Navigating Concorde

[Allbore]

Hi there,

I don't suppose there is a simple answer to this question but what the hey! :D

I understand that concorde is not navigated by 'modern' means, i.e. GPS etc but by a different method. Is that correct?

Could someone highlight the technique(s) used and why GPS etc is not used?

thanks

AB

[HugMonster]

Ever heard of INS? It's the method by which most airliners (up to about 15 years ago) navigate. Retrofitting GPS would be both expensive and (in most cases) unnecessary. Concorde would be doubly so because of the problem of external aerials.

Question answered?

[Allbore]

Yes, Thanks,

Even it you did come across as a bit abrupt, I did know about INS so maybe i should have just asked for aome web based info on that intead.

All the same thankyou for the reply

REgards

AB

[BEagle]

Surely with Concorde, it's just a question of 'Ready, aim, FIRE'? I.e. point it at USA or UK, tap the heaters and that's it.....?


(Just joking, Les B!)

[PPRuNe Radar]

From a Concorde website .....

The flight deck accommodates the pilot and co-pilot side by side with a third crewmember seated behind the pilot on the starboard side. The automatic flight control system was developed by Thales Avionics (formerly Sextant Avionique) and BAE Systems (formerly Marconi).

The primary navigation system, an AC Delco Carousel IVA, consists of three inertial navigation systems each with a dedicated digital computer. The navigation suite also includes two VHF omnidirectional radio rangers linked with an instrument landing system (VOR/ILS), an automatic direction finder (ADF), two distance measuring equipment (DME), and a navigation marker. The aircraft is equipped with two RCA AVQ-X weather radars, two Thales AHV-5 radio altimeters and a Rockwell Collins terrain collision avoidance system (TCAS).

[411A]

Hmmm...lots of good 'ole Yank navigation kit on the proud Brit bird, I see.:D

[ICT_SLB]

From memory, the ADI & HSI (note the old nomenclature) are good old electro-mechanical Collins FD-108s like the "Classic" 747s and almost any other Sixties era aeroplane.

BTW TCAS is Traffic and Collision Alerting System. They probably also have GPWS by Honeywell (ex-Sundstrand) for Terrain warning.

[BEagle]

....and what kit is in the 'good 'ole Yank' SST then, eh 411A? Sorry - forgot. You couldn't come up with the goods, could you? But it didn't stop the lies and exaggerations perpetrated by your self-protective aerospace industry from trying to smear this Anglo-French masterpiece, did it??

[Big Kahuna Burger]

411A never has his tongue in his cheek, he has his head up his ar$e

[captchunder]

Don't forget that the flight time is relatively short for these guys, so the drift from an older system like INS is still going to be quite a low number

[411A]

BEagle

The Concorde operates into the USA with an exemption, and if the EU had not backed down on hushkits...it would have been .....
BANNED.

Sorry to say, old bean, but the USA still calls the tune....like it or not.

[HugMonster]

Yes, 411A, we're used to rampant protectionism from the USA.

That's why the ban on Japan getting involved in Nav gear.

That's why the disgraceful report into the Roselawn accident slated the ATR totally unjustifiably, and skated over the lack of anything remotely approaching professionalism by the crew.

Almost all decisions since GWB came to office have been to the direct benefit of the USA, no matter what it costs the rest of the world. Ever hear of a phrase "I'm alright, Jack!"?

[Brit312]

Pprune-- a good reply, but Concorde is one of those old aircraft, which still carries a Flight engineer and calling him a 3rd crew member will really get them annoyed. In fact when Concorde first went into service the pilot's licence was stamped as " Only valid if accompanied by a valid Flight Engineer"
Navigation is by good old fashioned triple INS, which can be updated once the aircraft is in range of a VOR/DME site.
Yes the electronic system are American, but as the old saying goes " Its not the equipment you got, but what you do with it that counts" ;)

regards Brit312

[411A]

[sorry 411A ... this is "Tech Log", not "Jet Blast". You've posted three times on this thread, and so far, NONE of your postings have anything to do with the original question posed; rather you're obviously posting simply to stir the pot. If you would like to post according to the topic, please do so, but please stop using others' threads to "get your jollies".]

[twistedenginestarter]

Allbore

I think you have a slight misunderstanding here. GPS is modern but is not a replacement for inertial navigation systems like Concorde has. GPS is helpful - in fact it is wonderful in 99% of situations - but it can not be a primary aid whereas INS can. It works anytime anywhere.

Just to emphasize a point already made, Concorde's INSs are corrected by VOR/DMEs. I think it's actually the DME bit.

McD I don't know who you are but interfering with other people's postings is extremely rude and if justified ever is certainly only justified in extremis.

[Captain Stable]

Most INS systems can update themselves from VOR/VOR, VOR/DME, DME/DME etc.

DME/DME is generally the preferred method since it is far more accurate than any other fix method.

By the way, twisted - McD is a PPRuNe Moderator. Surprised you haven't come across her before. She is known, liked and respected by the vast majority of PPRuNers who have encountered her, both here and face to face. I'll stake a fair amount of my salary that 411A's post warranted the edit.

[twistedenginestarter]

I'm sure McD is a really nice person and I'll buy the first round if we ever meet. However I still stand by my principle that moderators have never been democratically justified here by the PPRuNe Community. On more than one occasion I've asked why we have them but never is there an answer.

Maybe she took exception to 411A but I'll wager my salary 411A was well withing the bounds of reasonable banter and if McD disapproves then she should look elsewhere in the wonderful universe of the World Wide Web. If 411A wants to take a few snipes at Concorde (with some substance to what he is saying) then I don't easily see why some stranger should wade into our conversation uninvited and start laying down rules - their rules. America may be the Land of Free Speech, but so is good old Blighty.

There is already a remedy for prattish posts - people can just ignore them. If on the other hand ppruners want to take issue then who says a thread (or any human discussion) needs to stay on-topic?

McD - tell me who you think 411A was hurting. Before you press the button next time think this- if this were in a pub would someone stick one on 411A. If not then just forget it.

[411A]

Hmmm, clearly "some" here are very sensitive when Concorde is mentioned. Yes, a wonderful bird, and is unique...BUT, it certainly is NOT the nirvana of aviation.
And, if a little strip of tin causes BIG problems (as the French investigation indicates)...not too reliable either. Especially when we can clearly see that the AirFrance aeroplane was being operated overweight....just like any aeroplane....CANNOT be abused, or it will bite.
In addition, it was mentioned that GPS cannot be used as primary navigation. Actually, it very definately CAN, at least with US registered aircraft. The JAA may indeed have other ideas, but suspect that they are just jealous that the system is not....theirs.
Having said this...triple INS works just fine, especially when they are Delco or Litton units. Seem to remember the last bit of "reliable" navigation kit to come out of the UK....was the Marconi Doppler.

[M.Mouse]

twistedenginestarter

However I still stand by my principle that moderators have never been democratically justified here by the PPRuNe Community.

Since when has the privately funded and run PPRuNe been democratic?

The great thing about owning something is that you can be autocratic, even by proxy!

If it was my BBS I would have binned idiots like 411A long ago. I cannot quite make up my mind whether he winds people up for the sake of it or he is just stupid. Although calling him stupid actually does an injustice to all the stupid people in the world.

[Captain Stable]

twistedenginestarter - there is no such thing on PPRuNe as democracy. You think Danny wants or needs your approval for anything he does? There is no such thing as free speech here. Moderators need no invitation from you or anyone else to get involved in any thread. They have been appointed by Danny to keep the boards running by and large the way Danny likes. And the way he likes has turned this board from a very small site into just about the biggest aviation forum on the whole of the internet.

You don't like it? Tough. Go somewhere else.

411A - It's well past time that you wound your neck in. If you want to rely on GPS when the US Government next decides to degrade the system performance for its own purposes, then be my guest. GPS has also been demonstrated to be subject to interference, which INS is not.

The original question was how Concorde navigates and why they don't replace the INS system by GPS, not whether you think it is a nice aircraft or not, nor whether you think that anything and everything American is better than anything and everything European.

[411A]

...and like many folks, M. Mouse just CANNOT stand the facts (don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!)...even when it hurts.
It just so happens that nearly ALL the bright ideas in aviation come out of the USA...and it pains others to admit same.
Concorde...and the Comet, RADAR, jet engines (carried on by GE) are an exception...even the Viscount.
Just look at the record. Europe will never catch up...and the UK lost the race long ago. Sad as well because many original ideas there....hello TSR-2?
Oh yes, forgot to add....for the "moderator". Roselawn and the ATR subject were raised by HugMonster in this thread, not me. I was only replying to same....the quaint old English phraise...."knickers in a twist" comes to mind with regard to your reply.

[18-Wheeler]

You'd HAVE to be joking, 411A.
The US is very much in the minority when it comes to inventing stuff for aviation.
First aerdynamic devices - Australian Aboriginal boomerang.
First kites - Chinese
First ballons - French
First First glider flights - German (correct me here if I'm wrong)
First powered controlled flight - New Zealand
First Atlantic crossing - English
First Pacific crossing - Australian
First jet engines - German
First man-made object into space - German
Flight Data Recorders - Australian
Distance Measuring Equipment - Australian
INS - Based on German research
Swept wings & wing wings also German
Ramjet invented by the French
Radial engine configuration is Australian
... and no doubt other stuff that I can't remember at the moment.

The US has contributed various things to aviation, but in the big scheme of things no more than it's fair share.

[Bellerophon]

411A

For someone who says many folks cannot stand facts, how odd that you should say, in relation to Concorde:

...if a little strip of tin causes BIG problems (as the French investigation indicates)...

Alas, if only it had been tin!

[McD]

Oh myyyyyyy ...... :rolleyes:

What started out as a gentle admonishment to 411a to please stick to the original topic of this thread has now degenerated into the subject of the state of my knickers, among other things! :o

I will not debate my administrative action on this thread. If you disagree with my particular "technique", then either e-mail me directly at [email protected] or write to Capt PPRuNe or PPRuNe Towers and make your complaints there.

Let's remember that allbore began this thread with a genuine interest regarding navigation equipment on Concorde. Banter, including harsh banter, is of course always welcome, but it does a complete disservice to allbore to take his thread completely off-topic. You (and "you" know who you are ... ) are perfectly capable of starting a "who is better" argument in a separate thread.

Could we now please return to the original subject?

[twistedenginestarter]

And the way he likes has turned this board from a very small site into just about the biggest aviation forum on the whole of the internet.


No He didn't.
WE DID

[Captain Stable]

<sigh>

You did? You put your own money into it, you spend almost all of your spare time answering emails about it, checking posts to make sure somebody isn't going to land you in the mire with some bunch of lawyers, you maintain the server, tweak the software, sell advertising space, and all the time try to keep your daytime job going? Wow. We owe you a vote of thanks.

OK - tell me - how would you like to change it? Please feel you have a free hand. Email me when you've done the changes and I'll come back and have a look. :rolleyes:

[sarcasm mode=OFF]
Ok, it's time to dry your eyes, put the toys back in the cot and accept the way things are. There is no "democracy" here. There is no "free speech" here. Moderators do not need your invitation or permission to moderate these boards however they see fit. If you don't like it, email Danny - [email protected] - and tell him so.

[twistedenginestarter]

We owe you a vote of thanks.

Sable

On behalf of the 49000 PPRuNe members right across the known world, especially the 400 participating at any giving moment, may I accept those kind words.

We couldn't of course have done it without all the hard work Danny, yourself, McD and many others have selflessly contributed.

We all look forward to many more years working together in continued harmony and mutual tolerance.

[twistedenginestarter]

In addition, it was mentioned that GPS cannot be used as primary navigation. Actually, it very definately CAN, at least with US registered aircraft.

411A

You may be right but I thought I had read a recent American (NASA or FAA or something) study that concluded GPS could not be used as a primary navigation aid in the forseeable future. Or perhaps what I'm trying to say is it can't be used exclusively. The main reason is that the accuracy varies according to where you are, and when you are there, versus the current satellite constellation. This means in some situations there is insufficient accuracy available to you. Also interference is still a risk.

I can't see how practically you can have a primary navigation system that means you can't take off for 4 hours while you wait for the right satellite configuration for all route sectors.

[Checkboard]

It was interesting reading, all that. Enough, though, I think.