Airplane falls at Santos (Brazil) with presidential candidate aboard

[e1229]

It's being informed in many Brazilian sites now:

Pictures from the accident site (http://g1.globo.com/sp/santos-regiao/fotos/2014/08/veja-fotos-da-queda-de-aeronave-em-santos.html)

Terra news (http://noticias.terra.com.br/eleicoes/eduardo-campos-estava-a-bordo-de-jato-que-caiu-em-santos,cf5be562fffc7410VgnVCM10000098cceb0aRCRD.html)

In English: Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/13/us-brazil-crash-idUSKBN0GD1GY20140813)

The airplane was a Cessna 560XL, prefix PR-AFA.

It's said that it departed from Rio de Janeiro (SDU) headed to Santos/Guaruja. The pilot aborted a first landing attempt and, after some instants, a strong noise was heard.

[Severe Clear]

Brazil Candidate For President Eduardo Campos Dies In Jet Crash - Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jefffick/2014/08/13/brazil-candidate-for-president-eduardo-campos-dies-in-jet-crash/)

[_Phoenix_]

This is the first fatal crash for this type of jet, since first flight in 1996.

[costamaia]

Someone's mentioning it may have been a mid-air collision with an helicopter...

Cavok Brasil ? Aviação e Fotografia - BRASIL: Acidente aéreo que matou presidenciável poder ter sido colisão aérea (http://www.cavok.com.br/blog/?p=78400)

(in portuguese I'm afraid)

[e1229]

Nobody, so far, reported a missing helicopter, so I don't think it was a midair collision.

[NavyDude]

News are mentioning that the VR did not record the flight's conversation in the cockpit. I'm no aviation expert, but how is it possible ? Shut off intentionally ?

[5000 metres]

Apologies if posted elsewhere.

As reported by the BBC:

The black box recovered from the wreckage of the plane crash that killed Brazilian presidential candidate Eduardo Campos did not record his flight, Brazilian Air Force (FAB) says.

It said the audio recording FAB experts had analysed was not related to the flight that crashed on Wednesday.

A spokesman said they were trying to determine what the recording was.

BBC News - Brazil crash: Black box 'did not record Campos flight' (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-28812872)

[aterpster]

The whole thing has a strange aspect to it.

[marciovp]

Strange indeed. Bad weather, bad military airport with a mountain in one end. Only one way landing. After deciding going around the plane did not climb. Remained close to the groung trying to return to landing...

[DaveReidUK]

FAB analisa caixa-preta de acidente em Santos - Força Aérea Brasileira (http://www.fab.mil.br/noticias/mostra/19539/V%C3%8DDEO---FAB-analisa-caixa-preta-de-acidente-em-Santos)

[lomapaseo]

Black box failed on Brazil politician's doomed flight (http://news.msn.com/world/black-box-failed-on-brazil-politicians-doomed-flight)



Black box failed on Brazil politician's doomed flight

he two hours of recordings it contained were not related to Wednesday's doomed flight, according to the military branch in charge of the investigation into the crash.

"The reasons why the recording does not correspond to the flight will be studied during the investigation," the air force added, noting that the voice recording was not "crucial" to the probe seeking to determine the causes of the crash.

Campos, 49, died when his campaign jet slammed into houses in Santos city in bad weather, killing all seven people on board and setting buildings alight.

He had been running third in opinion polls for the October election.

A popular former governor of the northeastern state of Pernambuco, Campos was married with five children, the youngest just six months old.

His remains are due to be buried in the coming days in Recife, capital of Pernambuco. An open air mass is also planned.

[e1229]

Dotticom,

Could you elaborate a bit more?

So far this accident is kind of mysterious: it's said that CVR doesn't have conversations from the last flight, only from a previous one; and that the plane didn't had a FDR.

And the only audio available, so far, was from a Brazilian site (radarboxbrasil) that captured audio from the pilot-tower. But the conversation with the tower was a regular one, just stating that they missed the approach and would follow the procedure for that airport to try it again.

[RAD_ALT_ALIVE]

Here is a link to security video footage of it in the last second of flight; it's descending almost vertically, so maybe dotticom is on to something.

Brazilian politician's plane crash caught on video (http://media.theage.com.au/featured/brazilian-politicians-plane-crash-caught-on-video-5693811.html)

[aterpster]

I thought I read earlier this was not a "go around" as in "missed approach", rather an attempt to remain visual and "circle" for another landing attempt.

[porterhouse]

I don't think there was a chance to remain visual - weather was said to have been quite bad. It was a missed IFR approach and attempt to try another one.

[chuks]

Dotticom, could you expand a bit on that?

Flap limit speed for Flap 7 and 15 is 200 KIAS, and for Flap 35 it's 175 KIAS. Is it that there's this restriction for retraction of Flap 35 above 200 KIAS?

In terms of certification, that would be operation out of limits in any case, to be over 175 KIAS with Flap 35. Observing operating limits would prevent this uncontrollable pitch-down.

On the other hand, to exceed 200 KIAS with Flap 7 or 15 ... I doubt that the aircraft would be uncontrollable with flap retraction only slightly above that limit speed. I cannot see it being certificated with such flight characteristics.

So, what's the deal?

Anyway, from what the video shows, it looks more like the pilot let the aircraft get away from him, perhaps trying to stay visual on a circling approach. It's banked over rather steeply in the video, what looks like 90º.

[chuks]

Could you be a bit more specific? The problem appears when you retract the flaps from what setting between 205-225 KIAS? Is that from Flap 35?

Also, it's okay to retract the flaps either below 205 or above 225 KIAS? It's just within that 20-knot speed range that the problem with uncontrollable nose-down pitch occurs?

Is this in the book, or is it something you are told about and shown on the sim course for the 560XLS?

[Richard_Brazil]

The Citation's turbines have been examined by Pratt & Whitney in Sorocaba: Perícia descarta problemas nas turbinas do avião de Campos (http://noticias.portalvox.com/politica/2014/08/pericia-descarta-problemas-nas-turbinas-aviao-de-campos.html)

"The tests found that there were no signs of birds in the engines, or of collision with any other equipment. There was also no sign of fire in the engines".

The aeronautic chart for the instrument approach, "Echo Uno" in the tower recordings, is http://www.aisweb.aer.mil.br/download/?arquivo=14c6a57e-3de8-1030-95e7-72567f175e3a

The crash location indicates a tighter radius curve than that indicated on the chart.

Older news is that a NOTAM closed the airport after the accident, until the NDBs could be verified; they soon were, and the airport re-opened.

[Machinbird]

The crash location indicates a tighter radius curve than that indicated on the chart.This looks like a loss of control in the roll axis. The video showing the extremely steep descent also supports this.

Does the type have any history of flap jams on retraction?

[e1229]

Federal prosecutors (don't know a better word, in English, for this) are asking Brazilian Air force about the presence of VANT (non-tripulated airplanes, drones) on the area, if is there any missing, and so on.

It's based on pictures of the debris of the accident, where something that looks like the wheel of on e specific model is shown.

In portuguese: the classified request for information (http://blogs.ne10.uol.com.br/jamildo/2014/08/28/mpf-trabalha-com-hipotese-de-drone-da-aeronautica-ter-derrubado-aviao-de-eduardo-campos/),

some blog post about it (http://nilljunior.com.br/blog/irmao-de-campos-diz-que-veiculo-aereo-nao-tripulado-pode-ter-atingido-aviao-que-caiu-em-santos/)

A better picture of the probable drone (http://www.e-voo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=173996)

[DaveReidUK]

The Air Force have denied any involvement of a drone.

Piloto não reportou qualquer problema técnico, diz Saito - 16/08/2014 - Poder - Folha de S.Paulo (http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/poder/2014/08/1501408-piloto-nao-reportou-qualquer-problema-tecnico-diz-saito.shtml)

[taquechel]

Hello there,

sorry for bringing up this relatively old thread.

It just happened that yesterday I stumbled into an old news about the final report. It was published 17 months after the accident, and the final conclusion was pilots fault due to fatigue, pilot disorientation and bad weather.

Meanwhile, looking at the video footage clearly showing the airplane in a very steep rate of descent makes the CENIPA conclusion somewhat strange.

One thing that kept bugging me is that there was absolutely no mention in the report of the nose down issue of the Citation 560 when retracting flaps above 200 KIAS. In the wreckage the flaps were up, after an failed landing attempt, showing that the flaps have been retracted. They would not have tried to land without the flaps, thats just obvious. They must have been retracted during the turnaround, probably trying to reach a faster speed since they had a very special guest in the flight.

in the link is the news, that can be easily translated to english with google

G1 - Conjunto de fatores motivou queda do avião de Eduardo Campos, diz FAB - notícias em Política (http://g1.globo.com/politica/noticia/2016/01/cenipa-divulga-relatorio-final-sobre-acidente-que-matou-eduardo-campos.html)

and the final report

http://www.potter.net.br:8080/Public/media/media/rf/pt/RF_A_134CENIPA2014_PR-AFA.pdf


There were some similar incidents with the citation, one of the in Switerzland. If you look at the incident in switzerland, where the pilot could recover flight controls, the aircraft behavior is very similar.

I am not saying that the final report is wrong and the accident happened due to an airplane error. But, at the same time this flaps up issue was extensively known, the Co-pilot was very unexperienced

Nevertheless, isnt it very weird the final report not having a word about the flaps-up nose down behavior of the Citation?? Blaming entirely on the pilots and not saying a word about that makes no sense to me.


here is a brief part of the final report from the switerzland incident:

By exceeding the speed for the extended flaps, the set angle of the stabilizer produced a
heavy pitch-up force which had to be counteracted by the autopilot. The automatic trim
reached his “DOWN” end stop.
The retraction of the flaps and the simultaneous change of the angle of the stabilizer
resulted in a high pitch down moment.
The aircraft pitched immediately nose down at a high rate. The PF pushed the autopilot
disengage. Immediately he retarded the throttles and extended the speed brakes. During the
descent a speed of 304,7 KIAS was reached at 5000 ft QNE. The maximum speed at this
altitude is 260 KIAS. The flaps had been shortly extended again at 286 KIAS and retracted
again at 296 KIAS. In accordance with the information of the PF he was able with help of the
manual trim to recover the aircraft so that at 3288 ft QNE it was flying level again.

and the full link:

https://www2.sust.admin.ch/pdfs/AV-berichte//1807_e.pdf

what you guys experienced pilots can say about?