Winds Of Change.

[GlueBall]

Obviously, the big picture is that the Mainlanders are pulling the strings at CX. Not a threat, just a statement of fact.

Big China with over one billion citizens has lots of available manpower to fill every vacant position at CX 100 times over at a fraction of current salaries paid. Anybody can be trained, re trained, tested and retested for a job. It takes time, but it can be done and it will be done. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon, and forever.

So if you're planning a career for the future at CX, my unsolicited advice would be to lower your expectations, because this is as good as it gets!

CX is a Chinese carrier. Check up on the working conditions and pay of the Mainlanders who are flying the same equipment at: Shanghai Airlines, China Southern, China Southwest, China Northern, China Eastern, Air China.... As Westerners are we really in a position to dictate how a sovereign Chinese airline is to be managed and operated? As "guests" at a foreign comany in a foreign land, can we superimpose our Western philosophy of work standards and compensation? Hellooooooo.

PS. I'm not an airline manager, just an ordinary USA driver who has travelled a great deal, "been there done all that," and one who has an affinity for practical reality.

Cheers :cool:

[Kaptin M]

Ummm, did you ever stop to think that perhaps the conditions of the mainland Chinese are not fit for dogs?
Ever noticed the higher incidence of accidents and incidents in the airlines you've mentioned and wonderd "Why?".

A forecast was made about a decade ago, that by the year 2014 there will be 1 hull loss per week, of an airline transport aircraft.

It seems that airline management - particularly those of "One World Alliance" are RUSHING to fulfill that prophesy by adversely degrading pilots' working conditions wrt rest periods, duty times, etc!

It is these IRRESPONSIBLE, purely economic-based decisions, with DISREGARD for Safety, that will greatly contribute to increased crashes.

Management with this LACK of SAFETY psyche have no place in aviation, and are a DANGER to the flying public!

[411A]

Hey there Kaptin M, beating the pay, pay, pay drum...and now all of a sudden...it's safety, safety, safety.
Why the switch??
AND, if the pay is less, just why do you "assume" that safety is compromised?

[Kaptin M]

Reprint ANY of my articles where I've beaten the pay drum, Mr Airline Magnate - or wind your neck in.

Safety has ALWAYS been my priority, and you my "friend" are one of those individuals who are a possible threat to it, if you ever get that museum of aircraft aiborne in Indonesia. And WHY do I say that 411A, because you are OBVIOUSLY strapped for cash, with your not so grandiose plans of dragging your Yankee @ss down to a third world/developing country (Indonesia) to set up (cheaply) some hotch-potch "fleet" of more clapped out aircraft (to compliment the C411), and pay your pilots peanuts with the attitude that because you're paying them SOMETHING (probably rupiah), they should be forever indebted to you, and accept whatever conditions are forced upon them.
I would guess there are more than a few people waiting for you to start your company (but I'll lay 10 to 1 it NEVER gets going :eek: ) and have its first incident so that your well publicised views on FTL's and pilot work conditions can be presented to the Insurance companies and courts, as evidence of your disdain and disregard of the same!

"AND, if the pay is less, just why do you "assume" that safety is compromised?"
Peruse the accident records, 411A, and see if you can tell me how frequently the names Korean, China Airlines, Aeroflot, Garuda, etc,appear. Then look up Cathay Pacific, QANTAS, Delta, et seq.

[KIFIS]

Kaptain M:

You are talking a lot of offensive and arrant rubbish and I suggest you read GlueBall's thread again because even though he is not living in Asia he seems to know more about what is going on than you do.

Recently I toured the Peoples Republic of China and flew on the National carrier plus five other domestic airlines. I have nothing but praise for all of them ie Air China, China Southwest, China Southern, China Eastern , China Northern and Hainan Airlines. Included amongst the above was a flight into a small airfield in Yan'an (north China) in a Dornier 328. From Air China's B747 to the small Dornier it was full marks to all. Every departure on time, clean tidy aircraft , courteous cabin service, adequate food (better than Qantas or Delta), newspapers and magazines, crews well turned out with caps on, good English PA, positive emergency briefings. From the point of view of a critical pilot flying as passenger I found no fault. Smooth taxying, smooth rotations, good landings off stabilised approaches. It was a pleasure to sit back and relax (something I suspect you could not do ) and watch the China countryside slide by.

Don't fool yourself they can do it and the sooner those winds of change start blowing in earnest the better off the region will be. Where the profit is made is where the profit should stay. Even you should be able to grasp that. Griffins especially take note.

KIFIS

[Kaptin M]

...and you were able to ascertain all of that as a passenger seated in the cabin, KIFIS.

Poor, simplistic sucker you!!

BTW, I've got this nice, shiny, red car that I'm selling on behalf of my Grandmother - she only ever drove once a week, and the tyres are the originals......... :rolleyes:

[Alpha Leader]

KIFIS:

Please let's not have a "Spyplane III" thread :D

But just a gentle reminder that not one but two airliners from the motherland crashed very, very recently (plus one from what you would probably term the renegade province) - not the best of report cards to back up your claims.

[HotDog]

"From the point of view of a critical pilot...". Yes KIFIS you are so right. Critical of your flight deck crew, critical of your cabin crew.In fact critical of everybody except yourself. I guess that's why you rarely gave away a sector, nobody could do it as well as yourself.:rolleyes:

[CCA]

KIFIS,

May I ask what the weather was like during all of this and is this how you judge the quality of a safe airline.

Every departure on time, clean tidy aircraft , courteous cabin service, adequate food (better than Qantas or Delta), newspapers and magazines, crews well turned out with caps on, good English PA, positive emergency briefings. From the point of view of a critical pilot flying as passenger I found no fault. Smooth taxying, smooth rotations, good landings off stabilised approaches.

I'm afraid I look at stats, training/CRM and experience for a start.

[411A]

Hmmm, seems that the idea of..."us is better because we are expats, they are no good because they are locals...." has crept in here.
Training is the key. As many (if not most) of the local guys have gone to Boeing (or AirBus) for the required training...many now believe that the locals were given a "pass"??

KIFIS appears to notice the writing on the wall.....expats will find the pickings slim in the future in Asia... especially with the confrontational attitude many demonstrate.

[JMJ]

At a recent safety & performance briefing the discussion went onto the subject of engine out sids, the operators up north had no idea of what was going on, they have been using the standard EOSID for no obsticals ie R/W hdg to 1500 agl then level accelerate for all thier ops, thank god for realiable engines.
The crash in Korea what was he doing that far outside the circling area?

[KIFIS]

Kaptain M:
I spent a lifetime in the same camp that you are in and I understand your expatriate mentality only too well. Your use of the word "dog" is in character and explains almost all. What it does not explain though is why you are where you are. Perhaps I can help you here by asking you to commit to memory the following short poem that was penned by G.M. Glaskin who happens to be a countryman of yours. Quote:

" Mine is a ratbag country
Difficult to endure
A nation of con-men and barmaids
Immersed in their own manure "

G.M. Glaskin is an author and writer who was born in Australia. He abandoned the country to live in Europe and he seems to understand why he did it. This leads me to ask the question why did you leave ???

KIFIS

P.S. If you wish I can give you the name of G.M. Glaskin book that contains the above and you can read more about what he has to say.

[Alpha Leader]

KIFIS:

Your taking offence at the term "dog" is understandable at first glance, although "not fit for a dog" is a non-racist term to describe sub-standard conditions a human is (unreasonably) expected to endure. I don't know Kaptin M personally, but given the standards of his postings I do not assume he was trying to make any implicit or explicit connections with that infamous sign.

However, given what Glaskin writes about Australia, what attraction does the place hold for you?

[HotDog]

KIFIS, I have found a quote that fits you to a T. It is from one of your favourite authors to boot."Ah, well, I am a great and sublime fool. But then I am God's fool, and all His work must be contemplated with respect."-- Mark Twain No doubt you will parry my cheek with a suitable epithet. I look forward to your reply. HotDog.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Just love it.......anytime anyone mentions the accident/incident record of countries with clear issues in labour relations, culture, CRM, SOPs, promotional practices, maintenance etc etc....someone yells racist.

KIFIS I suggest you take a long hard look at the accident records of all the worlds airlines since say the 60's or early 70's and see if any trends pop out at you.

Garuda alone have crashed the equivelent of a whole airline worth of jets in the last 30 years.

Yes you'd be hard pressed finding an airline anywhere that hasn't had a hull loss in the last 30 years...but some places are a lot more prone than others

Chuck.

[HotDog]

Glueball "wide body queen", you sure move around a lot. Just to set matters straight, CX is still a British owned and controlled company in spite of operating out of Hong Kong S.A.R. China.

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

glaskin, like john pilger (secret country fame) had principle. they were not intimidated by people in power but stood up for what they believed in like us barley scabs and the many more to follow. we are the custodians of the new Cathay pacific whether you like it or not.

[6feetunder]

Not so sure I'd be proud of your beliefs.

[VR-HFX]

Hot Dog

You would not be suggesting that KIFIS belongs in the "Captains from Hell" thread are you??

He gave me a sector once...but from recall the weather was a bit on the nose.

:eek:

[HotDog]

High five HFX:D

[raitfaiter]

Hot Dog, CX is no longer British majority owned. A quickcheck will show that the Swire Group no longer control (openly at least) the mojority of CX shares. Other companies (mainly Chinese) comprise approx. 51% of stock.;)

[VR-HFX]

Raitfaiter

You don't have to have 51% to be in control. Just look at the shareholding of Swire Pacific. A shares and B shares mean that one can have less than 50% of the equity but more than 50% of the voting shares.

[411A]

Yes indeed, but still operate from....CHINA. Will make a big difference in the immediate future, you can be sure.
Certainly does not help the AOA "cause" one little bit.

[FlexibleResponse]

As at 31 Dec 2001

Interests of 10% or greater of issued shares:

1 John Swire & Sons - 45.85%

2 CITIC - 25.8%

Remainder held by interests of less than 10% (Joe Public?) - 28.35%

[ironbutt57]

Kaptin M is an '89er whose decision good or bad 13 years ago has left him a bitter and sad fellow..his posts reek of low self-esteem and bitterness....:D

[HotDog]

..his posts reek of low self-esteem and bitterness....

That actually, sums you up perfectly Ironbutt.:rolleyes:

[The Waco Kid]

What do Delta, United, USAir and American have in common.


They have all had more fatal accidents than Air China.


And they pay big bucks too.

[6feetunder]

Hey Waco, it's the rate of accidents, not the number. Check your facts. Having said that Air China has done remarkably well, can't say that for the rest of the Chinese airline industry though.

[Kaptin M]

"we are the custodians of the new Cathay pacific whether you like it or not."

Straight out of ("Prime Minister's" :rolleyes: ) Bob Dawk's ("Yes, Rupert and E.H. P. "Peter" , I'll suck your @0(k" ) letter to the Aussie pilots in 1989, TSI.
Only 22% of them swallowed that line of cr@p then, and if CX are willing to make a few Second officers "custodians" of their New One World Airline, then they DESERVE to go the same way as the "custodians" took them!
Into OBLIVION - FOREVER!

My humble suggestion to the new rercruits who have found themselves in the invidious position - into which you have placed yourselves - is to TRY to UNDERSTAND the path chosen by pilots who have FAR, FAR more experience with CX, with Hong Kong, with THIS airline management - and generally in this field of aviation - than you have yet to acquire.
That is not to say (that) you don't have something worthwile to offer - but as with ALL aviators, place your TRUST in those who have trodden the path before you.

Find common ground - as we so often do EVERYWHERE in the world, wherever we meet. {By Geez that gets up "their" noses!!}

Aviation is NOT the domain of the "Loner pilot" - we owe our longevity to the common sharing of "traps and illusions" that have cost many their lives in earlier days.
The "Press on regardless" is an anthema to all PROFESSIONAL pilots, but is often quoted as a "commitment to meeting schedules, and the company's obligations" by those who don't bear the full brunt of responsibility WHEN the SHTF.......splat!!

Go forward TOGETHER.
As with any relationship, "Sorry" always seems to be the hardest word (to say)!! (Phil Collins)

[had_enough]

Just a piece of info for those of you on the outside trying to figure out who is who. "honkers" is a term of endearment generally used by people who have lived there for quite some time

[GlueBall]

Hot Dog says: " Just to set matters straight, CX is still a British owned and operated company..."

OK, but B = China. Isn't that the prefix on all CX airplane registrations? Definitely less British than VR, eh? Get the drift?:eek:

[HotDog]

So by that line of reasoning, the Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation (HSBC) is also a Chinese company?:rolleyes:

[Alpha Leader]

If Swire's control over CX were indeed so strong, they would probably still be flying the Union Jack. Despite the separate VR registration for HK prior to 1997, the CX fleet did not display the HK flag but the Union Jack. Now there's no flag at all.

[HotDog]

So what? The flags started disappearing even before the handover. There is no requirement to display a flag of any sort, only the registration marks are mandatory.

[Alpha Leader]

Precisely, HD, no requirement, as you say, yet Swire - when the were in full control - still flew the Union Jack, although it was, strictly speaking, not the flag of registration.

[HotDog]

Yes, the flag was part of the livery at the time. The livery has been changed like the cabin crew uniforms. Normal procedure. Not every event in this world has deeper and sinister roots that your fertile imagination seems to dig up all the time.:(

[Alpha Leader]

Actually, HD, the flag started to come off even before the livery changed, so it was hardly an integral part of the then-design. In fact, the Swire Group logo was larger in size than the Union Jack.

And just in case you doubt my "fertile mind", please check out the various shots of Tristars and 747-200s at this site (http://www.airliners.net)
and you will see how the Union Jack disappeared on the older livery as 1997 came closer.

It was, if you were around at the time, a significant topic in Hong Kong then.

[VR-HFX]

Alf Alpha

I can assure you that HD knows better than most when the Union Jacks started coming off the tails.

From recall it started in the late 70's when the first leased L1011's from Eastern started operating with US regos.

I am not sure what your point is. It certainly wasn't a 'significant' topic as you suggest. More like idle chit chat over the froth in the aeroclub.

Maybe the boys in HAECO needed all the red, white and blue paint to make the Swire 'Penant of Poverty' bigger! OR perhaps someone upstairs thought it was better to take the Swastika of the bonnet of the Mercedes if you park in Tel Aviv OR maybe it just happened by mistake once and the beanies said let's save the paint.

Who really knows and more importantly, who really gives a rat's posterior.

[Alpha Leader]

HFX:

We're just trying to keep the facts straight here, that's all.

And you've just corroborated that the Union Jack was not an integral part of the pre-brushstroke livery. Thanks.

[mole]

Jeez Alf you really need to think you are right all the time. I would go and lie down for a while it might make you feel better. Then why don't you start on about why, and when, China Airlines changed their livery! It's about as relevant to the topic as all the other stuff you rant on about.

Sure your other name isn't 411A?

[Kubota]

hey alph, here's another:

what about the significance of the THICKNESS of the white stripes on the "cucumber sandwich" livery...

OOOH!

"the truth is out there" Mulder.

[Alpha Leader]

Hole Digger and Cheap Tractor:

Thanks for your contributions.

[Kaptin M]

"...if you were around at the time, a significant topic in Hong Kong then." :eek:

Gosh Al, that MUST have been a really RIVETTING topic of conversation!! :rolleyes:

(BTW, in case you hadn't noticed, your literary style and knowledge of ALL things, isn't terribly different from 411A's.)

[HotDog]

C'est deux Suisses qui se promènent.
Tout à coup, il y en a un qui se retourne et qui écrase un escargot.
Il m'énervait, celui-là !
Ca fait une demi-heure qu'il nous suivait

[Kubota]

Especially the "Cheap Tractor" dig. That's exclusively the domain of the S.O.G.

Ever wonder where the TriStar mega-carrier fleet is?

ARIZONA Desert. Getting harder to get "s" by the day.

[Alpha Leader]

Kaptin M:

Thanks, I am not even distantly related to 411A.

If you, Hole Digger and Cheap Tractor, would care to go work your way back through this thread, you would come to the point where a reasonably serious discussion commenced on the real or perceived control Swire have over CX.

The removal of the Union Jack from CX a/c prior to the brushstroke design was at the time widely interpreted as a gesture towards CITIC Pacific (and by extension to PR China), who had initially purchased a 12.5% stake in CX in 1991 and who had other joint business interests with Swire. In 1996, CITIC Pacific increased its shareholding in CX to 25%. In the pre-97 days, an application was filed by CNAC to start up a HK-based carrier that could have threatened Cathay's very existence unless PR China could be somehow accommodated within the existing CX structure. You will also note that the CNAC application has never been withdrawn.

If you have any notion of politics and business in China, you will know that even minor outward changes can signal major fundamental shifts.

It's a pity that you have no contributions of greater gravity to make in this respect, gentlemen.

[mole]

What a pompous bore!

[VR-HFX]

Alf

I am not sure how I can permeate the thick outer layer here but I will try one more time.

The sensitivities of of HK being part of China aside, Swire is still in charge at CX. CITIC is a significant shareholder and has comensurate influence. End of story.

The blighty flag on the tail is a red herring. It started being pulled down well before CITIC was on the block.

Let's move on....

[HotDog]

Don't bother mate, it's difficult to argue with a Swiss admiral.:rolleyes: