Tel Aviv

[binsleepen]

Sky News reporting that Delta and US Airways have cancelled all flights to Tel Aviv until further notice. I wonder what other airlines will do in the light of MH17 and flying into war zones?

Regards

[5000 metres]

From The Guardian:
Gaza crisis: Delta Airlines diverts jet, cancels flights to Israel - live updates | World news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/22/gaza-crisis-john-kerry-and-ban-ki-moon-step-up-attempts-to-broker-ceasefire-live-updates)

Delta Air Lines is canceling all flights to Israel until further notice, citing reports that a rocket landed near Tel Aviv’s Ben Gurion airport, the Associated Press reports:

A Delta Boeing 747 from New York was flying over the Mediterranean headed for Tel Aviv on Tuesday when it turned around and flew to Paris instead. Flight 468 had 273 passengers and 17 crew on board.

Update: the Federal Aviation Administration has not issued any notices regarding flights over the Middle East, according to Reuters, citing the White House. It’s up to individual carriers to decide.

Update 2: Israeli police have reported a rocket landed near Ben Gurion airport, the AP reported:

Police spokeswomen Luba Samri says Tuesday that the rocket caused damage to a house and lightly wounded one Israeli.

[flynerd]

Delta Flight 468, a Boeing 747 with 273 passengers and 17 crew members, diverted to Paris on Tuesday after reports of a rocket near Tel Aviv, the airline said.


Good reason to divert, given present state of affairs.

[Airbubba]

As reported, Delta 468 JFK-TLV has diverted enroute to Paris:

Delta (DL) #468 ? 21-Jul-2014 ? KJFK - LLBG / TLV ? FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL468/history/20140722/0357Z/KJFK/LLBG)

Looks like US Air out of PHL and United from EWR have cancelled flights to TLV as well.

[juice]

@DeltaNewsroom: .@Delta suspends TLV operations until further notice Delta Air Lines Newsroom - News Archive (http://t.co/LsgnmvU7c8)

@JohninJerusalem: Delta, US Air and United cancel NY to Tel Aviv flights - http://t.co/qC6IWBXbFk via @washingtonpost

[CommonI]

According to CNBC, American and United are canceling flights, as well.

[Lizaveta]

According to Fox Business News, United has also suspended all flights to and from Tel Aviv.

[juice]

Yes.

@pdanahar: Confirmed: US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) suspends for 24 hrs all US flights to Tel Aviv.

[juice]

@AP: BREAKING: European airlines Air France, Lufthansa suspend all flights to Tel Aviv over safety concerns.

[juice]

@AirCanada: We have cancelled our Tel Aviv flight tonight AC84 YYZ-TLV and return AC85 TLV-YYZ 23/07. Will continue to evaluate going forward & update.

[AtomKraft]

A victory of sorts, for Hamas?

[A and C]

Norwegian has also suspended flights to Tel Aviv until further notice.

[edmundronald]

Finally, after Ukraine, a measure of sanity.
However heroic the SLF, pilots and crew have not necessarily signed up for the risk of flying into a war zone that is boiling over.

[Walnut]

Whilst there is a big difference between a SAM and the Hamas rockets it is a very high risk for any airline to operate into Tel Aviv at the moment. If anything happened they would be hammered by world opinion

[jortheo]

Cyprus Airways suspended the flights. Was there a strike that was not publicized?

[Halfnut]

From those friendly folks at the FAA -

!FDC 4/3630 ZZZ PART 1 OF 2 SECURITY ISRAEL POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS SITUATION—ISRAEL AIRSPACE DUE TO THE POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS SITUATION CREATED BY THE ARMED CONFLICT IN ISRAEL AND GAZA, ALL FLIGHT OPERATIONS TO/FROM BEN GURION INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT (LLBG) BY U.S. OPERATORS ARE PROHIBITED UNTIL FURTHER ADVISED. A. APPLICABILITY. THIS NOTAM APPLIES TO ALL U.S. AIR CARRIERS OR COMMERCIAL OPERATORS, ALL PERSONS EXERCISING THE PRIVILEGES OF AN AIRMAN CERTIFICATE ISSUED BY THE FAA EXCEPT SUCH PERSONS OPERATING U.S.-REGISTERED AIRCRAFT FOR A FOREIGN AIR CARRIER, AND ALL OPERATORS OF AIRCRAFT REGISTERED IN THE UNITED STATES EXCEPT WHERE THE OPERATOR OF SUCH AIRCRAFT IS A FOREIGN AIR CARRIER. B. PERMITTED OPERATIONS. THIS NOTAM DOES NOT PROHIBIT PERSONS DESCRIBED IN PARAGRAPH A FROM CONDUCTING FLIGHT OPERATIONS WITHIN THE TERRITORY AND AIRSPACE OF ISRAEL WHEN SUCH OPERATIONS ARE AUTHORIZED EITHER BY ANOTHER AGENCY OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT WITH THE APPROVAL OF THE FAA OR BY AN EXEMPTION ISSUED BY THE ADMINISTRATOR. 1407221615-1407231615EST END PART 1 OF 2

!FDC 4/3630 ZZZ PART 2 OF 2 SECURITY OPERATORS SHOULD CALL THE DOMESTIC EVENTS NETWORK (DEN) AT 202-493-5107 FOR AUTHORIZATION. C. EMERGENCY SITUATIONS. IN AN EMERGENCY THAT REQUIRES IMMEDIATE DECISION AND ACTION FOR THE SAFETY OF THE FLIGHT, THE PILOT IN COMMAND OF AN AIRCRAFT MAY DEVIATE FROM THIS NOTAM TO THE EXTENT REQUIRED BY THAT EMERGENCY. THIS NOTAM WILL BE UPDATED WITHIN 24 HOURS, OPERATORS SHOULD CONTINUE TO MONITOR U.S. NOTAMS FOR CHANGES OR UPDATES. 1407221615-1407231615EST END PART 2 OF 2

[atakacs]

Ok - what did I miss ? Is there any indication that Hamas has acquired high-end SAM missiles ? Did the threat significantly increase recently ? Bit mystified by this recent development...

[AreOut]

apparently an F16 was hit (but not downed) over Gaza, which points to a MANPAD that has lighter warhead as a bigger medium-range missile would >90% take it down in that case, but airlines don't want to risk especially after this in Ukraine.

I don't know where Hamas could even find medium-range SAM but Assad, as much as he doesn't like Hamas, would like to take down several israeli planes so he could have proliferated them a SAM or two, nothing is impossible today.

[Red Plum]

A Hamas rocket landed 2 km from Ben Gurion International.
Israel is confident that the airport is safe and it is of note that British Airways is continuing flights from LHR. Some other carriers are re-assessing their flights.

[parabellum]

Don't think Israel will be too bothered, El Al stand to make a fortune. :ok:

[jmmilner]

Both the number and range of rockets used against Israel has increased compared to prior cycles of violence (or whatever better neutral term you would prefer). Iron Dome isn't perfect and even hitting a single U.S. flagged aircraft, loaded with fuel and passengers, no matter the death toll, simply isn't worth the risk. To make matters worse, how about an Iron Dome missile that hits a plane, for whatever reason, or caused part of an inbound rocket to hit a plane, etc.

The political games that would be played after even a near-miss, both within the U.S. and internationally, should be obvious.

[jmmilner]

Don't think Israel will be too bothered, El Al stand to make a fortune.A U.S. news source (CNN) reports

The Israel Airport Authority said the U.S. companies made the decisions on their own, and it urged them to reconsider, saying the airport was safe. "There is no reason that American carriers should stop flying to Israel and thus give a prize to terror," it said.The BBC just ran a headline crawler to the effect that Netanyahu wants Kerry to lift the FAA band.

[aterpster]

After MH 17 an abundance of caution is in order.

What's the difference between Tel Aviv and Donetsk? They are both in war zones.

[aterpster]

parabellum:

Don't think Israel will be too bothered, El Al stand to make a fortune.

Not exactly. There are tours that have been scheduled for months. This is the "inexpensive" season because of the weather.

El Al cannot recover all the tour groups that are now not coming.

That hurts a lot of businesses in Israel.

A couple, who are friends here in California, just returned on Tuesday from a 10 day tour of Israel. Everything was "a okay" so far as they were concerned. The last night their hotel in Tel Aviv posted casual door signs on their rooms, "If you hear sirens, proceed to the secure area."

Lovely.

[hoofie]

I don't know where Hamas could even find medium-range SAM but Assad, as much as he doesn't like Hamas, would like to take down several israeli planes so he could have proliferated them a SAM or two, nothing is impossible today.

I'd imagine the Israelis keep a very beady eye on anything that looks like a launcher moving through Syria towards Lebanon. In 1982 they hammered Syrian SAM batteries in the region and even recently convoys have been destroyed in that area that were allegedly intended for Hamas.

[Metro man]

Remember Israeli airliners have counter measures against missiles, as demonstrated by Arkia in Mombassa in 2002.

[Denti]

Seems after MH17 airlines and the traveling public are much more aware of the risk posed by war zones. And Israel around Gaza is currently a war zone in the opinion of may observers. In Germany Lufthansa halted all TLV flights for 24 hours, Air Berlin did for 36 hours, however for the latter one flights to TLV haven't been mandatory duties for the last few weeks and many crews decided not to risk it and therefore didn't do those rotations, management pilots therefore got a whole lot of first hand experience flying into Ben Gurion.

[mutt]

I don't know where Hamas could even find medium-range SAM but Assad

Thousands of Libyan missiles from Qaddafi era missing in action - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/thousands-of-libyan-missiles-from-qaddafi-era-missing-in-action/)

[hifly787]

Hamas don't have to do anything now. You bet they will be contacted by all sorts of low life scum(even from the so called first world) out to make a fast buck . Look around the world . Even the frigging somalian pirates are armed to the teeth with deadly weapons nowadays. Who sells/gives it to them ?

[AreOut]

"What's the difference between Tel Aviv and Donetsk? They are both in war zones."

russian rebels possess(ed) medium-range SAM(s), huge difference

flights to TLV are out of reach of Hamas MANPADs, in theory the plane could get hit from Hamas rocket or even Iron Dome but in theory it could get hit by a meteorite too

"Remember Israeli airliners have counter measures against missiles, as demonstrated by Arkia in Mombassa in 2002."

yupp, but those are not guaranteed to work every time

[RevMan2]

Any time that you have uncontrolled (and uncontrollable) objects entering controlled airspace is a good time to perform a stringent risk analysis. The FAA appears to have done that.

[SRS]

A good move by the FAA, no doubt under pressure from powerful interests.

[RevMan2]

@SAS
Doubtless there were equally powerful interests opposing the move...

[glendalegoon]

HI.


The El Al missile defense system would not provide defense against an unguided rocket that just happens to hit a plane on the ground (or in the air for that matter). El Al missile defense is against infrared guided missiles.

The Hammas Rockets are unguided and just pointed in a direction and they land where they land and boom. They might hit the airport or an airplane or they might hit a delicatessen or a movie theatre.

I do understand that the IRON DOME system costs 20,000 dollars per intercept. IRON DOME works against artillery or unguided rockets. TO MY KNOWLEDGE it would not stop a MANPAD.

[Espada III]

The FAA are permitting flights now according to reports.

[SeenItAll]

Press Release ? FAA Statement?FAA Lifts Flight Restrictions for Ben Gurion International Airport (http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=16734)

July 23, 2014

The FAA has lifted its restrictions on U.S. airline flights into and out of Israel’s Ben Gurion Airport by cancelling a Notice to Airmen it renewed earlier today. The cancellation is effective at approximately 11:45 p.m. EDT.

Before making this decision, the FAA worked with its U.S. government counterparts to assess the security situation in Israel and carefully reviewed both significant new information and measures the Government of Israel is taking to mitigate potential risks to civil aviation.

The FAA’s primary mission and interest are the protection of people traveling on U.S. airlines. The agency will continue to closely monitor the very fluid situation around Ben Gurion Airport and will take additional actions, as necessary.

The FAA initially instituted the flight prohibition on Tuesday, July 22, in response to a rocket strike that landed approximately one mile from the airport.

[juice]

Sho' nuff -

@BuzzFeedNews: .@Delta, @united, @USAirways say they're resuming flights to Tel Aviv, Israel, after 2-day halt U.S. ends ban on flights to Israel - CNN.com (http://t.co/KGNfR2cBYq)

[AreOut]

so, Hamas rockets suddenly stopped being dangerous for planes?

[sabbasolo]

Realistically, the danger is negligible. The rockets being fired at TLV are without warheads (removed to get the range), so they would have to directly hit a plane on approach or on the ground to do any damage. So far only one rocket fragment has made it as far as 1.6km from the airport (that is what triggered the FAA announcement, since rescinded).

However crews may still be uncomfortable. Nevertheless, all the major scheduled airlines except LH and TK are flying to BGN again now.

[Espada III]

I am surprised at these airlines not flying. TK may have political rather than safety issues to contend with, but LH and its subsidiaries are a major presence at TLV so would assume they would start up again when EASA removed the ban.

[ShotOne]

"I am surprised at these airlines not flying.." Placed in a context where a minute concentration of volcanic ash grounds all flights, how can you be surprised, espada, at airlines making the call when there are lethal missiles flying?

[Nerik]

Missiles were again fired in the direction of TLV this morning.

[acroguy]

I think they are more worried about Iron Dome responses than about the Hamas missiles...

[Sailvi767]

HAMAS has attempted to acquire longer range radar guided missiles. As pointed out the IAF destroyed a inbound shipment not that long ago. Anyone sure that Israel has stopped every single one?

[WhatsaLizad?]

One would think that the lifespan of a SAM radar site in Gaza or the West Bank would be very, very short once it started emitting it's electronic search energy beam.

[parabellum]

In a situation like the current Tel Aviv one it will be the insurance market that will be calling the shots. The insurers can do a number of things, the two most likely are to 1). Suspend all insurance for aircraft flying into Tel Aviv, or, (and more likely in this case), 2). Charge an additional premium for each and every flight. It may be worth the extra for some airlines and not for others. Airlines that lease their aircraft may have to comply with the instructions of the leasing company too.

[Basil]

parabellum, Spot on. Recollect being told off for using an unconventional night arrival to Basrah. The real prob was that, had my company declared that they were operating into a war zone, insurance premiums would have increased.
Same with oil tankers holding SE of Hormuz for as long as possible before going up to load.

[Deep and fast]

Out of interest, what life cover do your companies give you to operate into these places? I just came back from there yesterday and I wonder if we are selling our souls too cheap!

[Mr Mac]

Basil / Parabellum
You are correct about insurance as my father in law was ex ins aviation broker and he has made similar comments to yourselves.
Also the tanker issue is correct, although the real "hot" time was during the Iran /Iraq war with war crews being put on to bring the tankers up to the top of the Gulf. A lot of money made by small number of crew, but a few ships and men were lost, and many strafed. I was out there at the time and it was interesting talking to the crews, and their views of certain allied Navy,s which were out there at the time.

[V1]

I operated into TLV recently and we were held off about 50 miles whilst missiles shot down a rocket near the airfield. We were then vectored in from the North & departed in a similar direction keeping us away from all the action in the South West. My only reservation was the use of landing lights which made us an easier target in the air, and a concern having just refuelled about what we might do with the passengers if the airfield received a "3 minute warning" of incoming rockets. Other than that it was safe enough and I'd have no real safety concerns about operating into there. HOWEVER .....

... With the world up in arms and threatening sanctions against Russia for apparently supplying missiles to Ukrainian separatists for killing 298 civilians on MH17, there seems to be an eerie silence over the killing of some 1200+ civilians in Gaza. Many of these are reported as women and children with UN schools and hospitals being hit.

Sorry, but to me this seems a disproportionate response to 3(?) Israelis killed in rocket attacks.

Our military forces had to deal with people hiding weapons next to schools & hospitals in the Gulf war .... We lived with the frustration and didn't go bombing them irrespectively.

So although I have no real safety concerns operating into there, I do have a moral concern. I don't wish to condone this sort of action, so have declined to operate any further flights there until this stops.

It won't make any difference but makes me feel that I can show my disapproval in a peaceful way by withdrawing my professional services and refusing to operate into Tel Aviv for the time being.

[5000 metres]

Eerie silence? What eerie silence?

[Walnut]

What I find disturbing is that the Iron Dome system can not be infallible (no system is 100% reliable) and as such it only needs one errant missile and then whatever excuses Israel gives it would be in the same position as those that shot down MH17

[valhalla634]

I think the USA has just approved another $250M to improve the Iron Dome system.

We should strive to make it 100% reliable.

And then give exactly the same system to the Palestinians.

[Jorge Newberry]

The Iron Dome wouldn't be much use to them as the Israelis are not firing ground launched rockets at them which can't be aimed accurately at anything smaller than a city

[M-ONGO]

Hamas warned airlines to stay away on Thursday morning. It said it had fired a rocket towards Ben Gurion, but an Israeliairportspokesman said there were no disruptions reported to Thursday’s flight schedules

CY?s night flight to Israel not deterred by Hamas airport threat | Cyprus Mail (http://cyprus-mail.com/2014/08/21/cys-night-flight-to-israel-not-deterred-by-hamas-airport-threat/)

[jmmoric]

So from one perspective we can't let terrorists/freedom figthers (depending on how you look at it) win, and want to keep air traffic flowing.

From another, MH17, they should have stayed out of "the war zone", or been routed around it.

In my opinion those two regions are in the same mess, and I have a feeling both Ukraine and Israel, from a political standpoint, don't like the idea of having terrorists/freedom figthers win by shutting down the airspace.

Now the question is, do we really want to see another aircraft shot down, carrying innocent victims (even though people travelling to Israel may know the risk) Simply because a gonverment want to make a political statement?

Controversial??

[bringbackthe80s]

Guys, for those of you who have been there recently, what is the runway in use for landing and take off in TLV?

[manflexsrsrwy]

21 for arrival & 08 for departure

[heavy.airbourne]

CNBC.com - 20 Aug 2014: Hamas warns int'l airlines from heading to Israel's Ben Gurion Airport (http://www.cnbc.com/id/101923722?trknav=homestack:topnews:15)