Joint statement from NC

[12wheeler]

Can someone help me to understand the joint statement? What exactly have we achieved after the mediation? No wonder the DFO reckoned the mediator did a great job. He just bought the company another month with no pay rise and no CC.


Man, Our pay negotiation is taking longer than the middle east peace talks!

[12wheeler]

Did you expect anything?


Yes! I fully expected the mediation would break down and then we could officially go into CC under the GFBFA !


From the AOA letter dated 25 July


"the GC has also decided that it must prepare for the possibility that Mediations and continued Negotiations fail to provide satisfactory Agreements on Pay and Rostering."




Huh!?

[kmagyoyo]

Just had a chat to an AAOA Committee member who said the NC spent the five days talking about ROSTERING. No mention of pay in there at all.

Who's on this mysterious NC anyway...Two years with no payrise and your off on this rostering tangent.

[scavengepump]

This is insanity!

The sooner we have a new AOA president accompanied by some new hawkish blood on the GC the better....

Curtain??

And I agree, this very clandestine NC seems to be operating totally to its own agenda if the above is true. Just what is the remit between the GC and the NC??

I expect 'secret squirrels' from the company, but not my elected representatives!

[CPA777]

We need an old crusty 747 captain leading the charge who doesn't give a shat about his job and cx.

[twotigers]

I fail to see what is stopping the GC from simply saying

"Negotiations have failed, after an exhaustive effort. Contract compliance starts now. Any crew member caught volunteering for G day duty for whatever the reason will be publicly shamed and blackballed."

See how fast the company gets back to the table.

Thats it.

Its simple.

No if's and's or buts. Just send out the statement.

By the way, burnt an extra 1.6 ton on approach yesterday due to my poor handling ;).. what did that cost you Swire?

[twotigers]

Good Faith left the building.

There is no more good faith. Saying so only helps them, not us.

It was tried. It failed.

It's simple. I can't see why we can't move on.

Tomorrow's goal.. to burn 2.0 tons off landing estimate @ TOD. Maybe even do a tire.

#armyofone.

[T-bone]

sydneyman...#9

That is spot on.

[Max Reheat]

TwoTigers

Grow up!

All that is currently required is that you don't answer the phone.

Being unprofessional is pathetic in least and encroaches on the dangerous.
What if you'd needed that 1.6T following a missed approach due to no fault of your own?

[T-bone]

Is it just my login or is it everyone that cannot get the hkaoa forums updated since 041500 hkt.

Pprune is great. But the forums are important and I fear there is some manipulation going on..... Surely it's not just me that wants to comment about today's email.

[twotigers]

You grow up Max Reheat. It's guys like you ruining this profession.

If I needed it? I already took 5 tons over CFP to screw them further. Its mine to burn.. Why aren't you gassing up and burning it? Perhaps you're management.


Answer my phone? It was a rostered flight. I turned up, gassed up, and was incredibly inefficient.

My not answering my phone doesn't stop gentleman such as yourself from working G's. Shaming and black listing does.

Thats the only solution.

Like I said, next step.. burning rubber..

Safety and efficiency will be compromised.

[Steve the Pirate]

16 July twotigers

Personally, I burnt 1.6 tonnes extra on the rice bowl heading home last week, so I could make my bus..

4 August twotigers

By the way, burnt an extra 1.6 ton on approach yesterday due to my poor handling ..

Is 1.6 tonnes (or is it ton?) a figure you've sort of made up because it sounds achievable somehow? I'm sure everyone would like to know how you achieve such consistency in your extra fuel burn. Oh, and how exactly do you plan to "do a tire"? Sounds to me like someone showing lots of PPRuNe bravado.

You have the nerve to accuse Max of ruining our profession when you cross the line by saying that safety will be compromised, presumably deliberately? In that war, you are indeed an 'army of one' because you can certainly count me, and I would hope the vast majority of professional pilots, out of that campaign. Shame on you.

STP

[Progress Wanchai]

Steady Jizz.

After debating the merits of entering Maximum Safety Strategy, the GC, after realizing the current group of 'pilots' don't know their FTL's from their RP's, decided on another course of action.

Recruitment and training are at the forefront of the new industrial weapon. Minimum Safety Strategy.

"Team" and "Jizzmonkey" don't have to be mutually exclusive terms. Join in!!

[1200firm]

So Jizz, you are saying that by saving the company money you will be a direct beneficiary of those savings? How does that work exactly?

[Bob Hawke]

Let me answer that. The same way the Caring award works.

[crewsunite]

Hi Rod, yes why are we still waiting for your leadership?

TwoTigers - Your unproffesional ways are just that and will get you and maybe another into trouble oneday. While giving us a bad name. Perhaps you would consider toning down alittle please.

When the Taf's are stacking up take CPF and divert if needs be.

Clever and simple stratergies done in unison is all that is needed.

Its not the magnitude but rather the rate of change & renonance which tips the balance.

Only professionals are capable of synergy. Don't lower yourself to their level.
Never lose sight of who we are and the journey we took to get here.
First with the head then with the heart!
(Mix up that order at your & our Peril, team work and respect is required)

Sixth sense clearly demonstrates the AOA are wanting you to be in CC now already. It adds weight to the Mediation, and more so when it fails and they officially declare it.

Good luck.

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

"Never lose sight of who we are and the journey we took to get here."

That has got to be about the funniest line I have ever seen on pprune. What I once was, was a very competent aviator, doing an amazing job with friends and peers who just got the job done. All whom I know from days of old look back on those days with great affection. Who we were!

Who we are? Not even close to whom we once were in spirit, mentality or enthusiasm. That can't be undone!

[GICASII]

I suggest you read the latest weasel words from BEEBE: working on a G day is ALLOWED by the contract, not that I have ever done so. Get your facts right before you launch into a diatribe! And maybe the GC can provide stronger guidance for the weak-minded.

[Shep69]

It's simple.

For now, take CFP gas (adjusted for ZFW change) religiously just like the company wants--no more, no less. Operate prudently and by the book but don't look for helpful efficiency gains. If looking like below divert (most conservative figure) given delays and field conditions divert. Don't try to fudge things to make it or consider IFR if you are fairly certain of known ATC delays (which is usually the case).

If weather conditions given TAF require more then take more just like everyone always does.

DO check for messages when required then go comm out.

DON'T answer the phone if you don't have to.

DON'T work G days under any circumstances.

DON'T be helpful.

IF for whatever reason (especially a roster change) you are in a "gray" area for fatigue (i.e. on the edge of being too tired but maybe sorta could fly) make the conservative call, fill out an ASR-F and don't fly.

And wait for further escalation if it happens.

No company has ever become or stayed profitable with a bunch of stooges on board; conversely judgment and initiative requires adequate compensation and maintenance of same. If they want to pay for stooges they can have stooges.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Cathy need to close down and start again. A good dose of reality is needed in the ranks :\

[fly123456]

The company is making loads of money compared to other airlines around the world. That should be our leverage.
Why should we concede anything?
I keep hearing 3-men long haul "because others do it".
The day the company is on the edge of bankruptcy is the day we'd have to start considering it.

If they are complaining about the lack of profitability, maybe they should have a look at all those price fixing fines.

[Pogie]

Jizz,

Saving the company money will increase your profit share. You may get HK$2000 next year instead of $1800. That'll get you about 1 and a half drinks at a bar in SFO. Costing the company money will hit them in the only place that they feel it. Swire's bean counters will panic and the message will come from above to fix this mess. If you do nothing, you'll get nothing.

TwoTigers,

While I can appreciate your desire to do something, you come across as a buffoon. Smoke some tires? You've burned 1.6T how many times now? Judging by your join date, I'd bet that you're not even a captain and haven't burned anything other than a bunch of BS.

[Sam Ting Wong]

In one of the last News letters some Cargo guy stated that one extra Pacific sector cost about 500 000 US$.

Crew cost are insignificant. A payrise would be X % from insignificant.

This is about the ego of some managers looking for a bonus, nothing else.

I say the answer must be war.

May it be guerilla warfare or full frontal or both.

[stevieboy330]

It is my understanding that many industrial unions & employee contract negotiators as well as tertiary institutions are starting to cite the "CX Pilot body & the AOA" as an example of exceedingly poor salary & contract negotiators.

As a professional group, the representatives of the Pilots at CX have demonstrated themselves as amateurs with little to no negotiating presence or ability.

Many now consider the Pilot representatives as a virtual laughing stock. With "negotiations" wholly consisting of bluff after bluff with no follow through whatsoever. On the other side of the table is a well briefed, highly organised & unified employer who considers the employee spokes party weak, easily manipulated & ineffective.

It is astonishing to me that the Pilots of CX would continue to stand for such treatment when the reality of their potential impact on their employer could be so severe.

[cxorcist]

So what happens when a "bluff" isn't a bluff?

I find it fortuitous that half the GC changes over in the next month. The company may find itself dealing with a whole different animal.

Time for a guy check boys and girls...

[Liam Gallagher]

You need G-day workers!!

Everyone has the right to not answer their phones. I am not disputing that. However, for CC to be close to an effective industrial weapon, the company must see a change once CC is called. They also must believe that if they make concessions and get a deal, then the AOA will cease CC and they will see another change back to circumstances they find more favourable. Unless they observe change, then CC is useless as an industrial weapon.

For those that puff out their chests and write they are in permanent CC, whilst not disputing your right to do that, you are actually undermining the effectiveness of CC.

There is a growing school of thought that the first action of CC should be a "helpfulness" campaign that makes crew control's life as easy as possible. Once we are propping up the roster, well .... you can guess what happens....:eek:

[Captn_Kirk]

I agree, Liam.

However, I think CC can still put the operations in a worse situation than they are now.

Just compare the situation of the last few months to what it was a year, or even six months ago.

It's unfortunate we even have to reach this point, because even if the company gives in, and offer us a barely adequate deal, most of us will still be pissed off and would continue to not answer phones, etc...
Bad (or good) habits are here to stay.

The managers shot themselves in the foot by not accepting a proper pay review last year. But what do they care? They'll still get a nice bonus and can then pass the hot potato to someone else.

[Oasis]

You are absolutely right, Liam.

[superfrozo]

Edit: this was meant to follow Oasis' reply, but Rod beat me to it!

No, he's not. This fallacious concept has got to be kyboshed.

It's absolutely flawed logic to claim "we need G day workers". With every bit of assistance that pilots unnecessarily provide the Company, it enables management to kick the can of reasonable remuneration/CoS further down the road. Every time someone helps out, you generate a "virtual" SO, FO and CN, relieving the pressure of supply, despite their increasing demand.

I shudder to think how much better off we would be if it wasn't for the simple minded "I'm alright thanks Jack-the AOA hasn't said we're in C.C" group. You get the contracts you deserve. God only knows how much leverage we would have gained by now, how little the Company would have to work with, if it wasn't for single minded, short sighted guys and girls willing to prostitute themselves for a few lousy percent of G day callout remuneration, a couple of G days worked to improve a commuting roster, or an early CMD to satisfy an ego or basing requirement.

Next time you're p!ssing and moaning about why you don't have the pay rise which you obviously deserve, just think of all the times you've sold your soul to the devil for an ill-thought out, short term and ultimately worthless "gain".

We wouldn't be in the current quagmire of drawn out negotiations and Company prevarications if everyone just put the group ahead of their own selfish needs. It's not rocket surgery.

Even GC Members are "horse trading" rosters with the Company. It makes me sick to my stomach. Keep justifying it however - I respect those that actually admit they're doing it for selfish reasons. Just don't pour BS in my ear claiming that we "need" G day heroes and other self interested individuals to "gain future leverage". We need that like a Thai hooker needs a degree in astrophysics.

You're only fooling yourselves.

[Liam Gallagher]

You missed the point. Read my post again, I am referencing this solely in terms of the effectiveness of CC.

If you want to argue that no pilot should ever work a G-day because of overtime distribution or roster stability, then fine make your arguments, but that has nothing to do with industrial relations. You are also about 10 years too late with your arguments, because you signed a contract that not only allows it, but rewards it.

I put it to you, if nobody ever worked a G-day, nobody ever answered their phone or checked crewdirect before sign-on, then a CC campaign would be completely ineffective, because Crew Control would see absolutely no change in our behaviour. CC would give us no leverage.

Like I say, whether you approve of G-day working or not, in terms of CC effectiveness, you need G-days workers.

[boxjockey]

Liam,

If everyone did as you say, then we would have had a reasonable payrise LONG AGO, as the wheels would have already fallen from the wagon.

box

[Liam Gallagher]

No, if everyone was in a permanent state of not answering phones or checking Crewdirect, you would not get a payrise.

What would a payrise do? Remember, the company would realise that pay would have no effect as you are in a permanent state of not answering the phone. If they gave us all a payrise, would you work a G-day, would Frozo forgive you if you did?

You, frozo (who I think is on the GC) and Rod, need to deal with the world as it exists, not how you believe it should exist. The HKAOA has 2000 members out of some 3000 pilots. A permanent state of CC would just result in the non-members writing their own rosters and pay checks, and HKAOA members would be left with the dregs. I think over time you would see membership numbers decline. Now frozo, would "tut tut" and say they are putting self interest first, that is true, but remember that is why they are non-members.

If not answering your phone makes you feel better, then go for it. If trawling through Crewdirect looking for G-day works passes away the hours, go for it. But don't kid yourself that you are working towards a pay rise- you are not.

Now if the 2000 temporarily became the prop that held the roster up, and then the GC turned to the company and said see that prop, see this foot, see this phone with the SCMP phone number on speed dial.... Then you may get a payrise. But just like in 2010 the membership would have to promise to keep propping up the roster for a period of time to get the pay rise- it's called leverage.

[superfrozo]

You keep telling yourself that.

[White None]

Firstly, I'm not one. A thought - how far down the list of jobs do you intend to go? One may consider an L day worker to be out of order, or a G Day worker or a new sim profile tester etc etc, coming down some kind of arbitrary scale about which I make no comment. Can you extend it to trainers though? Where does it change from taking a job available to anyone to earn money to unnecessarily "Volunteering"? No-one is forced to become a Captain; are our colleagues who became or are becoming Captains now volunteering to help out? Think not, none of us would be here without the Trainers, it's just a job, give the guys a break.

[cxorcist]

Trainers? Yes, it IS a problem because they are training replacements who will do the same job on far inferior contracts. I would not do it under any circumstances... 8,10,12,15,18%. No amount is worth cutting off your own nose for! Those who do are both greedy and short-sighted.

[Kontract Killer]

You guys need to get off the crack pipe and step away from the furry wall!

Seriously, being a trainer is the cause of all our problems? Firstly, I didn't volunteer for anything, I was asked and accepted. The amount of reward I receive is certainly worth any extra efforts that I put in and bet my roster is a damn sight more stable than yours. Is it really enough? Do any of us make enough? When is enough, enough? I bet it's more than than you think it is. I'm not over 60 and still here...what's your excuse?

Please tell me which airline doesn't train new inductee crews on lower contracts? Any? Load of ****e! You expect me to quit my C&T job, so that PC's can expire just to make an industrial point for you? I don't work G days, I don't answer my phone and I don't acknowledge Crew Direct. Greedy and short sighted... Seriously? I do it because I actually enjoy doing it, despite the frustration of my ill prepared and demotivated colleagues who turn up time after time and perform like they have never seen the A/C before...Now that's pathetic.

Pick the correct target, I'm not the enemy and will not make a stand for the greater good. I'm on permanent CC and have been for several years.

All this ****e about accepting training positions is an old argument propagated by has beens and wannabes. Get a f"""""g life!

I seriously hope 'Curtain' isn't Roger Federer, that would be a great disappointment.

[cxorcist]

Kontract Killer,

How appropriate for you to use that name! You actually are killing your own contract with your work. You know it, we know it, that's it and that's all. Training guys and gals that put downward pressure on your own wages is just plain dumb.

You got one thing right though. I am a wannabe. I'd like to be trainer, but I would never volunteer for it (asked or not) under the current conditions. You are quite literally making yourself a minority as an expat on full housing. You will soon be outnumbered by those you trained to the line. What do you think the future of housing will be at that point? A scalers made the same mistake. How many of those are there left? Maybe you were/are one. If so, you're a really slow learner.

Forget about pay rises. Housing is the only thing we have which is even remotely indexed to inflation. Bye bye! Maybe it will be easier to get those tiny HDP driven pay rises once housing is gone. Whew, what a relief!

Tell yourself all those lies if it makes you feel better, but you need to get a f"""""g clue if you are believing your own BS.

[Flap10]

What a load of crap kk:mad: As soon as you join the training department you've essentially become a pseudo manager. During any industrial action you WILL be expected to help the company out, no ifs ands or buts! You do recall how in the late 90s several trainers tried to leave the training department, only to be told that they would have to resign from CX all together. Sorry but you've already sold your soul to the devil.

*I didn't volunteer for anything, I was asked and accepted.*

Sorry to burst your little bubble but they ask everyone, not just you!

I do it because I actually enjoy doing it

Bullsh!t , you do it because you want to boost your little ego by having the title Training Check Captain on your business card. Plain and simple :mad:

I don't begrudge any of the old training Captains because they joined at a time when industrial relations were ok. I have a huge problem with a lot of the young guys with barely any command time under their belt stepping all over each other to get into the training department. Tell you what skygod, that's even more pathetic than your ill prepared colleagues.

[cpdude]

There are some ugly people in this airline...sad really.:=

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

Cpdude,

Ugly people in the airline exist for sure but thankfully in a very small minority. Probably about as small a minority as those who post regularly here.

Hugo

[asianeagle]

Sometimes I wonder if we are not confusing Contract Compliance with Industrial Action.
CC being where we do no more or less than what we are contracted to do. It makes life difficult for the company.

Industrial Action is where we get vindictive and go out of our way to cause sh!t and cost the company money, make life really hard for company and us.

Whilst I tend to agree a lot of the time with Curtain and his merry men some of the quotes above may be straying into the latter….

it was after all CC we all voted for correct??
last I checked, being a trainer was still within the bounds of our contract. No I'm not a trainer, but who nows, if the terms of the contract appeal to me someday, then I might, adhering only to my contract only of course.
If memory serves, a lot of the guys having a go on this forum, still took upgrades and went to work during the last little spat post 2001.:ugh:

If we want to step it up, we need to vote in a motion of Industrial Action, then we can tear each other up….ourselves and the company!

Till ten, you need to keep it straight up and real:ok:

[Shep69]

Liam,

If no one answered their phone on G days (or was not contactable when not contracturally required) manning would be at--not below--contractural levels. Answering phones on G days effectively costs potential co-workers their jobs becuase when it's used as a matter of routine operations it is used to cover inadequate manning and inadequate contracts. In fact, answering phones and over-checking rosters/working G days actually contributes to roster instability because there's little penalty for NOT constantly changing rosters and it can always be juggled to be made to work.

An added benefit would be that pay would be set to what it should be given demand and whatever contract we were working under. There would be a reduction in "gray" areas and more objective pay for work--benefit to all.

NO ONE is advocating not pitching in and helping in times of bona fide crisis. And I think everyone here as professionals recognizes when this happens and is more than willing to as a team help out. Bona-fide crises are however rare--this type of operation has morphed from contingency to routine. As such, G day workers are an enabler of bad behaviour in all respects.

[Will IB Fayed]

Nobody is contracted to be a trainer: They are all volunteers for those positions that help the company conduct its business.
Nobody is contracted to upgrade to captain. They are all volunteers for those positions that help the company conduct its business.
Nobody is contracted to upgrade to FO. They are all volunteers for those positions that help the company conduct its business.

So it's OK for you to volunteer for an upgrade, but not a Captain to TC?

[CXKA]

You cannot opt out of an FO upgrade, only a command upgrade!

[Max Reheat]

Curtain Rod,

You need to calm down.

I was going to vote for you, but it is now clear that you intend taking the membership down the same road that ND did 2001. You will remember the phrase 'Mutually Assured Destruction'.

So, I'm sorry, you've lost me!

Contract Compliance is exactly as described by asianeagle. Nothing more, nothing less.

If the time comes for IA then so beit, but you will have a much bigger struggle getting our disparate bunch to vote for it and an even bigger headache getting them to actually do it. We all need to understand that in HKG it is not illegal for an employer to terminate the contract of a striking employee. This is not the first world with first world employment laws.

For those asking, the company is scared of official and AOA sanctioned contract compliance, not so much because of unfilled flight deck seats but more because of the negative impact of it reaching the press and the downside to pax bookings and cancellations/swapping to other carriers. Yes, of course guys and girls not working on G days and showing general lack of goodwill will cause a headache, but that is all it is.

Contract compliance has nothing to do with training and Cdrs discretion etc, it is all about fulfilling your contract to the letter!

[cxorcist]

Max,

There are lots of gray areas surrounding this subject. I would not minimize the potential impact of a well organized and executed "Contract Compliance Campaign." This company is scrambling already to fill seats. The rosters couldn't possibly get worse, so it would not take much to get the wheels coming off completely. The training system is at max capacity, thank you trainers, but relief is nowhere in sight.

Wrt terminating contracts, do you think this airline would run with 50 fewer pilots than it has today. I don't. There is no fat in the system. The offers to defer leave prove that. You wait, leave will soon be taken away non-voluntarily.

Sickness rates are at record highs and going higher! Further efforts to gain producivity without resolution on compensation will send them higher yet. In the insurance world, I think they call where we are right now as "the death spiral." So many are sick and getting sicker that there are not enough healthy folks to pay the bills and keep the lights on.

[Max Reheat]

Curtain Rod,

Sorry for the confusion, but you really do write (and sound) like the geezer who is standing for election. I guess it's the 'Curtain' part of your handle!

cxorcist,

In the first world, with first world employment laws I would agree entirely with you but unfortunately we don't work in the first world. This time terminations will be handled better,; a kangaroo court will be held before summary dismissal but you can bet your bottom dollar that control and subjugation will win the day over fulfilling the AOC requirements for having sufficient crews. Flights are already cancelled due lack of crews, and no eyelids are batted. It's just the way our caring employer works. Don't be in any doubt, the end result will be very similar to last time. Now, do GDLC or Rod play cricket, or any other sport, for the ensuing book?

[Flap10]

Sorry Will but you’re using flawed logic to justify your actions.

Upgrade to FO and then final upgrade to Cap is a natural career progression within any airline, it is what is expected of you by everyone. So long as you meet the experience requirements and the standards, you will be upgraded based on seniority. Nobody is disadvantaged (CX politics aside)! The upgrade is not volunteered for, it is your entitlement. Upgrades are rarely turned down, and if they are, it is usually because of extenuating circumstances.

Taking a training position is as much of an upgrade as volunteering to be a CX flash mob dancer. These positions are volunteered for through NTCs and completely out of seniority. You can apply having met all their requirements and they can still reject you if they don’t like you. You’re simply not entitled to a training position, but you will always be entitled to an upgrade.

An upgrade has a huge impact on pay, experience, and future marketability. It’s the goal of every pilot within an airline to try and get to the left seat as quickly as possible. You’re not really helping the company by taking an upgrade, you’re really helping yourself.

Taking a training position has an insignificant impact on your overall career in terms of pay and marketability. So in a way you’re really helping the company significantly more than you are yourself. So why do it at a time when relations between management and pilots are at their lowest? What are you trying to achieve by doing it? What are you missing out on if you stay as a regular line pilot?

[chards]

So if it's ok to accept a command course but not ok to be a trainer, who is going to sit in the other seat during my upgrade?

[Flap10]

That's the whole point! By not volunteering for anything ( working G days, training positions, etc) at a time when we trying to get better pay and rosters you're exerting immense pressure on the company.


Airplanes have to be crewed, upgrades have to continue in line with their expansion plans, but when that becomes increasingly difficult because of lack of volunteers, a clear message gets sent to the management. Delaying tactics will not be an option for them anymore. It will be in their interest to come up with an agreement that is acceptable to both parties as quickly as possible.

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

Saying no to trainers will end up just like the early freighter commands did……... it will be offered so far down the seniority list that some wannabe's just won't be able to say no.

Net result, inexperienced Captains not suited to training bringing their wannabe attitude and ego's into the training game.

If that's what you boys want…..go for it!

[Captn_Kirk]

And what to you think the company will do?

Just offer slightly better terms for trainers (joker leave, anyone?)
And soon, people will find it attractive enough.

My bet on the offer from the company's side is a payraise for North American based, a improvement in HKPA, and not much more. Because these are the issues now. (not enough qualified new joiners, and US guys leaving soon)

I hope we'll be strong enough to remain united until we all get a bare inflation correction.
Then it will always be time to remain united for other issues (HKPA, training role compensation, tax issues, etc...)

[DropKnee]

You knuckle heads need to read about the history of labor airline relationships.
One of the most successful contract awards was the UAL contract 2000. The got in in part by flying the contract, trainers and checkers only did line checks and sim checks. No initial checks and no one accepted upgrades or check airman positions. No one can argue about the success of that contract.
We get crap because we refuse to do what is required to be successful.

[Max Reheat]

Drop knee,

All very good, but did UAL not go into chapter 11 shortly afterwards?

[cxorcist]

Max,

I tend to think it was more the 9/11 thing than the pilot contract that did UAL in, but I could be wrong. In any event, they were not a well managed airline then.

[cxorcist]

chard,

That's the whole point, Einstein.

[JPJP]

Stevieboy330 - Laughing Stock
It is my understanding that many industrial unions & employee contract negotiators as well as tertiary institutions are starting to cite the "CX Pilot body & the AOA" as an example of exceedingly poor salary & contract negotiators.

As a professional group, the representatives of the Pilots at CX have demonstrated themselves as amateurs with little to no negotiating presence or ability.

Many now consider the Pilot representatives as a virtual laughing stock. With "negotiations" wholly consisting of bluff after bluff with no follow through whatsoever. On the other side of the table is a well briefed, highly organised & unified employer who considers the employee spokes party weak, easily manipulated & ineffective.

It is astonishing to me that the Pilots of CX would continue to stand for such treatment when the reality of their potential impact on their employer could be so severe.

Unfortunately, the label of "laughing stock" may have begun a little earlier than you think - the day the AOA hired an ex-officer of one of the most dysfunctional pilot unions in the world; USAPA - A union designed to avoid a legal seniority agreement. As a result of their decisions, USAPA pilots were some of the most poorly paid major airline pilots in the United States.

I wish you all the best. Sincerely.

[Shep69]

I might humbly suggest rather than everyone throwing snarky quips at each other--here and elsewhere--we devote our time and talents toward planning a strategery for the upcoming CC and follow on actions that it appears are almost certain to happen. There's gotta be alot of talent amongst the internet warriors here to figger out stuff that will be effective if we do move into these stages.