CRM - Argumentative copilots

[flyboy_nz]

Hello everyone,

As the title states. I had an issue recently in flight with a copilot. He was the PF and he's coming close to upgrade. We are a small single-engine ops company.

The issue was small in regards to best flight path to take to maintain VMC while descending towards our destination. We both had different points of view but the copilot hadn't thought of a couple of 'what ifs'. As I suggested to the copilot about the other option, I also mentioned about the what ifs. Upon doing so, the copilot starting defending his decision saying he would decide what do to when he had got to that point and if it didn't work out as he had planned he would have turned around and tried my way. I felt that this was leaving matters a bit late and I tried to explain to the copilot that he needs to think far more ahead than that. We were still above sterile cockpit altitude and I was keeping an eye on the aircraft. Meanwhile, the copilot got upset (body language and tone of voice gave it away). He eventually said that we shall not talk about this anymore and we can talk about it on the ground. I said yes that's fine. On the ground, it was the same story so I gave up.

Usually as PF, I prefer asking the copilot for his/her input and then make the decision and then I give the reason. I expect the copilots to do the same while they are acting as PF. The ultimate responsibility lies with me, so if the decision they make is unsafe, I show them why and I usually try to make them come up with the better decision or I show it to them.

I have spoken to the training manager about the issue but I have not mentioned the copilot's name. We do get provided with CRM training but it is not up to the same standard as the big airlines. So, if the gentlemen/ladies who fly the jets could chip in as to how to handle these situations better, it would be much appreciated.

Kind regards

[mad_jock]

Ask them "have you considered xxx"

If he still doesn't take the hint

Then suggest an appropriate course of action.

Still refuses

Then "I have control"

Document it and let the training manager deal with it.

Unless you document it, it never happened. Its more than likely your not the only Captain with concerns.

Don't get into discussions and arguments, be a leader but it not your job to sort the FO's issues out.

[Piltdown Man]

There is a reasonable and wise adage -never put the plane where your brain hasn't already been. Our companies expect us to consider the what ifs and maybes well before they might impinge on our operations. We should only be making things up on the spot if the totally unexpected occurs. May I suggest that this is the sort of plonker who will rock up at a closed airport or land on find that there is no fuel available, etc. Stay well clear.

[flyboy_nz]

mad_jock and Piltdown Man, thanks for the replies. I have spoken to the training manager about it. He will get back to me as he is going to ask about it to the other Captains and see if they have had similar issues.

Safe flying and thank you once again.

[greybeard]

The wisdom of inexperience.

All of us probably suffered from it to some degree, I had my "enthusiasm for over confidence" gently sorted out with " does your grand mother and eggs come to mind?".
The author was a very fine Gentleman in all respects and we became firm friends and I worked with him and learnt a lot.

Newer generations seem NOT to take advice, criticism or even instructions when needed in any other light but a " my way is the way"

For my sins I have been on retirement a School bus driver, that attitude is entrenched in 5 year olds, one who told me to get fornicated.
when the matter was discussed with his mother, she said "he is always like that!!!!"

The times they are a changing, however the Cockpit is still a place where that attitude is heading for a hard rock somewhere.

[beamer]

Not just the small operators...................

[Lookleft]

Despite the 40 years of research and training that has gone into CRM it amazes me at how many F/Os still think that CRM is something the Captain is responsible for. I don't think your experience is unusual. On a similar thread but from the F/O's point of view I don't see why CRM is being referred to as 5th generation as pilots on both sides of the centre pedestal haven't come to grips with the first generation of CRM. That is communicate to the other person what you are doing and why you are doing it.:ugh:

[glendalegoon]

Just wondering, is it possible you were wrong?

[BOAC]

Of course it is, but it looks to me as if 'all the boxes were ticked'. The co-pilot coming up to command can be either eager to learn or 'difficult', and the worst generally are the 'passed-over' group.

[His dudeness]

I only ever worked for small outfits...my experience is, that with htese types (and that is with a lot of assumptions on my part since it is very hard - or rather impossible - to 'know' what type he is and you are from just a few words) you have them make their mistakes. If it was indeed a small issue and he would not accept your advice, let him go ahead and then talk about it when on the ground.

Also: quite a lot of times one does not understand how one comes across - I have people tell me that they felt I was aggressive when I was not....

[fireflybob]

Previous thread here covering this type of issue

Stroppy FO - CRM issue (http://www.pprune.org/safety-crm-qa-emergency-response-planning/371055-stroppy-first-officers-crm-issue.html)

[tommoutrie]

Pretend you are him and write down exactly how you think he would recall the event. Approach him and explain that you would like to progress your own flying and whatever happened in the cockpit obviously made him uncomfortable and you would appreciate it if he told you exactly what it was that made that happen. See if he tells you anything useful about yourself and see how it compares to what you wrote down.

It's likely that whatever you were trying to point out was a useful and valid point. But if the person you are trying to impart some knowledge to is unwilling or unable to take it on board then forget it (unless you need to safeguard the aircraft in which case take over). Thing is, you may well learn something about yourself that helps you deal with a situation like that in a more effective way in the future. Not suggesting for a moment that you did anything wrong, far from it, but friction in the cockpit is never good and just because other bloke isn't interested in learning about himself and his craft doesn't meant you shouldn't.

[tommoutrie]

By the way, the situation you describe is absolutely classic for generating difficult CRM situations. Trying to maintain VMC on a flight path probably followed by a visual approach and landing is the most difficult scenario for both pilots to share a mental model. There will be hundreds of tiny decisions taken by the handling pilot with regard to speed, descent rate, trajectory, other traffic, visibility, holes in the cloud, potential hazards, birds, engine failure options, the list is impossibly long, and it all happens far too quickly to communicate all those decisions to the other pilot before every decision is executed. How do you brief your visual approaches to each other? How do you assess in flight visibilty and proximity to clouds? Are you sharing the same techniques when you manage the energy for a visual approach? It's a very complicated scenario - far more so than the SOP, rule based environment that IFR jet flying is structured around. Good CRM is relatively easy when both blokes know exactly what's happening now, next, and what will happen if gates aren't met and limits are reached but stick those same two blokes in a cockpit and get them to fly a visual approach and you will always have differences in the debrief whether those differences be small or large. Which is another way you could approach this problem. Suggest before your flights that you briefly debrief every flight with each other. Not as an exception but as the rule. The flying you are doing is complicated and deserves it.

[despegue]

In the end, it is the PIC who is responsible for the flight.
That is the PRIMARY thing on the Flightdeck.

As a result, when he/ she asks something, it HAS to be done this way, no discussion except in case flight safety is jeopardized as a result. Always BRIEFLY explain the reason for doing something different than the FO's idea.
Discuss and argue all you want on the ground not during an approach.:=
CRM does NOT mean no more authority gradient onboard, although some young " pilots" seem to think that way:ugh:

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Flybe pilots sacked after one called the other 'his bitch' before mid-flight bust-up | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2132088/Flybe-pilots-sacked-called-bitch-mid-flight-bust-up.html)


So just be good little bitches and do as you're told :E

[mad_jock]

Its the single engine which adds a new dimension to the problem you can't afford to do what I do with a weird visual approach profile of let them do it and then debrief afterwards when it invariably doesn't work out very well.

[Centaurus]

In the end, it is the PIC who is responsible for the flight.
That is the PRIMARY thing on the Flightdeck.


One of the classic events I knew about was in small airline in the Pacific that hired instant captains from India on a six month short term contract to fly the 737. One was made an instant chief pilot. Some Australian pilots were already in the airline. Several of these Indian captains were quickly "promoted" to check captains. Approaching the island base at night one of these check captains decided to sit in the RH seat as PM instead of the jump seat. He was route checking the two Australian pilots aboard despite himself having never been to two of the airports on the trip. Company SOP was that the route check captain occupied the jump seat to observe the crew in action. The check captain told the captain to conduct an NDB approach as part of the route check.

At 10 miles from the airport NDB at 210 knots the captain (LH seat) asked the check captain to select Flaps 1 in preparation to be at flaps 5 and 170 knots over the NDB as per Boeing FCTM. The check captain said "No - you are too early for Flaps 1" and refused the captains request. Understandably this annoyed the captain who again politely asked for flaps 1.

Again the Indian check captain acting as PM refused to select flaps 1 and reiterated that there was no need to reduce speed yet. This further annoyed the real captain in the LH seat who was concerned that they were getting close to the NDB and needed to configure for the approach. The captain was now getting desperate at the interference of his command by the check captain PM and said "Do as you are told first officer - and give me Flaps 1 NOW."

The Indian check captain arced up and said "I am a check captain - not your first officer" The end result was a poisonous cockpit atmosphere with the captain having to resort in selecting his own flaps. The landing was completed in the dead of night in stony silence. The following day the captain submitted an incident report to the local one man Director of Civil Aviation, detailing the unfortunate pompous attitude of the newly promoted Indian check captain who had only been with the airline for less than a month. The report was way beyond the limited intellect of the local DCA who ignored the report.

A few days later the captain was in front of the chief pilot for tea and no bikkies. The chief pilot by coincidence just also happened to be the check captain in question. As I said it was a very small airline:E

"You have failed your route check" announced the chief pilot. The Australian captain was stunned at this news. He had been with the airline as a captain for ten years and had never struck this problem before.

"On what basis did I fail the route check" asked the captain? After all, the previous three leg sectors had gone without any problems when the check captain had occupied the jump seat to observe the crew in action. It was only on the last sector that the check captain had turfed out the first officer and decided to act as PM himself.

"How can I pass you on the route check when you write a letter like that to the DCA about me" said the chief pilot aka the check captain?

The captain thought this over carefully and said "how do I pass the route check"

"You tear up the letter and tell the DCA you made a mistake in writing it" said the chief pilot. "Then you pass the route check" he added.

Two different cultures in the same cockpit doesn't always work out especially when CRM means nothing in such an atmosphere...:ugh:

[too_much]

in a FO career he will fly with 1,000 different Captains and learn 1,000 new SOP's

Sounds like this Check Captain thought he was above the law and created his own SOP's e.g. flying overhead the NDB 210 Kts.

In this situation I think the PF needs to be very clear in the approach briefing about what he is going to do and at what speeds heights etc, especially with Captains that are known trouble makers.

Sure I have done approaches with an FO I know and trust very well and the approach brief can be over in a matter of seconds, but then there are these strange folk that seem to question everything you do, and start to overrule for the sake of trying to be the boss.

In every airline there is always one check Captain that is a totally pain in the arse, but that is life.

As for myself, when I was an FO and learning my trade I had a very resigned attitude towards my Captains, as nothing I said or did ever mattered to them, I learnt alot about what you shouldn't do as a Captain to promote CRM and work as a team, the end result was that my FO's would say I am the best Captain they ever flew with, not because I let them get away with murder, but because I knew how to treat them, and discuss even the smallest things with them, get them involved and make them realize I appreciate there input.

[Judd]

the end result was that my FO's would say I am the best Captain they ever flew with,


Don't be fooled. I have known scores of captains who have been told by the first officers they are the best captains they have ever flown with. It's called boot licking flattery so you will give them more sectors. :ok:

[tommoutrie]

They mean that you are the best captain they've ever flown with on that exact date on that sector not including the other captain who is sitting in the jump seat.

[mad_jock]

Mind you its just as bad when they say nothing at all what ever you do as the Captain.

[Luke SkyToddler]

You think you've got problems, you should try being married to your FO ... specially when she's always comparing you to mad-jock :p

[mad_jock]

"your nearly as fat as MJ, luke get it sorted"

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Yes, but is he as long?!

[mad_jock]

That topic never came up, I believe luke had similar views to myself though of its my aircraft I signed for it, and I will fart in the cockpit if I want to.

Bloody good pilot, lukes better half BTW. Some might say the best one in the family ;):p

[flyboy_nz]

Everyone, thank you so much for the replies. Well, even though the matter has been forwarded to the training manager, I am trying to evaluate on things that I could have done better.

1. Pre-flight briefing in regards to decision making. A few of the copilots seem to be under the impression that when they are pilot flying, the ultimate responsibility/decisions are up to them. No where in the SOP is this mentioned but I think I have to politely go over this with the copilots before the start of the day. I am thinking of mentioning something along the lines of 'I will consult you for decisions at all times and I encourage you to speak up but the ultimate decision will have to be made by me as mentioned in the SOPs. You are expected to follow my command unless the safety of the aircraft is compromised'. Maybe you gents have a better way of putting it? I am trying to keep a shallow gradient where they follow my lead but at the same time are not afraid to speak up and the atmosphere is the cockpit is friendly and professional.

2. Pre-flight briefing in regards to maintaining VMC. I think I need to ask them during approach briefing that what is their definition/how are they planning to maintain VMC. Also, I plan to ask them about 'What ifs'. If I have covered all this prior to commencing the descent, I think then both the crews are on the same page and makes life much easier especially when things go wrong.

Anyway, thank you once again for the replies.

[hikoushi]

I wrote the following excerpt while under the influence of a small amount of mercifully wonderful beer, and posted it as advice in the "CRM - Single-Pilot Mentality Captains" thread to a young man on the opposite end of the problem you described. It is probably about the only piece of genuine US Grade-A "Wisdom" I've ever produced (the rest is all pure horse-pucky). Perhaps some of the words may be of use to you in explaining your position and expectations to copilots like the one you describe:



If you are a captain, give your FO's enough space and autonomy to do their job well, and trust (but verify!) them to get it done. Watch what they do when you let them do their job their own way; you just may learn something new. If you don't like it or they aren't up to snuff, take command and change it. But don't pull that trigger over stupid little micromanaging BS things.

If you are a first officer, give the captain enough space and authority to run the ship his own way without constantly second-guessing him on stuff that is more to do with his personal rhythm than flight safety. If it is within the bounds of legality, safety, "standard-enoughness", respect, and reason, learn and try the captain's way of doing things, even if you don't like it, just to exercise your own mental flexibility. Remember that it his ship to run as he prefers to run it. With the exception of the aforementioned points, it is not your place to make him flow with your rhythm, but it IS your place to "be the chameleon" and flow with his. Of the things you learn while doing this, use your judgment to keep what works and chuck the rest. That includes everything I've just written here.

[Luke SkyToddler]

This is all well and good advice until you get into contract work in the third world, and you encounter a situation every other week where the captain is in fact an incompetent, dangerous idiot, who is unreproachable / unfailable / unsackable because of his family connections or whatever.

[hikoushi]

Well, that is true with regards to the old boy networks at work in those so-called "third world airlines" you mention. At that point one may choose to either go with the flow of the culture he has CHOSEN to work within and "play the game", or just take the jacka$$ captain / copilot out back and "adjust" him in the parking lot one evening.

Which discussion is utterly irrelevant here as the original poster's location shows up as New Zealand, which is about as civilized a country as any I've ever seen:ok:.

[mad_jock]

you do know the relationships they have with livestock don't you.

[Denti]

Hmm, wasn't that wales and scotland?

[mad_jock]

Nah they are just spirited amateurs.

The reason why NZ lamb tastes so good is all the love and affection it gets while its alive.

[de facto]

I think I have to politely go over this with the copilots before the start of the day. I am thinking of mentioning something along the lines of 'I will consult you for decisions at all times and I encourage you to speak up but the ultimate decision will have to be made by me as mentioned in the SOPs. You are expected to follow my command unless the safety of the aircraft is compromised'

If you say that to a normal FO in briefing,expect him to give you the look of who the :mad::mad: is this retard?:ok:

[BOAC]

If you say that to a normal FO in briefing, A few of the copilots seem to be under the impression that when they are pilot flying, the ultimate responsibility/decisions are up to them. - simples?:confused:

[fantom]

Many years as a training captain taught me that a short, sharp stick in the FO's eye got their attention.

Mind you: I am 'old school', as you might expect.

[BOAC]

Whatever happened to the forked stick, then? Gorn soft have yer?

[fireflybob]

Standard Brief: Get in Strap in shut the :mad: up and don't touch anything.

[john_tullamarine]

For those of the newer folk who might be affronted - even dismayed - by several of the previous posts, they are standard jokes and, I am sure, offered with a touch of tongue in cheek ...

[BOAC]

This is how the 'older' F/O deals with an awkward younger Captain, by the way.

CRM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRy3fCCR0Yg)

[mad_jock]

I did hear about one crew after the Bitch comment thing.

Day one everything that normally required a "check" response was replied with by "woof" by the FO.

Second day of this, it started to get on the Captains tits.

Third day the FO's meal consisted of pedigree chum dog food, which the captain had brought in and given to the hosties to dish up.

Day 4 it went back to being "check"

[tommoutrie]

OP I think you may be overthinking this. Just put yourself in the other pilots position. What tone of conversation would you like to have with the other bloke before you go flying? Not sure you'd want a message about being inferior rammed down your throat. Briefings are badly named - they are not speeches delivered to the meek. Discuss the task for the day, work problems out together, ask what you've missed, avoid closed questions that shut the other bloke down, listen more than you talk.

Takes a long time to get better, and it's rarely done perfectly..

[Water Wings]

I am thinking of mentioning something along the lines of 'I will consult you for decisions at all times and I encourage you to speak up but the ultimate decision will have to be made by me as mentioned in the SOPs. You are expected to follow my command unless the safety of the aircraft is compromised'. Maybe you gents have a better way of putting it? I am trying to keep a shallow gradient where they follow my lead but at the same time are not afraid to speak up and the atmosphere is the cockpit is friendly and professional.That's not keeping a shallow gradient, that's almost immediately steepening it up to a ridiculous level!
If you say that to a normal FO in briefing,expect him to give you the look of who the :mad::mad: is this retard?:ok:Not only that, all the jobs I've had, if it became known to management that that was your briefing style well, you'd be summoned for a chat rather quickly!


My last job sitting in the LHS geez, I could probably count on one hand the number of times I 'overruled' the FO (for want of a better word). And it doesn't work by shouting "no" or "I am the PIC, I make the decisions." Ever the diplomat, wording like "I have no doubt what you're doing will work but I'd just feel more comfortable if we did this" or "I've done it that way before.....f**ked it up! Lets not repeat my mistakes."

[flyboy_nz]

Cheers guys, I haven't made that briefing to any of the copilots. I probably just needed time to rethink things on my part.

OP I think you may be overthinking this. Just put yourself in the other pilots position. What tone of conversation would you like to have with the other bloke before you go flying? Not sure you'd want a message about being inferior rammed down your throat. Briefings are badly named - they are not speeches delivered to the meek. Discuss the task for the day, work problems out together, ask what you've missed, avoid closed questions that shut the other bloke down, listen more than you talk.

Takes a long time to get better, and it's rarely done perfectly..

This really hit home. Thank you :}

[mad_jock]

treat other people how you want treated your self is the phrase I use in command training.

If you have such a thing where you are CRMI course you might find very interesting.

[Centaurus]

Ever the diplomat, wording like "I have no doubt what you're doing will work but

Like you said, "ever the diplomat." And that means you are lying to him since you obviously have significant doubts that what he intends to do won't work. That is why you have chosen to disagree with him. Far better to cut the hypocrisy and talk straight rather than use weasel words.:ok:

[+TSRA]

I think there can be a balance between the two Centaurus. If you're up high and it can be a teaching moment, why not open with a diplomatic statement? It may drive conversation. However, if you're down in the soup with the computer calling out all sorts of numbers, I think you're right to cut to the chase and discuss it on the ground.

[haughtney1]

This is about the most interesting and informative PPrune thread I've read in a while.
Having sat in both seats, and now moving seats again shortly, it really has got the brain juices flowing.
OP, you didn't I think mention the outcome of your colleagues plan/decision i.e. did everything go according to plan and a safe operation continued VMC to touchdown etc?
Assuming as much, would it not have been worth a minute or two of reflection to get your teammate back on your side? I'm not suggesting abdicating your P1 responsibilities, merely that in a lot of cases its much more effective to nip any issues in the bud at the source with a sensible but concise de-brief. For me it might be as simple as

"hey mate/madam/dude etc etc, nice job, I now understand what you were trying to do, back there at 20 miles and 5000' I was a little unsure which is why I asked and why I made the suggestions I did. In future you might want to consider that the other guy/gal isn't on the same page as you. You and I both know that as P1 I am ultimately responsible for the operation so in that sense I'm just making sure I'm fulfilling our responsibilities to get our pax home safe and sound. All that aside, nice job again..and as its raining, you can do the walk around."

In my experience, the best operators (in both seats) I've flown with have been the ones who know when and where to fight the issues that crop up. From your description, it does sound a little like the PF was defensive due to not having as comprehensive a plan as yours, most likely though, once on the ground, instead of taking the opportunity to learn, they would have remained focussed on being upset/defensive rather than learning from your experience and more thoughtful and reasoned plan.

[greybeard]

"and as its raining, you can do the walk around."

Loved that bit

:ok::ok::ok: