Europa Loss of Comm - Descent?

[ILSpam]

Hi,

I have a question regarding the loss of communication procedures and yes, I know they have been discussed before but I can't find a particular answer to my question!

In the UK we are told that after 7 minutes we should descend according CDA / Planned descent profile but in Europe it reads to me that we should maintain level until the IAF unless there are altitude restrictions along the way.


So, example, if I am flying into an airport at FL380 I should maintain FL380 (presuming no at / below altitudes on arrival) until the IAF and then in the hold I should descend all the way from Fl380 to X altitude.

Whilst this seems to be clear I wonder how the ATC units would co-ordinate this and how happy they would be for you to sit at FL380 and then descend through ALL the levels down to the IAF altitude rather than descending as they might expect in accordance with the profile.

Any thoughts please?

[Dufo]

They are happy because they expect you not to take all the airspace from TOD to IAF between FL380 and ground. Descending in holding doesn't take much time and space. Lost comm per se is not a major technical issue and there's no rush executing it.

[JeroenC]

As far as I'm aware, even with at/below altitudes you maintain flight plan levels, unless explicitly cleared for an arrival? Correct me if wrong?

[BizJetJock]

FL380 - FL000 at 2000fpm takes 19 mins. Quite a long time I would have said!

[de facto]

Shorter than 30 mins no?

[ILSpam]

Thanks for the replies so far.

Why has this been moved to Ground & other ops forum though??


Regarding maintaining cruise level all the way to IAF I am not sure. It could be taken both ways.

1) You could argue you maintain the FPlaned level (so this would include changes to higher / lower cruise levels as many flight plans have at specified points) and then descend over the IAF but then after the time it takes to descend, you probably will not be in a position to start at approach at EAT / ETA.

2) Your flight plan also specifies a STAR and some do not have at / below altitudes.
HOWEVER for the STARs that DO have an AT / BELOW altitude then surely we should descend to these levels because this is a constraint dictated by the routing we have on our flight plan?


proceed according to the current flight plan route to the appropriate designated NAVAID or fix serving the destination aerodrome and, when required to ensure compliance with

e), hold over this aid or fix until commencement of descent;
commence descent from the NAVAID or fix specified in

d) at, or as close as possible to, the EAT last received and acknowledged; or, if no EAT has been received and acknowledged, at, or as close as possible to, the ETA resulting from the current FPL;
complete a normal IAP as specified for the designated NAVAID or fix; and
land, if possible, within 30 MIN after the ETA specified in

e) or the last acknowledged EAT, whichever is later.


Thanks!

[ILSpam]

Or a new thought,
You're flying along as suggested at Fl380 all the way to the IAF hold.. which has a max holding level of FL100.

Again, shouldn't we have descended?:(

[172_driver]

And then look at all national variations in the Jeppesen Route Manual (or equivalent). Then try and integrate those procedures with reality… :ugh:

As much as I enjoy the basics of aviation - I believe these procedures were written in 1913 before the complexities of today's environment.

[B737900er]

Or make life easier and just fly the aircraft, squawking 7600, making blind transmissions and descend according to your OFP, making sure you land within ETA+30.

Im sure ATC will keep other aircraft out your way.