QF to Wellcamp(BWW)

[BNEA320]

EXCLUSIVE: Qantas swoops first at Wellcamp | Toowoomba Chronicle (http://www.thechronicle.com.au/news/qantas-swoops-first-at-wellcamp/2372846/)


Hope Wagners didn't give too many concessions to QF.


Would have thought Tiger would have been better suited, but maybe QF will us smaller jets like 717's ?

[Goat Whisperer]

A lot of potential there for FIFO.

[Bootstrap1]

Qantas will use new Queensland airport (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-planning/travel-news/qantas-will-use-new-queensland-airport-20140903-10btd8.html)

This report says Q400s will be used.

[BNEA320]

so 11 return flights a week from 17NOV. Guess that means 2 a day Mon-Fri (am & pm) one on weekend probably Sun pm.


Wonder where aircraft will be based ?


If at SYD & not BWW, then will have to be a very early departure from SYD (before 0600 ?)


Think passengers would have much preferred a jet like a 717 or E190 or even a BAe146.




Just found this schedule


to SYD


1 *QF2015 X67 WTB SYD 1 0520 0755 0 18NOV14 19DEC14 DH4 2:35


2 *QF2017 6 WTB SYD 1 0730 1005 0 22NOV14 28MAR15 DH4 2:35


3 *QF2017 X67 WTB SYD 1 0935 1210 0 17NOV14 24DEC14 DH4 2:35


& back



1 *QF2016 1 SYD 1 WTB 0755 0835 0 17NOV14 17NOV14 DH4 0:40


2 *QF2016 X67 SYD 1 WTB 0810 0850 0 18NOV14 24DEC14 DH4 0:40


3 *QF2018 X6 SYD 1 WTB 1755 1835 0 17NOV14 19DEC14 DH4 0:40


Wow only 40 mins SYD/WTB !!!!


Obviously they have not taken into account daylight saving time in SYD.

[0tto]

Is there a demand to warrant a 125 seater jet on the route?

[Oktas8]

Jet like speed BNE.

(Slow the other way due traffic delays @ SYD. 2 hours is the new norm, come summer.)









:E

[TBM-Legend]

Why bag this? Good for Toowoomba. Better on a Q400 than a Skytrans Dash 8...

[BNEA320]

probably not for a 125 seater, especially at Qantas prices.


The 717-200's operated for QF by Cobham have 115 seats we think. Not sure of exact seating on 717's that operate to CBR now.


Cobham also have 146-100 with 71 seats we believe.


Alliance & Network have F100's.


Alliance also has F70's.


Think quite a few of these aircraft are doing stuff all at present.


Obviously Cobham & Alliance costs are dramatically lower than QF.

[Going Nowhere]

Not when you factor in having to base aircraft and crew to do this. Cobham and Alliance won't wear these costs for free you know!

Remember too that QLink just stopped SYD-GLT so that aircraft will now do BWW. When SYD-GLT started, there were plenty out there saying that it must be a 717 as the market will dictate it. Guess what, the market still wanted to choose from the up to 9 flights a day via BNE.

This is by far the lowest cost way to try the market. Should the Q400 fill up, then maybe they'll look at it.

[RENURPP]

The 717-200's operated for QF by Cobham have 115 seats we think. Not sure of exact seating on 717's that operate to CBR now.

We think??

125 seats or 110 with Business class config.

[Capt Claret]

The good oil says....

http://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/546746-first-embraer-e190-cobham-aviation.html

[BNEA320]

QF is basing crew at BWW. What's the difference which airline it is?


Crew will move to base.

[skkm]

I wouldn't think they are basing crew there. They'll be SYD crews overnighting as with every other outstation, surely.

[Fuel-Off]

BNEA320...ahh no.

Nothing has been announced through official channels re. BWW base. One look at the schedule would show that there would most likely be an overnighting aircraft in Wellcamp (all bets are on SYD crew doing these flights). They can't even maintain an ADL (on again - off again) base let alone somewhere west of Toowoomba.

I would suggest that you holster that mouth of yours before you start shooting from it. := This is how foolish rumors start.

Not every port has an overnighting crew. All the inland QLD ports don't have overnights - just really early originating flights from Brisbane. :mad:

MOV was looked at for overnights at one stage, but the hoteliers wouldn't give QF a contract concession when they can charge the mining companies four times the price.

RMA was looked at then shelved because of no de-icing gear for those chilly mornings.

Fuel-Off :ok:

[Blowie]

Will the old Aerodrome continue?

[busdriver007]

Mate if mine just signed a lease with the Council for 30 years and then the council put the price per square metre up 375%. On that basis soon to he redeveloped as houses...much more money in that than aeroplanes.👍

[falconx]

Skytrans -300 to Toowoomba
Jetgo E140 to Roma
Qantas -400 to wellcamp

Interesting to see how this goes, must be a bit happening in the district

[Cactusjack]

Skytrans took no time at all in announcing they were bolting from the Toowoomba/Sydney route;

Wagner wants a million passengers within two years | Toowoomba Chronicle (http://www.thechronicle.com.au/news/qantas-take-wellcamp-november/2374136/) (read the Skytrans statement)

What a ridiculous press release! Who writes such lame folly? Entrepreneurs? Handing it to QF? Yeah sure they did. They are opting out because there is no fighting fund in the empty kitty. Also when they set up Toowoomba/Roma operations it lasted only a few months before 'putting Toowoomba/Roma operations on hold'. They stopped that route months before QF announced Wellcamp operations, so it would seem that their foray into the region was a flop;

Skytrans puts flights on pause | Gladstone Observer (http://m.gladstoneobserver.com.au/news/skytrans-puts-flights-on-pause/2229134/)

I think that Qantas and JetGo operations out of Wellcamp is just the ticket. Better aircraft, better services, and proper airline structures compared to a 'family airline' service. Miners and business travellers need the proper structured airlines to meet their needs, and Qantas and JetGo will provide that :ok:

How long until the old airport is turned into a housing estate? The region certainly has enough gas deposits to keep it going for some time to come.
Perhaps the Wilds can invest in the new Toowoomba range bypass instead?

[roger_ramjet]

I'd hate to do that min-rest BWW overnight with a 0430 pick-up for a 0450 sign on about 20 mins west of Toowoomba!

[0tto]

They say it's on sale today. I just looked on Qantas' website and I can't buy a ticket at all. Those $99 fares are selling like hot cakes! :zzz:

[Gliese 667 Cc]

Seems to prove the adage :- Build it, and they will come!

[Wing Root]

I'd hate to do that min-rest BWW overnight with a 0430 pick-up for a 0450 sign on about 20 mins west of Toowoomba!Well, it looks like the work experience kid has done the timings for this. You'd end up with 9 hours 45 minutes rest based on my back of the envelope calculations with a 15 minute sign off after 18:35 and 45 minute sign on before 05:20. So either some massaging needs to be done to the timings to get it to 10 hours rest or the morning arrival crew will have plenty of time on their overnight to experience the sights of Toowoomba!

[0tto]

Well, it looks like the work experience kid has done the timings for this.

The work experience kid did get it right. Eastern crew only need 30minutes sign on before departure. Plus the time from hotel pick up to the airport is not recognized as "duty time". So the crew has plenty of rest:mad:. 10hours.

[Going Nowhere]

Looks like 10h exactly from 1850-0450.

No doubt the Eastern PC will be pushing for a 1 sector shift on day 2! :E

[Wing Root]

Ah, interesting. Been a while so forgot they did things differently "down south" :) This certainly meets the definition of min rest then.

[chimbu warrior]

I can't seem to find any details on Wellcamp (under any name, Brisbane West, Toowoomba or Wellcamp) in the AIP.

Shouldn't someone be ensuring it is a licenced airport before commencing operations?

[Oktas8]

Yes, chimbu. Plenty more sleeps before the service starts. Check again after the next AIRAC.

[Southern handler]

Don't Eastern guys and girls only require a 9 hour break, if you look at some of the other overnighting ports then they are often signing off at round 2030 for a morning arrival at airport of 0600 with 0630, Sunstate I pretty sure are same apart from the 45 minute pre departure signon

[Soteria]

Chimbu, correct nothing in the AIP's yet, CASA hasn't finished the certification process thus far. The media announcement was more of an advertisement for the new airport and gives a bit of kudos to the Wagners, the aerodrome in general, QLink and of course Mr Newman et al.
I think the potential that the airport has is huge going into the future. If you add to this the Wagners desire to upgrade the road infrastructure into the region as well you can really see that the once sleepy town of Toowoomba is to become a city.

[TBM-Legend]

From today's Toowoomba Chronicle:

EARLIER: Regional carrier Skytrans has announced that it will stop its Toowoomba-Sydney flights, after Qantas was confirmed to have signed on to Wellcamp Airport today.

A press release from Skytrans issued this afternoon, shortly after Wellcamp's announcement, said it would "hand over controls" to the major carrier Qantas.

QantasLink will be operating 11 return flights to Sydney each week from Wellcamp.

Skytrans managing director Simon Wild said the city could not sustain two players.

"This is a cause for celebration for the people of Toowoomba, and we congratulate both Qantas and the Wagner family for this exciting announcement," Mr Wild said.

"Unfortunately we are a small family airline and our cost structure does not allow us to compete.

"Many regional markets just aren't big enough for two players, and being a small regional airline, we simply can't compete with the larger carriers."

[Defenestrator]

Do QLink operate under an approved FRMS or the standard industry exemption? If under the exemption they can easily do it in one duty period with a 4hr period free of all duty.

[Di_Vosh]

Southern handler

You're correct with your example, but a pre-0600 sign-on means that a 10 hour break is required.

Defenestrator

We have our F/D times detailed in our EBA, and is pretty close to the CAO48 limitations.

DIVOSH!

[BNEA320]

& is already in CRS's.

[BNEA320]

yep SYD crew flying in at 1835, then departing next morning at 0520.


What about fog in winter at that time of morning ?


+ why have any other services unless used by FIFO's ?


Surely must larger % of pax from WTB end not SYD end ?

[Di_Vosh]

What about fog in winter at that time of morning ?

They'll probably react the same way they do at Dubbo, Launceston, Albury, Mildura, Canberra, etc, whenever there is fog at those places in the morning.

IME, fog is generally worst just at daybreak. I've never flown near Toowoomba, but unless there's some local knowledge that I'm lacking (I'm a Mexican, after all :ooh:), a 0520 departure would likely aviod most of it.

It does sound like a prick of an overnight, getting up at 0400. Knowing Qlink, there would NO DOUBT be a Canberra chaser following this sector.

DIVOSH!

[busdriver007]

The fog sits on the range normally east to west and lifts by Gowrie mountain(halfway to Oakey) so Wellcamp is certainly better than the current airport. I can't see Qlink doing the "chock shed approach" from Gowrie mountain.:roll eyes: Yes it can be there in the morning and sometimes lasts for days.

[ACMS]

30 mins sign on?????

How can that be SAFE???? Worlds best practice!!

Re fueling with water check, walk around, de-icing? Flight plan.......

Wow must be nice and relaxing at 05:00.....

[Di_Vosh]

30 mins sign on?????

How can that be SAFE???? Worlds best practice!!

Re fueling with water check, walk around, de-icing? Flight plan.......

Wow must be nice and relaxing at 05:00.....



Day 2 has a 30 min sign-on and has for at least as long as I've been at Qlink (Eastern).


Refuelling (and water test - if any) is done by the re-fueller.
Walkaround done by both crew (now only done by one)
De-icing done by the ground crew
Flight planning was done the day before. Any changes due to weather are 90% of the time "Put more fuel on". Any changes more serious than that generally result in a delayed departure.


When everything is going your way you can be fuelled, de-iced, loaded, and airborne well within 30 min.

Agreed that getting up early for all this sucks balls, but is a reality of regional flying.

DIVOSH!

[Prince Niccolo M]

The question was about safety, ie whether risk has been subordinated to corporate or personal greed - not about what is someone's "reality"...

[Di_Vosh]

The question (as best as I could determine) was whether a 30 minute sign-on was safe with re-fuelling/de-icing/flight planning and all.

The answer given was an explanation that all of that can be done in a safe manner by the various entities involved within the 30 minute period.

Then I added some comment (god forbid that that should happen on Prune :ugh:)

DIVOSH!

[TBM-Legend]

What does all this drivel have to do with Wellcamp? Flight and Duty times are applicable everywhere..

[BNEA320]

Wellcamp plans: direct to Cairns, Adelaide, Melbourne | Toowoomba Chronicle (http://www.thechronicle.com.au/news/the-qantas-deal-to-operate-sydney-services-out-of-/2377114/)


"that Melbourne, Adelaide and Cairns would almost certainly be serviced directly from the Wellcamp airport by Qantas, and another couple of cities were likely as well.
Wellcamp and Qantas were well advanced in their talks"


wonder what aircraft? Wouldn't be a Q400 for those routes.

[MaxFL360]

would most likely go to cobham on those routes. 717 would seem logical. not sure if they could fill a 738. And is the city of toowoomba really expecting 1.5 million to fly in annually within 12-18 months? There are only 13,000 flying in a year with skytrans and the new qlink route will only bring in ~40,000 pax PA

[BNEA320]

yes but you forget about all those that currently drive to BNE or OOL + those who think, it's currently all too hard & expensive.


There will always be some cheap seats on any services.


Maybe F70's or F100's might work better than 717's ?

[Eddie Bauer]

Would there be potential for QF to bring Network in to fly those routes if the rumour is dinkum?

[601]

lifts by Gowrie mountain
The fog lifts half way down the runway at TWB.

[Cactusjack]

The fog lifts half way down the runway at TWB.
Correct. It's an interesting weather pattern at the current aerodrome, often there is fog up to half way along the Runway, while the range and Toowoomba city remains clear. This same phenomena won't affect Wellcamp to the same degree. I have also seen Dash 8's iced up enough that de-icing equipment would have been handy early in the morning, but that level of icing only happens maybe twice per year. Instead you just tow the aircraft into a position facing the sun and let Mother Nature de-ice it naturally. It's a pain in the ass for a few hours with a flow on delay but as I said it is a rare occurrence.

[megle2]

Story goes that ticket purchases to Sydney ex YBWW have been Qantas's most successful route launch to date
Maybe the 400 is too small already

[BNEA320]

or maybe many people want it to look that way. Wagners alone are apparently spending over $200,000,000.00 of their own money.


What's a few $1000 more on tickets to be thrown around.


The test will be in a few months time, if VA decide to do the route or an alternative like to MEL maybe using an E-190. MEL is a bit too far in a Dash 8 (any Dash 8)

[onehitwonder]

I recall doing a charter in a -300, granted the -400 is a bit quicker
Brissy - Thangool - Tamworth (refuel) - Melbourne - Brisbane. ONE LONG DAY in the Dash

[Geoff Fairless]

The great thing about Wellcamp that is being missed in this thread is how it complements air services in the Bris Basin area.

We now have the best distribution of airports of any city in Australia. Imagine how busy SYD airport would be if the citizens of that city were able to fly into SYD North (our Sunshine Coast), SYD South (our Gold Coast) and SYD West (now our Wellcamp) as well as SYD CBD (our Brisbane Airport).

Well done the Wagners!

[BNEA320]

am sure Wagners will make it work. Hope VA starts flying there soon.

[601]

We now have the best distribution of airports of any city in Australia. Imagine how busy SYD airport would be if the citizens of that city were able to fly into SYD North (our Sunshine Coast), SYD South (our Gold Coast) and SYD West (now our Wellcamp) as well as SYD CBD (our Brisbane Airport).

Brisbane (AMB):cool:

[Porjo]

First Qantas flight to/from Sydney took place this morning.

Anyone know what VHF frequencies are being used at this airport? Is it just standard CTAF 126.7 ?

[triadic]

CTAF 127.65. ERSA 13nov14 FAC B-1

At the moment it seems to be "uncharted".....!


Looking at their web page and their conditions of use (46 pages!!) and charges, they certainly don't want any form of GA ops... Min $200 !!

They also prescribe radio calls far in excess of the CASA requirements, which is not really appropriate sice the CTAF is shared by other aerodromes in the vicinity.

[Creampuff]

At the moment it seems to be "uncharted".....!Not if you read NOTAMs. :=

[illusion]

Triadic,
When you invest $200,000,000 in a private business, you call the shots. Light aircraft under 20 tonne should have been banned from Sydney years ago and the Wagners seem to be drawing the line from day one.

Why risk high capacity RPT and international freight connections with private aircraft? The risks in a CTAF environment far outweigh a few bob in extra income.

[601]

I note the media are spooking the line that this is the first public airport built in Oz since Tulla.

Did the airport at Hamilton Island just fall out of orbit?

[Capt Fathom]

Light aircraft under 20 tonne should have been banned from Sydney years ago

Do enlighten us!

[jportzer]

Looking at their web page and their conditions of use (46 pages!!) and charges, they certainly don't want any form of GA ops... Min $200 !!

There is a page here that says it's $16 per tonne with a minimum $60. Certainly not great but better than $200?
http://www.wellcamp.com.au/media/16205/landing-fee-summary.pdf

Or am I missing something?

[OverRun]

Wellcamp.

ERSA calls it: BRISBANE WEST WELLCAMP
2865m x 45m runway.
Strong enough for a fully laden A330-300, which is enough for a 10,000+ km flight; or a 777-300ER at 320 tonnes which is enough for LAX or anywhere in China and India (but not quite DXB). It is also strong enough for a fully laden A380.

Not sure about the length for takeoff performance for all aircraft types, but at the airport elevation of 1509 feet and with an aerodrome reference temperature of 28 degC, the runway is long enough for the 777—300ER at the same 320 tonnes (just).

Pretty capable place. It will take any Australian aircraft to any Australian/NZ airport of course.