Atlas Air preparing to Strike

[partyreptile]

News: On friday last, Atlas Air was informed by the federal mediator that in their opinion, further mediation was pointless, and so arbitration was offered to both parties. If either party turns down the offer of arbitration, a 30 day "cooling off" period would begin, followed by a release to "self help" (read: Strike). Look for a cooling off to begin within the next 10 days, to be followed by a strike of all the Mainline pilots. Let the fun begin

[MidnightSpecial]

Does this affect the Polar pilots? A friend of mine works for Polar. Are they also under a cooling off period?

MidnightSpecial

[411A]

NO, only the idiots at Atlas.
Some NEVER learn....:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[non sched]

411A
So the "idiots" at Atlas should just lie prone and let the mgt types put tire tracks on their forehead on the way out of town with the jobs? Hmm. Spoken like a mgt type. I guess a 50% pay cut and no time off would fit your definition of a settlement? :mad:

[411A]

Certainly not, non sched...but the time to strike is when business is good....not when it stinks. Seems to me that the pilots at Atlas are playing right into managements hands.

[GlueBall]

There are no desperate situations, only desperate people. :(

[Intruder]

When business is "bad" is when the company can least afford another disruption...

[Huck]

The only date the Atlas pilots chose was the date they began negotiations, about 3 years ago. The timeline that followed was out of their hands. They certainly wanted to bring this to a head before the bottom fell out of the ACMI market. The NMB is driving the bus.

[raitfaiter]

411a, if business is soooo bad, why is CX bringing all its furloughed (?) freighters back on line? Why has AHK bought/leased all those DHL A300s? Why have KLM ordered 3 new -400Fs? Why is a certain odious character attempting to set up a trash hauling airline from the Philippines using outdated and outmoded aircraft......:rolleyes:

[74world]

"Mainline Atlas will strike"...... finally some good news!!!!!

Guys be prepared for new positions coming up with Atlas!!!!

Those clowns don't realise that Atlas does NOT need 800 pilots in the States as 90% of their customers are Non-American airlines

Let hope that management will stand strong and start other companies worldwide........

[non sched]

74World= Just another scab!

[74world]

non sched= just another clown

[ironbutt57]

Far be it from me to be a union supporter, but 74 world seems to be happy to benefit from the woes of the mainline atlas pilots who worked hard to build the company....careful there 74world, because the same thing could happen to you..if a company is quite willing to bag all it's pilots and replace them with cheaper...why wouldn't they turn around and do it to you....Atlas job...as a scab....boy what a future you have buddy...

[partyreptile]

74world, you sound a lot like one of the folks at AACS, nice batch of folks. Looks like they (you?) will soon be required to make a choice, stand up and support your union brethern, or cross the line and pin on that SCAB button, choice is yours mate. I can say that everyone will be watching, including the FAA, which takes a great interest in operations during strike actions, just to make sure no corners are cut. So, 30 days and counting.

[74world]

Partyreptile, the choice has already been made.....

Also the FAA doesn't give a **** about who flys!!!!!

The guys from mainline have asked for the last 2 years for AACS and GSS to be shut down, don't be surprise if they don't get any support now from those pilots for their strike!!!

I can't wait for June 28th......................................................

[Dan Winterland]

I can understand the objection to AACS, but lets look at the objection to GSS. GSS, a European registered air operator using European registered aircraft and pilots with European licenses who have the right to live and work in Europe, flying the ACMI contract for one of Europe's largest airlines. Sounds pretty fair to me! Or do US pilots want a bigger slice of the pie?

[Intruder]

The objection is that "European ownership" and "European control" of GSS are shams (a more politically correct term I've heard in relation to this is "legal fiction"). Atlas came up with the idea. An Atlas vice-president set up the original "UK" company ("Nouvelle Ligne" or something like that) whose name was changed to GSS. Atlas shopped around for a UK partner to become the "principal investor," finding John Porter after at least one other backed out late in the game. Atlas will reap the income of dry-leasing the airplanes to GSS off the top, before risking any market loss (that will be shared 51% by John Porter's group). Anyone who believes that anyone other than Atlas will be calling the shots at GSS has been drinking some funny kool-aid.

GSS is nothing more than Atlas management's plan to continue to line their pockets, regardless of who is hired at pauper's wages or who is furloughed or "made redundant" or who else loses their shirts. Those who are advocates of "UK" or "European" based companies doing UK or European work should object, too.

[yankeeclipper747]

Which side declined the profferred arbitration?

Any talks scheduled during the cooling off period?

Just the usual 'end game' of negotiations or the start of the next phase of jobs being exported?

[Hogg]

Hi guys, with the risk of looking stupid or being called thick!!:)

Ive read and tried to follow whats going on in these companies with interest, but I still dont really understand the situation and various relationships of these companies etc etc:confused:


If someone has the time can u pleeezzeee condense the situ so i can understand for myself.


Thanks Dudes:p

Hogg

[Huck]

Atlas Holdings is the plantation owner. Atlas, Polar and AACS all work side by side on the plantation. Since U.S. airlines are strictly controlled as to when they can strike by the NMB (the government), Atlas (only) is shortly going to be free to strike. The fear is that the work will just be shifted over to the other plantation workers, who (I'm afraid) will not be able legally to refuse the work.

I will add, just for a glimmer of hope, that US airlines generally have to go through the entire 30 day cooling off period before signing a contract. Maybe it's to ensure the best possible deal; maybe it's just to maximize the lawyers' fees....

[Hogg]

Thanks Huck

Hogg

[partyreptile]

Kids'
contrary to popular misconception the eu pilots of AACS (gss is just a subset of aacs, so they are not stand-alone, they are all FAA certificated and atlas trained and paid) are cheaper than mainline, that is not correct, in fact AACS pilots are paid substancially MORE than Atlas Mainline pilots, and enjoy a large number of perks and so on that are denied the mainline pilots, not to mention being shielded from being made 'redundant' as has become the fate of over 200 of their far more senior mainline crewmembers. AACS is a sham organization, and GSS is a front for Atlas, pure and simple. The issue has never been eu vs. us, it has always been mgt. vs labor, and I see shortly that the folks at AACS will be in the position of taking sides in that arguement in a very public manner come the first week in July. Remember folks, the people who would cross a picket line to fly struck cargo/airplanes at Atlas would do the same thing to all the carriers in the eu, scabs have no loyalty wherever they come from.

[Dan Winterland]

Partyreptile,

Contrary to your misconception, the GSS pilots will not be FAA licenced or trained by necessity, only by co-incidence. GSS was set up in response to the CAA's inistance (thanks to the continous and persistant pressure from BALPA), due to British Airways long term 'flagging out' of their World Cargo contract to Atlas. GSS pilots will have to have JAA licenses regardless of any FAA licences they may hold, and the rgiht to live and work in the EEC - just as GSS has to be 51% EU owned.

You can argue that this situation is a sham and that GSS is just another fron to AACS or Atlas, but these are the facts.

[C Montgomery Burns]

Actually, Dan Winterland, BALPA couldn't give a monkeys about flagging out - especially when the client is BA. It was the IPA that managed to get things on a fairer footing.

It's great to see Brit pilots flying for BA rather than Yank ones nicking their jobs. Lets hope the same thing happens at AZ, EK, AF, TNT etc.

[Dan Winterland]

Actually, you're right. I used to be a member of both and now remeber it was IPA that got the result. I left IPA and retained my BALPA membership. F#*k knows why?

[brokepilot]

Hang in PartyReptile,
In the past , and in the future the SCABS will get it in the end.
I can't wait. they can all go and work in the big bad EU.
the only reason we have 65000 ALPA members in the U.S.A is because we can!!

[DownIn3Green]

Broke...

A couple of my friends just got hired over at Southern...not a great job by any means, but not a lateral move when one considers they're moving from a narrow body without a type, to a wide body with the type rating paid for...

What would you call them if they end up with some of Atlas' contracts?

Hopefully you won't end up like your name...Broke...but then again, you have your 65,000 brothers to hit up for a handout if it comes to that...

[brokepilot]

I once have worked at Southern Air Transport. Big Bad Wide Body,,,, narrow body Pay! . I think you missed the point . It was a ref to Atlas Alpa Contract . and just support for PartyReptile dude . Hey good for your friends , not sure what your getting at but Southern flying Cargo has nothing to do with with Provisions of title II of the Railway Labor Act . so to your question , your friends with thier new job is just what it is , Dudes flying Boxes during really bad hours to really bad parts of the world for really really really BAD Pay!
Later

[GTI 001]

Dan Winterland,

Your saying that GSS is not Atlas......

Who paid for your type rating, licence (FAA initialy)????
Where is your head office or should I say which office space do you share?????
Are you flying a new contract or was it an Atlas Air contract????

I have the answers to the above questions if you don't, please email me......




;)

[TowerDog]

Incidently the "new" Souther Air's pay scale and conditions of employment is a true copy of Atlas's.

Got a job offer from Southern Air September 2000, but turned it down due to lack of adult compensation.
The chief pilot said he understood.

Hope there will be no strike over at Atlas, but can understand why the drivers are ticked off.

Is there any contact between the pilot groups of Atlas and AACS?
As in "What if" there is a strike.
Would any of the AACS guys be loyal and call in sick, or simply refuse to fly struck freight?

Where is the Polar guys in all this? Is there anything in Polar's ALPA contract about flying for carriers on strike?

Good luck...

[CR2]

Perhaps slightly off topic. I hear 5Y rented a VIP chalet & provided hospitality at the YMX F1 Grand Prix for a staggering amount of money ie $ 6 figures (and the first number wasn't a 1 or a 2...).

[Hogg]

Stick to the topic ha ha!



Did ya have a nice time?

Another Victory...............YES:cool:

[CR2]

Watch it or I'll ban ya!

How was work? All went fine in MUC, got in and out before Atlas did in this morning!

Anyway, as you say, back to the topic...http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/Gif/bartskate2.gif

[Dan Winterland]

GTI 001,

I don't think I need to e-mail you as I know the answers to your questions. They are.....

1. Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd / Me.
2. Crawley, West Suusex, UK.
3. No contracts, just the same old Virgin routes.

But I know what you're trying to say. However, in the eyes of a Brit outsider - with regards to your other comments, the situation appears as such:

1. Technically GSS is not Atlas. It is majority owned by a EU company.

2. GSS will be flying the ACMI contract that Atlas flew for the British national airline. Atlas will soon have to stop flying that contract on the demands of the UK CAA. GSS was created to fly that one contract. If GSS didn't fly it, someone else would. But not Atlas in it's present form - i.e. a non EU operation.

These are of course my own assumptions, but heavily based on the facts.

[747400CA]

Heard a discussion among several very committed Atlas pilots in ANC last week re: the upcoming strike - specifically, whether or not the Atlas / AACS pilots based at STN would fly during the strike.

The gist of it was that the Atlas 'mainline' pilots regard their AACS cousins as potential 'scabs'; and that those who crossed the line and flew would be hounded forever more...

As an interested and well-intentioned outsider, I introduced myself and asked the following question:

- Did not the STN-based pilots each have an individual employment contracts not with Atlas but with the wholly-owned subsidiary company? and

- With no union representation at the STN base and no provisions in their individual contracts to withhold their services in support of their 'mainline' cousins, would not the STN pilots who did support the strike likely forfeit their jobs with no hope of going back to work? and

- Would the 'mainline' pilots protect those AACS pilots who stayed out in sympathy by refraining from a 'back to work' agreement ending the strike until the AACS jobs were restored (as the UAL pilots did for the '570' pre-hires in the mid-eighties)?

To my surprise, no one at the table could offer an informed response.

I further asked if their was sufficient excess capacity at Polar to generate a revenue stream that would see the company through an extended strike, to which the group responded "the Polar guys won't screw us".

I then went on to ask "what if Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings [the parent corporation to Polar, Atlas, and AACS] sells, and they (sympathetic Polar pilots), are assigned 'extra section' flights under their own call sign - in other words, not 'struck work')"?

Would not Polar pilots who withhold their services from their own company in sympathy to the Atlas pilots

(a) be conducting an illegal job action since they have not been released by the National Mediation Board to pursue self help? and

(b) expose ALPA to potential legal action and penalty in the same fashion as the AA pilots after their illegal 'sickout' some years ago? and

(c) expose Polar pilots individually to potential discipline or termination in similar fashion to AACS pilots who withheld their services?

Clearly I had 'crossed a line' (pun intended) with such questions, for the response that came back was "Whose side are you on?"

Regretting having become involved in the conversation in the first place, I expressed my sympathy for their plight and my support for their cause and before wishing them well and saying goodbye.

As I left the encounter, I could not help but feel

- the suspicion that the implications of a full-on strike (as opposed to a slowdown or sporadic interruption of services) may not have yet been communicated among their group; and

- the fear that these brave men and women might 'fight the good fight' only to go down the same road as the Eastern pilots 13 years ago...

"...we won the battle but lost the war..."

Someone please say it won't be so.

[GTI 001]

B747 400 CA,

Pilots in 'mainline' Atlas lost their jobs 2 years ago when AACS was created....

Who are they fighting against????? Atlas Air?????
Atlas air does not own any assets, it's only a business name.:D

Atlas air Holdings owns everything, time will tell but 'mainline' is dead......;)

July will be a very busy month......can't wait!!!!:cool:

[GlueBall]

No doubt, if the mainlanders walk then the AACS boys will become very busy. And in case of a sustained work stoppage, there'll be vacancies to fill at AACS. Especially left seat vacancies which would provide irresistible opportunities for prospective mainlander scabs.

Something was learned from the group dynamics of the ComAir pilots: A strike which had lasted several months without producing one (non management) scab! It was the "tightest" pilot group on record. Will the Atlas pilots be this strong and determined?

There are no desperate situations, only desperate people.

:(

[non sched]

Atlas Air is actively shopping their 5 new 747's around to other airlines. Seems Atlas has no work for them and wants another airline to take delivery. What are the chances some other carrier can find a use for them though if Atlas can't place them?:(

[ironbutt57]

GTI001...enjoy your new found windfall....remember the folks who made it all possible....the very atlas mainline crew who made it all possible...so enjoy.....live by the sword....die by the sword.....cheerio:confused: :confused: :confused:

[411A]

Whatever the outcome, it ain't gonna be pretty, and sure puts the guys at Polar between a rock and a hard place.

[Avius]

Ironbutt57,

what do you mean, by "remember those guys who made it all possible" ?? I remember, that in 1998 Cargolux Pilots did NOT go to the barricades, when Atlas Air (Mainline) was contracted with their first 747-400F (and more followed) to fly Cargolux Routes, blocking potential job-growth at Cargolux while helping to kickstart Atlas' major business in the years to come, especially between US and Europe. At that time, no Atlas Air Mainline Pilot was concerned about taking jobs away from European Pilots, were they?

One should keep things in perspective. Then, it was a business-decision by the European Carrier Cargolux, to flag out some European jobs to the US. Today, it is yet another business decision, this time by Atlas' management to flag out some jobs back to European bases. That is, what business is about. And for us pilots it means "you get a little, you give a little".

Make no mistake, I feel for the Atlas Mainline Pilots and I got to know quite a few of them over the years. Most of them are hard working and pleasant people and they deserve their share, but there are also others who are doing a great job elsewhere.

Cheers

[74world]

Mainline Atlas pilots have and are still stealing jobs from:

English, Dutch, French, german, Chinese, Malay, Korean, Belgium pilots, south Americans...... ...it's time for a change!!!!!!
:mad:

So what if other companies are going to follow their foot steps.....good luck to them!!!!

Also who cares about the stupid "ban" if any, all of us don't or can't work in the States anyway.........
:D

Mainline guys, you'd better start sending resume!!!!!!

[DownIn3Green]

74 World...

That's pretty harsh, however true it may be...

[vmommo]

Atlas pilots!

Sink the ship, until they give you a fair contract. If they don't, they don't deserve to exist.

You will win!!!!

[411A]

On a slightly lighter note, learned today that Southern Air is looking for 4 more aeroplanes....seems business may just pick up... at Atlas' expense perhaps?

[non sched]

411A
Those could be some of the planes Atlas is supposed to take delivery of later this year. Atlas is actively trying to get other carriers to take up those leases as they can't use them.

[DownIn3Green]

I don't have any bone to pick with the Atlas pilots, but I'm afraid the handwriting is on the wall:

Strike and your job will most likely be history.

Unlike the Comair strike, Atlas seems to have plenty of "back-up" through various means to support the basic operation in the event of a strike.

My thought of the day for Atlas mainline is this:

Do you guys notice how many people on this forum are encouraging you to walk off your job for the "good of all of us'?

ALPA has never (with the exception of one of their recent former Presidents [RB]) provided priority hiring or even interviews to the majority of the striking pilots.

Don't believe me, just look up some of the old EAL or PAA guys.

Don't be fooled...Polar will fly your cargo in their aircraft, as will the new Southern, NWA Cargo, Kalitta, Gemeni and many others.

Good luck and be careful...the grass is not so green out here...

[Beaver Driver]

747400CA

I can answer some of those questions

--Did not the STN-based pilots each have an individual employment contracts not with Atlas but with the wholly-owned subsidiary company?

True but they are flying ATLAS aircraft and Atlas generated freight as AACS has no aircraft, contracts, or even sales department of it's own.

- With no union representation at the STN base and no provisions in their individual contracts to withhold their services in support of their 'mainline' cousins, would not the STN pilots who did support the strike likely forfeit their jobs with no hope of going back to work?

Also most likey true. However, they were all told numerous times that this was likely to happen. Now that they have put themselves in this situation they must make the decision.


- Would the 'mainline' pilots protect those AACS pilots who stayed out in sympathy by refraining from a 'back to work' agreement ending the strike until the AACS jobs were restored (as the UAL pilots did for the '570' pre-hires in the mid-eighties)?

Of course.


I further asked if their was sufficient excess capacity at Polar to generate a revenue stream that would see the company through an extended strike, to which the group responded "the Polar guys won't screw us".

Polar guys won't screw us if they know they are flying Atlas generated freight or using an Atlas call sign. In any case there is not currently sufficient capacity at Polar to take all of Atlas flights.

I then went on to ask "what if Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings [the parent corporation to Polar, Atlas, and AACS] sells, and they (sympathetic Polar pilots), are assigned 'extra section' flights under their own call sign - in other words, not 'struck work')"?

This is something that Atlas will try to do and is taken right out of the Lorenzo Playbook. There will be no recriminations from mainline pilots if the Polar guys are hoodwinked into this.....volunteering to work days off to do so, however, is another matter.

Would not Polar pilots who withhold their services from their own company in sympathy to the Atlas pilots

(a) be conducting an illegal job action since they have not been released by the National Mediation Board to pursue self help?


(b) expose ALPA to potential legal action and penalty in the same fashion as the AA pilots after their illegal 'sickout' some years ago?


(c) expose Polar pilots individually to potential discipline or termination in similar fashion to AACS pilots who withheld their services?

No their contract should have a clause that will protect them individually and ALPA if they should decide not to cross any picket line, or fly freight that is obviously struck work.

[SIDMANJED]

RESEARCH ALERT-JP Morgan cuts Atlas Air to 'market underperform'
June 17, 2002 12:00:00 PM ET


NEW YORK, June 17 (Reuters) - J.P. Morgan said it cut its investment rating on Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings Inc. (CGO) to "market underperform'' from "market perform'' based on poor earnings and contract visibility and uncertainty over discussions with its pilots.

Analysts Gregory Burns and Brannon Cook said they expect excess airfreight capacity to prevent Atlas Air from fully participating in a recovery of freight volumes.

They increased their 2002 loss forecast to $13.5 million from $1.8 million and now expect a second-quarter loss of 23 cents a share. They said they reduced their earnings estimates to a per-share loss of 35 cents in 2002, down from a previous estimate of a 5-cent loss, and a profit of 35 cents in 2003, down from a previous outlook for 50 cents.

They estimated Atlas Air's cash burn at $14.1 million by year-end. In early trade, the stock was off $2.05 or 33.88 percent to $4.00 per share. REUTERS

© 2002 Reuters

[Ignition Override]

First, just some naiive impressions of the freight industry. A few years ago while going through Memphis, I noticed that Fred Smith actually had either Polar or Gemini 747s etc parked on his ramp. This was a first for me to see in a sea of mostly purple paint, and it was a very graphic tactic against his pilots, with some aircraft paint jobs that stood out in stark contrast to the purple tails! This was during protracted contract negotiations. He claimed that he was ready to shift all of their flying to other carriers, permanently. If he was serious, I would hate to think of the possible ruthlessness which smaller companies might be capable of, especially those which have not made such an effort (in general) to build good morale.

That was a complex situationat FEDEX, with a very fragmented pilot group. Years before, during the first attempt to organize, most seemed to feel that they were "cockpit white-collar middle mgmt" instead of "cockpit/blue collar labor". No pun intended about the light blue uniform shirts. Of course, having originally tried to staple the Flying Tiger pilot group (727s, DC-8s, 747s) at the bottom of the FEDEX pilot list, this said a lot in itself, "Flightcrew Handbook" language or not. "But Fred promised us..."

As it turned out, Fred Smith, despite having indicated to the media (at least my impression) that his pilots would or should have a competitive contract, this is not what Fred ultimately agreed to-UPS has a much better contract, from what FEDEX pilots told me. Maybe the UPS contract was settled after that first FEDEX pilot contract.

I hope you guys at Atlas end up with a very competitive contract, but for the sakes of your careers, be very careful. From what I've read over the last few years, cargo appears to more transferrable than any passenger flying.

I would hate to see you guys starting over again working for a certain charter cargo airline in Michigan...

Let's hope your leadership avoids the trap of underestimating the enemy or the terrain. US airline history has constantly shown that under a GOP Executive branch, labor has few or no powerful sympathizers in Wash. DC. The Southern Airways strike in the early 60s survived only because Kennedy was in the White House.

[ironbutt57]

Would appear that a strike is just what the company wants...careful guys and gals, :confused: :eek:

[WhaleDriver]

Atlas has agreed to resume negotiations on Monday with ALPA and the NMB overseeing it. We'll see if they have something better than their Last Best Offer(LBO).

[non sched]

Whale Driver

That's good news but I have a question. If negotiations resume is the clock reset on the cooling off period or will the clock keep ticking toward June 28th? Good luck to Atlas pilots!:)

[fightson]

747400CA
I think any LSO worth is weight in salt would have rated your post as:
"Long in the grove, high come down, settle in the middle, ease gun to land, turd falling off A TALL MOOSE, taxi one wire, NO GRADE"

:cool: :confused: :rolleyes: :eek: :mad:

[WhaleDriver]

No, the fact that they are talking does not reset the clock. They are still under the threat of a strike deadline.

[Box_Mover]

Seems that the crewmembers are under the impression that AAMT is going back to the table to negotiate in good faith.

Did it occur to you that since the stock crashed that they are going to come to you with an offer that is less that their last best?

I’ll be back Tuesday to say I told you so.

[non sched]

Box_mover

Judging by the percentage of the pilots that rejected the first offer, a lower offer would only strengthen their resolve to go out on strike. If management uses the price of the stock for leverage to propose a lower offer they'll be commiting a major blunder- and the stock will only go lower. I'll bet the offer is better, and a settlement is near. I'll be back Monday to say I told YOU so.;)

[Box_Mover]

The tactics you are seeing is right out of the union buster handbook.

Crying poor is the last step right before the strike deadline.

Notice the timing of the financial "update" that the company will lose MORE than they thought for the year.

I am wondering how management will avoid being investigated for stock manipulation and cooking the books. After all, Arthur Anderson was their auditor until just a little while ago.

I stand by my claim. I agree with ironbutt57, the company WANTS a strike for some reason. Seems logical that getting rid of Atlas Air Inc. would be good for Atlas Air World Wide Holdings.

Its just a shell game.

[747400CA]

For DownIn3Green and Ignition Override

In different ways, and from different perspectives, you have communicated the 'big picture' of the potential threats facing the Atlas pilots.

With excess capacity capacity out there, undefined support from Polar and other pilot groups, and a political landscape tilted decidedly against them, the outlook is indeed not good.

Absent an improvement in these areas, I certainly share your fears for the Atlas group.

For Beaver Driver:

First - thank you for the thoughtful and rational response.

May I be so bold as to suggest that - if you are not already working as an ALPA volunteer - you might consider lending your skills and leadership in some capacity?

If I were a line guy at a pre-strike teleconference I would be inclined to listen well to a voice like yours.

Upon reflection, a couple of thoughts and questions in reply to your message:

- In the matter of garnering AACS support for your impending job action:

Has your ALPA leadership considered making policy to support pilot of a non-ALPA group (AACS) who honor your picket line?

If I recall correctly, the UAL 'pre-hires' in 1985 were afforded strike benefits (even before they were on the property) in addition to the promise that there would be no back to work agreement that did not protect their jobs.

Moreover, I seem to remember that the UAL pilots 'stayed out' long after the economic issues had been settled over the issue of protecting the 'pre-hires' jobs and seniority - with the eventual outcome of jobs protected and seniority (vis a vis new hire 'scabs' who did cross the line) to be determined by an arbitrator after a month-long strike.

Previous invective between the groups notwithstanding, I would venture the notion that a similar credible commitment from both the 'mainline' rank and file and the ALPA local and national leaders would go a long way to gaining AACS support for your cause.

- In the matter of 'struck work':

In past job actions in the U.S., passenger airline pilot groups have been steadfast in informing their management teams that they will not fly 'extra sections' over a competitor's routes to accommodate 'struck work'.

In this case, however, many of the routes flown by Atlas customer airlines overlap those flown by Polar and other freight providers.

Moreover, it will likely be difficult to discern

(a) those pallets in the warehouses in HKG / TPE / ICN / wherever which contain freight from longstanding Polar forwarders, and

(b) those pallets which contain freight from forwarders which might otherwise have used an Atlas aircraft (wet-leased to a customer airline) for their shipping needs.

I applaud your sensible reply re: pilots meeting their obligations (and no more - i.e., no overtime) as airline managers at Polar (and elsewhere) may be inclined to take hostages (Cathay Pacific last year, for example) wherever they can find them.

A word of caution, however, about real or perceived job protections in the matter of honoring picket lines and flying 'struck work'.

While it's been quite a while since I looked at an ALPA contract (or worked in the states, for that matter) I can never recall seeing any language which protected the job of a line pilot who who refused to fly an assigned trip - struck work or otherwise.

There is, of course, language in every contract for a grievance process to deal with management's termination of pilots for alleged 'misconduct' when they do refuse to fly.

May I suggest a request to your ALPA leadership for

- clear guidelines to the Polar pilots as well as other ALPA pilot groups (NWA) who will be called to carry freight diverted from Atlas aircraft?

- solicitation of expressions of support from non-ALPA pilot groups (World, GAC, Southern) and other IFALPA pilot groups (Cathay Pacific, KAL, Lufthansa, et al) who will inevitably be called to fly "Atlas" [customer] freight?

- an assessment from the ALPA economic analysis department of the excess capacity in Atlas customer markets, the projected Atlas cash 'burn rate' during a strike, and the possibility that Atlas management might acquire yet another airline certificate to try to 'fly through' your impending strike?

- In the matter of the 'end game' negotiations coming up next week:

It seems to me that if your ALPA leadership can

(a) enhance the credibility of your impending job action threat as well as

(b) define the consequential economic damage to an apparently skeptical Atlas management team

your negotiating position going into the talks scheduled for the 24th will be vastly improved - and may prove decisive in reaching an agreement that is good for both you and your company.

- Lastly - good luck to you and all your fellow Atlas pilots.

For fightson

I applaud your aggressive orientation but respectfully suggest you might consider channeling your energies in more productive ways in the days ahead.

Instead of throwing invective, moose turds (?), etc at some guy on a bulletin board, you might consider working the "Family Awareness' phone tree, volunteering for work in your strike center, or some other productive outlet for your - quite understandable - anger and frustration.

If one continues the analogy contained in your 'handle' , seems to me that the Atlas pilots are headed for for multiple "4 v unknown" engagements deep in enemy territory with uncertain tanker assets and yet-undefined support from allied air forces - this in a war that could last a period of days, weeks, or months.

Conveying a credible threat to the 'enemy' of your individual and collective ability to fight effectively over the long haul will likely be more productive than yelling "fight's on" and trying to kill the bogey in front of you in the first turn of the first engagement.

Lastly - no hard feelings, avoid the yellow snow, and good luck to you as well.

Thanks to all.

[Box_Mover]

I feel left out.

[411A]

Visit the pub down the street...plenty of company there.

[ocnus]

One of the reasons that Atlas has had a drop in business is that it is continually undermining its ACMI customers by contacting the cargo interest who are contracted to its ACMI customer and offering them 'better rates' than those offered by the ACMI operator. Atlas, in Europe and Africa, doesn't know if it is an airline or an ACMI supplier. It offers deals to cargo customers on behalf of its captive partners (TNT, Emirates, etc.) and files fifth freedom applications on the routes operated on AOCs by its ACMI customers. With this kind of sabotage, Atlas is not everyone;'s first choice for ACMI or voyage charter.

So, if you are wondering why business is bad you should know that the same management types that are screwing the pilots are also screwing their customers.This is not likely to improve.

[GlueBall]

The other side of the equation is that prospective customers are not inclined to book their cargo, especially perishables, with a carrier whose pilots might soon be on vacation. Just as passengers would be reluctant to buy tickets on a pax carrier under like circumstances. Besides, Atlas stock (CGO), down at $3.45/share, is close to "junk" status on Wall Street.
:(

[Move_It]

Just how low does the stock have to go before they are in the zone for a takeover?

[Intruder]

I doubt Mrs Chowdry would sell at such a loss...

Hints of a buyout would raise the stock price substantially!

[C Montgomery Burns]

From today's NY Times:

To the Editor:

"The Impossible Demands on America's Airlines" (Week in Review, June 16) leads to an inescapable conclusion: The American airline industry must undergo structural reforms to continue playing a vital role in our economy. To continue the low fares and ubiquitous service that customers demand, airline labor costs, which can reach 40 percent of operating expenses, must be realigned.

The major obstacle to this is the Railway Labor Act of 1926, which saddles labor and management with cumbersome dispute-resolution procedures that provide no practical mechanism for reducing labor costs. Even in the best of times, the act leads to acrimonious negotiations, including threatened strikes and strikes.

For airlines to stop limping from crisis to crisis, and for the public to be well served, part of the solution must include reform of the arcane Railway Labor Act.
NEIL GOLDSCHMIDT
Washington, June 20, 2002
The writer was secretary of transportation, 1979-80.

[Beaver Driver]

Rick Schuyler was offered and accepted a 40% raise at the shareholders meeting that was picketed by his pilots two weeks ago. Yet he continues to cry "poor mouth", refuses to look for any new business, and refuse to give his pilots any kind of pay raise. I agree with GTI 001 I can't wait to shut this company down.

For those requesting an example of pay, a 3 year -400 F/O makes just under 43,000 USD a year, while working (away from home) as many as 340 hours per month (the average worker in the US is away from home for work about 160 hours per month).

Rick Schuyler made $440,000 USD last year plus 5.2 million in "other compensation" and 5.2 million in stock options. (source is YAHOO financial) All this while the stock nosedived from around 45.00 USD per share to less than 4.00 USD per share at the close of the market Friday. Why is he still employed at Atlas?

None of the pilots want to see this company close. However, we have not recieved a pay raise in the 9 years of this companies existance, the work rule are **** poor and the retirement is non-existant. All the while, the robber barrons that run the place are reaping the rewards of our labor. Are we pissed off ? YOU BET are we willing to strike ? YOU BET Do we care if the company sinks? not as long as Schuyler and the rest of his Lorenzo clones are at the helm

[C Montgomery Burns]

Beaver Driver, when you and your colleagues interviewed for employment with Atlas, were you not aware that none of Atlas Air's contracts were with US airlines, and that they operate long haul international flights?

If so, you don't have a leg to stand on with the points made in your post. If not, I have a bridge in Brooklyn that's just come onto the market ... ;)

Schuyler's stock options are worthless with stock at the present level. He only makes money if it increases in value - not decreases! :rolleyes:

I can't understand why, if you are as unhappy as you claim, you don't simply quit? If you reckon you can do better, why not form Beaver Air?

[Perf Init]

Mr Burns;

Guess you have no idea what stock dilution and management accountablity is!

[Perf Init]

Atlas Air under the leadership of Ricky Shuyler, Atlas Air has gone from $28.00 to $3.00usd per share, a loss of some 800% and $925,000,000.00usd of shareholder equity value with current float of 37M.

Perhaps he should choose a different profession.

[Perf Init]

Ricky and gang have substantial "Golden Parachutes" in place to make such effort "very costly" to host.

The parachutes were put in place under the guise of preventing the pillage of Atlas Air.

[C Montgomery Burns]

Perf Init, you need to brush up on your maths. A loss of 800% of value would be $224 per share. What you really mean is that they lost 89% of their value. Heaven help you if you were my FO doing the W/B and you came out with something like that!!

In large part, the drop in value of the shares are attributable to:

- Death of Mike Choudhry
- 9/11
- Parking aircraft, due to 9/11
- Loss of contracts, due to 9/11
- Inability to utilise the aircraft due for delivery, due to 9/11
- B744 too big for most markets, due to global recession
- Strike threats by crews.

Unless you're claiming that Ricky is really OBL, then the events of 9/11 are completely outside his control, as is the recession.

All that you guys are going to achieve is a whole load of GSS-type offshoots around the world, and no US crews operating them. People have been telling you this on here and elsewhere for years and you've been ignoring it.

Tough.

[Perf Init]

So what do you calll a price change from $3.00 to $28.00 ????????????? An 80% gain.......not quite !!!! Better stick to your nickel and dime.

[ironbutt57]

You don't care if the company sinks.....well that's a bit extreme no?...sure your leaders are a bit unconvincing, but sinking the whole lot is not going to hurt them as much as it will hurt you...for sure...anyway good luck, and let's hope for an 11th hour reprieve here....:eek: :confused: :( :(

[C Montgomery Burns]

Perf Init - if you're talking about the value of the shares increasing from $3 to $28 - then that's a 933.33% increase. But we aren't talking about increases in value, are we?

I don't suppose you had anything to do with the fueling of a certain Air Canada 767, did you? ;) :D

[bugg smasher]

747400CA, a frighteningly coherent grasp of the issues at stake here, my compliments Sir. Are you available for consultation?

[non sched]

Just hearing from Atlas Air pilots that the strike will indeed occur starting 28 June. Any info from Atlas employees?:(

[Box_Mover]

I will say I told you so right now.

You WILL be replaced. Replaced by hungry, 747 wanna bees. Ta Ta Union and ALPO.

ITYS

[ernest t bass]

And I hope you enjoy your job at the "new" Atlas. A company so wretched that it moved the pilots to this drastic action. I hope you enjoy it there because it will be the best you will ever do.

Must not think much of yourself or your skills, eh Box_Mover?

The rest of us think even less.

[Beaver Driver]

============================================================ ================
================
DON'T COMPARE MY JOB TO OTHER JOBS
Lot has been said and written in the press concerning pilots' salaries and compensation. We have been told about how much it will cost our company, our job has been compared to others, and various subtle and not so subtle threats and intimidation tactics have been hurled at our group. In light of the current situation, please allow me, a pilot to give you a small glimpse into my world...

DON'T COMPARE MY JOB TO OTHER JOBS
..How many boardrooms explode over Long Island Sound?
..How many meetings conclude with hundreds of dead bodies?
..How many trucks cost $82 million dollars?
..How many doctors spend half the month away from their families?
..Do the children of media representatives cry when Daddy puts on his uniform to go to work because they know he'll be gone for a week?
..How many salesmen lose their jobs because they have high blood pressure?
..How many lawyers spent Christmas alone in a crash pad?
..When your wife is watching TV an the program is interrupted by a news flash of an aircraft accident, does she momentarily freeze in fear for what she might hear?
There is not another profession in the world where the consequences for mistakes are so catastrophic and unforgiving.

THE PRICE
..I pay the price when somebody loads full oxygen containers in the cargo hold
..I pay the price when a terrorist has a bone to pick
..I pay the price when loaders forget to set the locks
..I pay the price when engineers design a fuel pump not quite correctly
..I pay the price when Mother Nature decides to shift the winds...

YOU SPEAK OF THE COST
..Ask the CEO of Value-Jet the cost of a DC-9 buried in the Everglades...The Cost..
..Ask Fred Smith the cost to scrape a DC-10 and MD-11 from the runways at Steward and Newark...The Cost
..Ask Korean Airlines the cost of a 747 that didn't quite make the runway at Guam... The Cost
..Ask Fine Air the cost to clean up a DC-8 off a Miami Street... The Cost
..Ask Bob Crandall the cost of a B-757 impacting a Columbian mountain...The Cost
..And if not for their Cool, Calm, Professionalism, what could have been the cost of a UPS B-727 that suddenly
went dark and silent four miles above Chicago? How much were they worth to you that night? Industry standard or 25 % below? ...... The Cost

WHEN YOU TRY TO INTIMIDATE ME, REMEMBER
..It was I who flew Cobra gunships in the jungles of Vietnam while you worked on your masters degree

..It was I who sits alone at the tip of an F-18 in the silent instant before I am catapulted over a cold, dark sea, while you slept peacefully in your bed

..It was I who, one night watched my wings grow heavy with ice, miles from the safety of the nearest airport praying that I had enough fuel to find clear skies, while you watched Monday night football

..It was I who flew a C-130 into Panamanian gunfire, while you decorated
your Christmas tree in 1989

..It was I who faced head-on the fourth largest army in the world over the
deserts of Iraq and brought it to its knees, while you watched it on CNN

..It was I who landed an A-6 on a floating piece of tarmac no bigger than
your backyard, while you mowed yours

..It was I who orbited in unarmed tankers over enemy territory to
replenish others sworn to protect you

..It was I who watched missiles and bullets blossom in my face, yet didn't
turn and run, while you watched the flowers in your garden blossom

..It was I who buried a friend

..It is I who knows a little boy who will never play catch with his Dad,
so that you may play with your grandchild

Sir, please don't try to intimidate me.

I am not your enemy, I am your asset, an asset that has experienced and accomplished things few others dare to try. Realize this and there a few obstacles we can't overcome.

Author Unknown