Birmingham drops Nats

[Aviationator]

Does anyone have any rumors about what is happening with Birmingham after they decided to not renew with Nats? Are the ATCO staying, or leaving with Nats?

[T250]

This is extremely old news... :\

[airac]

What NATS leaving Birmingham ?
Next thing you know SERCO will be out of Coventry:uhoh:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

As most on here appreciate, you can't train controllers over night so whatever happens one assumes ATC will remain the same...?

[Sonnendec]

Well, NATS in its joint venture as FERRONATS in Spain, has trained all of the controllers in 10 towers "overnight". So expect the worse.

[chevvron]

Not the same Sonnendec, Birmingham has its own radar approach control not just tower.

[LadyAtco]

NATS are about to lose Gatwick.


To DFS !!!

[LadyAtco]

NATS are about to lose Gatwick to ...................DFS


I've already sold my shares

[Talkdownman]

That's all we know sofa...

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Well they sure won't train Gatwick ATCOs overnight and it's Tower only there.

[ZOOKER]

All this is very sad to hear, EGBB with it's history as an RTU and 'KK with it's accolade as the 'busiest single-runway airport'. :uhoh:

[Tim91]

Can anyone tell any more about the EGKK rumours dropping NATS?

This is first I've heard about it and I'm very curious :)

[BigDaddyBoxMeal]

Well they sure won't train Gatwick ATCOs overnight and it's Tower only there.

Because of course they can just train Birmingham ATCOs "overnight" ???

[LostThePicture]

I've already sold my shares

An entirely rational decision. After all, it's well known in NATS that profits are almost completely driven by the airports side of the business.... Isn't it?

LTP

[airac]

Pensions, pensions, pensions.

[Mantovani]

Most airport operators are only interested in the bottom line. That is why using airports is almost always a painful experience.

[T250]

Most airport operators are only interested in the bottom line. That is why using airports is almost always a painful experience.

In terms of ATC, aren't we right to believe that all ATC personnel CAA licensed whether NATS or otherwise are all of the same or at least comparable ability and competence.

So really whoever the ATC provider is at BHX and LGW their level of service is the same, but the price they offer their services at is different.

To say otherwise is to open a can of worms is it not?

[TCAS FAN]

LTP

"After all, it's well known in NATS that profits are almost completely driven by the airports side of the business.... Isn't it?" - unless anything has radically changed over the past two year the answer is "NO".

NATS is divided into two companies NATS Services (NSL) and NATS En-route (NERL). The real money spinner for NATS is NERL.

Since the last recession most (if not all) airport operators have been screwing NSL into the ground over costs, demanding more for less. Rumour has it in NATS that the last Manchester Airport renewal was taken on at a loss.

With Brum going (next year?), Gatwick possibly going, one could speculate (as is widely done among NSL staff) that NATS would love to sell off NSL. In the world that we live in today their overheads (go visit CTC at Whiteley) are pricing them out of an ever shrinking UK market. Whether their Iberian enterprise will save the day remains to be seen. There may be a future for NSL, but I sincerely doubt that it is the UK airports market.

[Mantovani]

It is true the controllers the ATC operators employ will all have the same appropriate licences but that doesn't mean the service the operators deliver is the same.

If all you are interested in is the bottom line you will invariably get a second or even third rate service.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

A controller who might be a whizz-kid at one unit may not make it at another so all ATCOs are not alike. A controller who fails to make the grade at a busy unit may be perfect at somewhere quieter. I'm not saying that this has anything to do with Birmingham or Gatwick I am merely stating a fact for T250.

[Squawk 7500]

DFS might not be such a bad company to work for

[TCAS FAN]

Ja und zey have vays of making you squawk!

[LostThePicture]

@TCAS FAN

I get the feeling the heavy sarcasm in my post wasn't entirely evident to you..... :rolleyes:

Keep up the good work!

[LadyAtco]

You blokes do make me smile.

If a new contractor took over the Birmingham or Gatwick ATC contract, TUPE (Transfer of Undertaking {Protection of Employment}) would ensure that all salaries and terms and conditions were replicated.Pensions are not covered so the lovely NATS final salary (for those still privileged) would be replaced by a money purchase scheme.But, it would be similar.

ALL of the ATCOs on the unit would transfer.Where else could they go ?NATS don’t have spare vacancies and most ATCOs have deep roots and families which want to remain in the respective area.

There has never been an unsuccessful transfer of ATC contracts (Don’t count Boscombe – that was a disgraceful stitch up).All transfers have involved the majority of ATCOs transferring.

[On the beach]

Having worked in 6 different countries, I can reliably inform you that the standards in all 6 are equally as good. Where the differences occur is in the execution of the control. A crew of controllers from diverse ATC backgrounds is, in my humble opinion, far superior to one comprised solely of home grown "talent".

Different countries have developed different strengths, be it tactical flow control, use of ADS-B, pilot education programmes, remote approach control etc all bring something unique to controlling.

Maybe, NSL losing a few contracts will allow new companies with fresh ideas to be allowed to show how ATC can be improved in the UK.

I have worked in the UK and know that NATS/NSL can be very reluctant to embrace new technology/procedures. Let's hope the contracts are awarded to some of the innovators.

[Eric T Cartman]

@ LadyAtco
All transfers have involved the majority of ATCOs transferring.

Not correct - only one stayed at Liverpool in 1982 and none stayed at Prestwick in 1993. I don't think many, if any at all, stayed at Hurn either.
Of course, times have changed and your premise regarding vacancies etc. may be correct but with little slack in unit complements nowadays, it only needs a handful to go to cause big problems. SRATCOH has seen to that ......

[LadyAtco]

You are right Eric, but being much older you have a better memory than me.

However, I was involved with the Prestwick transfer and you are right, NATS walked out at midnight on the 1st April and refused access to the incoming contractors to the tower until 23:59.Therefore CAA SRG had to issue green field validations to the interim Serco ATCOs.Bloody irresponsible and very dangerous.But it worked.

I was also involved in the Hurn handover in 1985 when Airwork took over from NATS/CAA (and they did throw the Landrover keys into the grass !!)Again bloody irresponsible and very dangerous. But it worked.

[Level bust]

I believe a couple of ATCOs have already left Birmingham for other NATS units.

[Nimmer]

The one thing I have ever worked out about an ATC contract is what the staff do, and what they surely could possibly do.

Yes their terms and conditions are TUPE'd across to the new employer, but I believe these are just valid for a year.Now the new ATC provider needs those controllers to run the operation.

Personally if I was among the group of controllers staying at Birmingham I would be trying to organise a cohesive bunch that stick together and demand new terms and conditions, such as payment for every new controller we train and validate.

I know there will be rules and regulations concerning industrial action allowed etc, however the bottom line is the new company need you, the airport can't run without controllers, so stand up for yourselves.

If that means you don't train any new recruits then be prepared to do that and fight, the terms and conditions could be the best in the country, if controllers stick together.

If on day 1 no planes land or depart from Birmingham this will make the news and the new company's share price takes a hit!!!


Or perhaps I am just living in a little bubble and the reality is it doesn't work like that, anyone care to enlighten me?

[Fly Through]

Stick together??? Controllers???? You always make me smile, Nimmer ;)

Well it worked at Liverpool in 99 when Peel took over.

FT

[chevvron]

When SERCO took over at an airfield in the south east of England, I was told they sacked ALL the controllers on the friday, then offered new contracts to about 50% of them the following monday. I was told this by one of the controllers who stayed on. This was in the days before TUPE of course, when employers weren't required to offer equal T & Cs.
What NSL need to do is replace all the controllers who wish to remain with NATS with controllers who are about a year off retirement.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<NATS don’t have spare vacancies >>

Wow.... things have improved since I left. The major airfield where I worked was never up to compliment, nor was TC. Glad it's all better now!

[Level bust]

The major airfield where I worked was never up to compliment

Depends what you call compliment. What NATS think is a proper compliment is different to everyone elses. It now boils down to cost, the Unit may be up to compliment, but not neccesarily what it would have been a few years ago.

[Brian 48nav]

I could be wrong ( he normally is I hear the cry! ) but IIRC CAA lost the Hurn contract to IAL in 1979. IAL had a 7yr contract and lost it to Airwork in '86.


I can associate certain names with the changes ie Graham Lake, who I knew at LATCC, moved from JJ to work for IAL at HH. My old nav' mate Jeff Berryman (RIP ) started at HH with Airwork in '86 etc etc.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Depends what you call compliment. >>

The agreed staff numbers.

[2 sheds]

Lady ATCO
I was also involved in the Hurn handover in 1985 when Airwork took over from NATS/CAA (and they did throw the Landrover keys into the grass !!)Again bloody irresponsible and very dangerous. But it worked.

Your memory is at fault. The change of ANSP at Bournemouth Airport in 1985 was from Serco-IAL to Airwork. The latter was unable to fully undertake the contract on the starting date and a separate IAL watch stayed on for a further month so that Airwork did not fall flat on their corporate face - AND the IAL staff trained those who were on the unit before the start date. No keys were thrown into the grass.

2 s

[Defruiter]

I heard that any controllers who were at Birmingham before 2000, or it may have been before PPP, and don't want to stay there have to be redeployed within NATS. Anyone employed after that date either transfers over or goes elsewhere outside of NATS. Anyone able to confirm that?

[GAPSTER]

NATS and a proper compliment? I don't think

[eastern wiseguy]

COMPLEMENT

a number or quantity of something required to make a group complete.
"at the moment we have a full complement of staff"


Not COMPLIMENT


thank you .( I KNOW I am getting old now)

[GAPSTER]

Was my point too EW....though a little more obliquely put than yours.

[GAPSTER]

....or should I say "you'res"???

[eastern wiseguy]

I DID spot it Gapster......:)

I'm turning in to my old teacher..........:(

[Level bust]

I do find it sad when the only comments that people can make are regarding speling and grammer what they use.

Get a life and leave the rest of us to make worthwhile comments about the subject being discussed.

[GAPSTER]

Yeah righto

[FlyOnTheWall2014]

In terms of ATC, aren't we right to believe that all ATC personnel CAA licensed whether NATS or otherwise are all of the same or at least comparable ability and competence.

So really whoever the ATC provider is at BHX and LGW their level of service is the same, but the price they offer their services at is different.

To say otherwise is to open a can of worms is it not?
Yep, and everyone who passes their driving test is as capable as Michael Schumacher. Players in the Sunday league are capable of playing football, but they probably aren't cut out for the First Division (BB) or the Premier League (KK).

[T250]

Thanks for your condescending remarks.

What I was trying to get at is there is a common perception that NATS ATCOs are somehow 'better' or more 'advanced' than those provided by SERCO or HIAL or the various other ANSP providers.

Whatever you may wish to believe, it cannot be true for the very fact that to validate at any airport requires the bare competency to be a valid ATCO as well as a proper and competent understanding of the airport in which they work in.

Therefore the point I make is any (ADV/ADI rated) ATCO in the UK approved by the CAA could have the potential to validate and operate at Gatwick or Birmingham whether they be a NATS employee or not - there is nothing better or worse in controllers that are NATS or non-NATS. Get over yourself.

[airac]

you cannot be serious:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[2 sheds]

Somewhat ironic to quote Michael Schumacher as an example of whatever is being claimed of NATS controllers!

2 s

[Antek]

I see you list your location as Planet Earth. A bit unlikely I feel. Your views as expressed in post 45 suggest you do not belong to the real world!

[ZOOKER]

"The Premier League (KK)".
Has it got it's 'Band 5' status now then? :E

[Vercingetorix]

FlyOnTheWall
Succint, correct but your post will disturb all the loveys who think that all are equal in ability and brainpower in this eqalitarian world.

Antek, Fly does live in the real world where ability to validate matters. Apart from the ATC world take a look at the RAF pilot selection. Those that can go on to be fast Jet Jockeys whereas those that can't reach that standard fly transport aircraft or even, heaven forbid, become Navs or ATC .

:ok:

[Squawk 7500]

As with most things in life, you get what you pay for

[airac]

before this descends into it's all the Nazi's fault
Those that can do.
Those that can't, teach.
Those that can't teach examine.
and those that like winding people up ???
post on PPRUNE ;)

[Vercingetorix]

airac
Succinct
:D:D:D:D

[Echo123]

I always understood the rule to be: those that can't teach, administrate.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Not quite... it goes "Those who can, do, those who can't, teach; those who can't teach, manage!

<<<for the very fact that to validate at any airport requires the bare competency to be a valid ATCO>>>

Dream on; in my experience, which included many years of training ATCOs, one needed a whole lot more than "bare competency" to validate.

[T250]

So according to your remarks and the thesis that they purport, only ATCOs from NATS could ever validate at LGW?

Well let's hope that you're proven wrong when the contract changes, as if it does, I'm sure you will be :ok::oh:

[Nimmer]

Stop taking the bate T250, I can see you have chips on both shoulders.

However it is a fact that not all controllers are capable are validating at all units, it's the same in everything. Now you maybe right, others may validate at Gatwick, if they lose th contract, however having worked in In a non Nats unit overseas, sometimes people validate because they are needed as there is a shortage, and not because they can actually do the job to any great ability.

Just think about sport, some are better than others.

[BwatchGRUNT]

Some people validate because they just fit in, are good looking or just lucky.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

T250 I have trained ATCOs at three airfields, both at home and abroad and I made no suggestioin that only NATS ATCOs could validate at Gatwick. Several non-NATS controllers came to Heathrow and validated quite quickly. I merely pointed out that you need more than the bare essentials to be a validated ATCO. Your profile suggests that you are a dancing clockwork mouse pilot so what experience have you to bring to this discussion?

[Brian 48nav]

'Some people validate... good looking or just lucky'.


Blimey! I've been rumbled ;).


Anyway it was all 'Window job's' fault at LL, can't blame him for my other units :O.

[chevvron]

I seem to remember when Airwork got the contract at Boscombe Down, not a single Airwork controller (5?) was considered ready for validation on changeover day even though every effort was made to train them and one or two of the NATS controllers changed sides.
I can envisage the same happening at Gatwick if DFS bring in their own controllers.

[Squawk 7500]

I understand that the pre-PPP guys are guaranteed alternative employment within NATS, but as more contracts are lost, is there going to be space within the company? Does anybody know how many BB guys got reposted to other airfields?

[Not Long Now]

At least one went from BB to KK....

[Squawk 7500]

Anyone know what kind of salaries EGBB are offering to the new guys?

[Charlie23]

Salaries vary depending on experience etc. Some NATS people at other Units resigned to come to Brum and work for BAATL and get the location they wanted. They have recruited all they wanted and all have a full setoff licenses. All Pre PPP people got a sensible offer to move if they wanted and others have applied elsewhere if they wish to move. Controllers are still moving to Gatwick as planned but will now work for DFS from next Oct. Fact. All TUPE NATS staff seem to be well catered for but the transition will rely on borrowing staff back from NATS or it will not work!

[Nimmer]

How to you borrow staff back, and for how long?who are those staff actually working for? Ie who pays there wages?

Where do those staff go after their 'loan' period has finished?

Do NATS charge BAATL a large fee per controller borrowed? Or do they not need controlling staff?

Very interesting questions, and a obviously a tricky situation.

[joemossup]

At least two are being posted to EGGD (trust of a promise)

[FlyOnTheWall2014]

My mate down the pub says tomorrow is the big day, buh buy NATS and let the BAATL commence.

[Flitefone]

It looks like the transition has happened as planned from end March, no dramas and setting a precedent for other airports. All credit to the planners.

Will be interesting to see who next, and how NATS react in an effort to retain their business.