Middle East is bad... So where to?

[lfbb]

So many posts complaining about flying for ME carries, I'm just wondering where to go then? Besides going home, wherever that is, I can't find airlines offering better packages and growth perspectives around the globe. Unfortunately or not ME seams like the "center of now" for aviation, a oasis away from turbulent economic recessions.
So my question is, where would you go and why are you staying for now? Just out of curiosity....
Regards!

[ironbutt57]

If you find "Air Utopia" let me know..I'm in:ok:

[nolimitholdem]

@ifbb,

You DO realize there are other jobs outside aviation, right?

Sounds like trolling for self-justification to either join or stay. Which is it?

Do whatever makes you happy, or do what most in the ME do: just pretend you're happy. Fake it till you make it. I hear if you keep telling yourself something enough times, it makes it true. :}

[dubaigong]

There are plenty of jobs in other countries but maybe not offering the same salary but once again life is not only about money...
India is recruiting a lot...
China is even now offering upgrade from B737 or A320 to long haul and base out of China and the salary is not bad at all.
Korea is also recruiting for years...
Of course some will say that it is worse than here but others found it better , left and like it.
So there is always a solution but you will never find the perfect airline.

[BigGeordie]

If I live the same lifestyle I would at home (UK-which isn't cheap) - as in same size house, car, same nights out- I have more left at the end of the month than I would there. Or I can do the Dubai thing, have a more luxurious life, and have the same left. It is all a matter of choice. I still think the UAE is the best thing going at the moment but that doesn't make it perfect or as good as it was 10 years ago.

[MrMachfivepointfive]

I've never met so many International Airline Captains living in one bedroom apartments or poorly built townhouses with 20sqm "gardens" as i have living in Dubai.

WHAT???? Unless they have to support 3 ex-wives and 12 children this is impossible. Or just possible if they are Scottish. Seriously. I am paying off the mortgage for a 3 BR 350 sqm plus 800sqm garden Saheel 1 with my allowance easily.

[lfbb]

Thanks for all the posts so far, but until now no one presented a realistic solution. As I said if you get yourself in a company accommodation, I do agree it's crappy, and don't get a boat, luxurious car, etc.... It's is possible to save a lot of money, but that's my 2 cents.... I keep on looking for better options but when it comes to the whole package can't find anything that suites me better.... Please point out a specific job opportunity that offers a better package. I'm not trolling, I'm actually the one who's unable to accept that there is nothing better out there at the moment.

[ExpatBrat]

To answer your original question...

I wouldn't go anywhere right now. Not interested in the Far East and I wouldn't live in India if you paid me $50,000 a week. What I might do in a few years is see what kind of contract jobs are back in Canada (or the States). Could be a good way to finish up a career if the money and the rest is alright. Otherwise I'll stay put.

Second part of your question...

Staying here because I like it. The money's good, the job's good, the life is good, never paid 7 bucks for a cup of coffee lol, and just generally it's not nearly as bad as pilots on these forums make it seem.

But all that's personal opinion. What works for me might not work for others and that's fair enough.

[lfbb]

I do share your point of view.... That's why I can not conceive leaving ME right now. I was just wondering if I'm missing something, once people complain so much they must know somewhere were the grass is waaaayyyy greener!

[BLOGGSON]

Mr Machfivepointfive.

What the hell has being Scottish got to do with it you ignorant tw@t?

[JammedStab]

To answer your original question...

I wouldn't go anywhere right now. Not interested in the Far East and I wouldn't live in India if you paid me $50,000 a week. What I might do in a few years is see what kind of contract jobs are back in Canada (or the States). Could be a good way to finish up a career if the money and the rest is alright. Otherwise I'll stay put.


Can get 4 months or more off per year in the far east at some places:ok:

Makes a 92 hour month easier when you get regular extended breaks in between.

[harry the cod]

BLOGGSON

Chill, either you're a Scot with a wee sensitive side or unable to understand the association of Scots and their thriftiness. Many years ago a mate of mine (from Glasgow) and I picked up a couple of babes in a bar in London. We took a taxi back to his hotel about 6 miles away. His pick up was so attractive he could hardly keep his eyes off the taxi meter!

LAKER

Rubbish. Those staying in 1 bed apartments are there through they're own choice. They either have no family or probably have family back home and use the apt purely as a base when in Dubai. They'll take the live out allowance and save the difference. Even single F/O's get 2 bed apt minimum, 3 bed if married. F/O's with family and all Captains, regardless of marital status, get minimum 3 bed villas. I know it's a rumour network but at least get some basic facts right, ok?

Harry

[Al Murdoch]

These threads are just getting embarrassing now...

[ManaAdaSystem]

It's "Falling down" EK pilot style.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Can you as a new-joiner, under current market conditions, pay a mortgage with your allowance (for a decent place, doesn't have to be a huge villa though)?

I am asking because I just don't get it. I was told a F/O at EK makes about 8000 US$ plus company housing and some school fees. Any retirement benefits??
How can that be attractive for a European guy with( or even without) family??? Serious question, no offense.

[glofish]

It depends on your passport .... like if you can apply for Norvegian, it's a pretty good option. Different bases and different packages.

You nailed it with the statement that the ME is the region where aviation is growing and just because it's almost the only part, they can do what they want. They take full advantage, it's supply and demand at its best and civilised behaviour at its worst.

If you want to be part of it, you have to suck up what's been described around here. If you don't, try Norvegian.

[ManaAdaSystem]

First you need to learn how to spell Norwegian.
Second, they they don't pay very well, and you can forget about anything but your salary. No housing, education allowance, etc, etc.

[Laker]

Harry,

I was being slightly dramatic. But I'm sure you've noticed a large portion of the pilot group live out and supplement the relatively modest basic salary with extra income from the housing allowance. After renting a cheap 1-2 bedroom flat a few years ago a pilot could easily add 2kUSD per month to their savings account.

With the 18+ month run up in housing prices that is no longer a viable option. So as Sam Ting Wong stated you are left with about $8,000 USD and living in company housing. For some people that is a great gig. For others it is sorely lacking considering the numerous challenges/expenses of living in Dubai and flying 89-92 hours per month. Some look at a town home in Meydan as a dream home, others would be depressed after six months. It's all perspective I guess. But the new norm is smaller villas out in the desert.

As for buying a place with the housing allowance. That worked out great for some. It would take some serious stones for a new joiner to commit 4+ million AED for a shoddily built villa in the city of hype following a 2 year run up in prices. But maybe I'm overly cautious.

Those who don't want to live in company accommodation and sign in every guest they have are provided a housing allowance of roughly 170k for FO's and 190k for CA's. Up until quite recently that was more than enough.

Go to Dubizzle and check out decent sized one bedroom apartments in the downtown area, Marina, or Palm. The nicer ones are 150-180k. When you add the 5% commission, 5% housing tax, and 5% damage deposit you are likely going to be over your allowance. Then when you consider DEWA bills you can be well over your allowance. Of course you can find cheaper ones.

What I was trying to point out is that someone who joins TODAY. Not 10 years ago, or even 3 years ago, but TODAY cannot afford to live the lifestyle that an Emirates salary historically provided. Unless they commit significant outside resources. The package of a 380/777CA at EK relative to what it will buy you in Dubai if you joined at the present time is not that stellar. I'm guessing Harry that you bought a nice big villa in Arabian Ranches years ago or else you live in one of the remaining good Villas that the company hasn't dumped yet. Your experience is going to be vastly different from someone joining today. Ok now you can tell me how i got it all wrong :ok:

[lfbb]

Don't wanna be annoying but we are back to pointing out the bad things about flying here, and no one has posted a better job so far.... Asia sure pays more, but don't forget the they offer no allowances. So at the end you get the same money and will have to deal with living in Asia which I think may be harder to adapt to, correct if I'm wrong.

[Alconguin Crusader]

Ifbb it sounds like you are trying to justify your decision to join or are typing from the 3rd floor of EGHQ.
If you do want to come to the sand EK should probably your last choice since we are the lowest paid Widebody pilots of the Big 3 and have the longest time to upgrade.
There are plenty of airlines that pay more but you might not be able to join them. China is paying in some airlines $22,000 a month. I make almost half that in salary. We all know there is a provident fund and allowances here which makes up some of the difference but EK is still sorely lacking and behind most Widebody jobs. Then when you figure in our hourly wage we drop out of the picture.

[harry the cod]

LAKER

Not for one minute am I saying property is cheap in Dubai. it isn't. Renting and buying will require substantial financial commitment but that could also be said of any major city now. Singapore, London, Paris, New York, Hong Kong, Sydney...........

The point is, those like myself who've been here a few years had 3 choices. Stay in Company accommodation, rent or buy. They each have their pro's and con's so we make our choice and accept it. The trough in the property market was there for everyone up to 2 years ago. Some capitalised on that, others didn't. I did buy and it required a substantial deposit. That's my risk along with a friggin big mortgage. Those that rent are subject to the whim of the landlord and the sentiment of the rental market. That too is a risk but doesn't require a deposit and commitment on a buying scale. The final option is the Company. The upside is it's completely free and there's no tie whatsoever. The downside is you live where they tell you to live. Meydan had been talked about for over 3 years. Some people buried their heads in the hope it wouldn't materialise.

Those that are joining today will not be in a position to buy 'a nice big villa in Arabian Ranches'. Neither was I when I joined 12 years ago as a junior F/O with a young family. I can't see many DEP's in their early 30's joining BA, Lufthansa, Delta or wherever expecting to afford similar accommodation to senior Captains in their late 40's, early 50's, can you? I bought my very first house 25 years ago with a mortgage for 3x salary. 15 years ago you needed 6x. Now it's almost 8 with this figure being even higher in London.

There are times when we have to stop blaming the Company for situations that are either not in their direct control or are Worldwide issues. If the new guys don't like what's on offer when they visit, don't join. It really is that simple.

Harry

AC

Just seen your post. Half? Maybe, but with you accommodation for free. I clear $19,000 per month. Line Captain, no training, housing allowance. Unlikely China is making any Provident contributions in that figure too. As for the pollution and traffic..... if you thought Dubai was bad! I know you're a doomsday practitioner on these threads so it's always good sitting on the see saw with you at playtime!

[Alconguin Crusader]

Yeah Harry so you are still $3,000 below the China airlines and working 15% more hours at Emirates. Some of the airlines in China allow you to be based in the country of your choice.
I said my salary is almost half but then included the allowances. If you didn't hang around playgrounds looking for your next conquest you would realize what was going on.

[Callsign Kilo]

Everywhere is the same. You work more for less, regardless. The pursuit of fortune and a quickish command only leads to disappointment. Just look at Emirates. Air Asia offering DE CUs? Do you believe that? Or $250,000 'packages' in a Chinese smoggfest endorsed by some dubious agency who are contracted by an even more dubious airline.

Two rules, stay at home where you are happiest and don't give up a command if you have earned one. Money and opportunity are here today's gone tomorrow's in an industry that can barely stay still for 24 hours.

Alternatively you could become a 'Drone Pilot'. There's an advert for one at the bottom of this page!

[glofish]

Well, if it boils down to money, EK doesn't look spectacular but by no means really bad. You will stay alive and well but no way you will raise and feed a family and put aside enough for a decent retirement.

Most complaints however go with the rest of the T&Cs (apart from some twats who play grammar police). So if the thread starter chases dollars and has a LC job, fine. But be aware of the downside of this place.

[harry the cod]

AC

But the most ironic and laughable aspect of your posts is that YOU'RE STILL HERE!

I always left the playground when I got bored or found a better one. I didn't stay at the same one for years and years complaining. Go to China and give us all a break for **** sake!

Harry

[montencee]

harrycod wrote:
Those that are joining today will not be in a position to buy 'a nice big villa in Arabian Ranches'. Neither was I when I joined 12 years ago as a junior F/O with a young family.

Those that are joining today are quite likely to still be F/Os in 12 years from now rather than having 9 years of command salary behind them like you have. Although apparently recruitment are still advertising "fast" commands. I would blame the company for that.

[harry the cod]

Perhaps even more of a reason for them NOT to join. All prospective new joiners should be asking how 'fast' is being defined by EK. Being specific and entirely honest is not a forte of this outfit!

Harry

[emratty]

Buying a property in Dubai in the current market is a huge gamble. Despite the agents spinning a good yarn the fact is prices have stalled and are decreasing at an ever increasing rate.
There was even an article in a local paper on the looming property correction which is very unusual as articles like that are usually frowned upon by the authorities.
It won't crash like 2008 but 20 to 30 percent is on the cards. Timing is everything in Dubai property so for those thinking of jumping in at the present time be very careful.

[Sam Ting Wong]

What is the salary for a First Officer at EK?

[FlyingTinCans]

Ah, another thread where ppruners strive to find air utopia :ugh:

It doesn't exist guys, every job in the world has pros & cons.

The OP was asking about the ME, NOT EK....

I wouldn't leave the UAE (but I wouldn't work anywhere else in the ME either) because away from pprune in the real world there isn't much better overall deals out there right now.

Go home to Europe? I would earn less, wouldn't get my home base so would still be away from home anyway, career would take a step back, and I would have less disposable income to what I have here.

Go to China? Until I meet someone thats actually been there and enjoyed it not on your nelly, I only ever fly or speak to pilots who have left china to come to the ME, and all are glad they escaped, with most saying "the ME is civilised compared to china" How bad is china then?....

Take the money, enjoy the lifestyle, enjoy the quick career progression (EK aint the only carrier in the UAE!), and sit back & watch the US/Europe continue to struggle, content in the knowledge that when/if they ever do recover you will return with a nice sun tan, some money in your back pocket & some interesting dinner party stories.
Or spend your entire time here, b*tching, being a recluse, flying home at every opportunity and then wonder why you feel disconnected and hate it so much...

[ekwhistleblower]

Sam Ting Wong What is the salary for a First Officer at EK?


Good grief!

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01635/snoopy_1635791c.jpg

[harry the cod]

FlyingTinCans

If that post was on Facebook, I'd have given you a 'LIKE' for that. Nicely put sir and wholeheartedly agree.

Harry

[whossorrynow]

Go home to Europe? I would earn less, wouldn't get my home base so would still be away from home anyway, career would take a step back, and I would have less disposable income to what I have here.

The trick is probably to not leave Europe in the first place. There was a time when after not too many years in the Middle East you could go home with enough cash to buy property and have a mortgage free hobby-job. That's gone now and if you go home early you won't catch up on lost seniority and commensurate income.

Even the positive posts on this board have a hint of faint praise, frustration, compromise and even slight despair.

[FlyingTinCans]

The trick is probably to not leave Europe in the first place.

I could have stayed in Europe, and spent another 5 years not moving on the seniority list. In fact if I had of stayed id have moved backwards on it. All while struggling to pay for my families monthly shopping bill, watching airline stagnation completely ruin my career, instead of eating out twice a week in 5 star resorts, drinking beer on the beach, and driving around in my ridiculously uneconomical american muscle car. If an airline could offer me all that back home then of course I wouldn't have ever left, but it doesn't exist! You are confusing 'frustration, compromise, despair' with 'reality'

you won't catch up on lost seniority and commensurate income.

Thats a huge sweeping statement. I personally left Europe as a turboprop FO, I could return now as a jet DEC if I wanted. That would mean I in fact leapfrog most of my 'senior' ex-colleagues and I have earned & more importantly saved far more than them too.

[Luke SkyToddler]

There's more to Asia than mainland China, just saying ... there's also jobs to be found in Japan, Vietnam, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Korea, Malaysia, Indo, Singapore, Thailand ...

People hear horror stories about "China" and mentally put them all into that same basket, but actually they are all very different countries, different cultures, different jobs.

No job is perfect but there are plenty of people out east who are glad they left the sandpit.

[Iver]

There may be another option for Europeans in the next year or two:


Ryanair considering the A350, B787 for transatlantic flights - ch-aviation.com (http://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/30850-ryanair-considering-the-a350-b787-for-transatlantic-flights)

[whossorrynow]

I personally left Europe as a turboprop FO, I could return now as a jet DEC if I wanted. That would mean I in fact leapfrog most of my 'senior' ex-colleagues...

Sure, you could return as a jet DEC to Ryanair, Norwegian, Jet2 or Wizz if you wanted. Staying in Europe you would have been there anyway.


You are confusing 'frustration, compromise, despair' with 'reality'

I forgot to mention denial.

[Alconguin Crusader]

There are plenty of good jobs in Europe it is just emirates pilots didn't get hired by any of them. After all do you see any LH, AF, or BA pilots in the sand.
Now we have a turboprop pilot comparing his old job to an international Widebody airline. That doesn't do us any favors.
Harry what airline did you work at before? Your silence is deafening. You are just like that wimp on another thread who chastises Americans but refuses to identify where he comes from. It is easy to trash someone when you don't know how to respond or what you are dealing with.
There are some FOs that make more than Emirates pilots and we have pilots on this forum saying Emirates is a great airline. Look around and see what the good airlines are paying.

[falconeasydriver]

Alconguin Crusader, After all do you see any LH, AF, or BA pilots in the sand.
Not wishing to get into an argument, nor to steal your thunder, but yes there are MORE than a few EX employees from these 3 fine airlines that presently work in the sand.
Now back to your bickering…..

[MrMachfivepointfive]

After all do you see any LH, AF, or BA pilots in the sand.
Actually yes. Not in masses - but yes - all of the above.

[whossorrynow]

There's a handfull of BA people here. I talked with one about it, he mentioned the weather.

There were a couple from LH, one had been sacked and ended up here via somewhere else. He never made the left seat and after a few years he was sacked from here too. The other resigned when he was passed over twice for upgrade, it turned out the same had happened to him at LH.

Don't know of any from AF.

[Alconguin Crusader]

Yes there are some of the above mentioned pilots in the sand but I wouldn't say "more than a few". There is one LH pilot but he has Yellow Fever no AF that I can find and yes the Brits are always easy to get to leave their tiny little island but most of the BA pilots are the ones that took their large pensions and joined us in the sand, TCAS being the most illustrious example.

[fatbus]

Let's not forget all the USAir pilots that came as FO's without a pension, are they all heading back to the US?

Ps flown with more than 1 from LH and AF.

[montencee]

Ps flown with more than 1 from LH and AF.

Proper LH/AF mainline? Or second/third tier Express department with no particular benefits?

[harry the cod]

AC

My previous Company is irrelevant. I work for EK now and intend to for another 10 years, health permitting. I left because the overall lifestyle and package was, and still is better then my previous Airline. Anything wrong in that?

Your previous employer was obviously better than EK hence your constant anger and frustration vented on these forums. Not once, ever, have I read anything positive on your posts about EK.

Your obvious monumental f**k up at leaving your previous employer has haunted you for years. You criticise those trying to improve their lot while in reality it is you who's become a joke on these forums with your bitter diatribes. Meanwhile, friends and colleagues of yours enjoy the lifestyle you yearn back in the good old US and it eats away at you. You moan at home, in the Company transport and on the flight deck. I know exactly who you are and can't believe you still live here.

If you weren't such a jerk on these threads I might actually feel sorry for you.

Sent from my tiny Island

Harry

[dubaigong]

FlyingTinCans,

I would like to hear what other pilots , in your ME airlines , have to say about security , life style , rostering , fatigue etc...
We all understood it suits you and that's fine but it is far to be the case for everybody.

We can not expect the feelings coming from a quite junior turbo-prop F/O or a very senior jet captain to be the same about ME carrier as what they have to gain is totally different.
I think that this plays a big part in the very wide range of comments , positive and negative , we are getting on this website.
A pilot coming from the right seat paid 25000 US/per year has a lot to gain here and most probably will be happier.

About the situation in Europe , it really depends again where and with who you talk ( junior F/O joining or an almost retired captain )
And by the way , ask the new second officers in your company what they had to do and pay to join and what will be their salary and for how long they will be bonded ( if they dare to tell you the truth ) and you will see that we are at least as good that the one in Europe...

[umitatl]

Flyingtincans ,

Would you please mention which me carrier you working for?the unnamed one? So curious that which airline you may tick all your boxes on ..

Thanks in advance..