Heavy jets VFR?

[TShan1]

Hello all,


A question regarding VFR flights and heavy jets:


If a heavy jet was flying circuits, such as Aer Lingus Jumbo's at Shannon or occasionally the Virgin A340's do at Liverpool, will they log these as VFR flights? Ie log a flight plan from and to Liverpool? Or are they IFR due to their size?


Thanks.

[Dash8driver1312]

...something about IFR flying being by sole reference to instruments and traffic patterns being visual manoeuvres...

[TShan1]

I'm a rank amateur Dash, have no formal training, merely an interest... Hence my question.

[LookingForAJob]

A flight plan can take many forms. There are filed flight plans, often referred to as FPLs, which include a whole load of info about the aircraft, its capabilities, intended route and so on. These get submitted in a very specific format used all over the world - you can see one along with guidance about how the information is entered here (http://www.pilotpointer.com/docs/icao_fpl.pdf). The way that some of the aircraft capabilities are entered and some of the rules for item 18 changed a couple of years ago but the form itself hasn't changed.

And then there abbreviated flight plans, there are different names for some different purposes but for something like circuits for training or short, A-to-A test flights it may be as simple as a phone call to the ATC tower to say "We'd like to do 5 circuits, one rejected take-off, three people on board, call sign will be....".

[TShan1]

Thank you very much for the informative reply, very much appreciated.

[Flying Wild]

In all likelihood those aircraft would file IFR flightplans from their home base to the airport where they are conducting circuits as they'd route there via the airways. They'd land, the trainee would take one of the pilots seats and they would be flying the circuit VFR. Once training was complete, they'd in all likelihood fly IFR back to home base.

[SASKATOON9999]

For base training details like this, an IFR flight plan is filed from departure airport to Shannon, ie EGLL-EINN and then a separate IFR flight plan for the return EINN-EGLL. No flight plans of any sort are filed for the circuit training sortie as aircraft remains within the local traffic zone. Even full stop landings for circuit training do not require a flight plan filing, simply atc Liaison. This is also the case for base training at an airfield of departure.

[Exaviator]

Having done a lot of aircraft flight training in heavy jets and in different parts of the world, I have found the procedure to be the same for both circuits and upper air work.

A call to ATC to advise the aircraft's call sign, endurance and POB along with the area of intended training and planned duration is normally all that is required.

During the training detail should a need arise to revert to IFR, all that is required is an appropriate airways clearance.

[Denti]

In a previous company our 737s were not approved for VFR operation and therefore we had to file IFR flight plans for base training. Quite simple to be honest, it was usually a roundtrip plan from one of our route airports to the training airports, remark that we want to do numerous traffic patterns there, and back to the route airport. We usually didn't stop during base training, trainee changes were done on downwind.

[Piltdown Man]

You must not confuse IFR with IMC. Instrument Flight Rules that come in to effect when VFR can not be followed or where certain airspace is designated as permanent IFR. So you can be visual when following IFR. As it happens, most circuits are, not surprisingly, visual affairs and flown under whatever rules apply at the time. And to be honest, most of trainers I know firstly wouldn't have a clue and the rest wouldn't care - all they want is appropriate weather to fly their detail. Lastly, the guys above have described the mechanics pretty well.

[OhNoCB]

All I have to add is that in some countries it is mandatory to file a flight plan even for circuits. However this would normally be filed as a VFR flight plan.

[TShan1]

Thanks everyone for the info, very much appreciated. Certainly answered my questions.


Just another curious question, are the turns quite tight during these circuits? Ie stepper banking than a general passenger flight? Must be quite fun in a Jumbo/A340 etc...

[Piltdown Man]

Turns would be made using 25-30 degrees of bank, the same as you would use with passengers. I believe the previous posters comments are somewhat irrelevant because you are in a landing configuration. This will allow you to manoeuvre at a lower speed and still provide you with a 30% margin over the stall speed. The circuit size depends on where you are but you'll find that we will often be flying downwind at 1,500' instead if the regular 1,000'.

As for fun it all depends. Most of the short haul guys I know enjoy these things because they regularly fly automatics off, raw data, directors off etc. The long haul guys often appear not to be so keen, possible due to lack of practice.

[Exaviator]

The long haul guys often appear not to be so keen, possible due to lack of practice.

Not in my day...