to say:

Arrive over the threshold at about the right altitude, and airspeed, and with everything pretty stable.

It's really important to consistently start the process of landing, over the threshhold, at the correct height, airspeed, and in trim.

Then, smoothly reduce the power to idle, and maintain the correct airspeed by lowering the nose slightly.

When the ground starts to seem to rush up towards you, raise the nose a little, just enough to arrest the descent. As the aircraft slows, and sinks again, keep raising the nose in small increments, adjusting the 'gaps' between them to allow the aircraft to sink as little or as much as you need, but each time just enough to arrest the descent. If you overdo this at any point, DO NOT LOWER THE NOSE, but hold the new attitude for a little longer this time. The aircraft will soon slow and start sinkIng again, then carry on as before, until you reach the LANDING ATTITUDE. THEN HOLD THE LANDING ATTITUDE and let the aircraft sink onto the ground without any further pitch up. At the same time, of course, you must also maintain the centreline with the ailerons, and maintain runway alignment with the rudder.

If you don't know what the LANDING ATTITUDE is, ask your instructor to show you. It's the same as the TAKEOFF ATTITUDE. In most types this is with the nose just on, but not covering the horizon. If you are strugling to recognise the LANDING ATTITUDE, then you are probably sitting too low down and need a cushion to lift you up a bit.

As others have said, you will get there with practice, however frustrating it may seem at the moment. Just make sure you have a clear picture of what you are trying to achieve and have everyhing going for you. ;)

MJ:ok:

9 lives

4th Sep 2014, 17:02

just playing on long final with the aiming point

Herein can be a part of the problem - the "aiming point" must be the first half of an appropriate length runway. Any more particular than that, and you're setting yourself up for trouble in the early phases of flying. With lots of experience, you can pick a point, and gently touch the wheels within a few feet of it. With little experience, just get it on the ground nicely. Work on precisely where you do that as your experience grows.

If you have chosen a runway of suitable length for a modest skill pilot in that aircraft, and you arrive over the threshold at the right altitude, and speed, and gently pull the power off, you're going to stop nicely on that runway, unless you utterly fail to attempt to stop. Focus on your landing flare technique, and staying laterally on the the runway, once the power is off, everything else will sort itself out in terms of runway length.

You are much less safe forcing the plane onto the surface 10 knots too fast, closer to the threshold, than allowing it to slow while still airborne, and overflying a few hundred feet.

Camargue

4th Sep 2014, 17:09

All very good points, but even so having flown the perfect approach and having the right attitude doesn't help if you are still 10ft up when you run out of lift.

Even after few years and a few hours I do occasionally for some unfathomable reason misjudge the height and find my self having to add a dollop of power to save my blushes...

practice makes perfect and it will fall into place.

Discorde

4th Sep 2014, 17:30

This handout (http://steemrok.com/how%20do%20we%20fly/) may be helpful - the landing section is at the end. Copyright restrictions are lifted for this publication if you want to make copies. Good luck!

RatherBeFlying

4th Sep 2014, 22:17

My standard advice is to wait for the moment when you can make out ground texture before beginning the flare.

At that point look at the end of the runway while holding off the a/c with increasing small pitch increments until the landing attitude has been reached -- all the while keeping the fuselage pointed down the runway with rudder.

With xwind you will need bank to control drift.

I prefer a steeper approach as it becomes easier to see where you will hit (if you don't flare:p). Don't forget to maintain recommended approach speed as a steep approach requires sufficient energy to flare.

Hold off on the 3 degree ILS approaches until you are working on your instrument rating;)

T21

5th Sep 2014, 00:35

I used to find with students having your problem that two things would help them in addition to what has been stated in previous replies.

1/ A thorough re briefing or a session or both on stalling. Pointing out attitudes for a gentle stall but mostly the feel of the controls and their effect on the aircraft as the speed decreases.

2/ Then I would demonstrate on the approach that the flare does not have to happen in one go. If the approach is done at the correct airspeed then you have plenty to spare as you approach the ground. So at about 10 to 15 feet above the ground I would apply a little back pressure ( reminding them that the elevator is sensitive at that speed ). That would slow the aircraft a little but more importantly it would slow down the rate of descent. So now the ground rush is much less severe. Then you can flare at the correct height and again remembering to be gentle at first but as the airspeed decreases to the stall you need to be more positive with the controls.If done right the stall warner will sound and the main wheels will touch. Do not release the (by now) full back pressure or the nose will bang onto the ground.

It seemed to work for me and all my students landed that way and some even progressed onto tail draggers with little effort.

dubbleyew eight

5th Sep 2014, 00:47

I'm sure in the modern day and age this will not be possible but when I learnt on a quiet country airstrip...

we would takeoff and do a circuit, land, power on and climb to 50 feet, approach, flare and land then up to 50 feet and do it again.
on a typical circuit we would do 6 landings with a takeoff into the overrun area at the end.
obviously we knew the ground conditions at each end.

the technique well and truly sorts out your flare problems in a few hours.

Big Pistons Forever

5th Sep 2014, 04:14

Almost every flight school specifies a too high approach speed. If the aircraft is flown at the correct approach speed then you should be able to slowly but continuously raise the nose to the landing attitude, hold that, and have the aircraft settle on to the ground with no further pitch change required.

What I see far to often is a too fast approach with excessive float as the poor student ballooning on the first attempt to flare followed by a series of divergent pitch and altitude excursions and the student attempts to pitch to a landing attitude followed by either a nose wheel first touch down or a hard landing as the aircraft runs out of speed and falls out of the sky. :ugh:

With 2 up and half tanks, if you are flying your C 172 or Pa 28 faster than 60 kts when you cross the end of the runway you are going too fast. :=

gemma10

5th Sep 2014, 06:26

Absolutely bang on. Took me two years in the AA5 to drum that into my noddle. :ok:

Genghis the Engineer

5th Sep 2014, 06:54

It's rare and interesting to see a thread where everybody agrees about the right answer. I'm just going to be another boringly concordant voice, to whit....

- Fly at the approach speed in the manual, adjusted correctly for weight - no faster, and usually no slower. As BPF says, in a PA28 with 2 POB and half tanks, that's a smidge under 60, not the 75kn I've seen in a few schools.

- Don't look down - look at the far end of the runway and position accordingly.

- Don't try and land. Keep trying to stay just above the surface until the aeroplane gives you no choice in the matter and lands anyhow.

- Nobody expects a 20 hour student to be delivering consistently "good" landings. You're not deficient, just still learning.

G

mad_jock

5th Sep 2014, 07:12

And if its any help to your ego I have over 20 000 landings under my belt and in the works machine the other day I raped the runway. Just didn't time the last bit of the round out and left it what felt like 20mm to low. This was in CAVOK and 4 knots of wind. Its always the good wx days which I produce my worst.

Had to go and do the walk of shame and say sorry to the punters.

Experience just alters the ratio of good -> acceptable -> poor.

It never completely gets rid of the poor ones though. But we keep trying to be perfect but never succeed.

I have posted this before

Your proberly missing the vital phrase.

First of all get the instructor to show you the landing picture.

As you fly down the approach make sure your trimmed.

As the runway appears to starts moving towards you pitch the nose up to the straight and level attitude.

As the runway sides start coming up towards you pitch to the previously demonstrated picture while putting the power to idle. Waggle the rudder pedals so the instructor thinks your actually doing something with them.

Hold the attitude. Now this is the important bit.

In a loud clear voice say "get down you whore"

Once the aircraft has done as its told hold the same picture by increasing back pressure then lower the nose gently to the runway while continuing to pretend you know what your doing with the rudder.

Jobs a goodun.

PS ladys can substitue bastard instead of whore

PPS this method works up to 10 tons in my experence

It was just the bang of impact came before I could tell it what to do :(

2high2fastagain

5th Sep 2014, 09:51

Jock, that well was worth posting again.

mad_jock

5th Sep 2014, 10:25

The biggest thing is to relax and calm down to a panic.

Planes land in spite of the students control inputs.

9 lives

5th Sep 2014, 11:29

I have over 20 000 landings under my belt and ..... the other day I raped the runway.

Yup, me too! I brought my wife an daughter back from a visit with friends, and bounced the taildragger much more than I'm willing to accept. I apologized to my wife and daughter for the poor landing. My daughter replied: "It's okay daddy, it wasn't your fault!". "Yes it was" I replied, "That was a horrible landing! I should go and do it again!". She giggled....

As MJ says, experience just stretches out the ratio of good to poor landings, it will never entirely prevent poor landings.

With the rather broad agreement here as to the characteristics of a good flare entry, particularly getting the approach speed correct (slower!), students who are a little frustrated with their progress have some good advice, but better, they have some basis upon which to ask their instructors why faster approach speeds are being taught?

Altitude and speed are both energy. For a tricycle aircraft to land, it must be exhausted of energy, so it settles on. Any other technique will have a somewhat violent outcome. When you cross the threshold, the energy sum of your airspeed and altitude is what you must get rid of, before you can land. So if you're carrying extra speed, and/or altitude, the ONLY effect of that will be to displace your touchdown point down the runway, while you get rid of the energy.

The use of flaps and slipping are two good ways to get rid of excess energy, but proper glidepath and speed control on short final are better. Think of those cool sci fi movies where the spacecraft is maneuvering for approach through the acid cloud of the distant planet, and the computer is constantly drawing rectangles through which the pilot is to fly.... Imagine those triangles are being drawn for you, on the heads up display in your 152... Now imagine that in the top left corner of each triangle there is also a target speed, and in each triangle down the short final approach that speed is reducing by 1 knots, so as to be about 1.2 Vs just as you cross the threshold with the wheels a few feet up.

Flying a faster approach, "add five for the wife and kids" seems to reassure some pilots, and on a bumpy day, yes, it can make control a little easier. But plan to get rid of it very short final. If this means slowing on short final, that's okay.

impulse9

5th Sep 2014, 19:47

I never really got it until I read "stick and rudder", then it all seemed to come together. Recommend that for sure.

Chase_BHX

7th Sep 2014, 07:52

Now 70+ hours (started learning at 52) and gone solo but still ratio of good landings rather low. So you have plenty of time.

PA28 taught approach at 65 to end of runway (fully trimmed while keeping numbers in same position in windscreen), reduce throttle, eyes to end of runway, maintain eyes at same height as if standing next to plane, gradually keep pulling back and plane will gradually transition from flying to landing as the the stall warner goes off and yoke is fully back.

Do all my bits but plane does not seem to do its bit - either dropping nose slightly (flat landing and bounce) or rising nose slightly (climbing back to 10 ft and sounding stall warner).

Reading mad_jock seems I am omitting the verbal instruction to the plane.

9 lives

7th Sep 2014, 09:47

Reading mad_jock seems I am omitting the verbal instruction to the plane.

Indeed. I have found that airplanes tend to know when they are being referred to as female dogs, and will then obey. This is a technique best reserved for solo flight, however!

One of the successes is to remove as many variables as possible. Get as much established as far back on final as practical, so on short final, you can focus on timing the flare. This extends to glide approaches. Most airplanes are okay with glide approaches - take the extra time to practice gliding in, and landings with power available will seem easier, then you won't really bother with the power so much.

Genghis the Engineer

7th Sep 2014, 12:09

PA28 taught approach at 65 to end of runway

I can't think of any PA28 variant for which that is the correct way to fly it.

Working in knots, every variant I've ever flown you start faster, but with the exception of the Arrow, all of them you want to be either slightly or considerably slower than 65kn over the hedge and onto the runway.

If it's a training aeroplane, then it's most likely a PA28-161 I'm guessing. That would be around 70 initially, slowing to 63 at MTOW, but a typical training weight of 2POB and half tanks would be around 2100lb, maybe 1920lb solo and you need to scale with weight. That gives a speed over the hedge of 60kn 2-up, 58 solo.

The reason you're bouncing is probably that you are approaching 5-7 knots too fast. Incidentally, the maths says that also increases the incremental g due to vertical gusts by about 8-10%. That may not sound very much, but can make a significant difference when trying to concentrate upon getting an approach right.

Out of interest, is the stall warner going off in the flare? If it's not, that's a fairly reliable clue that you flew an approach too fast in a PA28.

G

dubbleyew eight

7th Sep 2014, 12:20

if it was easy everyone would be able to fly aeroplanes and even airplanes.:E:E:E

9 lives

7th Sep 2014, 14:02

The pilot of a single engined aeroplane sees the prop turning counterclockwise, where the airplane pilot sees it turning clockwise?

Piper.Classique

7th Sep 2014, 14:40

Supercub pilots do it on springs!

cattletruck

7th Sep 2014, 15:03

My second ever "offsite" landing during training had power lines running (legally) over the threshold (or so it seemed to this noob). I pulled the best landing ever in my young career so far, deeper than normal approach (plenty of rwy), early flare and slower flare than normal, and the wheels just greased themselves onto the tarmac.

Then I went back to my regular drome and tried the same thing again and again (minus the deep approach), and most of my landings were greasers.

Thinking about this and experimenting a bit more with it, I came up with the term 'standing on your ground effect' which was easily identifiable in calm weather. Essentially you begin the flare high, about 20-25ft, you begin pulling the nose up very slowly at first and you feel yourself 'standing' on your ground effect as you begin sinking, you continue pulling the nose up in a very smooth uninterrupted manner keeping the sink rate steady. If you get it right the ground effect will put you on ground gently.

Technique only worked well in calm conditions, no crosswind with medium load and low density altitude, even seen it done in a 744.

...and if you ever move onto flying helicopters you will find this technique helpful as well ;)

cumulusrider

7th Sep 2014, 15:09

Try flying a modern glider. 15knts too fast and you will be embedded in the upwind hedge. (ground affect and low wings) Concentrates the mind wonderfully if you cant go around!

Chase_BHX

7th Sep 2014, 21:01

Mach Jump

7th Sep 2014, 21:15

It is a modified 151

Modified in what way?

If it has the special wingtips, VGs and special fairings mod that I once flew, You will need to reduce all the approach and landing speeds by about 10kt, compared to the standard aircraft.

MJ:ok:

Genghis the Engineer

7th Sep 2014, 22:05

Ghengis

It is a modified 151.

POH lists approach speed as:
Flaps up 71 kt, 10 degrees 69, 25 degrees 66, 40 degrees 63 but does not seem to mention anything relating to changing speed with weight.

Will make sure I've got the speeds sorted out next lesson.

Thanks.

Multiply the speed by the square root of (actual weight / MTOW).

A sum best done on the ground before flying !

G

Big Pistons Forever

8th Sep 2014, 00:51

For your average 4 seat flying club trainer a very good rule of thumb is to knock 5 knots off the POH gross weight speeds for an approach with a pilot and instructor and less than full fuel.

If we do the actual calculation for your warrior and its 63 kt gross weight POH landing speed and assume a landing weight of 1950 pounds which is the empty weight plus 2, 200 pound pilots and half tanks we get a new landing speed of 58 kts, or 5 kts less :D.

You will find that the 5 kt rule will be very close for all the typical club aircraft. If the lack of precision offends you than I recommend you do the calculation for a minimum possible landing weight ( 1 person and 1/4 tanks), a mid range weight and the POH gross weight. A rough interpolation between these 3 numbers will be more than sufficiently accurate for your average club trainer.

One thing that intrigues me is the approach speeds you list for low flap settings. My Warrior POH only lists the landing speed at full flaps, which is incidentally the POH recommended landing setting. So I have to wonder if those other speeds are a result of the flying club "good idea club" throwing numbers out or whether there is in fact official guidance from Piper on the landing speeds to use at lesser flap settings ?

Chuck Ellsworth

8th Sep 2014, 01:55

When I teach landings I break it down into four parts.

(1) The approach path.

(2) The " flare " from the approach attitude to parallel with the landing surface.

(3) The hold off.

(4) The touch down.

The approach speed can be almost any speed you want from cruise speed for a light single down to just above stall speed.

However a constant approach speed at the recommended speed for the airplane and all up weight usually is easier to fly.

At no time during the approach, flare, hold off or touch down do I teach them to look at the far end of the runway.

9 lives

8th Sep 2014, 05:47

I'm reading a lot here about approach speeds. To finally solve this for a pilot depending upon an indicated airspeed to establish a good approach, I'll use a sticky note paper. He can write it on that paper if he likes, but ultimately, that sticky note will be used to cover the ASI anyway.

You're not flying a 777 with an air data computer for your SEP circuits! There are many small errors in the indicated airspeed of light aircraft, so by the time they accumulate, they could be adding up to 5 knots effect, plus or minus. Calibrated airspeed, instrument error, a pilot tube out of position, a static port with a nearby defect - could all sum up to a large error. SO, if you'd like to glance at the ASI on the way down, okay. If you're going to fixate on it, you're doing it wrong.

200 feet back of the threshold, and 30 feet up, I don't really care what your airspeed is, as long as you are able to control the aircraft's speed so as to achieve a suitable flare entry speed as you cross the threshold and an appropriate height. If you want to neatly slip off the 5 knots you carried for the wife and kids, or the gusty day, at the last moments, go ahead. Just enter the flare at a suitable speed (without having ballooned to do it).

Though not so good with the wife and kids actually aboard, when I'm flying something new, or changed, I'll often do a few stalls before I land. Not the stall where the nose drops, and the ground rushes up as I "recover", but just to the point where I get whatever warning is provided, and I can FEEL CLmax. I pull back a bit more, and the nose does not come up more - I'm there. THAT is what I'll be doing as I complete my flare, with the expectation that the landing gear is inches off the surface. The indicated airspeed will not be a factor in this at all, as I will not be watching it anyway.

"Modified". Yes, some wings have modifications, which may affect stall "speeds". Pilots must make themselves familiar with these affects on the aircraft they fly. They can be considerable, and they will affect how the aircraft should be flow at flare entry. I offer the following example:

A C 182 amphibian I fly has 300 HP, a STOL kit, wing extensions, VG's on the H stab, and flies at a gross weight of 3350 pounds (rather than 2950 for the standard 182). It really is not a "182" any more. There are a number of flight manual supplements applicable to this aircraft, some with speeds, but none which resolve the sum of the speed changes - so, I'm a test pilot. I have tested. I have found power off stall speeds as slow as 54 KIAS, power on stall speeds as slow as 34 KIAS, and certainly established that a suitable gross weight glide speed is 80 KIAS.

So, working with those numbers, what's your "approach" speed? Well, let me tell you, if I'm right seat, your approach speed is 80 KIAS, by 75, I'll be telling you to lower the nose. But, I know that when the nose is raised, that plane slows so quickly, that one can approach at 80, cross the fence at 75, gently touch 200 feet down the runway, and coast neatly to a stop in about 1000 feet of runway - that's just the way that plane flies.

Consider more how the plane wants to be flown, and less what the ASI is indicating. Feel for the stall. If you feel that you have not yet perfected your sense of stall awareness, and the wife and kids aboard are preventing your practicing to feel these sensations around the stall, you need to fly some more solo or dual with an instructor in that plane. These pitch force sensation, which give you a tactile advance notice of the aircraft's progress toward the stall are about the same for any GA aircraft, and they will guide you well through a good flare - if you feel for them, and take the time to follow them through - before you touch the ground!

mad_jock

8th Sep 2014, 06:47

And all this work to find out what the approach speed should be and adjust it for weight.

There is a very easy way of SEEING if your at the right speed.

Just look out the window and set the attitude. Your wanting to fly the approach at AoAcrit minus a safety margin that margin won't change so if you set the attitude you will always be at the right speed. Then adjust the power to maintain the decent profile that you want.

To be honest the picture doesn't change whatever type you fly. On a new type ask the instructor to demo a approach and check that its the same then carry on and do the same as you have always done.

Sometimes I think this industry fixation on airspeeds causes more problems that it solves in teaching.

It is more than possible to fly an aircraft with no flight instruments what's so ever. I spent 900 hours in the RHS of a tommy with no instruments. And could spot the approach speed being wrong looking at the wing tip.

Learn your attitudes for each stage of flight and set them, hold them and trim for them. Then let the plane do the flying.

Genghis the Engineer

8th Sep 2014, 07:09

I think that Step Turn and Mad Jock have given us all a much needed reminder. Airspeed is important, but much more important is angle of attack. AoA isn't instrumented, but any pilot in visual conditions (which means anybody still studying for their PPL) can and should look out of the window.

Yes, absolutely, use instruction (or the ASI) to get it right initially, then use visual attitude. That doesn't really change with weight, and once you have that pinned, nothing more than the very occasional glance at the ASI (unless somebody's stuck a post-it note over it, in which case don't bother) should be needed.

Incidentally, I'm just going to quibble with Chuck's terminology a moment...

(2) The " flare " from the approach attitude to parallel with the landing surface.

(3) The hold off.

Most texts would call your (2) the roundout, and your (3) the flare.

G

mad_jock

8th Sep 2014, 07:31

Before someone comes on a states what I have said doesn't always work.

It does in a SEP VFR aircraft that's not damaged or carrying ICE.

If you have taken a bird strike on the leading edge, at altitude set the aircraft up in the approach config and gradually reduce the speed back to normal, Carry out a couple of turns. If everything feels ok land as normal.

If you start feeling anything note the attitude/speed and reduce slightly and that's your new approach attitude/speed.

Icing is a bit different as you don't want to hang around picking more of the stuff up. Your stall protection won't work either. So you just have to be conservative. and slow and any hint of buffeting go faster by 5-10knts.

Chuck Ellsworth

8th Sep 2014, 15:44

Most texts would call your (2) the roundout, and your (3) the flare.

The wording can be different in different countries, in Canada it is referred to as the flare or round out.

Also in Canada we turn final...not finals.

What one aims for is changing the approach path from a descent attitude to the level attitude about fifteen feet above the surface and allowing the speed and lift to decay so as to touch down at or just above the stall.

The above can be done at any airspeed, bearing in mind at a high speed the hold off portion will be longer due to the higher speed and use up more of the landing surface before touch down.

Genghis the Engineer

8th Sep 2014, 15:58

I think that pretty much anywhere you are supposed to turn "final", it's just that lots of people say it wrong.

G

Piper.Classique

8th Sep 2014, 19:53

And remove boxing gloves and clogs before flight. Seriously, try to feel the weight of the aircraft in your hands as you try to keep it off the ground.

So, aim at the ground. Then just miss it, and keep on trying not to touch it. This will give you a mainwheel first landing with a nosedragger, three point with conventional gear. For a wheeler on conventional gear wait until the mainwheels are rolling then hold the tail up. It may take more than one attempt to get this right, but in principal you are putting the aircraft back where it was before you went flying. Now stop. Remove it from the runway at a reasonable pace. This would be a brisk trot for the young and fit, bike speed for the old and decrepit.

Preferably round out on the threshold. Unless the runway is long, and the only exit half way along. My apologies to the aircraft behind me at Cherbourg last time I was there. I think I have a genetic predisposition to landing as short as possible...... But anyway choose your touchdown point, rather than letting it choose you. It should be not far beyond the roundout point, if it is miles past either you had a tailwind component or you were too fast on final approach.

Pezzar

8th Sep 2014, 20:30

Yay, i got it.
Had a lesson Friday night, one saturday and one tonight. All of tonights landings were perfectly acceptable, my instructor was very pleased :-)
Finally got the feel through the stick for flare and hold off :D :ok:

Discorde

8th Sep 2014, 22:05

Well done, Pezzar! It's a great feeling when you suddenly realise: 'I know how to do it!' Let's hope your 1st solo isn't too far away.

Mach Jump

8th Sep 2014, 23:00

....suddenly realise: 'I know how to do it!'

I don't think any of us really know how we do this. It just happens one day.:)

MJ:ok:

Big Pistons Forever

9th Sep 2014, 03:48

200 feet back of the threshold, and 30 feet up, I don't really care what your airspeed is, as long as you are able to control the aircraft's speed so as to achieve a suitable flare entry speed as you cross the threshold and an appropriate height. If you want to neatly slip off the 5 knots you carried for the wife and kids, or the gusty day, at the last moments, go ahead. Just enter the flare at a suitable speed (without having ballooned to do it).

The OP has 18 hrs. What you are asking for is simply unrealistic in a student just starting out. "Feel" matters and having that feel for what the aircraft is doing rather than just repeating rote actions separates pilots from aircraft drivers. However that feel is a product of experience, something new PPL students by definition do not have.

Personally I have the best results by starting with a standard circuit. From 500 feet AGL to touchdown the goal is to have everything the same. This reduces the number of variables the student has to deal. When the landings are consistent then we can start deviating from the standard.

I would also add that it is important to specify what a "good" landing is for a new student. Good landings have nothing to do with the softness of the landing, as you can get lucky and get a squeeker out of a truly terrible approach.

What I want to see is a consistent correct pitch attitude on final with deviations from the desired approach flight path recognized and corrected and a touchdown in the proper nose up attitude, aligned with the runway centerline and reasonable close to the desired touchdown point. If the landing meets the above criteria but the touchdown was with a bit of a thud, it is still a good landing.

9 lives

9th Sep 2014, 07:17

The OP has 18 hrs. What you are asking for is simply unrealistic in a student just starting out. "Feel" matters and having that feel for what the aircraft is doing rather than just repeating rote actions separates pilots from aircraft drivers. .......

I would also add that it is important to specify what a "good" landing is for a new student. Good landings have nothing to do with the softness of the landing, as you can get lucky and get a squeeker out of a truly terrible approach.

What I want to see is a consistent correct pitch attitude on final with deviations from the desired approach flight path recognized and corrected and a touchdown in the proper nose up attitude, aligned with the runway centerline and reasonable close to the desired touchdown point. If the landing meets the above criteria but the touchdown was with a bit of a thud, it is still a good landing.

Yes BPF, I agree with you. It is the more experienced pilots reading posts of this type, who must remind themselves that their flying discipline must exceed that of the low time student, whose comment we are actually responding to here.

Discorde

27th Sep 2014, 17:11

How's it going, Pezzar?

Chase_BHX

9th Oct 2014, 22:53

Next lesson (after several weeks) in pa28 one go around from stable approach, three landings with instructor and then three solo.

Not sure that did much different to last time except followed advice to reduce the throttle slightly earlier so slower at the numbers and possibly more relaxed as a year older (and wiser?)

New problem in that after power checks for solo shower of rain arrived so taxied back to club for 10 mins while it passed. Then on take off run discovered I had the not fully secured the door when I got back in. Fortunately enough runway to reject takeoff and FISO backtracked me as no one else I the circuit. I had also asked for airfield information on the frequency of another close by airport as I had set but not changed to the local frequency when I got back in. (Don't think it was heard as I got no reply) Felt a bit like early circuits again having to cope with high level of workload - other than in being on the ground instead of in the air.

mad_jock

10th Oct 2014, 20:58

don't worry about the door being not shut its not a big one. Its certainly not worth going off the end of the runway because of.

Just ignore it and get up to cruise height and open the top catch and then open the door catch and give it a pull and it will more than likely shut and then shut the top catch. If its still open a bit don't worry about it the slip stream will keep it shut.

Some instructors myself included when its hot open them anyway on purpose in flight.

Pezzar

1st Nov 2014, 12:07

Discorde
How's it going pezzar?Great thanks, i've also passed air law and RT theory :ok:

gemma10

2nd Nov 2014, 14:56

FWIW when I started flying, an aerobatics pilot I know suggested I go and sit at the front, upstairs on a double decker bus in London for a couple of hours [cos thats where I live] and get used to that height. Thats the flare height. Worked for me 90 per cent of the time!

9 lives

3rd Nov 2014, 00:28

So that's why I've seen people in the front row upstairs, pulling on that bar across in front of them! ;)

Think of flaring like this:

You're gliding down toward the runway, everything is stable, and perfect. You're wisely carrying a little extra energy as a few knots for the wife and kids ('cause you're gliding, and cannot burp in a bit of power when you realize you're too low/slow). But, you're going down. You don't want to contact the runway at the rate of descent you have in the glide.

So, you're going to have to arrest that rate of descent to contact gently, rather than a thump. Doing this is to add lift to overcome the gravity which is pulling you to earth. You can't add lift by adding power, 'cause for this discussion, you got none. So all you have is that bit of reserve speed where your energy is stored. You've got only one chance to spend that energy, 'cause when you spend it, it's gone. So don't let it dribble away (losing speed on final) or spend it too early, by flaring early. Your flare, is when you begin to spend. Spend it wisely. If you have too little, spend it all steadily. If you have too much, spend some, then hold, and spend the rest a little (seconds) later. Your flare is just you momentarily arresting a rate of descent, to touch down neatly, seconds later.....