RAAF Hornets to Iraq - question

[tartare]

A genuine question.
The RAAF is sending C130s to Iraq - why not a strike element as well to assist with airstrikes?
I read the RAF Tonkas are already in Cyprus.
I assume it's the perceived politics of doing so, and not any inter-operability or technical limitations?
Possibly cost/ferry time?

[500N]

The two C-130's were already in the United Arab Emirates.
I read they just needed crews to get there.

I also think Aus doesn't like using our RAAF / RAAC hardware that much,
at least not for killing people or at least publicising it if it does get used.

We have had 10 years of war yet not much got used apart from Transports.

Just my HO.

[Buster Hyman]

Probably out of warranty now...

[rh200]

Budget emergency, cost of smart bombs:p. If we could get the Iraqi's to pay for them though:E

[Surplus]

We have had 10 years of war yet not much got used apart from Transports.

SRG would take issue with that.

[500N]

Yes, valid point.


Why do we buy all this expensive gear - Hornets, Super Hornets, Tigers which can all be used to support our troops
in battle yet we hardly seem to use them, especially when it was a great opportunity to put practice into reality.
Way back in the early 1990's we had an F-111 in direct support on a live fire ex at Woomera with the same unit
that was in Afghanistan for most if not all of the 10 years doing the exact support role they would do in Afghanistan
- dropping bombs.

Why always practice, practice, practice like Pitch Black and not use them ?

[Surplus]

500N,

Our politicians have a history of not wanting to commit our aircraft to offensive operations, this severely restricts their use to coalition forces and often results in flag waving missions. Until this position changes, the offensive aircraft will continue to only attend air shows and 'Operational' Exercises, whatever they are!

[500N]

Yes, agree, good explanation.

I see we are very quick to send half our fleet of C-17's (3) to Europe running 23 hours a day,
a MRTT, a med and surgical team and a force element (Plus of course the AFP).


A perfect flag waving exercise.

[Dash8driver1312]

To the OP, yes the Tornadoes are in Cyprus but they are not tasked with strike missions.

I recommend you read the briefings a little more closely.

They MAY get a strike tasking in the future but for the moment they are there as Intel assets.

And no, I don't believe that that makes sense.

[oldpinger]

Never be used- we couldn't afford the allowances for the Pilots!:E
What no 6 star hotels?:ok:

[500N]

They used to pull that old chestnut in the Army when things were tough.

Keep exercises less than the kick in point for bush time / away from family / field allowances - or whatever they were called.

[Captain Sand Dune]

Never be used- we couldn't afford the allowances for the Pilots!
What no 6 star hotels?
Joined the wrong service mate!:E

[Basil]

Joined the wrong service mate!
Yup! Been in the Army (TA) once; that's why I joined the RAF second time around :E

[oldpinger]

Bit of thread drift- but the worst offenders for ridiculous allowances were the RAN HS 748 EW Trainer crews whilst on major exercises- we were oof course just jealous- Tin City Darwin is perfectly suitable accom..:hmm:

[junior.VH-LFA]

Nothing wrong with Tin ****y mate.

Our fighter fleet is primarily a deterrent. Yes, they could be used overseas, but not at the risk of not providing a suitable force at home.

Iraq 2003 is an example. Hornets provided a suitable strike capability, intergrated with our international friends, but with enough aircraft and crew back at home to do what the RAAF is primarily and often forgotten that it is tasked with, defending Australia.

[500N]

Junior

Thanks, good answer ! Got to keep those Asylum seekers at bay ;) :O

It's a pity we can't spare a 4+ aircraft det on a rotation basis out of 95 mostly front line aircraft.

How much is operational experience worth ?

[cessnapete]

Defending AUS from whom? PNG, Singapore, Indonesia, NZ???

[Surplus]

IRAQ 2003 :-

Reports indicate that the No. 75 Squadron's activities were somewhat restricted in their military role compared to similarly equipped US forces. Australian aircraft were not permitted to operate in the "Baghdad SuperMEZ" (Missile Exclusion Zone) because of fears that the Hornet's electronic warfare systems were inadequate, though the report indicates that they were identical to American Hornets operating in this area. Furthermore, they were not permitted to conduct close air support missions in urban areas because of fears of collateral damage. These restrictions were in line with the rules of engagement set by the Australian Government, which were reportedly more restrictive than the rules governing the conduct of British and American forces.

Due to the more restrictive ROE and risk level imposed on them, I believe they came home early.

This isn't about having a 'go' at the fast jet guys, we were similarly limited, but could provide other assistance. If fast jets can't drop bombs, they are limited to shows of strength, as was the case in the latter part of the campaign.

[500N]

Didn't Aus also provide some FA-18's to take over security duties on the Island of Diego Garcia which released US aircraft for the war ?


Surplus
I think these restrictive ROE's are not good.

We had Aus pilots serving with the US squadrons - I think Matt Hall was one, we need to be on the same page in regards to ROE's in an integrated, multi coalition war. Just my HO.

[Lima Juliet]

Hey cobbers, quit your whinging! Don't forget that there are some Aussie people on exchange with nations that are overtly supporting past and present ops where there isn't an Aus footprint. You guys pull more than your weight in my opinion and when South East Asia goes t!ts up then guess who will be expected to lead (like you have been looking for a lost airliner)?

More than happy to have an Aussie as wingman any time!

LJ :ok:

[Surplus]

My personal opinion is that we should have the same ROEs as coalition partners if we take part in the same missions. If that is unacceptable, we should not take part and the politicians will have to put up with appearing less committed than other nations.

[TBM-Legend]

AN Australian aircraft has completed the first delivery of aid to northern Iraq.

DEFENCE Minister David Johnston confirmed the first mission, involving a RAAF C-130J transport aircraft flying out of the United Arab Emirates, had been successful.

[Trackmaster]

There is a very good argument to be made that the recent activities by C-17 crews and others in Europe was not a flag waving exercise.
There are many folks in Australia, the Netherlands, the UK and Malaysia who would argue the exercise had merit.

[Surplus]

There is a very good argument to be made that the recent activities by C-17 crews and others in Europe was not a flag waving exercise.
There are many folks in Australia, the Netherlands, the UK and Malaysia who would argue the exercise had merit.

Trackmaster, I whole heartedly agree, they aren't flag waving ops, they are carried out by consummate professionals, to a level that always elicits the highest praise from our fellow coalition partners.

Just like offensive ops would be, if our politicans allowed it.

[500N]

Track

I didn't mean flag waving in a derogatory sense, although reading back over my post it might have come across like that.

Then add everything Surplus said.

[Like This - Do That]

AN Australian aircraft has completed the first delivery of aid to northern Iraq.

So ... ummmm ... who's recovering the ADE and canopies for 39 ADE to clean and repack? :E

Sorry, couldn't resist. MY coat please André!

[bakseetblatherer]

Last time the Hornets were there:
http://iforce.co.nz/i/qm0c4rbr.0zu.jpg

[TBM-Legend]

The RAAF needs a new PR agent. Fox News/CNN only talk of USAF/RAF drops..

[TBM-Legend]

Defence minister announced RAAF to add two more C-17's [out to 8 ] and two more KC-30's [out to 7]. One KC-30 to be also VIP configured!:D

[dat581]

I wonder if they are getting a good deal from Boeing since the C-17 line is closing soon?

[ozbiggles]

One day hopefully you will all be allowed to read what the the fast jet guys actually did in Iraq when they were permitted to use their skill set.
Then you might come on here and make a few informed judgements.

[Surplus]

One day hopefully you will all be allowed to read what the the fast jet guys actually did in Iraq when they were permitted to use their skill set.
Then you might come on here and make a few informed judgements.

(my bold)

And that is exactly what we were talking about, when they were permitted to use their skill set. I don't know how many times it needs to be said, but this is not about questioning their ability or bravery, but it's about the reluctance of politicians to commit to offensive operations.

Some of us don't need to read about it, we were there too.

[ozbiggles]

So what part of the fighter ops wasn't conducting offensive air? They were not dropping bombs in an empty desert in 2003.
I agree it doesn't happen much, but it was as offensive as it gets without carpet bombing cities and it was authorised by the politicians.
I add this to counter this thread of it never happens because the politicians won't let it.
Well it happened and they did.

[500N]

Oz

I think most know what went on back then and have no problem with it
but that still leaves Afghanistan.

And OK, let's say the FA-18's are needed to defend Aus even if Afghanistan was a low threat environment
to use our aircraft, that still leaves the Tigers to support Aussie troops.


BTW, the fact that what did occur was kept quite well hidden says a lot about the way Pollies want think perceived.
I can understand not releasing target imagery but not much else was made public. It's almost like they don't want people to know they were waging war.

[tartare]

So... am I mistaken in thinking that I read somewhere that there were RAAF Pigs deployed to Afghanistan?
I had thought they were, on something that was at the time not widely discussed.
But then I may be wrong.

[ozbiggles]

The info is around but, yes I guess we won't see it released until this conflict is over. So maybe a hundred years or so...
I think a lot of the reason we didn't see to much FJ stiff from Oz in the sandpit is there just isn't that much for them to hit that is FJ suitable. I agree the Tiger would be an ideal asset, but I don't think it was ready for us in the timeframe.

[cessnapete]

Ozbiggles.

Who are the F18s defending Aus from, NZ?

[dat581]

Perhaps you should look in the other direction...

[ozbiggles]

I didn't know there was anyone left from the 1930s Cessnapete. I'm sure that's the foresight that had us sending our airmen to their deaths in Wirraways up against Zeros.
I will take you all the way back to the late 90s, a little place called Timor that could have gone either way.
There is a little saying don't bring a knife to a gunfight, I'm not sure your argument will even count as the sheath.
But please if you have an argument for Australia not having a fast jet fleet, let's hear it.

[500N]

Oz

Do you really think indo would have taken it further ?

Even if they had wanted to ?

[ozbiggles]

Who knows

And isn't that the point?

[500N]

wish

That was one reason.


I think some in the Indo mil might have liked to but overall I think they
know it would not have ended well for them.

Jim Molan had a few interesting things to say in his book about Indo and the East Timor situation,
having been Army Attache and Defence Attache in Indonesia.

[Buster Hyman]

Not to mention the US task force loitering in the area...you know, real casual like....

[TBM-Legend]

Mission creep:

Amazing stuff here>>
"RAAF Hornets in Iraq" 2003 becomes Timor!:rolleyes:

[junior.VH-LFA]

RAAF jets and Army SAS ready to wage war on ISIS in Iraq (http://www.news.com.au/national/raaf-jets-and-army-sas-ready-to-wage-war-on-isis-in-iraq/story-fncynjr2-1227036362169)

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

Just what we need - another Coalition thought-bubble slipped to a friendly journalist to gauge public reaction!

SO many things wrong with this article...

The RAAF flies 24 of the more advanced Boeing Super Hornet fighters that are fitted with the latest antimissile systems. These include 12 so-called ‘Growler’ aircraft that can take out enemy radars and other electronic installations.
Nope - the Growlers are still at least three years away

[junior.VH-LFA]

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!

:E

I've even read in some corners people screaming that we should bring the Pig back.... I'm not even going to get started on that front.

[500N]

Nope - the Growlers are still at least three years awayI was thinking of the same thing.

I always remember the press release, "wired for, not with" !


"I've even read in some corners people screaming that we should bring the Pig back...."

What is the pig going to do that the Super can't ?

[junior.VH-LFA]

Cost more money? :E

[Buster Hyman]

What is the pig going to do that the Super can't ? Dump n Burn. :ok:

http://www.pacificaviationmuseum.org/images/uploads/blog/f111c/image027.jpg

[Surplus]

RAAF jets and Army SAS ready to wage war on ISIS in Iraq

Of course they are, now we just need the political will.

[tartare]

Well boys (and girls) flying the pointy stuff - you might just get your wish - breaking in Oz this arvo.

"The officials, who asked not to be named discussing sensitive internal deliberations, said they expected that Britain and Australia would be willing to join the United States in an air campaign."

Read more: US campaigns to enlist Australia and other allies to attack Islamic State in Syria (http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-campaigns-to-enlist-australia-and-other-allies-to-attack-islamic-state-in-syria-20140827-1091d0.html#ixzz3BZCy1DFa)

...and Buster that is shock and awe...!

[Hempy]

What is the pig going to do that the Super can't ?

TFR set to 'hard' and 100", they are gone before you know they've been there....except for the destruction.

[500N]

The wording in the media certainly looks like they are softening up the public
For an announcement that it will happen..

Syria is a turn up for the books.

[tartare]

Ex Chief of RAAF has just been on ABC.
Very good interview and spoke of Syria being valuable experience for our aircrew - Super and Classic Hornets being well up to the job.
Yes - looking increasingly likely.

[500N]

Why are the Classics OK this time but not before ?

Have they now got upgraded defense systems ?

[Buster Hyman]

Why are the Classics OK this time but not before ?
Coz we finished reading the instructions for the Supers?

[junior.VH-LFA]

What HUG are they up to now?

I bet there are some very interested aircrew kicking around ACG right now :E

[Hangarshuffle]

Used to love to watch and listen to the F-111 when the Americans flew them over the UK in the 1980's.
Australia will never drop a bomb abroad. Far too politically risky for the Government. I mean suppose one was shot down and the aircrew captured and paraded and then murdered? There would be an outcry so loud you would hear it in London. Lose your place in power because of the result of a crazy war far away? Don't think so now.

[BBadanov]

Australia will never drop a bomb abroad. Far too politically risky for the Government.


Rubbish. Classics dropped bombs in GW2 in 2003. I think Super Hornets will go this time, but I do not support this intervention. Let the Gulf States do it.

[rh200]

but I do not support this intervention. Let the Gulf States do it.

Regardless of your support for or against the Iraqi intervention in the first place, the words, we help create the situation we help fix it comes to mind.

I'm firmly in the position that Iraqi was doing fine till we pulled out. That said we helped them create the fledgling democracy and army not yet capable of defending themselves.

Combine that with the politics of withdrawing, then we have a hand in it. The gulf states are nowhere near strong enogh to deal with the situation by themselves without potentially becoming unstable themselves.

All those states can be considered metastable systems.

[Groaner]

Complete ignorance here, so please go easy.

I note that the press conference stated that the F14s are the exact same aircraft used on US carriers.

Is flying Oz Hornets off US carriers realistic? Has there been landing practice on marked-off runway sections with arrestors, full catapult-assisted takeoffs? Has there been any actual Oz carrier operation?

[500N]

I think they actually said the FA-18 Super Hornets were the same as what is flown from US Carriers. That's what I heard.

I'll let others answer the rest.

[Surplus]

Senator Johnston said there would need to be a specific invitation from Iraq and Australia would want to settle rules of engagement.

The same ROE's as America, or so restrictive that they can't be used for what they are needed for?

Time will tell.

[500N]

or so restrictive that they can't be used for what they are needed for?

That !

Just because that seems to be the way we operate now.

[tartare]

Groaner,
ex RAAF head was asked this on 7:30 last night.
"We don't fly off carriers in the RAAF," he wryly said, but then explained that there are lots of nations nearby who have airfields that they have flown from.

[LT Selfridge]

1. The US doesn't need any RAAF assistance.

2. US benefits from Australian participation as it can sell the job as an 'Allied' effort.

3. Australia benefits in receiving the good gear from the gun runners and all the other benefits of hanging around with the school bully.

4. ROE more restrictive since US actions are arguably illegal.

[rh200]

1) true
2) true
3) true even if using an emotive term.
4) Not illegal if invited by the Iraqi government. Syria is a different ball game though.

[500N]

3) We get the good gear anyway, virtually anything asked for !


Syria IS going to be interesting !

Trade off - US supports the leader and he'll let them in to crush ISIS.

What is more interesting is what support the US gets from Arab nations, He's let them down
so many times, no wonder they took action by themselves.

[tartare]

Compared to the other bullies - I think I'll stick with this one.
And I kinda like their guns too.

[Captain Sand Dune]

What is more interesting is what support the US gets from Arab nations, He's let them down
so many times, no wonder they took action by themselves.
So why don't they sort their own sh*t out..............oh, that's right - because they can't!!:mad:
F*ck 'em, I say. Let 'em wipe each other out, then negotiate with the winners for the oil......which is the only reason we speak to them to start with.

[500N]

Abbott seems to be prepping the public for a press release and /
or sounding them out.

[OTR1]

Tartare at #68 wrote

ex RAAF head was asked this on 7:30 last night.
"We don't fly off carriers in the RAAF,"

The last Australian to launch from a carrier for a sortie in hostile skies (Iraq) was CO 800 NAS, in HMS Invincible, in 1999, driving an FA2.

He was one the RAN Skyhawk drivers who sought greener pastures in Blighty after being given the heave-ho in '83.

[TBM-Legend]

Today's Australian mentioned E-7A Wedgetails to Iraq as well as Super Hornets, "transports" and SAS.

RAAF C-130J's are in the Gulf now and have been for ages.

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2014/08/31/06/25/australia-arms-airlift-for-kurds-in-iraq

[TBM-Legend]

RAAF F/A-18F Super Hornets x 6 completed 2900 combat hours, over 400 missions with 100% mission serviceability over 7 months. [source RAAF release] They are now replaced by six F/A-18A's from No 75 Sqn. Here's hoping they do as well.

[Lonewolf_50]

RAAF F/A-18F Super Hornets x 6 completed 2900 combat hours, over 400 missions with 100% mission serviceability over 7 months. [source RAAF release] They are now replaced by six F/A-18A's from No 75 Sqn. Here's hoping they do as well.
Hornets putting their stings into the ISIS ruffians: a good news story regardless of vintage. :ok:

[West Coast]

RAAF F/A-18F Super Hornets x 6 completed 2900 combat hours, over 400 missions with 100% mission serviceability over 7 months

100%? Seems awfully high. Wonder what broke bits weren't considered mission essential equipment to allow continued ops, or how many spares were available on a daily basis.

[BBadanov]

100%? Seems awfully high. Wonder what broke bits weren't considered mission essential equipment to allow continued ops, or how many spares were available on a daily basis.


Enough spare aircraft - so that what couldn't be fixed on start-up just meant crew swapped aircraft.
100% tasked take-offs achieved...which probably translates into achieving 100% of tasked missions.

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

BB, correct


Most days only 2 or 4 jets were tasked, so with a deployment of 6, it wasn't uncommon for a spare to be generated as a backup. The "100% mission serviceability" should probably read "mission availability".