Logging IFR time

[Fifty_Seven]

Quick question,

Can someone clarify can i log IFR time for example; on a normal vfr flight as long as I stick to the IFR rules? I am a flight instructor so thinking of using some of my hours to help build the time. I ask this because I need to build some IFR time for a position. If so can someone please find me the legislation that says I can do so.

Cheers in advance.

[Intruder]

Where are you?

In general, if you are not instrument rated, you cannot legally log ANY instrument time when solo in an aircraft. Also, if you are not IFR, how could you log instrument time without a safety pilot?

In the US, FAR 61.51. says:
(b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:
(1) General—
(i) Date.
(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.
(iii) Location where the aircraft departed and arrived, or for lessons in a flight simulator or flight training device, the location where the lesson occurred.
(iv) Type and identification of aircraft, flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device, as appropriate.
(v) The name of a safety pilot, if required by §91.109 of this chapter.
(2) Type of pilot experience or training—
(i) Solo.
(ii) Pilot in command.
(iii) Second in command.
(iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized instructor.
(v) Training received in a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device from an authorized instructor.
(3) Conditions of flight—
(i) Day or night.
(ii) Actual instrument.
(iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device.

and FAR 91.109.c says:
(c) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless—
(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.
(2) The safety pilot has adequate vision forward and to each side of the aircraft, or a competent observer in the aircraft adequately supplements the vision of the safety pilot; and
(3) Except in the case of lighter-than-air aircraft, that aircraft is equipped with fully functioning dual controls. However, simulated instrument flight may be conducted in a single-engine airplane, equipped with a single, functioning, throwover control wheel, in place of fixed, dual controls of the elevator and ailerons, when—
(i) The safety pilot has determined that the flight can be conducted safely; and
(ii) The person manipulating the controls has at least a private pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings.

Of course, a competent flight instructor would know where to find the applicable regulations...

[Fifty_Seven]

I am based in the UK, I am instrument rated and reasonably competant :ok:

I am aware of the IFR rules but my question is if I book out vfr can i legally log IFR time if I adhere to the IFR Rules?

I am only posting here because I can't find a definitive answer myself.

[Piltdown Man]

Yes, of course you can. But are we talking about flight with sole reference to instruments vs IFR? The two are different. And then there's the issue of logged hours vs performance. A potential employer will expect to see an ability commensurate with logged hours. If you log 100 hours of flight by sole reference to instruments, they'll expect to see you performing as a 100 hour pilot. Remember, the guys doing the assessments really know how you should fly vs hours logged - it's their job. If you under perform you won't get the opportunity to explain why.

[Intruder]

What do the UK regulations say about logging "IFR" time? In the US, there is no such thing in a log -- only actual or simulated Instrument Time ("sole reference to instruments" as Pitdown noted).

Under US rules, in general, IFR and VFR are mutually exclusive. You can fly under one or the other. When flying under VFR, you CANNOT legally fly actual IMC, so the only way to log Instrument Time is Simulated Instrument Time with a Safety Pilot on board. When flying solo under IFR, you cannot log actual Instrument Time when you are VMC, because you still have "see and avoid" responsibility.

Bottom line is: Either actual IFR + IMC, or have a Safety Pilot on board.

[OhNoCB]

Intruder,

IFR and VFR might be mutually exclusive, but IFR and VMC aren't. If you are actually flying IFR then you do not need a safety pilot, you only need a safety pilot (UK rules anyway) whenever you are simulating/practicing flying IMC but are actually VFR.

In my Jepp JAR logbook there is no provision for logging of Actual IF time, just for IFR time. Whilst doing air taxi work 90% of my flights were IFR, but a lot less was spent in IMC.

I am relatively new to the game, but I think it used to be the case that IFR time didn't matter, and honestly this makes more sense, because in the UK it was (or still is for a while) legal to log IFR time without any instrument qualifications or training, as long as you were VMC. Under EASA regs they don't seem to care about how long you have spent flying with sole reference to instruments, but ask you to log time spent IFR. This is either already or will soon be illegal in the UK (I think other countries in Europe already state this) unless you hold an IR of some sort.

[High Energy]

One instructor of mine, about 10 years ago, told me that if you fly commercially you can log your block time -15 minutes in the IFR column. (Back then it was under JAR rules. Don't know how that holds wrt EASA)

Never given it any thought since.

[Intruder]

Looks like another aspect where the rules are WAY different in the US and the UK (or maybe you misunderstand them). Of course, I have no idea what the UK rules are, because though the OP asked for "the legislation", the only ones posted so far are the US rules I posted.

In the US, there is no logging "IFR" time; only Actual or Simulated Instrument time (i.e., that time flying solely by reference to instruments).

Please post the UK rule that says you are relieved of "see and avoid" responsibilities (i.e., can fly "head down" so you can legally meet the Simulated Instrument Time requirements) when flying solo IFR and VMC.

[flydive1]

Why would you fly "head down"?

[thing]

Please post the UK rule that says you are relieved of "see and avoid" responsibilities (i.e., can fly "head down" so you can legally meet the Simulated Instrument Time requirements) when flying solo IFR and VMC.

As has already been posted, if you are flying simulated dial time in VMC you need a safety pilot. If you are actually in IMC then you don't, as it's not simulated. It seems counter intuitive; if the weather is brilliant you need to drag someone along with you to shoot a few approaches, if the ducks are walking you can go on your own.

In my logbook (I'm not a commercial pilot by the way) the two columns are 'Instrument Flying' and 'Simulated Instrument Flying'.

[mad_jock]

They are trapped by EASA which means he needs IFR time to operate single crew commercially IFR.

Its been tried before to get hours counted IFR while teaching a PPL nav ex.

Its all rather dodgy to be honest. And pretty transparent what you are up to.

I know one person that managed it and another 2 that it didn't work for and one that got removed from flying after 4 months when the FOI audited the training files.

I can't give you any references though to say you can't.

[OhNoCB]

Please post the UK rule that says you are relieved of "see and avoid" responsibilities (i.e., can fly "head down" so you can legally meet the Simulated Instrument Time requirements) when flying solo IFR and VMC. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you (or you, me). If I am doing an IFR flight and I am in IMC the whole way for example, and then on descent I become VMC. I do not now need to acquire a safety pilot. I will be in VMC but I will still be IFR, and therefore IFR separation principles will still be applied (whether that's by radar, procedural, or 'big sky')

The rule that says that you must have a safety pilot if you are flying VFR but heads down simulating instrument flight still applies in the UK.

I don't recall coming across a requirement (in Europe) for simulated instrument time (nor do I remember seeing a requirement from it to be differentiated from actual instrument time. The definition I remember was along the lines of "flight be sole reference to instruments" which could apply in either simulated or actual).

to go back to this statement:

When flying under VFR, you CANNOT legally fly actual IMC, so the only way to log Instrument Time is Simulated Instrument Time with a Safety Pilot on boardWhy can you not fly IFR?

[Amadis of Gaul]

I am based in the UK, I am instrument rated and reasonably competant


If only you could spell "competent", I'd almost believe you.

[Intruder]

OhNoCB:

The OP's whole purpose is to log "IFR time".

First, I'm not sure what he means by that any more, given mad_jock's post re EASA.

Second, I agree with your statement that you do not need a safety pilot for VMC portions of IFR flight. However, technically you cannot log "Actual Instrument" or "Simulated Instrument" time for those VMC portions. I will grant that few (if any) of us time it to the minute, but I'm discussing the "big picture" of the rules here. Even when you are IFR, there is NO requirement for ATC to provide separation from VFR traffic -- that is still your (and the other pilots') responsibility, hence the requirement to look outside the cockpit.

AFAIK, Actual and Simulated Instrument time in aircraft are treated the same for purposes of experience requirements. There is no "requirement" to have Simulated Instrument time, but it is widely used when flight in actual IMC is not available. For whatever reason, all logbooks I have seen break them down into the 2 types.

As to your last question, my statement as quoted is prefaced by "When flying under VFR..."


flydive1:

The only way to legally (in the US; still no UK or EASA rules posted) log Simulated Instrument time while VMC is to fly "head down" -- referring solely to instruments while using a "hood" or other vision-restricting device.

You can practice instrument procedures (e.g., fly an ILS approach procedure) all you want when solo and VFR and VMC. However, you cannot legally log those approaches or the time as actual or simulated approaches or instrument time for the purpose of satisfying regulatory minimums (e.g., minimum time or approaches to apply for an IR, or recency of experience requirements). I fly instrument procedures on over 90% of my flights in the 747, but I often log them as visual approaches because I am not IMC and use a VMC scan.

[mad_jock]

EASA stipulate that we log IFR time in a separate entry.

They then require certain amounts of it for different reasons for certain things single crew ops IFR commercial flights is one of them.

So heading off down the what is and isn't and do you require a safety pilot isn't really helpful.

What the guy wants to do is go off with a student on a nav-ex fly it at IFR levels etc then claim the flight as IFR to get his numbers up.

The plane more than likely isn't IFR fitted and legal and he will be looking out the window the whole time more than likely never touching the controls.

But he wants the time to get a job. The fact that he more than likely isn't qualified to teach instrument flying and will also be logging the flight as instructor just complicates things further.

Any post holder in a AOC should laugh at it. If a flight ops inspector see's it they certainly won't laugh.

But the op isn't the first and won't be the last to try and get round that regulation.

[flydive1]

flydive1:

The only way to legally (in the US; still no UK or EASA rules posted) log Simulated Instrument time while VMC is to fly "head down" -- referring solely to instruments while using a "hood" or other vision-restricting device.

You can practice instrument procedures (e.g., fly an ILS approach procedure) all you want when solo and VFR and VMC. However, you cannot legally log those approaches or the time as actual or simulated approaches or instrument time for the purpose of satisfying regulatory minimums (e.g., minimum time or approaches to apply for an IR, or recency of experience requirements). I fly instrument procedures on over 90% of my flights in the 747, but I often log them as visual approaches because I am not IMC and use a VMC scan.

Yes, but you are again talking about the US.
The OP is in EASA land, where you log IFR everytime you fly according to the IFR rules, being IMC or VMC does not matter.

[thing]

The OP is in EASA land, where you log IFR everytime you fly according to the IFR rules, being IMC or VMC does not matter.

Is there a seperate entry in a commercial pilot's logbook for IFR? Genuine question. Anyone with a plain vanilla PPL can fly IFR as long as it's within the limits of their license; although obviously they can't do any real or simulated instrument flying unless under instruction. There's no actual column for IFR flight though in a PPL logbook except to put it in the 'comments' column.

[mad_jock]

yep there is.

And with the current EASA rule changes I don't think you can, but you are correct you used to be able to. Now you need some form of Instrument rating to be able to.

[Intruder]

Yes, but you are again talking about the US.
The OP is in EASA land, where you log IFR everytime you fly according to the IFR rules, being IMC or VMC does not matter.
My initial response included the regulations, AS REQUESTED BY THE OP, with no knowledge of where he is.

So far, nobody else has posted any of the relevant EASE regulations, so simply consider all my posts as being based on US regulations.

Apparently I am not the only one who believes the OP is trying to justify padding his logbook with instrument (or "IFR") time without following the relevant regulations. Assuming that there is some relevant regulation about logging "IFR" time, his initial post is telling...
Can someone clarify can i log IFR time for example; on a normal vfr flight...

So, what is the EASA "IFR" requirement supposed to satisfy? Is there a minimum "IFR" requirement for a CPL or ATPL, or is there a minimum "IFR" time to maintain currency? If so, is that in place of, or in addition to, any "Instrument Time" requirement? Once more, please post an excerpt of the relevant regulations to aid our understanding!

[fellowpilot]

fifty seven, can i log aerobatic time? I am imagining myself doing loop de loops right now.
Please do some research for me and find out why or why not. And attach full links to all applicable regulations; JAA, FAA, ICAO.

I'm about to playing 18 holes of golf shortly. I look forward to a full report.

[mad_jock]

Not really because the easa regs are made by a bunch of lawyers.

I think the reg is that you need 750 hours IFR time before you can operate a SPA commercially.

Those that are flying multi crew don't care about it because it doesn't effect them. And those that already have it don't care either.

Multicrew jobs are hard to come by.

There is also a requirement for IFR time before becoming a instrument instructor.

So for your vfr ppl instructor with sub 100 hours under thier belt IFR its virtually impossible to go to single pilot commercial ops. And once someone is in multi crew ops they have no interest going back to single pilot ops or for that matter instrument instructing.

So there is now openings in spa operations but no real supply of fresh meat to sit in the seat.

[OhNoCB]

Copy from OM pt.A which is most likely a direct or paraphrased version of the regs (to show the requirement MJ is talking about):

The Operator shall ensure that a Commercial Pilot Licence (CPL) holder shall not operate as a commander of an aircraft certified in the AFM for single pilot operations unless:
1. When conducting passenger carrying operations under VFR rules outside a radius of 50 nm from an aerodrome of departure, the pilot has a minimum of 500 hours total flight time on aircraft or holds a valid instrument rating; or
2. When operating on a multi-engine type under Instrument Flight rules (IFR), the pilot has a minimum of
 700 hours total flight time on aircraft which includes;
 400 hours as pilot-in-command (in accordance with JAR-FCL)
 of which 100 hours have been under IFR, including
 40 hours multi-engine operation
Note 1 The 400 hours as pilot-in-command may be substituted by hours operating as co-pilot on the basis of two hours as co-pilot is equivalent to one hour as pilot-in-command, provided those hours were gained within an established multi-crew system.

[mad_jock]

Its not asmuch as i thought i knew there was a 700 ish requirement in there somewhere. As you might of guessed i come from a multicrew enviroment and have far in excess of the hours required.

But i am also prevented by hours requirements from being a multi engine instrument instructor under easa. There is a requirement for 30 hours pic in a mep to be a class rating instructor on them. The fact i have thousands of hours in turboprops PIC counts for nothing.

Appraently mixture levers, cowl flaps and suction pumps require 30 hours to master properly.

[BillieBob]

The EASA requirement, in Part-ORO, has a couple of significant difference from CB's Ops Manual, which reflects the EU-OPS requirement:
ORO.FC.A.250 Commanders holding a CPL(A)

(a) The holder of a CPL(A) (aeroplane) shall only act as commander in commercial air transport on a single-pilot aeroplane if:

(1) when carrying passengers under VFR outside a radius of 50 NM (90 km) from an aerodrome of departure, he/she has a minimum of 500 hours of flight time on aeroplanes or holds a valid instrument rating; or

(2) when operating on a multi-engine type under IFR, he/she has a minimum of 700 hours flight time on aeroplanes, including 400 hours as pilot-in-command. These hours shall include 100 hours under IFR and 40 hours in multi-engine operations. The 400 hours as pilot in command may be substituted by hours operating as co-pilot within an established multi-pilot crew system prescribed in the operations manual, on the basis of two hours flight time as co-pilot for one hour of flight time as pilot-in-command.

(b) For operations under VFR by day of performance class B aeroplanes (a)(1) shall not apply.1. The experience requirements must have been gained in aeroplanes and not any other category of aircraft.

2. The 40 hours in multi-engine operations does not have to be part of the 100 hours under IFR (i.e. it may be gained under VFR)

[BillieBob]

Perhaps some EASA definitions may help to resolve the confusion surrounding the OP's question (SERA = Standardised European Rules of the Air).

Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) Conditions of visibility and distance from cloud equal to or greater than the minima detailed in SERA.5001

Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) Conditions of visibility and distance from cloud less than the minima described in SERA.5001

Visual Flight Rules (VFR) Rules under which flight may take place in VMC as detailed in SERA.5005

Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) Rules under which flight may take place in VMC and must take place in IMC as detailed in SERA.5015

Instrument Flight Time (IFT) The time during which a pilot is controlling an aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments

Note:

Flight under IFR does not necessarily imply flight by sole reference to instruments. A pilot may elect to fly visually but under IFR in VMC

Flight by sole reference to instruments does not necessarily imply flight under IFR. Instrument training may be conducted under VFR in VMC using a means of simulating IMC (simulated IF)

Flight under IFR in any flight conditions requires the pilot to hold an instrument rating

For issue of an ATPL, a pilot must have at least 45 hours instrument flight time, beyond this there is no point in trying to pad the IF hours. For instrument instructional privileges, for example, it is not instrument flight time that is important but flight time under IFR, hence the OP's question. A flight may be conducted wholly under IFR (as are most commercial air transport flights) in which case IFR is logged from off blocks to on blocks, or partly under VFR and partly under IFR, in which case only that proportion of the flight spend under IFR may be logged (obviously). The decision to operate under IFR in VMC (and clear of controlled airspace) is entirely that of the pilot-in-command

[mad_jock]

Whats your take of flying a vfr lesson under ifr in vmc while not being a iri?

[BillieBob]

That it is the mark of a person who lacks the moral integrity to hold an instructor certificate (or, indeed, a pilot licence). However, provided that an IR is held, the selection of flight rules in VMC is entirely at the pilot's discretion. Nevertheless, these things do get checked when application is made for certificates and the competent authority is likely to question the validity of any hours they're not convinced about.

[mad_jock]

its not for a certificate its a requirement for EU-OPS SPA commercial transport.

So as such its just a QA check by the AOC post holder that the regulations have been complied with.

You can't blame these pilots though been instructing for years, and the only jobs they have had a sniff at requires these IFR hours.

To be perfectly honest quite what 100 hours prove IFR I don't know. Its a bit like the PICUS logging as a FO some get their knickers in a right twist about it. Me I never logged a single hour of it as I had PIC time instructing in a tommy VFR. Which there is very little comparison to a pref A multi crew airline operation.

[Level Attitude]

NB: Under EASA an FI requires 200 Hours IFR before they can undertake the course to teach for the IR.


Can someone clarify can i log IFR time for example; on a normal vfr flight as long as I stick to the IFR rules?So long as a PIC is qualified to fly IFR (under EASA some form of IR is required) then any flight which happens to meet both VFR and IFR criteria may be logged as either.

I stick to the IFR rules? I am a flight instructor It is not you who sticks to the IFR rules. The flight must be flown in accordance with IFR - therefore all crew members (including the student) on board would Log IFR.

This is a problem if you are not qualified to teach IFR, especially if the student is actually being taught VFR Nav. You cannot both Log different rules for the same flight.

The one time I think it is permissible for a PPL Instructor to Log IFR time is when they wish to momentarily fly IMC in order to better teach the lesson required by the student. In this case you can only Log as IFR the time (a few minutes) you were actually IMC.

Eg: Climbing through a low cloud layer to VMC on top (with a good horizon) in order to teach turning.

[Centaurus]

I note that some States permit logging of instrument flight time while the aircraft is on autopilot. Why is this so? The original history of logging of instrument flying time was "in cloud" or simulated instrument flight time (under the hood) - the proviso being it all had to be manual flight on instruments and by default became reasonably reliable as a measure of a pilots instrument flying skill. In other words if he had survived a couple of hundred hours hand flying in IMC he must be fairly safe.

That all was changed when some States (following ICAO?) decided that pilots could also log instrument flight time (IMC) while the automatic pilot was doing all the flying. Clearly there was no personal instrument flying skills needed for that. So the whole historical point of logging instrument flight time which in turn was used as a measure of a pilots hand flying experience in cloud, became nullified. And thus it is to this day. It is also not possible to audit instrument flight time because it relies totally on the honesty of the pilot who claims the instrument hours in his log book. The only time an audit is proof positive is during dual instruction, where the instructor can vouch for and certify the fact in the pilots log book. That happens during instrument flying training for initial issue of the candidate's instrument rating.

After that, the system relies completely on the integrity of the pilot who logs instrument flight time in his log book. Not all pilots log honest I/F hours.
IFR logged time is a different animal altogether but is often logged to satisfy some operator's recruiting requirements. It is not an indication of a pilots instrument flying hand flying skills.

IMHO, once a new pilot leaves his flying school audited instrument rating training and has passed his initial instrument rating test, there should be no legal requirement to further log any instrument time - either hand flying or on autopilot. The reason for this is that serves no purpose since future claimed instrument flying hours in the pilots log book cannot be audited - thus leaving it wide open to fraudulent practices. We are talking about an ideal situation, but of course individual State legislative rules differ leaving the system wide open to wholesale forgery of claimed instrument flight time in order to satisfy State rules. And that happens all the time. :ugh:

[flydive1]

Why do you call it fraudulent if it's recorded according to the regulations?

In EASA is IFR time, time flown according to the IFR rules not IMC and in Europe(mostly I believe) has been so well before EASA/JAA.

If FAA decided to go another way, well so be it.

Do you log flight time(TT, PIC, etc) only when manually flying?