Enough!!!!!!!!!!!

[Fat Tony]

I have had ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!
Pensions. Pay. Conditions. CR*P.

This has got to be stopped.

BALPA: Get your butt in gear and start acting like a union!!!! Why do I pay you all this money???!!! Represent me and people like me or we will leave! We need a ballot on industrial action. Not just on the pension issue, or who our next Gen Sec is, but over terms and conditions in general.

We are now forced to bow before the MT drivers who refuse to take us on a bus because it's for the Cabin Crew.

We are assigned work AGAINST OUR WISHES because we are below CAP (No thanks to you guys there)

We are laughed at by the pilots of many other major airlines for our joke of a pay scale. (approx £21k for new entry Cadets).

We are amongst the most productive pilots ANYWHERE but HAVE YET TO SEE ANY MORE MONEY!!!!

We have seen catering standards go from bad to appalling! Half our meals are now almost inedible!!!

We have allowed our company to use September of last year as carte blanche for everything and anything that they wish to have changed. NO! Not on. We do our bit but all I have seen since I joined is constant erosion of EVERYTHING!

When we gave them TLV alleviations subject to conditions.... At what point have they met those conditions???!!!!

How about a bank pay-off once a year??? If I've done the work then surely I should be paid for it!

What about Flight Crew Water Supplies? 1.5l for a JFK? You are having a laugh!

Financial management of BALPA???!!! Where?!!!!

PAY???!!! We now trail our US counterparts by a ridiculous margin. Two crew on all US East Coast routes. Do they do that??? And what is their CAP? Not 90 is it?

I have voted for JF because I see no other option. No change of leader: No change. And that is not acceptable to me. We pay a lot of money to our union and we have seen nothing but worthless talk for some time.

I want:

More money.

More respect.

More time off.

More control of my life at work.

If you agree then let BALPA know. Nigels, Be silent no longer.

[Hot Wings]

Fat Tony - well said! You've got my vote (or did I already give it to JF?).

PAY SCOPE PENSION

[411A]

More...more...more, seems all we hear these days from pilots/ unions.
And this, at a time when many companies are having a difficult time just staying in business.
Some really bright guys at the pointy end really do need to wake up and smell the coffee.
Don't like your jobs/conditions?....then quit, as in bye bye. :rolleyes:

[Raw Data]

Ah, I see.

Pilots = greedy, bloodsucking leeches.

Airline Management = paragons of virtue and maintainers of high ethical standards.

Well, if you really believe that, you are so completely out of touch with reality that you probably also believe that Ryanair is a luxury airline.

Some airline managements are truly inspiring, but others have cynically used Sept 11th as an excuse to cut everything, whilst still somehow making a tidy profit.

Yes, the tone of Fat Tonys post is somewhat self-centred, but the truth is that terms and conditions are on a downward slide- for a variety of reasons.

Personally, I think it is time that passengers paid the true cost of air travel, and crews were rewarded with a salary commensurate with the level of responsibility they shoulder.

[legolas]

411A Why don't you wake up and smell the coffee instead, your ignorance is pathetic.


The World’s airlines lost $12 Billion (U.S.) last year. This is how the people who's arses you have so firmly attached to your nose, demonstrate the depth of their suffering.

"Oh poor me chief airline executive!!, why do my employees always ask for more, can't they see my suffering!!"

'Conquerors of the Skies' don't fly economy

Top male airline executives party in lap of luxury

May. 16, 2002. 12:03 PM

By Susan Pigg
Business Reporter

Some of the most beleaguered chief executives in the world start converging on an exclusive Pennsylvania resort today - many by private jet - to play golf, ride horses and raise countless glasses of single-malt Scotch to brighter skies ahead.

The opulent annual gathering of this old boys club, composed of more than 125 top aviation and aerospace executives from around the world, may appear unseemly given that battered airlines lost a combined $12 billion (U.S.) globally last year - more than they've made in profits in their entire history.

But old habits die hard. And the Conquistadores del Cielo - Conquerors of the Skies - has too rich a history to let little details like appearances ground a good time.

"It's a chance to exchange ideas, but it's very social," said one U.S. airline industry executive lucky enough to have made the guest list for the gathering, which was held last year on the Hawaiian island of Lanai. "The toughest decision you have each day is: Am I going to go sail fishing or scuba diving, am I going to play golf or am I going to go shoot trap or go horse-back riding or jeep riding?

"You're talking aviation all the time. And it's with some of the legends, the kingpins, of the industry. I've told friends of mine, `If you get invited, do not miss it.'"

Few Canadians make the cut. It seems that no Canadian Airlines chief executive was ever invited before the carrier was taken over by Air Canada. Even Max Ward didn't make the list.

Canadian Don Carty is a regular, but that's because he's chairman and chief executive of the world's biggest carrier, American Airlines. Air Canada president Robert Milton has attended in the past and is invited to this year's gathering at the posh Nemacolin Woodlands Resort and Spa in the Laurel Highlands of western Pennsylvania.

The surroundings speak volumes. Nemacolin has its own 1,188-metre private airstrip, two PGA-championship-rated golf courses, a 32,000-square-foot spa facility, equestrian centre with 30 horses, regulation polo grounds, shooting academy and the $2 million Paradise Pool with a swim-up bar. Room rates range from almost $300 to $3,000 (U.S.) per night.

"You talk about heavy metal flying in - the Global Express, BBJs (Boeing Business Jets) - if you're an aviation buff, it's awesome," just watching attendees arrive and depart, said the industry executive, who spoke on condition that his name not be used.

In fact, virtually no one talks publicly about the gathering, for fear they'll raise the ire of fellow members - or, more importantly, send up a red flag to governments fearful about even the appearance of collusion.

"I saw no big business deals coming down. There very well could have been," said the industry insider. "But there was some serious cigar smoking, drinking and poker playing well into the evening.

"It's like when men go out for a drunken night. You're sworn to secrecy. From what I saw there, the female gender is not acceptable."

The Conquistadores del Cielo originated in the late 1930s. That's when legendary aviation pioneers Jack Frye, president of then Transcontinental and Western Air (TWA), aircraft manufacturer Donald Douglas, of Douglas Aircraft Co., and William E. Boeing, who founded the aircraft manufacturing company that's now synonymous with air travel, decided that the growing industry needed a club of sorts.

In many ways, the Conquistadores has been a barometer of the hurly burly airline industry. Well-respected stalwarts such as Juan Trippe, the founder of Pan American Airways, the United States' first international airline, have been members. One of its more colourful members is brash lawyer Herb Kelleher - renowned for his love of cigarettes and Wild Turkey - who has moved up through the ranks as the highly profitable company he started more than 30 years ago, Southwest Airlines, grew in stature.

And every year there are the "newcomers'' - the guys who've risen to the top in an industry prone to cyclical ups and downs, such as David Neeleman, the founder of New York-based JetBlue, who is a Morman who doesn't drink coffee, let alone scotch.

"The guys who started it were swashbuckling kind of people," said another airline executive who's been to many gatherings over the years. "Today everything is quite moderate by the standard of the old days."

The Conquistadores gather twice a year. Only members converge on a Wyoming dude ranch each fall for a few days to hunt, fish, golf "and tell lies," said the airline veteran.

Each spring, the Conquistadores gather at a different resort and each member is allowed to bring a guest or two - invitations that are highly coveted in the industry, and hard proof that your career has taken off.

"You meet a lot of people," Continental Airlines chief executive officer Gordon Bethune told Fortune magazine last year of the annual pilgrimage to the A-Bar-A Ranch in Wyoming. "You fly-fish, play tennis. They do rodeos, ride horses, drink too much, drink too much, ride horses, drink too much. Did I mention drinking?"

There are believed to be just 125 to 165 Conquistadores in the world - some of them now retired from the day-to-day business - all of them chosen by a board of fellow members "as they achieve levels of leadership."

That could prove problematic for the old boys club over the next few decades, as the few women in senior management at major airlines around the world move to the top.

Just last year, Colleen Barrett became the highest-ranking female in the U.S. airline industry when Kelleher stepped down and she took over as president of Southwest.

"I was asked by a female reporter if I'd crash the Conquistadores," Barrett told a Knight-Ridder reporter at the time. "It might be fun and would make a lot of headlines. But I can't think of anything more boring."


Keep playing that violin while the city burns 411A....:rolleyes:

[ac100]

Keep out it's not your battle. Fly your plane and stay out of a discussion that does not affect you. If your happy then find something else to do with you spare time.

[411A]

Well legolas....'tis a club for the bosses....and with the title goes the perks.
Meanwhile, that quarter million dollar a year Delta guy(s) who sit in the Hilton Mainz coffee shop every morning, wolfing down the discounted breakfast, moan that "....damn, it ain't enough!"
Even heard one howl one morning that he would..."have to sell the summer house, the bit@h took me to the cleaners."
Tough beans.

[druckmefunk]

Your arguments are getting a bit thin mate. You use BA and every other underpaid driver in the world as a soapbox to disseminate your "think yourself lucky you've got a job" cr@p, but then revert to the Delta Captain (who is getting paid correctly) to try and portray all pilots as overpaid whingers. If every one was being paid what the Delta Captain is getting, you would have a point. Unfortunately most are getting paid closer to what BA get, and you don't have a point.

[Soddit]

A little off topic but I wonder if our alleged Arizona sage and N5905.2 W0317.2 might perhaps be related. I think we should be told.:D :D

[411A]

No Soddit, absolutely no relation.
But consider...several carriers that I have worked for in the past...the (early-retired) BA guys were ALWAYS complaining that..the schedule was no good, the pay was no good, the co-pilots were no good.....all these negative opinions, and yet....they STAYED. Can only recall ONE who actually admitted that..."good gosh, they actually expect me to WORK here..darn."
Wonder when some will wake up and realise that...the company does NOT owe you a living...you applied and asked for work...and now complain that to JFK only 1.5 litres of water are served?
How about...when we land and arrive at the hotac, beers all 'round. And when you retire at 55....money in the bank.
Can it really BE so bad?

[One_of_the_Lads_1973]

Time you all started to give some thought to how poorly paid the guys who maintain your aircraft are. Thats the big problem now. Poor pay means no new recruits / apprentices to ensure the future of professional aircraft maintenance.
Think on.:(

[fireflybob]

No doubt about pilot pay and conditions have fallen behind.

However, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting to get a different result.

Professional aviation has always been full of insecurity, so doesn't it make sense to develop a secondary income?

I enjoy my flying but there is no way I am going to trust my financial future to an industry which demonstrates time and time again that there is no such thing as "security".

Get real guys and start looking at some of the other options!

[Kaptin M]

The FACT is 411A, pilots are purveyors of their craft/trade.
We agree to sell our flying "skills" to certain purchaser. In return, the terms and conditions of payment are directly conditional upon the skills supplied - pretty much like any contracted tradesman you employ.

If the purchaser then finds that he is UNABLE to make the agreed payment, the vendor is likewise at liberty to adjust the level/degree of quality service supplied.

The 1.5 liters of H2O provided for a long haul flight again draws your envious derision, 411A, so allow me to quote from an M.D.'s (that's a Doctor of Medicine, 411) reference manual wrt to the REQUIREMENT of water, at SEA LEVEL fo the human body to maintain Nutrition, Diet, and Wellness:
Water is an essential nutrient that is involved in every function of the body....It is necessary for all digestive, absorption, circulatory, and excretory functions, as well as for the utilization of the water-soluble vitamins. It is also needed for the maintenance of proper body temperature. By drinking an adequate amount of water each day - at LEAST eight 8-ounce glasses (2.05 liters) - one can be assured that his bodyhas all it needs to maintain good health"
So in light of KNOWN PROFESSIONAL MEDICAL ADVICE, the employer (in this case B.A.) is knowingly and wilfully depriving their crews of LESS than the MINIMUM amount of water determined by Doctors as necessary for maintaing their health.

Withdrawal of payment entitles the provider to supply/withdraw his level of service!

[Fat Tony]

Ladies & Gentlemen...

In response to your comments: My post may appear a little self-centred, but I can assure you that all I want is MARKET RATE. Same as everyone else is getting. And for a company like BA operating the aircraft and routes that we do, the market rate is being set by the Major US and European airlines, and in some cases even the smaller UK airlines.

Regardless of that, we are being progressively shafted.

I want BALPA to put that pay claim back in.
I think I speak for us all when I say that we want more respect at work and an immediate improvement in our terms and conditions. (Pay excluded)

Mike Jeffery always used to say that he was proud to have the best flight crew in the world working for him. Irrespective of whether or not that is true, if you want the best, the pay has to reflect that or they will not join. They may even leave.

I say again: we are being shafted.

[Maximuss]

Tony, I'm with you 100%. Working for BACE, I never expected a mainline rate, but neither did I expect to be so thoroughly over by the BA management (if indeed that is not a contradiction in terms, ie BA and management in the same sentence!!). Management personnel up by nigh on 100%, adjustment to BA management salaries, the most pathetic inability to make any decisions without meetings x twenty, and then just to close us down in four of our bases!!!!!!!

In the meantime, refusal to work with BALPA, and effective cancellation of this years pay rise, a freeze on increments, AND A MORE RESTRICTIVE LEAVE POLICY.

411A is well aware that pilot salary is only about 5% of total costs. He continually cites his one example of the Delta guy - I look forward to this next twelve months and BALPA taking some action. If they don't (and I voted for JF too) I shall be awarding myself an extra 1% payrise - in fact I shall probably do that if JF DOESN'T win!!!!!

[411A]

Well, how about the airline shareholders? Are they not entitled to a reasonable return on their investment? High costs only dilute the earnings.
In all fairness however, I certainly have to admit that BA seems totally overstaffed in the middle-management ranks. Folks in the head office who continually shuffle papers all day long certainly do not contribute to the bottom line.
How about a third option on the "poll"?

c) Get rid of un-necessary staff, and distribute the savings to employees that really DO provide a benefit to the company.

[Fat Tony]

Thank you for your comments. Now please leave us alone. You want a third poll option then start your own thread.

Kind regards,

Fat Tony.

[Maximuss]

Well, hang on Tony - it must be said that is a pretty accurate comment - wouldn't we all agree with that, if it had come from airrage, or exeng or Little Prince, or anyone?:confused:

[rupetime]

Do all Nigelsl really feel now is an appropriate time to demand more money from a company that clearly is struggling to make any ?

As for the amount of water available to cabin crew on long haul
flying ....or being allowed on a certain crew bus...oh dear oh dear oh dear.

BA and that includes its passengers, staff, managers and directors are going to have to face a lot of changes to get it back into profit so give it a few months and the crew bus, water or pay situation may well be a very minor irritation.

Good luck

RT ;)

[Hand Solo]

Well as BA pilots represent less than 13% of the companies total labour costs, are amongst the most long serving of all BA staff, are acknowledged as the most cost effective crew amongst all western inter-continental carriers and still earnless than Ryanair or Easyjet pilots then I think the time is right ot ask for a pay rise, especially as it will reflect the productivity increases in excess of 50% over recent years.

If the company want to save money then perhaps they should allow the flight crew to travel on the cabin crew transport, instead of allowing the MT drivers to demand we travel on a separate bus in order to increase the number of busses and drivers required. Perhaps that would produce a real saving, instead of telling the pilots that from now on they can only have 1.5 litres of drinking water on a long haul flight. If BA want to save money then its time to start picking on the expensive, wasteful areas of the company instead of the cost-effective and productive areas. We've delivered our side of the bargain and now we expect our remuneration to reflect that. IF the company loses cash then take it out of the managers bonusses, not my pocket.

[ac100]

Well Said Hand Solo, Airlines around the world have marked flight crews as a target to pin their financial misconducts on. As you have suggested there are many other areas within an airline that require attention. That would , if constructively and efficently managed, bring tremendous cost savings.

As i have said on my most recent posts, we as professionals are more valuable then any other employee. This is not because i have contempt for any other group within the airline. My statement reflects the training and skill required by flight crews to achieve the position within the airline. This is reflected by the interview process that BA possess. Pilots go through a 4 to 5 day screening process, i believe no other group within the airline comes anywhere near to that sort of interview process. Therefore you are, we are, a vital professional group in the airline and should be treated as such.

[RoyMunson]

Agree with Fat Tony and Hand Solo. Always thought you would get scales of economy with a large operation. How naive am I? It seems the more aircraft you have the higher employee per aicraft ratio becomes at BA. And that quite simply is one of the major problems.
If you are not necessary or do not have a positive impact on the bottom line you shouldn't be there! I think everyone should re-interviewed for their job and justify their postion. It must come from the top down though, but as one skipper I flew with said...."that Rod Eddington....he's like a light house in the desert".....????? "NO F@#*ing use to anyone!!!"
Will be interesting to see what happens to the pay review in the coming months. If BALPA don't sort it I for one will be giving myself a 1% pay rise.
Interesting fact about MT......It would be cheaper to limo the crew to the aircraft than use the '70's' working practices of MT! Amazing how narky they get when you want to travel on the c/c bus when the flight crew bus hasn't arrived. SORT IT OUT!!!!:mad:

[africacore]

Fat tony
ere ere mate come the revolution and I hope it is a lot closer than we all think.
I cannot believe the shower we work for have gotten away with so much.I truly believe without 11-9 we would still have lost as much money - it just got rod off his bum a bit and made him make some decisions and there are still more to come if we are to return to profitability-and before you whinging anti- pilots brigade tell us how lucky we are dont bother.We are working our butt off for below thae market rate!
I cannot believe we as a group did not react more to the death of Stu Clapson - I believe the way he was treated was a disgrace.
And one of the managers who came off badly in the IT -DF was carried home from SEA the other day on a BA Duty ticket the other day in First Class as he was entitled as apparently he is a consultant for BA as well as working for Qatar.Jobs for the boys or what!! Now is the time Brother
Africacore

[Bucking Bronco]

I agree with Fat Tony. It is time we did something to better our pay and conditions - I hope that when the time comes our bite is as good as our bark.

We as a community are vigourously sreened prior to selection, then once in the job are have medicals, are put into the simulator twice a year, route checked, SEP tested and have SESMA watching over us every minute we are in the seat. If we don't perform we are either suspended or given our comics. No other depts within BA have these motivators, if you don't perform, nevermind...try harder next time e.g. B777 retro bunk modification debacle.

Now before 411A labels me as another Management basher Pilot. I have no gripes with paying Managers big salaries as long as they do their job. Far better to have one guy making the right decisions, putting in the hours and earing £120k than 5 guys running around like headless chickens from 10 till 3 earning £30k. W*nkerman's reinterviewing option sounds just the ticket.

ps I Voted JF

[HomerJSimpson]

So it is quite obvious from the poll that the majority are unhappy, and if BALPA were to conduct a poll I think that would more than verify the results. The big question is when are we going to see something positive action on this matter?

[Captain Airclues]

"So it is quite obvious from the poll that the majority are unhappy"

Not so Homer. This is an open forum, and any registered user can vote, whether or not he/she works for BA (even 411A if he felt so inclined!)

Airclues

[wryly smiling]

please excuse the basic level of this question, but how much should a pilot be paid?
I'm in the industry but not a driver

[AA717driver]

wryly--In the '50's and '60's, airline pilots were paid the same as doctors. Now, doc's are in the $120,000-$1M(U.S.) range. If you take UAL's 1981 pay(the last non-concessionary contract) and extrapolate it out for inflation, their current pay is right on line.

People in the U.S. are screaming about UAL and Delta being ruined by the higher pay scales but all they did was get a much overdue cost of living increase.

When cellphone salesmen are making $50,000 and bag loaders are making $50,000(with no overtime) is paying the pilot of a 747-400 $300,000/year out of line?TC

[Airbusser]

Anyway, the wages paid to the flight deck crews only correspond with 3-5% of the ticketprice so why bother!!!!

People are willing to pay 800.000usd /year to their hart surgeon, 100000 usd for breast enlargements,......

Why than is it that everybody envies the wages of a highly trained professional like a pilot?

Isnt it normal that the person who is responsable of a piece of machinery, weighing 350 tons, travelling at over 850kts at altitudes of over 39000ft are paid according to their responsabilities?

If a doctor makes a mistake he can lose 1 life at the maximum. This is horrible and it should be made sure that only capable people are being given those jobs!!!!Totally true, thats why we pay them!

If a flight crew makes a mistake, they can lose 400 lives in the air, thousands on the ground and lose billions of dollars worth of equipment!!!!And those guys should not be paid accordingly?

What a world we live in......

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[AA717driver]

Hey! I'd pay $100,000 to do a breast enlargement.

Long as I get to do a "post maintenance test flight" following:D :D :D !TC

[Land ASAP]

Give us SCOPE and the money will follow. Pilot shortages. Mass Exodus of 737 co-pilots to Easy at LGW and LTN. Flights cancelled due insufficient crews. 'Trouble brewing' causes huge dip in forward bookings. Pay rise by Christmas. Just remember SCOPE is not an unfair request regardless of how the Daily Mail may try to report it.

The majority of BA short haul pilots are paid the same or less than GB/Bmed pilots. SCOPE is the request by BA pilots to include all work done by BRITISH AIRWAYS painted aircraft to be done by BRITISH AIRWAYS pilots. BA routes deemed 'unprofitable' that are donated to GB/BMed are not unprofitable due to flight crew costs. Look elsewhere and you shall find the answer.

[White Knight]

It`s being in that Arizona sun that affects 411a`s way of thinking. But seriously 411, do you know the cost of living here in the south- east of England. As a shorthaul BA captain I struggle to get all the bills paid every month. We are vastly underpaid. I can make it no clearer than that.

Time for action......

[gofer]

Its not just the airline industry - its everywhere.. well almost.

I'm only a PAX, and as such I see it as "you all work for me". My choice is fly cheapo bak of the bus 'cattle class' or pay for what you get, want, need - whatever.

At roughly 700h a year in a flying bus, I probably do as much as you guys, plus I get to do a day job as well....

And yet I want safety, service, punctuality, and all the good stuff - indeed I expect it, so I also have to be prepared to pay for it. Right.

I am, but I am not prepared to pay for some fat cat licking the cream at the top and s****ing the staff. No Airline executive should get more salary that the chief pilot on the line. If that were law - a lot of things would change.

What p*ss*s me off is the inefficiency that has been worked into the industry. Safety and checks and balances - are essential. But there is more than 1 way to skin a cat.

I'm not a communist or a socialist, I believe in fair trade and a healthy dose of capitalism, but in the airline industry some of this global reality has gone - just too far.

How can I support YOU best - by not flying on the airlines where the bosses are raking in 10 fold what a pilot earns and more - perhaps we PAX have to help you bankrupt the system - so that a new order can emerge.

YOU TELL ME - that way at least we will not be shaft**g you.

The only logical solution I can see is to avoid the main airlines and support only those set up by 'ex-pilots & idealists' such as Freddy Laker and Moritz Sutter - ups sorry they are both out of the running ... so what now guys..................:confused:

[Seriph]

Hav'nt got them all locked up have they.

[CAVU]

gofer- you rock star!

Tell me what airline your gonna fly with and I'll apply- you can be my passenger anytime!:D

[SBA]

Do BA really restrict your availability of water to only 1.5 Litres on a JFK, or is that just the allowance provided by them? If you feel the need for more water, perhaps you could take some of your own, or are your pay and conditions so bad that you can't afford a bottle of water. Soon they will take away the Hostie to wipe your arse for you if things are allowed to carry on like this!!
I am fortunate enough to fly for a UK cargo airline. Our pay is 60% of BA levels, we fly mainly at night, pay for our own food and drink, operate older aircraft and are responsible for managing the whole flight on a worldwide ad-hoc basis. Most, if not all of the pilots here are happy with their lot. Why is that?
There have been a few NIGELs in training working here over the years. They all work towards BA as their ultimate goal, the flag carrier, jets from LHR, strutting through the departure lounge wearing a stupid hat and looking important. And when they get there.......they moan about how hard done by they are.
You want our sympathy, NO CHANCE, I think you are a disgrace to our profession.

[Leslie]

Oh dear me! SBA we are not a little envious of our dear Fat Tony and collegues are we. Who told you that you earn 60% of a BA person? Unfortunately pay comparison is not easy due to the complicated systems used by the various companies.
The BALPA statistical gathering of late seemed to suggest that BA pilots were not earning what they were due compared to other european flag carriers.
I think it is great, SBA, that you enjoy your job and are 'happy with your lot'. I certainly love my job and would not want to do anything else but I also have a predilection for other delights in the world which means seeing people in daytime. I would make a poor bat but if thats what you enjoy, great.
I tend to take an opposing opinion to SBA and support FT's sentiments as if BA pilots are getting slowly stuffed by the green eyed monsters in their company, the fall out WILL affect all of us in the UK flying scene.
I once met a skipper from Chippy fryer in a bar and he would not stop wingeing about how BA had come in and ruined everything and BA this, and BA that and what a poor company it was. Unfortunately he let slip that he had gone for selection the year before and got binned. Naturally this raises the question of someone not deemed as suitable to fly big aircraft now having access to those fleets however my point was if it was such a bad company to work for, why apply?
In conclusion I would like to suggest that some at least try to camouflage the large deep fried potato snacks that are on their shoulders. With regard to being a disgrace, pity that I and the majority of the publc view BA pilots up there as the best and I certainly think they look very smart with platinum stripes. I've always found them to be pleasant to speak to...some BA detractors on this forum appear quite venomous and bitter - great fun on a night flight full of rubber dog stuff out of Hong Kong!!
Kind regards,
yours aye,
Leslie

[SBA]

Leslie,
Sorry to disappoint you but I am quite happy on a 53 tonne four engine aircraft that still requires a pilot or two and have never felt any desire to apply to BA. If I wanted to operate a computer for a living I wouldn't have bothered with the ATPL.
You think I must be a little envious, but this thread is three pages of BA pilots saying that conditions are so bad they should be taking industrial action. What am I supposed to be envious of?
"BALPA state that BA pilots are not earning what they are due compared to other European flag carriers." Surely what you are due is related only to the performance of BA. If other carriers are offering higher salaries, it is probably because they are in a better position to do so. This may be through better management, better working practices, more efficient crewing, government intervention or just sheer luck. None of this changes the fact that if the Company isn't making money, it is downright stupid to be demanding a salary increase. Just call in at the Brussels dole office and ask the Sabena pilots that went on strike a month before the airlines collapse.
Perhaps their grievances were less important than half a litre of water and a crew bus.

Enjoy your whingeing!!

:p :D More than just a number :p :D

[Land ASAP]

You've got a point there SBA. I dowonder how many Sabena pilots are still at the dole office. A handful maybe? Most of them are working for a company called DAT and the rest are flying for various companies around Europe. What I do know is that there are a large number of Sabena 'executives' finding it tough to find another job. Here lies the Nigels gripe. BA use the term 'market rate' as a club to beat us with when we come cap in hand over the last few years. Why can't we use it now?

Whilst your at it, tell me what you earn so that I can check your 60% statistic, because the DHL rates I've looked at are not 60% of what I'm getting.

[Hand Solo]

Judging by SBAs location and job description I'd wager he's flying for someone like Air Atlantique, on something old and clapped out like an Electra. Well good for him, I'm sure he's a martyr for his employer. Strangely there are a couple of former Air A pilots just up the road at BHX flying for BA. Both excellent operators and neither in the least bit bitter about BA. I suppose some people just get on with their careers and others just sit around resenting them for doing so. If he wants to fly a computer he should stick to his Flight Sim 2000. If he bothered to find out he'd discover the that modern airliners are actually real aircraft, and considerably more complex, higher performance systems than Electras. Still, our guys enjoy flying them just as much as the 747 Classics, 747-400s, 737-200s, 737-400s, 757s, 767s, 707s, L1011s, DC10s, A300s, BAC 111s, ATPs, ATRs, DC 3s, Bandeirantes and Twin Otters they used to fly.

By the way, if you think pay should be performance related then consider which airline has flown billions of passengers across the world for over twenty five years without a crash. I'd say thats a pretty good performance.

[JW411]

Hand Solo:

"Which airline has flown billions of passengers across the world for over twenty five years without a crash"?

I always feel a bit uncomfortable when someone trots out the "safety card". It almost seems to be tempting fate. It could just as easily have been one of your 757s that bit the dust over southern Germany last week. Would one of your crews have reacted any differently to the TCAS warning than the DHL crew did? I very much doubt it.

Anyway, I presume that you are referring to British Airways in your safety statement? If so, what about the accident to Boeing 737-236 G-BGJL at Manchester on 22 August 1985? Please don't tell me that this doesn't count for it was a British Airtours flight and not a British Airways flight for that would be rather disingenuous.

The fact of the matter is that BA has had its fair share of luck over the years. The near collision between the 747 and the Penta Hotel is a case in point.

The Channel 4 documentary hardly presented a very good image of crew professionalism and made one wonder how long this had been going on for Channel 4 to get a hold of the story in the first place. The national press reports of the 757 captain who tried to report for a flight at Athens some 2 hours after leaving a night club were scarcely edifying either. I also seem to remember something about a BA F/O in uniform failing a police breathaliser test on the M4 on his way to work?

Let's face it, a lot of luck has been involved as well as everything else otherwise any one of the aforementioned gentlemen could easily have caused a disaster.

I am not surprised that your ex-Air Atlantique guys are happy. I would guess that they find their new life in BA money for old rope compared to where they have been.

I have never flown the products of M Airbus but friends who know (senior Airbus trainers) tell me that once you have grasped the Airbus philosophy, they are a piece of cake to operate. Let's face it, hundreds and hundreds of them get airborne every day all over the world and very, very few of them end up as smoking heaps!

I think SBA was perhaps trying to suggest that his job is just a wee bit more demanding than yours. I think he might well be right.

[SBA]

JW411, Thanks for the support. I would not wish to make any presumptions regarding whose job is the more difficult as it is horses for courses, and I certainly would not like to cast any doubt over the professionalism of BA or any other operator.
The point I was trying to make was that in my view it defies belief that in the current climate BA pilots are crying for industrial action over pay and conditions. Pilots throughout the UK have suffered pay cuts at best and redundancy in many cases. BA is on its knees and has made thousands redundant, arguably through no fault of their own.
This thread was put forward on a public forum rather than a BA private forum (I assume they have one) and I can only guess that this was with the intention of airing grievances in the public domain. If you do that, then you leave yourself open to criticism from those who disagree. I have no axe to grind with BA or their pilots, despite the accusations levelled by Leslie and Hand Solo, but the contents of this thread in the public domain discredit the whole profession which does extend beyond LHR terminal 4.
Had there been a call for industrial action over the thousands of BA ground staff laid off post 11/9, you would have had my full support, however, not a murmur on that front as they were not pilots so presumably don't matter. How do you think they feel hearing that the pilots, who already enjoy amongst the best pay and conditions in the country, want more?

Land ASAP, you seem to be suggesting that the Sabena pilots all just moved into other positions and therefore it didn't matter much to them that the carrier went under. DAT, who you quote as employing many of the Sabena pilots was a franchise operator for Sabena with a lower cost base and inferior pay and conditions for aircrew than the former mainline pilots. So there is Mr. Eddingtons perfect business plan. Shut down the mainline short haul operations with its huge cost base and obvious labour problems and transfer the whole lot to a franchisee (GB for example). The pilots can have their jobs back if they want under reduced terms and conditions. That is pretty much what has happened in Belgium.

So despite the accusations of envy and bitterness, If BA have a genuine grievance then I wish them the best of luck in their claims, but the water allowance and ground transport issues suggest to the outside world that the motivation for these claims is nothing but sheer greed.

[JW411]

SBA:

I congratulate you on your very eloquent posting and I agree with just about everything you say. It is a sad fact that a lot of folks in our profession are still living in cloud-cuckoo land.

You are quite right about about the ex-SABENA situation. I am told by pilots who live in Belgium that "hundreds" of ex-SABENA pilots are still looking for work. Some of them have gone down to the Congo to take up the prestige jobs that are on offer there.

Furthermore, I had a conversation with a friend who was recently in a position to hire some pilots and he told me that he would not consider hiring ex-SABENA pilots for at least another 18 months for they have to learn how to be hungry first!

All things being considered, I think I could live with a 1.5 litre water allowance.

[Hand Solo]

So here we go again, its getting tedious but I'll add some facts to the debate.

JW411 - note I used the word 'crash'. You can hardly count Manchester as that, as I'm sure you'll recall it was an on ground incident with not a great deal the crew could do given the indications available to them and common operating practices of the day. Fact is we still haven't flown into any mountains for a long time and thats got rather more to do with the flight crew. Perhaps it is tempting fate to say things like that, but so be it. Maybe we've been lucky and others have not, but it seems the more we practice the luckier we get. Poor old CAL seem to be having a lot of strife lately, and I don't think thats down to bad luck.

Now the C4 documentary. Its been covered exhaustively on this forum before but to recap the key points:-

C4 could make an equally damning expose of your airline given unlimited time and money to follow and film crews, and total freedom to edit footage, dub your words and misrepresent times, places and actual events.

C4 filmed over 200 hours of video footage, yet only 23 mins was considered worthy of airtime, much of that being dubbed.

At the end of thorough disciplinary investigation, only 2 pilots (I think) were found guilty of gross misconduct and dismissed. A third resigned, although having (allegedly) been romantically involved with the protagonist previously he had been singled out for attention and followed on several occasions. Over 100 pilots were filmed, only 3 had commited serious wrongdoing.

You clearly believe an Airbus flies itself, yet there are plenty of detractors who'll point to smoking holes the world over where A320s have met their demise. Its still just an aircraft, despite the absence of a yoke, and a particularly slippery high performance aircraft that will get you in a lot of trouble very quickly if you don't stay on top. I don't know what you fly, but I chose not to say its a piece of cake when I no nothing about it.

Perhaps you think Sabena pilots are lazy, therefore so are BA pilots. Well at the last comparison I seem to remember we were doing twice as many block hours per month, so I suggest if you have that opinion then it is flawed. Furthermore your friend sounds like he has a very large chip on his shoulder seeing as he tars all SN pilots with the same brush rather than assess each individual on his merits.

My question to you - do you actually know any current BA pilot, or do you base all you opinions on the prejudices aired on this board and the jaundiced views of your long retired BA 747 Captain friend, who quite probably flew in a BA that he wouldn't recognise today.

SBA - Your points in turn-

Yes, pilots across the UK are losing their jobs, mostly in the IT sector with some in VS and BM. BALPA seems to be of the opinon that these job losses are due to knee jerk reactions by airline accountants and the sudden rehiring spree and suspension of redundancies support that view. Yet the low cost carriers need pilots faster than they can hire them, and are paying good rates. BA on the other hand are pleading poverty, yet flying chock full aircraft all over Europe, often with excellent business class loads, yet frequently paying their pilots comparable or lower wages than low cost carriers. If the company is losing money its not our fault, nor do I intend to subsidise the failings of other departments from my own pay packet.

There has been no call for industrial action for the thousands of ground staff laid off by BA because 9 months on from 911 BA has not laid anybody off. There has not been a single compulsory redundancy. We still have 18000 managers, and were still losing money hand over fist, just like we were before 911. And don't forget that some of those ground staff earn considerable sums. Tug drivers earning more than junior co-pilots? Managers reassinged from Waterside to LHR customer services on full pay? Some BA pilots enjoy amongst the best pay and conditions in the country, but the majority of short haull could achieve an equivalent package on their current aircraft elsewhere pension excluded (and that is under threat), ask any new DEP. If BA were really in deep we'd have seen real redundancies and not Manpower Equivalent Reductions. Interestingly the Future Size and Shape document only called for an MPE reduction of about 200 pilots to be achieved through retirement in the coming year, recognising the fact that we barely have enough pilots to cover the reduced schedule.


As for franchises, Rod has stated he is against franchises in principal. They were largely a product of the Ayling era. The theory of a franchise is they develop routes that are too lean for mainline, then when the routes grow mainline take them back and the franchise develop new routes. The problem with transferring all work to franchises is you then get less revenue than you did before but still have to support the massive corporate infrastructure upon fewer routes and it just doesn't work. As I have stated countless times before, flight crew costs are just 13% of BAs total labour costs (BAs own figures) and reducing year on year due to the retirement bulge. Slashing a third of the flight crew wont dent the enormous losses we're making. As for the reduced terms and conditions, having heard from some recently retired skippers who now work for a major franchise I'd gladly accept the increase in basic pay and the slashing of the number of sectors I do each month.

I consider it a great shame that you consider that our claim stems from greed, though I would be interested to hear your opinions on the recent 20% pay rise awarded to NHS consultants as part of a reform of their anachronistic pay system.

The simple fact is that despite the vitriol and hyperbole often directed at BA pilots, wages have declined significantly in real terms whilst productivity has increased hugely. Pay rises have been RPI or less, whilst the cost of living within travelling distance of our home base has risen almost exponentially. These modest increases have been accepted whilst other departments in the company have seen significantly higher rises without delivering productivity improvements. Goodwill has been squandered by management. Pilots have been told theres no more money available whilst staffing levels have sky rocketed and profits plummeted. We've been told 'market rate', yet our 737 trainers are being poached by low cost carriers. The majority of BA pilots are not paid in excess of the market rate and when compared to our european counterparts are paid significantly less for significantly more work. As was mentioned in the last edition of The Log, BA don't charge any less for there tickets, why should they get away with paying less.

I think it is a measure of our conservatism as a group that people take the time to try to explain our case on these forums. However, when the time comes the key point will be that our pay is our business and I really don't care what the Daily Mail or anyone else thinks I earn because they're not paying my bills. BA will pay as little as it can. If our rise breaks BA then maybe we'll talk about a pay cut later, but even an enormous 20% rise only adds 2.6% to the total labour bill, hardly bankruptcy stuff. Sensitivity be damned, because everybody in BA is renegotiating pay this year and I bet you wont find the cabin crew or MT drivers being moderate.

[Leslie]

Horrah!
Bloody well said

[JW411]

Hand Solo:

So here we go again: Surely you must realise by now that every time you stick your head above the parapet whilst blowing a trumpet someone is liable to take a pot shot?

Manchester was not a crash it was an on ground incident: My guess is that the relatives of those who perished saw it as rather more than an incident. You surely cannot be suggesting that provided you die before V1 it doesn't count? Certainly, I did not nor will I point any criticism in the direction of the operating crew.

Fact is we still haven't flown into any mountains for a long time: So what is so special about that claim? I can think of dozens of airlines who have never flown into mountains either. Certainly none of the ones that I have ever flown for have collided with a mountain. Are you really saying that you have to fly into a mountain before it can be called a crash? If so, what would you call the SAS MD80 collision with the German Citation at Linate?

C4 - only 2 pilots were found guilty: Perhaps that was 2 too many? You would have to admit that the publicity was not good.

Airbus: I did not say that I think an Airbus flies itself. I have already stated that I have no experience of the products of M Airbus. What I said was that those who do know tell me that once the Airbus philosophy is fully understood it is a piece of cake to fly.

SABENA pilots: I never said anything about SABENA pilots being lazy. Once again, I never worked for SABENA and could not possibly comment. I merely passed on a couple of comments made by their fellow countrymen.

BA pilots: I never said anything about BA pilots being lazy.

BA friends: Most of the ones who are in my age group retired from BA at age 55. Some of them are now flying with other operators. Sadly, one of my best mates (L1011 F/E) died yesterday so no doubt we shall be planting him next week.

The ones who are still flying with BA are the younger ones who have passed through my hands on their way to BA. Funnily enough, most of them went on to the 767 fleet.

747/Penta: I notice that you made no comment about how lucky that was. Would that have constituted a CFIT crash despite the Penta not being a mountain?

757/Athens: No comment on that either?

Water allowance: I had it in mind that this started with a bitch about the long haul water allowance being cut to 1.5 litres. I used to have to be careful about getting dehydrated but I don't think I could sink 1.5 litres of water between London and LAX.

[Bucking Bronco]

Quite!

Hand Solo, well put.

JW411, are you a relation of 411A? You seem to come out with the same sort of drivel, however I don't think that even he would resort to reopening old wounds and trying to hijack the obvious grief of relatives of the MAN deceased; shame on you for attemping to use their emotions to score points on a forum. As for the unprecednted event itself we have all learnt valuable lessons and pray that a similar accident does not happen again.

SAS/LIN.
Were you aware that a BA aircraft was cleared for take off but declined as the crew had noticed that the TCAS had not indicated that SAS was airborne? I agree that good and bad luck does raise its head occassionally but I would like to think that at BA our training and focus on operational integrity is such that we are prepared to deal with bad luck without having to rely on good luck. The simple fact is that "British Airways" has only had one hull loss in its history - in Kuwait during the Gulf War when the Iraqis had a pop at the empty aircraft. I hope that this continues.

C4
Obviously bad publicity but ask yourself 3 questions... i) if the makers were concerned about safety why did they withhold 'evidence' for over 7 months and allow drunk pilots to coninue flying? ii) re safety why were the film crew happy to board the airplane for return flights? iii) how many accidents have there been due to drunk pilots compared to fatigued pilots? As recent research in UK and US tiredness causes more road accidents than drunkeness. Surely then an investigation into dubious charter operations night flying there and back to the middle east.

Sabena
Whereas Hand Solo bears facts you state,"I merely passed on a couple of comments made by their fellow countrymen." Well why don't you just ask Joe Bloggs what he thinks about any operation in the UK, or better still don't bother asking and just assume what he will say - what a load of b******t!

B747/Penta Hotel
The B747c was notorious for occassionally hunting through the LOC, the crew were tired and got "landitus". However they did go around. The subsequent inquiry and handling of the crew in particular the Capt was not done well at all and he ended up paying the ultimate price - rest in peace you hurt no one.

B757/Athens
Unfortunately a tea-totaller who got a new command went out to celebrate, got drunk, couldn't handle it and f****d up. The crew intervened and the aircraft did not get airborne. For us that drink we have all made idiots of ourselves under the influence, sadly for this chap the first time for him was at work.

Water Allowance
How long is a LAX 10 hours perhaps, I don't know but the last JFK I did was 7hrs 48 mins. Bearing in mind you lose 500ml of water per hour of cruise and you cannot drink more than 1.5l I think that you would be severely dehydrated. Looking at my bottle of Highland Spring..."Most adults need to drink 8 glasses of water a day - only 1 in 10 do." and "A reduction of your daily requirements of water by 4-5% can reduce your concentration and performance by 20-30%" I think that you are also missing the point people are trying to make and that is there is constant erosion of our terms and conditions both major and minor, enough is enough.

We all await your response

:rolleyes:

[JW411]

Big Brutha:

Are you a pilot at all: I came out of flying training 40 years ago and have been flying 4-engined aircraft ever since - apart from nearly 8 years on a three-holer.

Dried-up prune: My wife would probably be the first to agree that I have more than a passing resemblence to a dried-up prune but that is not as a result of dehydration.

Knowledge: Yes, I have picked up some knowledge over the last 40 years otherwise I would not be alive today.

Self righteous: I don't think I am any more self righteous than any of the others who post on these forums.

Manager: I am not, never have been nor do I ever intend to be a manager. Mind you, I have met some very good and some very nice managers over the years - I have also met some who have been pretty useless and nasty with it!

Dehydration: See below.

Bucking Bronco:

I note that you are eagerly awaiting my reply so I do hope that I haven't kept you waiting too long.

411A: I have said it many times before, I am not in any way connected with the esteemed gentleman in Arizona. When Danny went on to the new system, my old nom de plume got lost and I keep appearing as JW411 which was my old password. I cannot be bothered to change it.

Shame on you: I do not feel any sense of shame at all. Hand Solo started this when he made his 25 years without a crash statement. Sadly, he did not say that dying on the ground didn't count. I thought it was rather insensitive of him to brush off the Manchester 737 tragedy as an "on ground INCIDENT" which gave the impression that it didn't really matter. I would have thought that it was at the very least an on ground ACCIDENT and a pretty tragic one at that. Once again, I stress that I do not point any blame at the operating crew. They did the best possible job in the circumstances and with the information they had available to them at the time. It was not me that trivialised the event.

TCAS at Linate: The BA crew displayed excellent airmanship by refusing the take-off clearance from ATC at Linate. Indeed, they should never have been given take-off clearance until the SAS MD80 had reported "airborne".

747/Penta: You are quite right. The captain paid the ultimate penalty and surely that was an avoidable tragedy. However, I don't think you can dismiss it totally by saying that the 747-100 had a habit of wandering around the localiser. Were they not attempting a Cat 3 approach when the whole crew were not qualified and the aircraft equipment was not up to snuff?

757/Athens: I had no idea that the new captain was a TT on his first night into the booze. That is very sad. I am sure that you are right in stating that the rest of the crew would have done something about it but wasn't it the receptionist at the hotel who sounded the first alarm bell by calling BA at the airport?

Dehydration: I note that your Highland Spring (there's posh) label tells you that most people don't drink enough water and that we should drink much more. Could it just possibly be that this exhortation is a commercial whose purpose is to get you to buy more Highland Spring?

Being serious now, I still could not put away 1.5 litres of H2O on a London to LAX flight. (It used to take us closer to 11 hours for we cruised at 0.82M). I used to drink mostly soda water or ordinary water but must confess to taking the odd coffee and Coca Cola which are, of course, very bad for you!

So were the cold beers in the hotel afterwards and the air-conditioning was less than helpful. I used to have to make a conscious effort to rehydrate before going flying. Ah well, none of us are perfect.

One interesting experiment that I got involved in in the Middle East; I used to have to sit in an aeroplane for about 2 hours at night while a bunch of co-pilots did touch and go landings etc. It was very hot and very humid and we could not pressurise the aeroplane for obvious reasons.

The aviation medics got us to record the volume of fluid (of any sort) that we drank in the following 24 hours. The average was a mind-blowing 16 pints after only 2 hours of this sort of flying.

Thought: I think SBA has asked the question but if you chaps don't like the responses that you are getting then why do you discuss bottles of water on a public forum? Would you not be better advised to stick to the BA forum and then we will all leave you in peace.

Finally: If you are looking for another reply then you will have to wait for I am going to commit aviation tomorrow and will be on the road for a week.

[Bucking Bronco]

Thanks for the speedy response, I will have to research the Penta incident to ascertain your claim that the crew were not qualified but something I seriously doubt.

I think the MAN event has been aired enough and if you look at yours and Hand Solos views you are probably singing from the same sheet, just perhaps an error in choice of vocab.

WRT dehydration...quite possibly a commercial ploy by Highland Sprong but there are strict guidelines on what you can purport your product to deliver. Times have changed since you were a lad and Mr McDougal used to flog his amazing brain tonic (that cures all ailments) from his horse and cart.

Some independent websites to have a browse...

www.go.ednet.ns.ca/~larry/bsc/dehydrat.html
www.safetycenter.navy.mil/media/approach/vault/articles/0140.htm

...when you have the time of course!

I think the topic starter and the rest of us Nigels have every right to air our views on this forum, don't worry the BA forum has equally fiery views. I believe that it is a valid thread as some pilots out there working for other airlines may be happy/unhappy at this time. The whole water spiel is just serving as an example of what we have to put with; in other companies it may be no soft toilet roll I don't know until they air their views here.

Thank you

Bronco

PS As for me I am also off to commit aviation for a few days and will keep myself hydrated and on top form. :D

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

JW411,

Wasn't the Manchester incident British Airtours rather than British Airways ? How divorced the two companies were from each other, I can't remember. 411A, I think your'e on a hiding to nothing here and Bucking Bronco, W*****man, and Hand Solo are absolutely correct. The steady erosion of pay and conditions has to be of concern, and your blatant sympathy with the bean counters in selling us all further down the river is helping no-one.

[JW411]

Bucking Bronco:

I am on my way to bed and have just picked up your reply for which I thank you. Perhaps we understand one another a little bit better now?

Penta Incident: I am sure you will be able to retrieve it from the AAIB website. As far as I can remember they arrived back to a very foggy LHR (from Bahrain?) and the airfield was Cat III.

The F/O had not done the Cat III course. A discussion took place with BA management and it was decided that they should do it anyway. The autoland system did not work well or even self-test well and various autopilot channels kept falling out.

The G/A took place very close to the ground and not on top of the runway otherwise there would have been no problem.

I also seem to recall that the poor old F/O was suffering from Ghandi's revenge and should probably not have been talked into flying in the first place.

Nevertheless, the outcome from the captain's point of view was a real tragedy and I don't think he got the best possible help from anyone. Certainly he made an error of judgement but it was never revealed just how much the management staff on the ground were culpable in letting him (or even encouraging him) to make the approach in the first place.

Which reminds me of an interesting tale; I was going round the hold early one morning waiting for the RVR to get up to 300 metres so that I could make a Cat II approach. A BA aircraft was 1,000 feet above me.

Eventually I was given 300 metres RVR and started an approach.
The BA aircraft then asked to make an approach. "I thought you were waiting for 600 metres" said ATC. "We've just been called by the company and told that we are now Cat II qualified" said he.

I thought this to be an interesting statement but I wasn't half as interested as the CAA Ops Inspector sitting on my jump seat who was more than curious as to know how you can suddenly become Cat II qualified whilst going round the hold. To say that his pen was smoking would be an understatement! Sadly, I never did hear what the outcome was.

Choice of Vocab: Very important otherwise you will be badly misunderstood.

Dehydration: Until I got on to the three-holer, everything big that I had flown before had a humidifier system. This was usually a drip-feed from the domestic water supply into the air conditioning and it worked remarkably well.

Then I went on to the American 3-holer and it did not have such a system (but I didn't notice this amongst the welter of other more important ARB information).

One morning, after a flight to JFK, I was shaving in the mirror and suddenly noticed tiny flashing lights in the corner of my right eye. This was quite worrying but it went away very quickly and I very soon decided that it hadn't happened.

Next time it was my left eye - same conclusion. Then, one day it was BOTH eyes and that scared the hell out of me. By lucky chance my local GP was an ex-RAF aviation medicine man and the first question he asked was "is your aircraft fitted with a humidifier system"? "No" said I. "Then you are dehydrated" said he. He calculated that by the time we got to LAX the air in the cabin was only 7% humid. (For those of you who do not know, this is not good).

If you are badly dehydrated, the act of getting out of bed in the morning is enough to raise your blood pressure to very high levels and "little flashing lights" is a good indicator that you need some H2O.

Public Forum: You very definitely have every right to talk about your bottles of water on the public forums but you must also expect someone to take a swipe at you. I most certainly reserve the right to so do!

Enjoy your flying - I certainly will!

[nojacketsrequired]

Hello to you all,
As 'Head of tea pots' at BA I would just like to add my support to my colleagues on the flight deck.I thought I would communicate my views via the forum to help bring back CRM.
This is because since the locked door policy CRM these days is about as much use as the condom and the pill for a couple trying for children.

I feel at BA I earn a wage that justifies the job I do....
Serve tea&coffee,put out fires,medical help,evac an aircraft in 90 secs and bring back people to fly with us.

HOWEVER........my colleagues at the front are well qualfied,highly trained and at the end of the day can save my a*s and all the others.

To that end I feel that it is only fair they earn equal to their counterparts in 'Oneworld' e.g. Iberia who earn substantially more for somewhat less !!!!.

They are not asking for anything more than they deserve and
I sincerely hope on this occasion,regardless of the financial position of BA that management understands that unless they pay the going rate there are many airlines out there BA pilots can leave and go to other carriers paying higher saleries. BA ........beware!!!.

NJR.(Bacardi&Diet Coke loads of ice and lemon).

To help you chill out visit:www.worldairlinephotography.co.uk

[Rananim]

If BA pilots had any moral backbone,they would have made the management stand down over the appaling treatment of Capt Clapson.By chosing to look the other way,they displayed a sickening heartlessness or was it just apathy?Now you want to strike over money...nobody should be rewarded for cowardice.

[Hand Solo]

Aaah nothing like a bit of crass stupidity to liven up a debate. Exactly how do your suggest BA pilots could force the resignation of BA management? By writing a strongly worded letter? By getting in a huff and coordinating an illegal work-to-rule that would see BALPA assets seized? Get real, if such a utopian option was available in BA all the staff would have rid themselves of all the management a long time ago and awarded themselves the pay savings. Don't waste the Pprune bandwidth until you have something useful to say.

[exeng]

Rananim,

A completely meaningless post, Hand Solo says it all.


NoJacketsRequired,

Thank you for your support.


To everybody else out there,

This poll, whilst useful, does not accurately represent the feeelings of BA Flight Crew. The poll on the private BA forum at the moment stands at about 96 to 4. I didn't ask exactly the same question, but near enough is good enough.

To LCG & Skippy,

Look out because we really do mean business this time !


Regards
Exeng

[pige]

Why does management screw pilots? Because they can. I doubt any pilots will cross below their bottom line whilst doing their job. Lowering your productivity in responce to decreasing reward is a luxury pilots do not have (though a natural human response). The flying game, especially airlines is NOT what it once was. There is not the unity amoungst peers nor the mutual goals and respects for different roles. Probably a reflection of a materialistic, greedy world. Never the less, yes one can leave the game, but the majority of concerns voiced here are very real, and only come accross as whingeing as they don't have the power to change the way it is going. Why advertise....flying is magic.

[Rananim]

Hand Solo,
Stand down =back off,change ones decision....NOT RESIGN.
You misread and misquotedme....perhaps you'rethe waste of bandwidth...
If your union doesnt have the power to tell the management when its treating its flightcrew in a criminal fashion and ENFORCE A REDRESS then you shoud change yourunion.Capt Clapson's treatment was a disgrace...you obviously do things differently on your side of the pond.

[Hand Solo]

In the English language (thats not Microsoft English) 'stand down' means resign. I think pressing for a ballot on strike action in support of Capt Clapson was a reasonable step for our union. Sadly it became a moot point, firstly because the union-backed case for unfair dismissal was won and finally because, tragically, Capt Clapson died very shortly after this case.

I would respectfully suggest that you:

1) Learn to use the English language correctly.

2) Refrain from commenting on matters that you have practically no knowledge or understanding of.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Surely the solution to BA's problems is out there and awaiting gainful employment right now.


What you guys need is a Chief Exec who knows the business, BA itself, is known and respected by the Board, has a tip-top proven track record in the industry, is respected and trusted by the City, and who will motivate and be respected by the staff.

Her name is Barbara Cassani.

[Lance Rootem]

What's she going to do, pay the grossly overpaid and demotivated CC even more money, in an effort to motivate them? I know what I'd do!

[zoru]

Fat Tony,

I hope all you guys stick together and get balpa to start earning their fees.

this problem affects all us pilots in one way or another,or will do in future years.

i'm not BA and have no axe to grind against them,but lets face it if they want to turn around the situation they will need the full support of the pilots...i hope they give you a bite of the carrot before the big stick comes out in earnest at waterworld.

good luck to you all.