Light plane crash in the Barossa Valley S.A.

[Desert Flower]

Two people have been killed in a plane crash at Krondorf, near Nuriootpa in the Barossa Valley.
Police say the plane came down on a property on Krondorf Road.
The two people on board died at the scene.

DF.

[VH-XXX]

Jesus, what a mess.


Photos below from here: http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/the-pulse-two-people-killed-in-plane-crash-at-krondorf-in-barossa-valley/story-fni6uo1m-1226944794032

Looks like a Tecnam P96 Golf, 24-4470.

http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6368141&nseq=79




https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BrA5yyyCUAEYDs6.jpg

[Ovation]

Probably not WX related, but today is a day to stay on the ground. Nearest TAF would be YPED....

EDINBURGH (YPED)
TAF YPED 252307Z 2600/2624
29014KT 9999 SHOWERS OF LIGHT RAIN BKN010
FM260100 32016KT 9999 SHOWERS OF LIGHT RAIN SCT025 SCT040
FM260800 34012KT 9999 SCT040
FM261400 35016G30KT 9999 SCT040
INTER 2600/2601 3000 SHOWERS OF MODERATE RAIN BKN008
INTER 2601/2606 5000 SHOWERS OF MODERATE RAIN BKN012
RMK
T 13 15 15 12 Q 1022 1021 1018 1017

SPECI YPED 260035Z AUTO 31013KT 9999 // SCT014 BKN020 14/11 Q1022
RMK RF00.0/000.0

[VH-XXX]

The aircraft is on the Lyndoch Sport Aviation Facebook page. It was hired for a big trip but unfortunately didn't make it.

[WAC]

A wing approx 1km from impact point....

[Desert Flower]

I have now been told who it belonged to, but the owner wasn't one of the POB.

DF.

[Arnold E]

A wing approx 1km from impact point....

Holy cr@p, thats bad.

[Old Akro]

I have now been told who it belonged to, but the owner wasn't one of the POB.

ABC News 24 says it was rented by the pilot from a nearby airstrip.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Comparing the elevation of Krondorf area, from Google Earth, approx. 800ft rising to over 1,800ft a little further East, with that TAF from YPED...

And the wing being found so far from the site.....

'VFR' flight into IMC....scudrunning.....?? Just Saying.....

Sad Event.

[Ultralights]

if scud running, would you still travel anotehr KM before impack after loosing a wing? my initial thoughts are graveyard spiral whil in IMC.

[VH-XXX]

The intended destination was Mildura. As I said earlier it was hired for the trip.

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2014/06/26/1226967/467326-03594ea8-fccf-11e3-b7fb-39adc31fbaaa.jpg

[Paul O'Rourke]

Looking at XXX's post it looks like the left wing is attached but missing the outer aileron section.??
Where are the flaps?

[Lookleft]

Very sad but the message about not continuing on into deteriorating weather is simply not being listened to.:ugh:

[VH-XXX]

The half wing was found some distance away between 300 and 1000 amongst trees. It eitehr lost it in flight or during initial impact prior to main impact. There is also talk of it having hit a tower.

Could well have been a failed prec-search.

[mostlytossas]

Never good to hear about a fellow aviators demise. It does appear to be, going on reports weather related either VFR into IMC or perhaps hit something due poor vis.
However the "Tool of the Month" award must go to a David Lindner who with nothing constructive to say,managed to get himself on most of the networks news bulletins where he advised us that he had flown that very aircraft only weeks ago and found nothing wrong with it.
Well that's just beut! Must have made the families feel just great.
I must remember next time I see a Commodore written off in a fatal to advise all and sundry via the media that I have driven one just like it without crashing too.:ugh:

[parabellum]

A Report on tonight's news said that a ground eye witness reported seeing the wings come off, possibly one wing and the flaps etc. from the other one?

[VH-XXX]

I was advised that the wing seperated along a rivet line several feet out from the fuselage. Witnesses would have been reporting seeing the wing outer section and flaps coming astray. Certainly a catastrophic structural failure caused potentially by the obvious.

[tecman]

Tossas, the gentleman in question won't be the first or the last to be caught off-guard by a comment made in shock to one journalist. In the fullest version of his comments I've seen reported, he was obviously responding to a question about how the aircraft handled etc. In the best tradition of lazy sensationalism, that bit got edited out while the throwaway line about having flown the aircraft last week was retained...and picked up repeatedly by other outlets. Not a great look, I'll grant. But I doubt he set out to have a silly observation plastered over the media.

A terrible tragedy, and not obvious what happened. Over-stressing during attempted recovery, or a collision during a precautionary landing (mentioned by XXX) look like the starting points, as most are noting. But a shocking time for recreational aviation recently.

[spinex]

Got it in one tecman, even experienced pollies get caught out on a regular basis. Frankly, the most intelligent use of a TV journo I've seen recently, was as a target for an esky full of water - Ch9 last night:}

Back to the incident though, that sort of scenario where an aircraft sheds vital bits whilst airborne is the sort of thing that visits at 3am, making you question whether one of those red handles in the cockpit might not be a good idea after all.

[mostlytossas]

Sorry I can't agree with the two above. If he had been an 18yr old still wet behind the ears allowances may be made, but he wasn't. My guess in his 50's so should have known better. But even if he was a kid what was he trying to achieve? Was he a witness to the tragedy who could shed some light on what happened? No, so other than..look at me I'm a pilot and flew that very aircraft, I can't see what his motive was. I am well aware that at scenes like this the media mingle around the onlookers trying to get someone go on air and say something. Anything will do as it all takes up news time.But they can't zoom in on you if you don't let it be known that you also have flown that aircraft and a pilot etc. What this clown did by saying what he did is imply that the pilot must have stuffed up because there was nothing wrong with the aircraft.
How do you think that made the families of the deceased feel. Not to mention there has not been an investigation into the cause yet.
Now probably the pilot did err and it is one thing to ponder the cause on here away from the general public,but quite another to say it on camera to all and sundry.
As a wise old saying goes...better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it and remove all doubt.

[VH-XXX]

The pilot was 44 mostlytosser.

Usually comments from first on the scene are the most correct. Then over time they degrade and are affected by what has been read and heard.

I was once first on the scene at a car crash when the driver who caused the crash said to me straight out that he was sleepy and missed the red.

By the time the cops came his brakes had allegedly failed.

By the time insurance companies got involved he was saying that the other car went through a red.

I was also a witness in a couple of court cases including a murder trial. It's amazing what details stay in your head but equally surprising what leaves over the year or two it takes to complete a trial.

[onetrack]

For those exact same reasons - if you're a witness to a major event that means your evidence will be required in any court or inquest - it pays to write down everything you've perceived you've witnessed, as soon as possible after the event.

Then the only problem is, whether you saw what you thought you saw.

A year or two after the event, all kinds of other memories intrude on your memory of the event, making many details fuzzy, or just outright wrong.

[spinex]

'tossas I'm guessing you haven't had the pleasure of dealing with the ladies and gentlemen (and I use the terms loosely) of the press. They aren't paid the big bucks because they don't have a good handle on human nature. All too easy to catch someone who is a little shocked and lend an apparently sympathetic ear. (I've mostly managed to avoid being made to say things I didn't want to thanks to some good training and genetic cussedness, but freely admit to being lead well astray by someone of the intelligence variety - and no she wasn't young and sultry, reminded me of a favourite aunt actually. Never say never.)

An unwarranted swipe at our bystander aside, geez but that Teccie has been reduced to kitform, some of the photos doing the rounds really are a little graphic. One of the newsites had a video clip showing a headset hanging off the tail by its cable, those poor blokes didn't have too long to consider their situation I wouldn't have thought.

Re the possible cable strike, sounds plausible deb, does anyone know any more - are there any along their course in the area?

[JandakotJoe]

The first on the scene at accidents like this are rarely official responders like police, ambos, firies, etc but civvies instead who are completely unprepared for a cat5ed airplane crashing in their midst. I feel sorry for these people who are scarred by what they find before the tarp is put down and sometimes quoted long before they've had time to think through the ramifications of what they might say.

I once arrived on a similar crash scene not long after the event and spoke to the fella who was first on the scene. A salt of the earth farmer but rocked to the core by the sight.

[Wally Mk2]

Nasty business this aviation game especially at that level. One has gotta feel for the families at this time having their private life plastered all over the newspapers & other media outlets inc here, ugly & very sad:sad:
'JJoe' is very correct there the first people on scene would be shocked for life.
There could be a few reasons as to why we find ourselves here chatting about this sad event, structural failure, WX related & another which I won't mention 'cause now is not the time but hopefully their deaths are not totally in vain.

I only hope these fellows didn't have time to scratch themselves b4 it was all over, a little comfort knowing that it was sudden for the families.



Wmk2

[Arnold E]

The thing that worries me about this accident, is the structural failure. Aircraft should sustain very substantial loads without falling apart. Yeah, Yeah I know there are limits but I am wondering about the light sport aircraft. I have seen damage on a Sportstar and a Carbon Cub that I would not have expected to see on an aircraft that was mistreated in the manner that they were. I see plenty of RV's that are mistreated by the same amount, yet dont even look like falling apart. Maybe I am expecting too much from light sport aircraft, Or maybe they need some restrictions on them that at this moment dont exist.Am I wrong, maybe, or even probably, but its what I think.:sad:
I might also add that production aircraft ( i.e your Cessna ) doesnt seem to be as delicate as the light sport.

[tecman]

I don't know about the Golf but its immediate successor, the P2002, comes in a fully EASA-certified version (the JF), with typical load certifications for 'normal' category use. Both designs are very classic all metal aircraft, with steel structure. The question about restrictions reminds me of the discussion about the Piper Mirages or the classical fork tailed doctor killers. Too soon to be looking at restrictions I'd say, unless it's in the area of more RA training. What other restriction could you sensibly apply?

That said, I have no idea of the qualifications of the pilot in this tragic accident.

Edit: +6, -3 G ultimate loading on the Golf. Similar, but bit less than, normal category C150 etc if my recollection of limit loads is correct, and using 50% upscale for ultimate load.

[Arnold E]

+6, -3 G ultimate loading on the Golf.

I would be somewhat sceptical at that, I think that may even be more than an RV

[Pinky the pilot]

Leaving aside the possible causes etc of this tragic event; I just wish to post that I have attended a few aviation crashes over the years and I have one firm, inviolable principle when it comes to members of the Media;

I say nothing to them! Ever!! If approached I simply walk off. If they persist I invite them, politely, to leave!

I recommend this to fellow PPruners.:ok:

[tecman]

You may be confusing flight limit and ultimate load. I happen to have a C150M manual on my desk at the moment. For the normal category the flight (not ultimate) load factors are +4.4, -1.76 while for the Aerobat they are +6, -3. For the P2002JF they are +3.8, -1.9 (all with no flap).

I would not be surprised at the Golf ultimate loading, since presumably Tecnam do satisfy EASA during the certification process of the 2002JF, a similar aircraft. I think there's also the obligatory feel-good wing loading picture somewhere.

[VH-XXX]

I wouldn't be the slightest bit concerned about the design, build and integrity of the airframe of these aircraft. It's all about where you point the nose really and what you run into, or don't. This aircraft has a solid and certified design heritage and is not made in someone's backyard in central NSW for example.

[Arnold E]

Mate, I dont know, but have you ever had a look at the structure of these things, how lightly they are built? I am not against the category as such, I am just saying maybe they need some control on the way they are used, you know, the same as every other aircraft on earth.

[Arnold E]

I wouldn't be the slightest bit concerned about the design, build and integrity of the airframe of these aircraft

Then why did the wing fall off? You dont see that happening every day with certified aircraft or RV's.

[tecman]

Arnold, from your earlier post you implied you'd never looked at a Tecnam. Far from perfect (what aircraft is?) but a classic, strong little aircraft. Just be aware that like all classes of aircraft there are considerable variations across a given category.

You're entitled to your view but, as I said earlier, apart from more RA pilot training, I can't think of any sensible restriction you could apply, the day VFR limit already applying (except to later P2002JFs, which are NVFR certified).

[Arnold E]

Arnold, from your earlier post you implied you'd never looked at a Tecnam.

True! As I have said I am not against the type/class of aircraft as such, but I have seen some damage and repairs conducted on this class of aircraft in recent times. I did, until recently hold an RA pilot certificate and did fly a Sport Cub until I saw very severe damage that I considered beyond what I considered should happen in normal use. I think you are right, I think pilot training on this type of aircraft is in order, but I think, maybe, some restrictions on use may be in order.

[VH-XXX]

I'm sure if you tried hard enough you could rip a wing off almost any standard aircraft. Like I said it's all about where you point the nose. I'm thinking Aero Commander severe turb north of Melbourne for example.

No limits on the aircraft should be imposed, just a greater emphasis in VFR into IMC.

[drunk_pilot]

Edit: +6, -3 G ultimate loading on the Golf. Similar, but bit less than, normal category C150 etc if my recollection of limit loads is correct, and using 50% upscale for ultimate load.

Bear in mind the effect of 'rolling G' too. If pulling back whilst rolling (such as a spiral dive), the outer wing will be experiencing a higher 'G' than the occupants in the cabin. This is why it's so important to level the wings before recovering from a nose-down upset.

I'm not suggesting that's what occurred here, just a consideration.

[Stanwell]

Pinky - re your post #29.
I was once a witness to an 'occurrence' and was asked by the press - "What happened?"
My response was measured and considered.
Guess what? The b@stards did a 'cut and paste' job on it. I learned my lesson for once and for good then.


Take note of Pinky's post, guys.

[Oakape]

Pinky - re your post #29.
I was once a witness to an 'occurrence' and was asked by the press - "What happened?"
My response was measured and considered.
Guess what? The b@stards did a 'cut and paste' job on it. I learned my lesson for once and for good then.


Take note of Pinky's post, guys.

I can second that. Don't talk to them - ever!

[Jack Ranga]

just a greater emphasis in VFR into IMC.

How much more of an emphasis needs to be placed on it?

[Runaway Gun]

As for not talking to the media, I can imagine your remarks here on Pprune might be picked up by them anyway.

"Professional pilots agree that…. {insert wacky theory here}…"

Be careful what you type too.

[Sunfish]

Arnold E, there is nothing "Fragile" about LSA or RAA aircraft under loaded conditions when airborn.

I too have seen three wrecked RAA type aircraft (sportstars) and in each case they were mishandled either on the ground or landing.

These aircraft have much less tolerance to mishandling on the ground in my opinion. That is the source of trouble. They have short little gear legs that require you to land flattish and they are light and respond quickly to gusts and crosswinds, so you need to be on your toes. The Sportstar also runs out of aileron a little too quickly at low speed as well, hence gravel rash on the wingtips and ailerons.

[VH-XXX]

A Sportstar is in no way comparable to a Tecnam, completely different breeds, chalk and cheese really.

I don't think short gear legs contributed to this crash although you could say it also ran out of aileron.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Firstly, matters Aero Commander, they are a special case, due the wing structure and the aerodynamics, if you note the several accidents in Australia, the wings have failed in downward bending, not related to G load.

Re. G loads in general, and the structural strengths referred to, these are static loads, not dynamic, and structural strength with "rolling G" reduce the G tolerance by something like 30%. In addition, the design standard for LSA ( and, as far as I know, JAR/VLA) does not include gust loading situations.

In short, your aeroplane may not be a strong as you think it is, regardless of the certification basis.

Tootle pip!!

[Dexta]

just a greater emphasis in VFR into IMC.

How much more of an emphasis needs to be placed on it?

Maybe a good start would be to stop printing articles in "Sports Pilot" (the RAAus mag) with the theme "I flew into clouds and it was alright, I didn't die" I.e the article "Banana Canyon" and a few others.

[KRviator]

Good to see I wasn't the only one disturbed about that article.

I do wonder if old mate got a bung for flying in cloud?

[Donwoody]

Well 42 years in Aviation and 20 years working in media I think I'm in a position to comment. While this accident is a very sad event all accidents are. There will always be accidents and there will always be news bulletins. You can chose to not talk to the media if you wish, but then you are probably the same people who complain when the media get their facts wrong like calling every aircraft accident a "Cessna." You can't have it both ways. There's nothing wrong with talking to the media as long as you're talking facts and not b_ _t. I post very rarely. I'm not say they get everything right but it annoys the hell out of me when people say "don't talk to the media" and then sit at home watching the news and reading the newspaper..... Hypocrites! Like I said.... YOU CANT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. Of course none of you have ever watched a 6pm news bulletin have you! Condolences to the families of these poor gentlemen.

[spinex]

Missed the potty that time Don..., I think you'll find the complaint was of being misquoted, statements edited so as to have another meaning or emphasis altogether.:ugh: On this occasion at least, the reports seemed to get the basics pretty much straight from the outset.

As for getting things wrong, just a little googling would avoid many of the clangers we see on a regular basis. I find it rather difficult to take any "news" or conclusions seriously if the basic facts are obviously wrong, picky I know but that's how it is.

[Arnold E]

I remember going to work that morning, and I would have pushed a Bonanza back into the hanger. Weather has been rubbish here in the last couple of weeks. Not a time to be flying a Light Sport aircraft

[Wally Mk2]

'spinex' I think yr reply to the 'Don' sums it up well to his perhaps somewhat misguided although well meaning beliefs/POV here.
I think it's pretty common knowledge that the journo profession isn't that well trusted especially when to comes to aviation matters, also they don't fair well in any top trusted professions lists either. There's a reason or reasons for that am sure which the scope of this thread shouldn't be used to 'investigate' for want of a better word:-)
When sensationalism is involved then the 'story' the true stroy can & usually does get distorted, human nature I guess to 'win'.

Hope they get to the bottom of this sad event & soon.



Wmk2

[tecman]

Now I can only assume you're setting out to be ironic, given the legendary status of the Bo for dispatching poorly skilled, or over-ambitious, pilots. The Cirrus these days attracts the same criticism. The reality of course is that both are very fine aircraft. If you're a VFR pilot in weather such as you're describing, push them all back in hangar: Bonanza, Cirrus and Tecnam. Your focus on the aircraft type remains irrational.

[Xray Tango]

Poor lady pilot (RA) has had bad luck with both lilydale's and coldstream's Tecnams letting her down. They have both required salvaging over recent times due to system failures,the most recent being at ytdn. Fortunately both her and her husband have walked away,,,,

[illusion]

Lots of talk here about wings that should or should not have come off.
The rules of life for crap weather are:

1. If you are not trained and current to perform a task in an aircraft eg instrument flying,

then don't :=

2. If the aircraft is not certified and correctly instrumented and serviceable for the task of crap weather including icing,

then don't :=

3. If you, on the day are not fully fit and up to the task,

then don't :=

If you cross any of the above, then there is a fair chance you don't get a chance to back peddle and fly another day

Two bobs worth from a bloke who has lost friends in contraptions from hang gliders to supersonic jets and things in between :( and nearly been cleaned up a few times myself...

[Jack Ranga]

Donwoody, you're in the media? You can't spell, your grammar is garbage and your sentence structure is crap. You don't post very often? You need to post less :ok:

[onetrack]

Donwoody, you're in the media? You can't spell, your grammar is garbage and your sentence structure is crapJack, that makes him highly qualified to be a journo, going by a lot of the badly-spelt, poorly-structured, and outright disconnected sentences, that I've seen written on news sites in recent times. I reckon half of todays journos failed English in their TEE, and they must have got their job through family connections. :(
I won't even go into how they can't even get basic descriptions of aircraft, vehicles, equipment, or machinery, right. They have vast amounts of referral sites and forums to gain the knowledge promptly so they can write with an acceptable degree of descriptive accuracy, I'm convinced they're just too lazy to do it.
Of course, the "shock", "horror", "screaming in fear", "perverted" and other important "key" words, designed to suck in the readership, are always ready to hand. :)

[gerry111]

"Jack Ranga",

Rather than pick on the rather coherent "Donwoody", perhaps you may instead direct your spelling and grammatical wrath towards "yr right"?

And possibly a few others of your choosing?

But as always, please be aware of what may be perceived by some others as simply attempted bullying...

And that's never a good look. :{

[Kharon]

Engage auto drift.

Spelt, also known as dinkel wheat

Misspellings may be due to either typing errors (e.g. the transposition error teh for the), or lack of knowledge of the correct spelling. Whether or not a word is misspelled may depend on context, as is the case with American / British English distinctions. Misspelling can also be a matter of opinion when variant spellings are accepted by some and not by others. For example "miniscule" (for "minuscule") is a misspelling to many,[7] and yet it is listed as an acceptable variant in some dictionaries.[8][9]

I wish I had a dollar for every missed word, spelling mistake and badly constructed sentence that I write – if I could get the same deal from Pprune posted errors, I'd never work again. Alas.

Drift off.

Looking at the photographs of this accident is distressing and I would like to know the what, why and how of it. We can't prevent this one now; but I wonder, had the 'old' version Crash Comic been around, could that have been instrumental is preventing this one. The ASD at this time of year would carry the Fog, Ice and VFR into IMC stories larded with dire warnings and do's and don'ts. Perhaps not a silver bullet, but perhaps enough to encourage the 'let's sit this one out' mind set.

Another 'interesting' thought bubble, worth sharing is that it has been many years since I've seen a series of cold fronts, followed by the hard, flat, winter Westerly winds we have experienced lately. Fronts were, years ago a regular monster, 'we' routinely ran the gauntlet and 'learned' to deal with the beast. As said it's been many years since I've seen a 'proper' front and it occurs to me that there must be a generation of pilots now with a great deal of experience dealing with the sloppy, slushy mess associated with 'troughs'; who have never had a dance with the lovely Ana or, her sister Kata. You can meet them both, on line – HERE (http://rammb.cira.colostate.edu/wmovl/vrl/tutorials/satmanu-eumetsat/satmanu/cms/cf/backgr.htm) -

My sincere condolences to the families and friends.

Stay safe you lot....

[Jack Ranga]

Ummm, Gerry, as a 'supposed' member of the press this person should know better when it comes to grammar & spelling etc. yr right is just taking the p!ss (it's not hard to work that out).

When it comes to bullying, none of my post constitutes that. It's a wonder that anybody learns anything today when criticism is taken as bullying :ugh:

[Wally Mk2]

Now now 'JR' you carnt be hipacritical all the time their buddy, ya gotta stop be a skool yard bully :E:E

This forum is like a children's playground, the rules are on the fence but does anybody really read them? Nope 'cause we are humans we are designed to be naughty, 'JR' is just an Eg & by all accounts (the playground police, the Mods) me too:E

I've not flown anything lighter than a C150 that was underpowered especially on a hot blustery day so am wondering just for the debate factor what these Tecnams etc are like when it comes to getting in say some serious downdrafts at low level.


Wmk2

[onetrack]

Kharon - As English is the language of constant refinement, and the language which also observes numerous acceptable variations in form, spelling, and other "rules"; I therefore wish to rest my case, as explained below, M'lud. :)

Spelled vs. spelt - Grammarist (http://grammarist.com/spelling/spelled-spelt/)

(P.S. - Thanks for the superb cold front analysis webpage link) :ok:

Wally - One can feasibly contend that any aircraft that falls into the RA category, and which is strictly limited to the mass of metal/composites thereby contained in the airframe, is going to be fragile at best, and unable to cope with extreme conditions.
Those aircraft known to be "bulletproof" are never found in RA categories.

Then there's the blokes who just don't understand, via a dutiful study of meteorological conditions, when it's time to push the aircraft back into the hangar. If there's one category where this is particularly applicable, it has to be the RA category of aircraft.

I think these people have an innate belief that once in the air, they're above what the mere mortals on the ground have to put up with, in regard to weather extremes and weather violence.
Anyone with proper understanding of weather factors in aviation understands that's not so - particularly with the vast number of aviation accident records, that outline particularly adverse weather as a major factor in the accident.

I am of the firm opinion, that with the apparent increase in RA serious incidents, that increased easy access to the RA reports on the reasons behind the accidents, would greatly assist in increased education of RA pilots, and a possible reduction in the numbers of RA accidents.
As it stands now, the number of RA accidents that are just shrugged off, or the results of the investigation report, merely buried in some inaccessible section of RA-Aus files, seems to be counter-intuitive.

[Jack Ranga]

And they could start by having an independant body investigating their accidents. Sending two 'expert RA-AUS accident investigators' to investigate is ridiculous :ugh:

[Deaf]

Maybe something like BASI - and they could also do VH stuff as well to provide credible reports.

See assorted comments in many threads on the state of investiations in Australia.

[tecman]

Wal, on the performance question, many of these aircraft are noticeably more sprightly than a C150, for example. There's no magic - it's largely just down to being 2/3 the weight with the same power as the 150, although some of the better makers invoke a few worthwhile tricks. Generally it's all a pleasant surprise, although depending on whether you've grown up in the GA world or the RA world, slightly different cautions apply. For example, as a long-time GA person, I still remind myself about how much the performance of my VLA varies with what look like relatively simple load variations. There's nothing new of course, just something to be aware of.

Onetrack, while I think you're being hard on your assessment of the LSA class since a number of the better products extend into certified aircraft territory, I agree entirely with your assessment of the RA training and accident reporting situation. There have been many requests for the reports and statistics to be available publicly but they have foundered, I understand, on the obstacle of RA Aus and individual liability. This may be valid legally but the reality is that the present system is simply indefensible from the safety viewpoint and, maybe as part of the current shake-up between RA Aus and CASA on a number of fronts, an open reporting system and database could be implemented - by CASA, if necessary. We simply can't go on with a situation in which individuals are unable to inspect freely the RA incident reports and statistics.

The point about lazy journalists and sensationalism of course brings to mind the old story generator:

The Lazy Journalists Plane Story Generator (http://www.radans.net/jens/planestory.html)

[Wally Mk2]

Thanks 'tecy' I am aware of the power V the weight of these 'toy' panes:) I just wanted to know what they where like say compared to the C150, the steed a lot of us oldies started out on when the Tecnam was just an idea in someones head:-)
Sometimes you see a seriously bent C150 & the driver/s got out albeit damaged themselves probably due a fair size 'crumple zone' where it all folds up around you but these 'toy' planes often yield very sad results, that's just a general observation & may not have any direct bearing on the subject matter here.
I wouldn't mind trying or having a go at something like the Tecnam before I drop off the perch but being quite a lot older than when I started I am far more reserved these days & rarely fly a SE of any denomination:-) reading the incidents like this one makes me think twice.

Wmk2

[VH-XXX]

I'll happily take you up Wally in a light single any time you want.... Will even pick you up from a proper airport like Essendon just like a real plane.

[Kharon]

1T #60 "I therefore wish to rest my case, as explained below, M'lud."

LOL, glad you got it. Silly ain't it this home spun 'editing' blog posts. – Big smile,

Back in the day, I was fortunate in that I always enjoyed meteorology, the UK ATPL Met. course was one of the most informative and useful ever attended; and exams are easy to pass when you learn, and learn to understand the subject.

I have noticed over the last years a trend, if you will, toward learning simply to 'pass' an exam rather than 'studying' the subject. Freely, I admit to dozing off during electrics, hydraulics bore me rigid and lets just not talk about 'radio' and sure, I always reckoned any score over a pass on that type of subject was wasted drinking time. But the basic subjects, like Met need to be 'properly' understood, it's not a subject to be left behind on the ground after licensing. I mean so that from reading a synoptic, area forecast and TAF a 'picture' of what may be expected can be made. The Met. briefing officers were great at doing this, probably still are if you could 'have a yarn'. Even so, the rudimentary aspects must be understood and used, everyday as tools of trade. I notice these days the 'kids' can translate the 'legal' requirement of a forecast much faster than I can; but, when I quiz them about what they may experience, say during an approach, (terrain effects, wind shadows, inversions etc. etc.) then the eyes glaze over. I know, this ramble is a little esoteric for Sunday but I look at the MSL chart for the accident day, the Met. data provided earlier, the track and terrain and a clear message along with a picture forms in my minds eye.

Disclaimer: not saying these guys didn't 'properly' consider the weather; or the aircraft was at fault; or blaming anyone or anything at this stage. Just saying; the effect of a weather pattern can be a real, often forgotten factor, in the game we all play under Murphy's rules.

[tecman]

Wal, I've read of your SE trepidation and who am I to try and change your mind? :). For what it's worth, I also learned to fly in a C150 and have hundreds of hours on them, mainly in the bush. I think they are a great aircraft but I prefer P2002JF nowadays for my light-iron perambulations.

One of the sad parts of the SA accident was the apparent full-on nose impact. Ironically, the Tecnams with their classic steel structure and good roll bar do have better occupant protection than many LSAs, something which I took into account when looking for a VLA/LSA to fly. But I'm not sure anything would work with the type of impact that seems to have been sustained.

[spinex]

I think you may have a point about the relative crashability of the C150 vs a typical LSA, WMk11, although it is a matter of degree only, the average sub compact car makes all light aircraft look like dinosaurs in that regard.

As far as a flying machine goes, there is little comparison, I converted onto a Tecnam Golf from a GA background (PA-28 to C208) and it feels like a sports car compared even to the smallest GA trainer, a thoroughly nice little fun flyer with well harmonised controls. As pointed out above, there are a few traps for the ham fisted, the nose gear is more fragile than you may be used to and pax plus fuel make up a significant proportion of the all up weight with a consequent impact on performance, but a good 'un for all that.

Whilst I agree that the RA Aus accident reporting leaves a lot to be desired, there are some serious rose tinted glasses in use if you think GA is much better. Go have a look at the VH-JGR report (C-172 near Beaudesert about 2 yrs ago) and see whether our esteemed ATSB add any value, when they even bother to investigate GA accidents.

[Wally Mk2]

'KH' I agree re the Met subject, that's still a guess mostly as against the other more scientific subjects IE Hyd's Elect etc.

That's one subject that is the same right from the very first day you pick up a basic Met book to the ATPL MET exam, fog is fog, rain is rain TS's are TS's, clouds are clouds as is turbulence etc etc & all make no distinction as to what level of drivers license you hold.

'XXX' you want me to fly out of EN in SE plane over all those houses? Are you insane? I did that for more years than I can recall, I ain't gunna be that dumb again buddy but tnxs for the offer:ok::E!


Wmk2

[Xray Tango]

I was just wondering,,,,what makes an RA employed person an investigation expert ??

[VH-XXX]

Good question XT and I used to ask the same question until I heard that through some funding, some RAA employees were put through an accident investigation course... But that was a while ago and a few have left since so who knows....

That aside there are some CFI / L2's out there perfectly capable of a detailed and professional analysis.

[Jack Ranga]

wally, before you get into triple x's plane make sure it hasn't got a jab engine in it!!

[VH-XXX]

Don't worry Wal with any luck we should be at 500ft+ by the end of the runway at Essendon so should easily turn back should my fine example of Aussie aeronautical excellence fail us.

[Xray Tango]

I've actually inspected "Jacks" Aussie built excellence,,pretty dam good I may add !!! Just wondering what "Aussie Built Excellence" Mr XXX has in his hangar ?

[Ultralights]

Those aircraft known to be "bulletproof" are never found in RA categories.


Actually, i would put the Jabiru airframe firmly in the bullet-proof category. those things are unbreakable, seen them flown into forests, shipping containers, and thrown at numerous runways breaking the wheel off them, and they all end up back in the air in short time. as for the reasons they land in trees/shipping containers/ditches etc, is another story entirely.

[Arnold E]

we should be at 500ft+ by the end of the runway

180 degree turn at 500', makes me shudder to think of it.:eek:

[Ultralights]

nothing wrong with that, as long as you keep it balanced...

[Wally Mk2]

'3xxx' I don't like the way you put that buddy "with any luck":)
There's two words that are not to be used in the same sentence when talking about aviation, they are luck & should, flying isn't about 'luck' & the word should just doesn't sound right when used in a sentence like 'we should clear those trees' or in yr case 'xxx' we should be able to land off a turn back....ohhh ahhhh scary thought:):)

'Ultra' I think 'JR' was referring to the jab donk not so much the airframe if indeed that's what yr kinda alluding to there:)

I know we are all getting away from the original thread but that's usually the case after a while anyway 'cause I mean how much can we speculate here until the report comes out? For now two men lost their lives in what probably was a serviceable airframe by all accounts, lets hope we can learn from it whatever it is that ended the lives of two hapless aviators.

Wmk2

[Arnold E]

nothing wrong with that, as long as you keep it balanced...

Crikey, training has changed in the last 30 years, maybe what I said about restrictions on LSA's has some legs. Maybe.

[VH-XXX]

For the sake of Wally et al, of course a turn back should not be attempted at those kind of altitudes and 500ft was thrown in as a light-hearted comment.

That being said to Wally's point about not wanting to fly singles and for that matter out of Essendon, that is a fair and valid call. When the noise stops in a single at Essendon at 500ft at the end of the runway I'm guessing the majority of pilots will try a turn back or similar life ending maneuver because unfortunately there are very few options available I'm afraid. It's been a couple of years since I've been in there however with all of these Essendon Fields type developments there isn't many fields left to turn back to.

Good point XT as technically Jacks is "Aussie built" of built-by-an-Aussie means that.

[VH-XXX]

Any engineering experts out there?

I've been doing some reading and looking at the pictures from the news. I can't find the tie-down lug in the parts catalogue which would show us which rivet line go, however it looks like it's where the fuel tank ends as that's the only rivet join. This is where the doubler ends.

Thoughts?

From the Tecnam parts catalogue:

http://www.ultraleicht.de/tecnam/PDF/sparesP2002.pdf

http://members.iinet.net.au/~bc_j400/wing1.jpg

http://members.iinet.net.au/~bc_j400/wing3.jpg

http://members.iinet.net.au/~bc_j400/wing7.jpg

http://members.iinet.net.au/~bc_j400/wing5.jpg

http://members.iinet.net.au/~bc_j400/wing6.jpg

[crezzi]

The manual you linked to is for the P2002 Sierra - the crashed plane was a P96 Golf

[VH-XXX]

Thanks Crezzi, you are correct and I should have mentioned that. I was advised that the construction method is essentially the same in terms of the doublers but with different leading edge. If that's wrong and you or someone knows the location of the G model diagrams, please feel free to post.

[Ndegi]

Interesting that some Pprune members are putting down aircraft with a lower MTOW. There are good early Piper examples around the 600 KG sharing the same chromoly steel cage around the cockpit area as the Tecnam. Cessna had the 120/140 around this MTOW, before building C150/C152's which got heavier and heavier.

According to the factory website, the designer of the Tecnam (and the P68 Partenavia) built his first aircraft back in 1948 and for many years produced a 172 look alike that was the main trainer in Italian aero clubs. (A model currently being revived by Vulcanair). Perhaps he and his design team have the credentials to build safe, strong 600kg LSA's as well as design and build the 11-seat twin to replace the C402 and Chieftan that is currently happening.

Some simple googling revealed the following 'serious' GA aircraft having in-flight failures.

On 7 December 2011, the owner-pilot of a Cessna 210M, registered VH-WBZ, was conducting a private flight under the visual flight rules from Roma to Dysart in Queensland. Thunderstorms with associated cloud, rain and severe turbulence were forecast for the area. About 30 minutes into the flight the outer sections of the wings and parts of the tail separated. The aircraft collided with terrain, fatally injuring the pilot.

Beech F33A Bonanza

A/C SUSTAINED INFLIGHT BREAK-UP DUE POSITIVE "G" OVERLOAD. 4 FATALITIES.
INVESTIGATION BY THE FRENCH AUTHORITIES CONCLUDED THAT THE ACCIDENT WAS THE RESULT OF A LOSS OF CONTROL OF THE A/C IN IMC FLIGHT. THE LOSS OF CONTROL RESULTED IN BREAK UP OF THE A/C WHICH TOOK PLACE ABOVE 1000 METRES IN CLOUD. FAILURE OF THE A/C'S WINGS RESULTED FROM EXCEEDANCE OF THE MAXIMUM PERMITTED "G" LIMITATIONS. ATTRIBUTED FACTORS WERE, INSUFFICIENT FLIGHT PREPARATION, PILOT INEXPERIENCE PARTICULARLY IN INSTRUMENT FLYING CONDITIONS, FLIGHT IN TURBULENCE & ICING, A/C WEIGHT & C OF G OUTSIDE ENVELOPE. SEE FRENCH BUREAU ENQUETES-ACCIDENTS REPORT NR 28370 ISSN NR 1148-4292, DATED MAY 1992. CAA CLOSURE-ACCIDENT PUBLICISED IN GASIL 12/92. NO FURTHER CAA ACTION APPROPRIATE.


Piper PA-28R-200 Cherokee Arrow II

OUTER TWO-THIRDS OF RIGHT WING SEPARATED IN FLIGHT. PILOT KILLED.
PILOT (SOLE OCCUPANT) REPORTED OVERHEAD ARUNDEL AT 2000FT VMC. SHORTLY AFTERWARDS, WITNESSES SAW A/C EMERGE FROM CLOUD MINUS RH WING. CAA CLOSURE: PILOT HELD NEITHER IMC NOR INSTRUMENT RATINGS. WX CONDITIONS AT TIME HAD CLOUD FROM 700FT TO ABOVE 2400 FT. ACCIDENT BELIEVED DUE TO PILOT BECOMING DISORIENTATED IN IMC AND IMPOSING EXCESSIVE CONTROL INPUTS DURING ATTEMPTS TO CONTROL AIRCRAFT. THE RIGHT HAND WING HAD FAILED THROUGH OVERSTRESSING DUE TO AN EXCESSIVE UP-LOAD.

A large number of our tragedies are as a result of poor pilot decision making. There needs to be greater emphasis on education and the setting of student pilot personal standards by flight instructors and their training organisations. We all have a roll as mentors when we see potential for a low hour pilot to get into trouble, but we don't, do we?

[Arnold E]

Interesting that some PPRuNe members are putting down aircraft with a lower MTOW.
I dont know that people are putting down aircraft with very low MTOW. What I am saying is that they should, maybe treated differently, this may involve different training, or some sort of restriction on use.
I have flown LSA aircraft and enjoyed it, but I would be now more careful about when and where I fly them based on what I have seen in the way of damage and how it was inflicted on the particular aircraft

[Aussie Bob]

I dont know that people are putting down aircraft with very low MTOW. What I am saying is that they should, maybe treated differently, this may involve different training, or some sort of restriction on use.

Arnold, they already are being treated differently, they are administered by the RAA and endorsements cover the whole gamut; low speed, nose wheel, tail wheel, high performance, low performance etc. with training required for each and every endorsement. The restriction is day VFR OCTA (without PPL), how much more restricted do you want?

While some of the actual training may leave a bit to be desired, the training program is in place. The RAA pilots I come across regularly are mostly careful fair weather pilots who retire to the hanger long before their GA compatriots.

[LeadSled]

---- & all make no distinction as to what level of drivers license you hold.Wally,
Ain't that the truth!!
Tootle pip!!

PS:
The UK Met. Office "Handbook of Aviation Meteorology" must be a good book, I have had two nicked by students.
PS2;
One day at Evans Head, observed a Jab stall and "spin" in turning final. The major injuries suffered by the pilot were scratches to her legs from walking through the gorse scrub back to the airfield. When we retrieved the aircraft on the back of a good old Landcruiser flatbed, the damage was a broken prop, nose leg and one U/C main leg, there was no deformation of the cockpit. I was absolutely amazed, as I knew little about Jabiru at the time.

[Arnold E]

Arnold, they already are being treated differently, they are administered by the RAA and endorsements cover the whole gamut; low speed, nose wheel, tail wheel, high performance, low performance etc. with training required for each and every endorsement. The restriction is day VFR OCTA (without PPL), how much more restricted do you want?

Yeah, good points, looks like I am just plain wrong.:O

[tecman]

Good summary, Bob.

XXX, the Golf parts catalog is available at the same site you visited:

http://www.ultraleicht.de/tecnam/PDF/sparesP96_GOLF.pdf

I'm not an aero or structural engineer but it looks as though the failure line is outboard of the doubler you point to. Just counting back the rivet lines from the tip, and noting the amount of aileron showing.

Maybe not much ultimately relevant in the structural analysis of what's clearly a pretty reasonable airframe, given all the other more pertinent points of weather and possible loss of control scenarios raised. Until you know it was definitely failure under load as opposed to e.g. collision with a wire or structure, it's all pretty speculative.

[VH-XXX]

An RAA board member has reported publically that the airframe suffered a structural failure.

[Pinky the pilot]

How did Mac Job finish some reports in the old Aviation Safety Digest?

I seem to remember it went something like........`The VFR rated Pilot continued flight into conditions that were not suitable for VMC and suffered a subsequent loss of control in IMC conditions.`

I know I`m flogging a dead horse though, re the old ASD:sad:

[gerry111]

Pinky,

You'll remember that the Barossa Valley Gliding Club's old clubhouse at Stonefield always had those excellent 'Aviation Safety Digests'. I used to read them too. And I also learned a lot as well from an early age.

(One of those very useful lessons being learning the phonetic alphabet when I was about 13.)

Thread drift, yes I know.. But the current CAsA regime doing away with their previous inferior paper offering is a bit sad. And for a financial saving of just how much? :hmm:

Cheers, mate.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hey Pinks,

If it walks like a duck.......sometimes, someone just has to say what it looks like..

Cheers

But a very sad event all the same.

[LeadSled]

--- this may involve different trainingFolks,
In my view (many years an instructor, CFI etc, both in UK and AU) one of the serious issues with flying training in Australia is students are taught to fly a type, rather than being taught how to fly aeroplanes.
A properly trained pilot should be able to adapt to the minor differences between types, particularly if you started on a taildrager.
Recently, a young chap I know, who seems to be at least an average competent pilot (he has a CPL) wanted to do a taildrager endorsement, he was quoted ten hours for the endorsement --- if you take that long to be checked out, maybe you shouldn't be flying at all.
Or maybe a particular training organisation ripping customers off ??
Tootle pip!!

[Aussie Bob]

I agree Leadsled. One of my favourite things is to "self endorse" on a new type. That is; study the book and have a go on my own. Its been possible with singles for a long time, it should be possible with twins if the new leg ever gets in.

[spinex]

Leadsled, I (mostly) agree with part one of your statement and have frequently had my say about the odd RA instructor insisting that they haven't ever signed off anyone in less than 10 hours:8.

As to the taildragon, I trained on C150/2's and have flown a reasonable range of singles including RA types, but after my minor exposure to conventional gear (Drifter and Cub) I certainly wouldn't take it amiss if someone told me it was going to take that long to get signed off, there is a whole range of finer skills there that just aren't required to land a tricycle on a long, wide runway and that now need to be developed. I'd expect though that a fair portion of that time would be solo circuits with an instructor ever ready to call "oi, stay on the ground and let's talk about that last one"

[Aussie Bob]

An RAA board member has reported publically that the airframe suffered a structural failure

And the cause was???

All very well to open your mouth but a statement such as that perhaps needs additional information.

[VH-XXX]

And the cause was???


They don't know the cause, they are investigating that part.

I would say that if it had hit a pole or something that would have been mentioned. It appears to be a given that it broke up in flight, however nobody knows exactly why. We are all assuming that it was due to catastrophic forces/ IMC etc, however for all we know the wing might have been repaired prior... it's anyone's guess.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

The only misgiving I have about a lot of VLAs is their ability to cruise faster than Vno. Structural failure suggests this could be the first point of investigation. Clag is one thing, speed in turbulence can be a real killer.

[Brian Abraham]

I wouldn't place too much on the point of where the wing failed, all things considered. In the following both wings failed outboard as a result of too much "g". Manufacturers comment "that's where we would expect them to fail, and at that "g" load".

Partinavia P68 airshow crash - YouTube

[Pinky the pilot]

G`day gerry111; Yes, I remember the assortment of Aviation magazines there over the years including the old ASD. Sadly, as the years went by they all disappeared. Cheers.:ok:

If it walks like a duck.......sometimes, someone just has to say what it looks like..

I`m somewhat surprised Griffo, that no-one else seems to either think that way. To me it`s about as obvious as a (insert the cliche of your choice.):}

[Desert Flower]

Channel 10 news a while ago said that preliminary investigations have found unapproved parts in wing mod & required inspection not carried out.

DF.