Low F16 on Finals at Waddington Airshow

[ranger703]

Turkish F16 EXTREMELY low landing RAF Waddington airshow - YouTube

I am assuming that the traffic lights were at red on the main road for the landing. Why were all the spotters allowed to be in the undershoot? As controllers and airfield managers are we responsible in any way or is this a police matter?Waddington has always been bad for this sort of thing. Is it going to take a fatality until something is done?

Open to the floor for discussion.

[Minesthechevy]

NannyStates R Us.

Accidents happen all the time, big deal, get over it. IMV it is the /personal/ responsibility of the onlookers to ensure that their heads don't get in the way of the aeroplanes, and not the responsibility of controllers, managers, etc.

[Simplythebeast]

I dont know if it is still there but there used to be a mound near the runway threshold at RAF Valley that was known as suicide hill. Always plenty of people willing to risk all for an exciting encounter with landing aircraft.

[Simplythebeast]

Minesthechevy......Until someone gets injured/killed and your local friendly noWin no Fee leeches get involved.

[BOAC]

'Many' years ago an ?F4? bounced its wheels on the fence in the undershoot of 09 at RAF Leuchars. The area was significantly under-populated for quite a while thereafter.

[dagowly]

The only way this can be prevented is with police input. Why the air show co-ordinators haven't done it with evidence such as this is beyond me.

[Burnie5204]

Waddo are legally covered - Unless they've been removed then I distinctly remember that there are MASSIVE signs saying things like "NO PEDESTRIANS BEYOND THIS POINT" "DANGER FROM LOW FLYING AIRCRAFT" "DO NO PROCEED"

Yet every year they do it and every year the same thing happens.

Last year - Eurofighter
This year - F16
Next time???

[west lakes]

So under what legal power could the Police move folk from that area that is part of the public highway?

[ranger703]

Ok, I will put it another way. I am the controller in the tower, I can see that there are people in the undershoot and indeed, from other videos posted, people on ladders at the fence,directly on the centre line. I clear an aircraft to land,knowing fine that these people are where they are, regardless of whether I advise the aircraft or not, the aircraft subsequently approaches too low and as a result hits one of the spotters who as a result dies.

At the subsequent BOI are you telling me that the clearance to land from the controller would not be a contributory factor? I certainly would not be happy being the tower controller!

Are the people in the undershoot really aware of the potential danger and are you telling me that if they were injured they would not try to sue the asses of the airshow authorities??

[west lakes]

The onus if any rests with the owners/operators of the airfield (MOD) as it is a known issue (there is a link to last year's near miss with a Typhoon in another part of Pprune).

If all they can appear to do is erect warning signs then it is highly likely that this is the only legal option open to them.

From another POV it could be said that the onus actually rests with the owners/operators to ensure that aircraft are not, normally, permitted to fly that low on the approach at that location

[obwan]

Can't see what all the fuss is about myself.:D

[fujii]

Low F16 on Finals at Waddington Airshow

There it is again, "finals." Being a foreign pilot, he probably didn't know which one of the finals to use.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Maybe we should get this German pilot over?

D2JM27LGwd4

[eastern wiseguy]

Ranger. I am of the opinion that cleared to land means that the runway is free from obstructions and/or ( in general) traffic. Obstructions (frangible or otherwise) outside of the fence or penetrating the horizontal surfaces are the responsibility of the Aerodrome Operator. It is incumbent upon THEM to make sure that there are none OR that they are properly NOTAMN'd . The responsibility for accepting a clearance rests with the pilot.

However as my old Boss used to drill in to us "ATC are never blameless"

[Pontius Navigator]

It is outside the fence therefore action will lie with the civil police.

As the controller, if he considers the approach to be fouled then he should not clear the aircraft to land or to instruct the aircraft to land long. It used to be the case that aircraft would be instructed to land long if the threshold barrier had not been de-riged.

Clearly, if the FJ cannot land long then the onus transfers to the pilot to go around and for the controller to call civpol.

Coningsby has the same problem only 575 feet to the 25 numbers.

[west lakes]

Of course it could have been a deliberate action by the pilot to pass that low over the crowd, there is no doubt I think that he was below the glideslope

[DaveReidUK]

Are the people in the undershoot really aware of the potential danger and are you telling me that if they were injured they would not try to sue the asses of the airshow authorities??I would imagine that most of the individuals in shot are enthusiasts, and even those who aren't are probably capable of working out that being hit by an F-16 travelling at 140kts is going to ruin their entire day.

[Minesthechevy]

Westlakes:

<<So under what legal power could the Police move folk from that area that is part of the public highway?>>

Many. Trust me on this.

[Burnie5204]

So under what legal power could the Police move folk from that area that is part of the public highway?

To start with the constable could start with simply ask them to move off the centreline using powers of persuasion (a cop can ask you to do pretty much anything they like without needing a legal power as you can choose to comply or refuse)


But if you're looking for offences or legislative powers then you can start with Actions endangering safety of aircraft (under ANO) for one (approach surface infringement which is a safety specification). Constables have power to use reasonable force to prevent the offence (i.e. move the people on)

For anyone between the hedgeline and the field boundary then they're on the highway (as the legal highway includes footpaths and verges) and must obey the directions of a constable to proceed in a particular direction.

[phildan89]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVfaTgPwxXU

3 different point of view of this...
Crazies for standing there if you ask me!

[chevvron]

You guys obviously haven't seen videos of 747s landing at St Maarten if you think that was dicy.
At Halton in the mid 60s, people often used to park their cars in the undershoot of runway 02 when we were gliding. I have a memory of one approach I made in a Sedburgh where there were children sitting on the roof of a car and a man was snatching them off the roof as I passed over when landing. Some of the other guys would stuff the nose down for excess speed and descend low over the field across the road from the airfield, then pull up over the road to land. Funny how the local bus company would always switch to single deck buses in summer but would run double deckers for the rest of the year.

[Talkdownman]

chevvron, as a Chesham local, do you remember the fatal accident at Bovingdon when an aircraft hit the Bovingdon-Chesham 316 bus at the 04 threshold? Traffic lights were installed after that, and I believe London Country switched to GS single-deckers. I remember seeing the aftermath but don't know what type of aircraft was involved. The bus might have been an RLH.

[Brian 48nav]

Malc, Didn't know you were a bus man too ;) .

[chevvron]

An RLH is the 'low' double decker isn't it? As far as I'm aware, they were used mainly for the 336 Chesham - Watford service via Amersham.
I only remember travelling to my aunt's place (originally Bourne End, later Boxmoor) in single deck London Transport (green) buses or Rover coaches, I don't recall double deckers on this route.

[7of9]

Another angle on that approach!

https://mobile.twitter.com/warrenadrake/status/486547490997817344

[Tashengurt]

Westlakes:

<<So under what legal power could the Police move folk from that area that is part of the public highway?>>

Many. Trust me on this.

Really? Do tell.


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[Minesthechevy]

Google is your friend.

However, start with the Public Order Act 1986, the RTA Acts (various), and Criminal Justice Act 1967.

I used to be quite involved in vehicular Rights of Way issues but moved out of the UK 8 years ago, so have not bothered updating my brain over these things.

Bottom line, if Plod wants you moved on or stopped, he'll find some law which gives him the excuse.

[Tashengurt]

Google is your friend.

However, start with the Public Order Act 1986, the RTA Acts (various), and Criminal Justice Act 1967.

I used to be quite involved in vehicular Rights of Way issues but moved out of the UK 8 years ago, so have not bothered updating my brain over these things.

Bottom line, if Plod wants you moved on or stopped, he'll find some law which gives him the excuse.

As a plod. No he won't. Not if wants to keep his job.


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[west lakes]

Bottom line, if Plod wants you moved on or stopped, he'll find some law which gives him the excuse. As did many by using the Terrorism Act to prevent folk taking photos in public places, confiscation memory cards (or film) of getting shots deleted.
This sort of action leads to a invite to a no tea no biccies interview. as would trying to move the folk in the video, might get away with it for one or two, but that number would quickly lead to official action against any officer involved and 15 minutes of fame on Youtube

[360BakTrak]

he probably didn't know which one of the finals to use.

I wonder if he was low downwinds and base legs as well?:E

[Burnie5204]

I'll just quote myself from page 1 of this thread.

To start with the constable could start with simply ask them to move off the centreline using powers of persuasion (a cop can ask you to do pretty much anything they like without needing a legal power as you can choose to comply or refuse)


But if you're looking for offences or legislative powers then you can start with Actions endangering safety of aircraft (under ANO) for one (approach surface infringement which is a safety specification). Constables have power to use reasonable force to prevent the offence (i.e. move the people on)

For anyone between the hedgeline and the field boundary then they're on the highway (as the legal highway includes footpaths and verges) and must obey the directions of a constable to proceed in a particular direction.

And actually the posters further up were right - if a constable feels that they need you to do something then there is usually a law that allows them to do it. If there's a law that allows them to do it then they wont be losing their job.

And to the person above commenting on the overzealous use of S44 terrorism act against photographers - it didnt result in 'hats on no biccies' interviews it actually resulted in Parliament saying "it was too wide ranging" and they revoked it and brought in an amended version which tightened up the circumstances in which it could be used

[Richard Taylor]

Given he was the Solo Turk, am I allowed to say it looked like a close shave? :p

[LXGB]

Got to agree with Tashengurt on that one.

[LTNman]

BBC News - RAF Waddington plane spotters get Typhoon shock (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-23296285)